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Sharkonwheels
March 1st, 2008, 03:09 PM
OK - got an Acer P75, DOS 6.22
Machine has a CompatiCard IV installed...
Got the DBit FDAdap installed (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html)
Got an Altos 8000 with dual Shugart 801's in it. Unplugged the cable from the mainboard, and onto the FDADAP board...
Ran a 34-pin cable from the CompatiCard IV, to the FDADAP board...
Powered the FDADAP board from the Acer side (4-pin 3.5" FDD power plug)
Configured CompatiCard's CC4drive.SYS to see 8" on A: and B: (/A0,4 /A1,4)

Everything says "Not Ready" error.... TD, IMD, DOS Format...
I can see the LED come on, and it TRIES to do it....

Any ideas?

T

MikeS
March 1st, 2008, 05:14 PM
OK - got an Acer P75, DOS 6.22
Machine has a CompatiCard IV installed...
Got the DBit FDAdap installed (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html)
Got an Altos 8000 with dual Shugart 801's in it. Unplugged the cable from the mainboard, and onto the FDADAP board...
Ran a 34-pin cable from the CompatiCard IV, to the FDADAP board...
Powered the FDADAP board from the Acer side (4-pin 3.5" FDD power plug)
Configured CompatiCard's CC4drive.SYS to see 8" on A: and B: (/A0,4 /A1,4)

Everything says "Not Ready" error.... TD, IMD, DOS Format...
I can see the LED come on, and it TRIES to do it....

Any ideas?

T
---
I'm not familiar with the FDADAP card, but one of the more common issues is pin 34; have you tried grounding it when the LED comes on?

I assume that the FDADAP or Compaticard drivers handle this issue; are you loading their drivers?

m

m

Sharkonwheels
March 1st, 2008, 06:38 PM
FDADAP is just a wiring adapter.
I am loading the CompatiCard drivers, and specifying 8"
I also tried with an Adaptec 1542B, same result.

Just tried grounding CompatiCard Pin 34 - nada. Same thing.

I can see on the FDADAP, pin 34 on the PC side, is routed to pin 12 on the 8" side, 12 on the SA801 is DC
T

MikeS
March 1st, 2008, 11:54 PM
FDADAP is just a wiring adapter.
I am loading the CompatiCard drivers, and specifying 8"
I also tried with an Adaptec 1542B, same result.

Just tried grounding CompatiCard Pin 34 - nada. Same thing.

I can see on the FDADAP, pin 34 on the PC side, is routed to pin 12 on the 8" side, 12 on the SA801 is DC
T
-------
Ah, OK; the software's just for DEC stuff. Don't know what else to suggest; may be time to get out that scope or at least a VOM and check some signals. Getting any index pulses? Using the right diskettes? Ready and/or DC signal?

8" drives can be a *lot* of fun! Enjoy; you won't be the first to spend a day or two!
;-)

m

Sharkonwheels
March 1st, 2008, 11:57 PM
DEC stuff? Whatcha' talkin; about?

Got a scope - not that I know how to use it, though (TEK 2235)

T

Sharkonwheels
March 3rd, 2008, 08:10 PM
OK - attempt 2,176 in a few days....gotta locate some SS/DD media.

Apparently, the physical media is different, as in index hole location.
Note to self: don;t be stupid.

A DS/DD 8" drive can use SS/DD or DS/DD media.
A SS/DD 8" drive can only use SS/DD media

I thought it was like 5.25", where a SS/DD can use standard DS/DD media, like I do with Osborne, Kayro II, etc..
But, apparently the index holes on the 2 types are different.

Kelly! Yo! Help a brutha' out!


T

MikeS
March 3rd, 2008, 08:38 PM
OK - attempt 2,176 in a few days....gotta locate some SS/DD media.

Apparently, the physical media is different, as in index hole location.
Note to self: don;t be stupid.

A DS/DD 8" drive can use SS/DD or DS/DD media.
A SS/DD 8" drive can only use SS/DD media

I thought it was like 5.25", where a SS/DD can use standard DS/DD media, like I do with Osborne, Kayro II, etc..
But, apparently the index holes on the 2 types are different.

Kelly! Yo! Help a brutha' out!
T
----
Umm, yes, that's why I asked you twice and mentioned (off-list) that they're not compatible...

m

Sharkonwheels
March 3rd, 2008, 09:06 PM
hey, ya know, some of us are thick...

I found *ONE* lone SS disk in the garage....a TRS-80 Model 16B Multiplan disk.

Imaged it first, of course....

Reads/writes on both drives, but I can;t get the ACS8000 to boot.
But, that's for another day - the beyotches are working....sorta'..

