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bugman2112
March 4th, 2008, 07:54 AM
At some point during my Apple II collecting efforts I obtained an Apple CP/M card. I would really like to check it out and use some software. There appears to be quite a bit of free CP/M software floating around on the web. However, I know the native disk format is different and I don't think I can just start using the images.

Can someone point me in the right direction of how to begin using CP/M software on the Apple? How much CP/M is really compatable with the APPLE?

Thanks,

BT

david__schmidt
March 4th, 2008, 08:47 AM
I know the native disk format is different and I don't think I can just start using the images.
If they are whole disk (.dsk) images, you certainly can. ADT (http://adt.berlios.de) or ADTPro (http://adtpro.sourceforge.net) can transfer them for you.

Can someone point me in the right direction of how to begin using CP/M software on the Apple?
One place to get a quick, technical primer on CP/M on the Apple:
http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/apple2/Apple.CPM.ref.txt

How much CP/M is really compatable with the APPLE?
Good question. Probably most of it, assuming you have an 80 column card.

CP/M User
March 4th, 2008, 07:37 PM
bugman2112 wrote:

At some point during my Apple II collecting efforts I obtained an Apple CP/M card. I would really like to check it out and use some software. There appears to be quite a bit of free CP/M software floating around on the web. However, I know the native disk format is different and I don't think I can just start using the images.

Can someone point me in the right direction of how to begin using CP/M software on the Apple? How much CP/M is really compatable with the APPLE?

I'm unsure if an Apple II based computer would have had a specific system disk for it (check the System Disks thread in the CP/M Section), program compability wise CP/M has a vast amount of Public Domain Software froating around for it. Unfortunately a lot of it maybe written for something in such a way that Terminal Emulation Codes (which a lot of CP/M programs run on) are different from your system and you need to know what codes the Apple would accept. Likewise I would suggest perhaps scanning the Apple websites which have programs specific for Apples on them - there maybe some Apple II CP/M there. Most likely they'll be in some kind of Disk Image, so if you want to run them on your existing system then I'd assume there would be a program for taking those images and copying them to your Disks (check the Apple FAQ with this). Another handy copying program which supports hundreds of CP/M Disk formats is 22DISK, though I'm unsure where you'd find a copy nowadays (the manufacturer of that program did a webhunt to find who was supplying 22DISK over the internet and advised them to remove it - if that's true or not I'm unsure).

Like David has said a lot of CP/M generally run with a 80x25 text screen - so it's somewhat critical to have that! :-D

Terry Yager
March 5th, 2008, 06:48 AM
The bootdisk is specific to the card, not the Apple ][. The software will depend on the Z80 card you have. The most popular was the MicroSoft SoftCard, but there were other manufacturers as well, such as Zenith (Z-Card), etc.

--T

CP/M User
March 5th, 2008, 11:03 PM
Terry Yager wrote:

The bootdisk is specific to the card, not the Apple ][. The software will depend on the Z80 card you have. The most popular was the MicroSoft SoftCard, but there were other manufacturers as well, such as Zenith (Z-Card), etc.

Gee that really bugs me to see that even Microsoft were doing business in CP/M related stuff! :-x Even if it's obvious that they had too (I just assumed they made their business in BASIC!).
Can someone ask me how well CP/M runs on an Apple ][ based machine? Or perhaps would the performance of CP/M depend on the manufacturers card? - just wondered.

CP/M User.

bugman2112
March 6th, 2008, 07:45 AM
Thanks for the good information. You are correct, each manufacture of their own z-card for the apple supplied a disk or two. They almost all included CP/M, version 2.2. Microsoft even provided a special version of basic (gbasic) that utilized some of the resident apple ii features like hi-res graphics. I have a windows32 application that can open apple ii disk images(ciderpress). I can copy any cp/m files directly into the image. Then, I can transfer these apple ii disk images back to a real apple ii floppy. Since much CP/M is distributed at the file level rather than old disk images, I should have no problem using the above technique to get most CP/M programs to a real apple. As stated by others, there may be some modification of the code required at that point to get it to run correctly.

I'm going to play around with it this weekend. I'll report back on how it goes. I'm curious of the speed of the z-80 based basic vs. the applesoft 6502 based. The card has the z-80 chip, but uses the apple ii RAM.

Terry Yager
March 6th, 2008, 12:13 PM
I'm still waiting to hear from Ric if the Franklin bootdisk works in an A][ with MS card. (And he's still waiting for me to send him the real bootdisk, soon's I find it again).

