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genocho
October 16th, 2008, 02:50 PM
The question is easy, for upgrade the soundblaster 2.0 is neccesary 3 chips,

2 SAA1099P and 1 PAL16L8BCN.

The two SAA1099P are difficult to find but sometimes appears on ebay or if you prefer make a murder you can extract it from a sam coupe micro........NO !!!

The problem is with the PAL16L88CN, this DIP 20 IC is a logic programmable array, that means for work with SB 2.0 needs to be programmed with the proper logic.........

Anyone knows this program to make a perfect replica of the logic with a stock PAL16L88CN ????

I read some posts about this problem but nothing solve the problem of read an original soundblaster PAL16L88CN and replicate to a stock one.

Any info about how to replicate this IC is welcome and If anyone can dump his PAL from his soundblaster 2.0 are best too.

Regards,

Anonymous Coward
October 16th, 2008, 07:45 PM
I've read about this before, and It seems you can't make a copy of the PAL16L8BCN chip because it has some kind of internal protection that prevents you from copying the code. The only way to do it is by feeding the inputs and measuring the outputs. There were a few guys working on this, but I'm not sure how far they got with it.

It would be really nice to have this chips since it's pretty damn hard to get your hands on a Game Blaster these days.

Trixter
October 17th, 2008, 04:48 PM
In my experience, it's usually much easier to find an SB 1.0 or 1.5 with the chips installed than to find a CMS or Game Blaster card.

Robin4
October 15th, 2011, 12:49 PM
Does an PAL16l8acn also work if i get this one programmed? I taken it off an old modem card 8-bit..

Chuck(G)
October 15th, 2011, 01:02 PM
PALs are OTP tungsten-titanium fuse programmed. You can't erase and reprogram them.

If you've got the programming, it's much easier to use a GAL16V8, which is erasable.

See the current entries on my blog for unraveling protected pure combinatorial PALs.

(How many people here even know that we have a blog section?)

Robin4
October 15th, 2011, 02:10 PM
ok so i can throw it away only..

Chuck(G)
October 25th, 2011, 03:34 PM
It's been done. See my HAL/PAL blog starting here. (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8).

DonutKing
October 25th, 2011, 04:22 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for your effort there, that's been eluding the retro PC community for a long time now :)

Robin4
October 27th, 2011, 04:35 AM
I hoping someone would cloning them and put them on ebay.. Thats easier for me, then doing it myself..
I never have used an eprom programmer before, so i dont know the basics of it..
And then that PAL/ HAL thing. Maybe it looks very simple. But if you dont know much of electronics is hard too to understand how its working.

First i need to know how eproms works and writing it so they are in working condention.. Then i always could try an HAL programming.

Maverick1978
October 27th, 2011, 08:10 AM
Very nice write-up, Chuck.

I've been following the first portion of your original thread. Much of the point-specific electronic logic is beyond me, but I can follow the general thought process, and it's been quite the interesting read. - one day it would be nice to sit down and duplicate it to get a better grasp of the concepts involved - thanks again for posting!

That said, it's awesome that you chose to use the CMS upgrade PAL chip as your demonstration. I know that when I was researching what was needed for the CMS upgrades, that PAL is where most people fell off, as they're just not available anymore and were probably pretty rare to begin with. Thanks for opening this particular piece up to the community!

Chuck(G)
October 27th, 2011, 08:37 AM
Per Shadow Lord's request, I've attached the JEDEC programming file to part 11. I was kind of hoping that folks would be following along and figure out how to compile their own from the blog files, but I suppose there are those who just want a load-and-go solution.

The next posts will deal with cloning the Trantor T130B address PAL. This is much tougher than the SB 2.0 PAL, as it deals with 14 inputs, tristate outputs and feedback terms. I note that neither of the two T130Bs on eBay have these installed, which allow one to boot from a SCSI drive, so it might be a worthwhile thing for someone looking for an 8-bit SCSI solution.

If you have trouble finding the GAL16V8 parts (shouldn't be the case), note that there are plug-in replacements for them, so use your Google-fu. In particular, I note that Jameco has a closeout on their PEEL16CV8P-25 chips for $0.75 each, which claim to be direct plugin replacements for the GAL16V8. Make sure your programmer can handle them before you order, however.

Agent Orange
October 27th, 2011, 09:08 AM
Per Shadow Lord's request, I've attached the JEDEC programming file to part 11. I was kind of hoping that folks would be following along and figure out how to compile their own from the blog files, but I suppose there are those who just want a load-and-go solution.

The next posts will deal with cloning the Trantor T130B address PAL. This is much tougher than the SB 2.0 PAL, as it deals with 14 inputs, tristate outputs and feedback terms. I note that neither of the two T130Bs on eBay have these installed, which allow one to boot from a SCSI drive, so it might be a worthwhile thing for someone looking for an 8-bit SCSI solution.

More Trantor references . . .

http://www.digitalsupporttech.com/mskb/107/107209_Trantor_128B_and_130B_settings.htm

Chuck(G)
October 27th, 2011, 09:11 AM
More Trantor references . . .

http://www.digitalsupporttech.com/mskb/107/107209_Trantor_128B_and_130B_settings.htm

Fortunately for everyone, the settings are neatly silkscreened on the PCB. :)

RJBJR
October 27th, 2011, 11:02 AM
Per Shadow Lord's request, I've attached the JEDEC programming file to part 11.

So I just looked at file types in Topwin and see uncle JED as one of the choices. I have 3 of the 8-bit SB's installed in various systems that don't have CMS chips but eventually will thanks to you.


The next posts will deal with cloning the Trantor T130B address PAL. This is much tougher than the SB 2.0 PAL, as it deals with 14 inputs, tristate outputs and feedback terms. I note that neither of the two T130Bs on eBay have these installed, which allow one to boot from a SCSI drive, so it might be a worthwhile thing for someone looking for an 8-bit SCSI solution.

Got one of the Trantor T130B cards minus BIOS and PAL so all this work you are doing is very useful for me. Thanks!

Agent Orange
October 27th, 2011, 02:31 PM
Fortunately for everyone, the settings are neatly silkscreened on the PCB. :)

You're right Chuck the settings are neatly silkscreened, however the actual functions aren't. As a matter of fact, SW6, SW7, and SW8 refers you to "SEE THE MANUAL". Nowhere on my T130B does it tell you that "SW 5 Boot ROM Enable ON:enabled;OFF:disabled" - only that if SW3, SW4 & SW5 are off that the ROM Address is DISABLED. My point is that it would be easy to miss on initial setup and would prevent the SCSI from booting.

Chuck(G)
October 27th, 2011, 02:42 PM
You've got a point. The "reserved" ROM address settings I've deduced are that because the designers ran out of logic in the PAL. :)

However, any address could be programmed in; just that it would have to substitute for one of the given ones.

Chuck(G)
October 27th, 2011, 05:37 PM
At any rate, the T130B thread starts here (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL).

Enjoy!