Well, I imaged out, then imaged in, used debug to examine the read-back-in image. No errors reading or writing to the drive under IMD.

Debug confirms it is a Digital Research CP/M disk...

Well, another day...mebbe tomorrow I'll tackle that...

Mike - got any SS media fer sale? I have like *SIX* freaking boxes of NIB DS/DD media....and *ONE* disk of SS!!!


T

chuckcmagee
March 4th, 2008, 12:24 AM
Oh, thank you, thank you, TONY! I feel great knowing I did NOT break down and buy anything to do with 8" drives/disks. Finding hard sectored 5.25" disks was enough trouble for this lifetime. I already go crazy trying to keep my Apple/Commodore/Amiga/PC/Northstar disks separated from each other.

Yzzerdd
March 4th, 2008, 04:59 AM
I thought it was like 5.25", where a SS/DD can use standard DS/DD media, like I do with Osborne, Kayro II, etc..


How do you do that on thr Kaypro? I can never convince mine to do that with DS/DD media. I can't do anything with my Kaypro anyway, seems my A: drive needs some major cleaning. And of course, I can't run any of my programs without copying the disk, except CP/M. I can't figure out the disk flipping thing with my IIc either. Do I need to get a disk notcher?

--Ryan

MikeS
March 4th, 2008, 05:39 AM
hey, ya know, some of us are thick...

I found *ONE* lone SS disk in the garage....a TRS-80 Model 16B Multiplan disk.

Imaged it first, of course....

Reads/writes on both drives, but I can;t get the ACS8000 to boot.
But, that's for another day - the beyotches are working....sorta'..

Well, I imaged out, then imaged in, used debug to examine the read-back-in image. No errors reading or writing to the drive under IMD.

Debug confirms it is a Digital Research CP/M disk...

Well, another day...mebbe tomorrow I'll tackle that...

Mike - got any SS media fer sale? I have like *SIX* freaking boxes of NIB DS/DD media....and *ONE* disk of SS!!!

T
--
Sorry, no, same here; a couple hundred DS disks and probably one or two SS. Athana still sells 'em AFAIK.

Happy to hear you found the problem though; 8" drives can be, umm, challenging. I should have been clearer, but I assumed you were trying to image disks from the same machine.

Best of luck getting it booted.

m

Dwight Elvey
March 4th, 2008, 05:53 AM
Hi
I just use a hole punch. I do put a piec of thick paper between the
envelope and the disk before sliding the punch in. You need to
protect the disk surface from bending or scratching by the punch.
Dwight

Terry Yager
March 4th, 2008, 06:13 AM
How do you do that on thr Kaypro? I can never convince mine to do that with DS/DD media. I can't do anything with my Kaypro anyway, seems my A: drive needs some major cleaning. And of course, I can't run any of my programs without copying the disk, except CP/M. I can't figure out the disk flipping thing with my IIc either. Do I need to get a disk notcher?

--Ryan

A single-sided drive has no way of detecting the sidedness of the media, since it's only capable of seeing the one side, so it should work. I'm assuming, therefore, that you have a double-sided model, which is choking on DS media for some reason. Can't help much with that, too many possibilities to go thru 'em all.

Insufficient data...need input...input...

/Johnny Five mode

--T

kb2syd
March 4th, 2008, 06:25 AM
A single-sided drive has no way of detecting the sidedness of the media
--T

I thought the SS drive had an index sensor, but only where it expected the index hole for the SS media.

I also thought the DS drives had 2 index sensors, one for SS, one for DS.

I'll be mailing out 2 boxes of SS media tomorrow for Tony.

Sharkonwheels
March 4th, 2008, 08:00 AM
A notcher will work on a II-series, and CBM's - NOT on most CP/M machines, though.

T

carlsson
March 4th, 2008, 08:52 AM
For those single sided systems that rely on the index hole, wouldn't it be possible to notch another hole in the floppy after careful measurement? I think one can line up the index hole, use a ruler and make two marks on the hub ring. Then rotate the disc so the marks line up with the opening for an index hole and somehow punch a hole through the media. It is a bit more complex than making a R/W notch. Fortunately I have never owned any computer that checks for the index hole. I haven't looked up how Atari 810/1050 does, but I think their floppies are just as flippable as Commodore's etc.

But yes, Athana advertises they still sell (manufacture?) 8" SSSD, SSDD and DSDD floppy disks.