As to performance, the A][ + Z-card is sluggish compared to a Kaypro, etc, but the emulation seems pretty good. Most 'standard' CP/M programs will run without modification. I've also played around with the Franklin Ace as well as C= 128 CP/M, and they all are in the same general range. None are speed demons, but disk access has something to do with that too, IIRC (no comparison to a K-10 hard drive).

--T

Druid6900
March 6th, 2008, 06:34 PM
I'm still waiting to hear from Ric if the Franklin bootdisk works in an A][ with MS card. (And he's still waiting for me to send him the real bootdisk, soon's I find it again).
--T

Got the software right here beside me, however, the card is in a box of untested cards (somewhere in shop #2) and, when I have dug down to it, I'll stick it in the ][+ and let you know. I know where the ][+ is, so, that's a big step.

Terry Yager
March 6th, 2008, 06:40 PM
The good news from my side is, I went thru a bin full of floppies today, and the MS disk is no longer among the missing. I have it right in my grimy lil' fist right now. It'll come along whenever I shoot the rest of the sh!t to ya.

--T

CP/M User
March 6th, 2008, 09:11 PM
bugman2112 wrote:

Then, I can transfer these apple ii disk images back to a real apple ii floppy. Since much CP/M is distributed at the file level rather than old disk images, I should have no problem using the above technique to get most CP/M programs to a real apple. As stated by others, there may be some modification of the code required at that point to get it to run correctly.

Oh well if you got Apple II disk images with CP/M programs already on them, then they should work fine on a real Apple. I was merely thinking about the CP/M programs from sites which supply generic CP/M programs on. Some code will work fine cause it doesn't use terminal codes, though if you're downloading Word Processors, or other applications then Terminal Codes will be used heavily.

If you want to try out some Turbo Pascal (assuming it's available on an Apple ][), I've got some Turbo Pascal 3 stuff on my Website (http://www.geocities.com/cpm22_user/programs/Amstrad_CPC/TurboPAS/) some of it is Amstrad CPC based, though I've got some Generic Code (Index.txt lists what I call Generic), unfortunately I haven't got an ".com" files there though. Maybe someday I'll Compile it all and Zip it into one file.

bugman2112
March 7th, 2008, 09:38 AM
Just got everything out and started to take a look. Turns out I have the ALS (advanced logic systems) Z-Card. It says revision 1, and does not look like the fancy ALS z-cards I've seen that sport a 6mhzt zilog and on-card memory. But, it doesn't look like a Microsoft softcard clone either. I have only found disk images for the more advanced 3.0c revision. Can anyone point me in the right direction for online docs or images as I have been unsuccessful do far. I guess I could try the microsoft software and the newer ALS disks anyway to see how compatable they are.

bugman2112
March 7th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Well that was fun. I got my ALS z-card up and running. It does appear to be compatible with the microsoft softcard as all the software worked. I was able to play a couple of games of classic rogue for old times sake. Pretty cool.

DoctorPepper
March 8th, 2008, 05:52 AM
Well that was fun. I got my ALS z-card up and running. It does appear to be compatible with the microsoft softcard as all the software worked. I was able to play a couple of games of classic rogue for old times sake. Pretty cool.

Very nice!

I never was much into Apple computers. They were just a tad outside of my price range, back in the day. I used to go to the Navy Exchange on base at NAS Oceana, VA, and drool over the Apple ]['s and the early Macs, when they came out. Then I'd go home and fire-up my TRS-80 Model IV or 4P and mess around some. :-)

Good luck!

nekonoko
April 10th, 2008, 11:11 AM
Well that was fun. I got my ALS z-card up and running. It does appear to be compatible with the microsoft softcard as all the software worked. I was able to play a couple of games of classic rogue for old times sake. Pretty cool.

Very interesting! I just picked up an ALS Z-Card (still waiting for it to arrive) and chased down disk archives marked als_301b2 and als_301c3. Which Microsoft Softcard software did you end up using? It's great to know it's a compatible card.

bugman2112
April 11th, 2008, 06:20 AM
I used the system disk that came with the microsoft card. It has the fundamental core programs along with two versions of Microsoft Basic. The larger basic includes routines for utilizing apple II graphics similiar to applesoft. This link has the disk image and documentation.

http://www.apple2info.net/hardware/softcard/softcard.htm

nekonoko
April 12th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Excellent, thanks! I'll report back once the card arrives.