MikeS
March 4th, 2008, 03:48 PM
For those single sided systems that rely on the index hole, wouldn't it be possible to notch another hole in the floppy after careful measurement? I think one can line up the index hole, use a ruler and make two marks on the hub ring. Then rotate the disc so the marks line up with the opening for an index hole and somehow punch a hole through the media. It is a bit more complex than making a R/W notch. Fortunately I have never owned any computer that checks for the index hole. I haven't looked up how Atari 810/1050 does, but I think their floppies are just as flippable as Commodore's etc.

But yes, Athana advertises they still sell (manufacture?) 8" SSSD, SSDD and DSDD floppy disks.
-------
Sounds like there's a little confusion here about index & WP holes (SS 8" disks have the index closer to the centre line than DD disks; not the same issue as "flipping" 5 1/4 disks in systems that don't use the index holes). Dwight has the right idea; carefully punch holes in the proper place in the disk envelope. As a matter of fact, some DS disks had both sets of holes and you covered the unused one with a sticker similar to the WP notch (which, incidentally, functions the opposite way on 8" disks - cover to UNprotect).

mike

Sharkonwheels
March 4th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Well, I GUESS if you can line up a puncher good enough, you can make another index hole...

I was answering the question about the II's and such, which I don;t think used the index holes. The were SS drives, so you make another notch on the side (WP notch) to alllow writing, and you just flip it over and write on the other side.


T

MikeS
March 4th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Well, I GUESS if you can line up a puncher good enough, you can make another index hole...

I was answering the question about the II's and such, which I don;t think used the index holes. The were SS drives, so you make another notch on the side (WP notch) to alllow writing, and you just flip it over and write on the other side.

T
-------
Well, it's not really that critical since the hole in the envelope can be much larger than the index hole in the disk, which is the one that matters (you don't touch the media itself, just the envelope). Heck, if Andrew can take a soft-sectored 5" floppy and add the holes in the *disk itself* to make it hard-sectored, it's a snap by comparison ;-)

I knew what you were talking about (even still have my notching punch for my Commodore disks), but it sounded like we were talking about two different things, a "notcher" as opposed to a hole punch. I was going to post a picture of a dual-mode 8" disk showing the two holes, but my CF card reader seems to have died.

m

MikeS
March 4th, 2008, 05:36 PM
A single-sided drive has no way of detecting the sidedness of the media, since it's only capable of seeing the one side, so it should work. I'm assuming, therefore, that you have a double-sided model, which is choking on DS media for some reason. Can't help much with that, too many possibilities to go thru 'em all.

Insufficient data...need input...input...

/Johnny Five mode

--T
---------
Actually, that's the point; 8" drives CAN detect the sidedness of the media because the index holes are in different locations in the disk envelope. As happened to Tony, a DS disk in a SS drive will not issue any index pulses because the hole in the envelope does not line up with the LED and sensor, while a DS drive has two LED/sensor sets and which one sees light pulses when the disk is spinning tells the drive what kind of disk is in it.

mike

Sharkonwheels
March 4th, 2008, 06:17 PM
I guess, then, since I am using TRUE DS/DD media, I can punch both sets of index holes, to use both sides, right?

Hope so - already did (3) of the 3M DS/DD disks I have...


T

MikeS
March 4th, 2008, 06:22 PM
Well, I GUESS if you can line up a puncher good enough, you can make another index hole...
T
--------
Here's a dual-mode disk with the sticker removed and a piece of paper inserted to show the index holes better. A SS disk would only have the hole on the left and a DS disk the one on the right; with a dual-mode disk like this you'd cover the hole you don't want for the mode that you're going to use on the disk.

m

Sharkonwheels
March 4th, 2008, 06:42 PM
Here's how my hack came out (piece of paper inserted to highlight punched holes):

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l33/Sharkonwheels/Vintage%20Computer%20Stuff/IMG_1094.jpg

T

MikeS
March 4th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Here's how my hack came out (piece of paper inserted to highlight punched holes):

T
--
Looks good; Let us know how it works.

m

NobodyIsHere
March 5th, 2008, 02:39 AM
-------
Well, it's not really that critical since the hole in the envelope can be much larger than the index hole in the disk, which is the one that matters (you don't touch the media itself, just the envelope). Heck, if Andrew can take a soft-sectored 5" floppy and add the holes in the *disk itself* to make it hard-sectored, it's a snap by comparison ;-)

[snip]

m

Hi,
It is true, I have made 10 and 16 sector hard sector 5.25" floppy disks using dead TM100-2A carcasses as a jig guide and a specialty hole punch.

The process works great but is slow as molasses in January. I can make a small number of disks but they are too time consuming to be practical.

There is a guy on the NorthStar_Computers mailing list who has build a real hard sector disk punch which can crank out perfect disks very quickly. Of course, it takes metal machining skills to replicate it though.

Thanks!

Andrew Lynch

Sharkonwheels
March 5th, 2008, 03:47 AM
If you can get more info on what he made, I might be able to replicate it for you. I basically have a machine shop in the garage: Mill, Lathe, (2) bandsaws, drill presses, etc...

I've never seen one - are there actually 16 index holes in the jacket as well?
or just on the actual media itself?


T

MikeS
March 5th, 2008, 04:23 AM
If you can get more info on what he made, I might be able to replicate it for you. I basically have a machine shop in the garage: Mill, Lathe, (2) bandsaws, drill presses, etc...

I've never seen one - are there actually 16 index holes in the jacket as well?
or just on the actual media itself?

T
----
Actually, 17 (or 11 respectively) total, just in the media (although holes in the envelope wouldn't matter as long as they're larger); don't need any extra holes in the jacket since there's only one sensor. Basically, 16 (or 10) equally spaced holes, same size and distance from the centre as the original index hole, with the original hole half-way between one pair of holes. Made it easier to find the sector beginning since each sector was identified by a hole instead of having to locate it in the data stream.

m

Terry Yager
March 5th, 2008, 06:59 AM
I thought the SS drive had an index sensor, but only where it expected the index hole for the SS media.

I also thought the DS drives had 2 index sensors, one for SS, one for DS.

8" drives, yes. 5.25", no. I think...am I getting confused again?

--T

Terry Yager
March 5th, 2008, 07:08 AM
---------
Actually, that's the point; 8" drives CAN detect the sidedness of the media because the index holes are in different locations in the disk envelope. As happened to Tony, a DS disk in a SS drive will not issue any index pulses because the hole in the envelope does not line up with the LED and sensor, while a DS drive has two LED/sensor sets and which one sees light pulses when the disk is spinning tells the drive what kind of disk is in it.

mike

Absolutely, but I thought the question was about 5.25" drives in a Kaypro(no model specified). See yzzerdd's quote above...

This whole thread is getting pretty mangled, isn't it?

--T

Terry Yager
March 5th, 2008, 07:19 AM
----
Actually, 17 (or 11 respectively) total, just in the media (although holes in the envelope wouldn't matter as long as they're larger); don't need any extra holes in the jacket since there's only one sensor. Basically, 16 (or 10) equally spaced holes, same size and distance from the centre as the original index hole, with the original hole half-way between one pair of holes. Made it easier to find the sector beginning since each sector was identified by a hole instead of having to locate it in the data stream.

m

Yes, one index hole for track, and the others for sector beginning. Soft-sectoring means that a magnetic marking is used instead of a hole for each sector. As to punching, yes, it can be done to convert (nearly) any media to work on different equipment (one exception being the 11 hard-sector <-> 16 hard-sector).

--T

Terry Yager
March 5th, 2008, 07:28 AM
5.25" disks can be punched (just the jacket) in order to use both sides in a SS drive that uses the index hole. Some disk manufacturers used to offer so-called 'Flippy Disks', which were already punched in this manner. (I've got a few around here somewhere, just for S&G).

With 8" disks, two index holes for DS, one for SS, and SS can easily be punched to use both sides (again, jacket only). Sharko's example above has three holes, so that the same disk can be used as a DS in a DS drive, or as a flippy one-side-at-a-time SS disk using both sides. Other 8" disks can be punched in order to use both sides as well, either SS-flippy, DS, or both (either?).

--T

NobodyIsHere
March 5th, 2008, 07:33 AM
If you can get more info on what he made, I might be able to replicate it for you. I basically have a machine shop in the garage: Mill, Lathe, (2) bandsaws, drill presses, etc...

I've never seen one - are there actually 16 index holes in the jacket as well?
or just on the actual media itself?


T

Hi Tony,
I can send you some pictures. Apparently the guts of an old 16 or 10 sector floppy disk serve as a guide for the exact measurements. I will send you some photos tonight.

Please PM if I forget. Thanks!

Andrew Lynch

PS, here is the weblink. It is on the NorthStar_Computers Yahoo! Group webpage.

http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthStar_Computers/photos/browse/a8b4

Sharkonwheels
March 10th, 2008, 11:21 PM
Since all these 8" disks, from companies like Verbatim, 3M, etc...
all say they come with a lifetime warranty...

Yeah....you KNOW where I'm going with this....

Anyone send an 8" SS/DD diskette to 3M for warranty and see what happens next?


I would be laughing all the way to the post office!!!!


T

Druid6900
March 11th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Yes, but, you'll notice they don't say WHOSE lifetime, eh? :)