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tezza
December 22nd, 2008, 05:28 PM
Hi,

I've recently acquired a Kapryo II with drive issues as posted about in the collections thread (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=13569).

Today I pulled the machine apart to inspect the drives. They are Tandon TM 100-1A models. There is little about them on the web.

Anyway, I disassembled them and lubed the rails of both, reconnected and tried to boot. Same result...the disk could not be read.

I decided to swap the drives over. Knowing that there is both a terminator block and drive number selector to change somewhere, I looked for these. I found them (see below) and exchanged them. Interestingly, what I'm assuming is the terminator (disguised as a blue IC) was on drive B not drive A? Even though drive A was last in the chain. Is this usual?

http://classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/08-12-23-kaypro%20drive%20jumpers.jpg

Anyway...

So I booted with the swapped drive (was B now A) and volia! The drive spun for a second and up came CP/M 2.2. Typing DIR revealed the below..

http://classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/08-12-23-kaypro%20dir%20screen.jpg

What a beautiful sight!

So, drive A seemed to have issues and Drive B was ok (actually maybe not but more on that later).

I looked more closely at Drive A. Ah ha...a broken wire on a plug!

http://classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/08-12-23-kaypro%20drive%20unconnected%20wire.jpg

I figured this was the problem but after re-attaching the wire, and reconfigring it as Drive A again, it STILL refused to boot a disk. It can't read a directory as B either. Obviously there is a non-visible fault with this one. I figured I might have broken that wire myself when I removed the plug to unscrew the circuit board when I cleaned it. It is strange though, as it was almost as if that wire was NEVER attached? The flex was kind of flat (not pointed) and there were no remenants of wire in the pin itself?

Ok, anyway, I have a least one working drive right?

Well...I'm not sure. Typing a DIR showed all those programs. However, I can't get any of them to load. The disk just spins and spins. So either..


This drive is also faulty (but it boots no problem, every time and display a DIR???).
The programs did not write out correcty onto the disk, from the PC containing the image. (although it was a 360k drive and all tests seemed fine).
The image itself was just a CP/M boot disk and those programs were not actually on the disk. However, their directory entries were.

Anyone got any ideas? I only used one image of Dave Dunfield's and that was KAYPRO1.IMD . I made three duplicate disks and they all behave the same way in the Kaypro. Has anyone used this image before and does it really have those programs on it?

I will look at the other images when I get some more time.

Hopefully it is hypothesis number 3.

Tez

Terry Yager
December 22nd, 2008, 09:34 PM
Did you only try to run the .com files? See what happens if you TYPE one of the text files (.asm or .bas). The syntax is the same as MSDOG: TYPE [FILENAME.EXT]<ENTER>.

--T

MikeS
December 22nd, 2008, 11:17 PM
Have you tried STAT?

tezza
December 23rd, 2008, 01:09 AM
Yes, I only tried the com files. I'm pretty sure I tried STAT but will give all two suggestions a go when I boot the machine up again.

Tez

Erik
December 23rd, 2008, 06:22 AM
Quick thoughts:

1. Clean the heads.
2. Check the belt and pulleys on the drive bottom. If they are out of spec (dirty, loose, etc.) the drive speeds will be off and reading disks will fail. (The drives should have a pattern that can be used with a strobe, if you've got one.
3. The drive(s) may be mis-aligned. You'd need an alignment disk and software, dedicated hardware or a 'scope to figure and fix.

Good luck!

billdeg
December 23rd, 2008, 06:44 AM
We had a similar problem with MARCH's Kaypro II. You can swap in any Tandon 100 or compatible drive that fits (IBM PC for example). It does not matter which drive has the terminator, as long as one of them does. If you have a spare IBM PC use that drive temporarily.

Edit:
In fact, I suggest that you compare and contract the A and B drive from a working IBM PC to see what differences there are, if any between these two systems. I bet they're fully compatible.
http://vintagecomputer.net/itemsavailable/ibm_full-height_tandon100_qty-2_parts.jpg
Bill

tezza
December 23rd, 2008, 10:25 AM
Quick thoughts:

1. Clean the heads.
2. Check the belt and pulleys on the drive bottom. If they are out of spec (dirty, loose, etc.) the drive speeds will be off and reading disks will fail. (The drives should have a pattern that can be used with a strobe, if you've got one.
3. The drive(s) may be mis-aligned. You'd need an alignment disk and software, dedicated hardware or a 'scope to figure and fix.

Good luck!

Thanks for those thoughts Erik. The first thing I did before testing them was clean the heads. When I removed the drives I also checked the belts. They are clean and tight.

I guess mis-alignment is always a possibility. I've no equipment to check that at the moment. The unit is quite pristine though and doesn't look like it's been abused (dropped etc.).

I'm puzzelled about the drive that DOES boot though. Why can it boot and show a DIR so successfully yet not be able to run any of the programs listed? I'd like to verify the disk image is sound.

I'll be doing more investigations on that but it may need to wait until the family mania of xmas is over. However, I welcome all and any thoughts.

Tez

tezza
December 23rd, 2008, 10:35 AM
We had a similar problem with MARCH's Kaypro II. You can swap in any Tandon 100 or compatible drive that fits (IBM PC for example). It does not matter which drive has the terminator, as long as one of them does. If you have a spare IBM PC use that drive temporarily.

Edit:
In fact, I suggest that you compare and contract the A and B drive from a working IBM PC to see what differences there are, if any between these two systems. I bet they're fully compatible.
http://vintagecomputer.net/itemsavailable/ibm_full-height_tandon100_qty-2_parts.jpg
Bill

Yes, I'm sure they are compatible Bill. I guess this will show if there is any disk controller issues. I don't think there are though, because the Kaypro B can boot and show a directory whereas A doesn't work at all. That suggest it's the drives that have the problem(s).

Unfortunately I don't have any spares. About eight month ago I HAD a spare tandon full-hight I used to use on my System 80. I threw it out thinking it was faulty. I now know more about hardware and I suspect it wasn't the drive at all, but rather the machine it was attached to. (grrr...never throw old stuff out!)

Those full-height drives are quite rare here. You almost never see them on our local auction site.

Tez

Ole Juul
December 23rd, 2008, 03:45 PM
t
ezza: ... (grrr...never throw old stuff out!)
W00t!! another convert.

Yzzerdd
December 23rd, 2008, 03:53 PM
Wow, too bad those drives don't work, as you said it is an otherwise nice system.

My Kaypro II had a similair problem. One drive would boot and thats it, the other didn't work at all. But my booting drive was A: not B:...isn't there a key combo where you can switch the drives? Or is that the Osbourne?

I can't reccommend more than what the others have, although I can suggest that if you have a voltmeter, use the IBM 5150 Hardware Service Manual to diagnose your drives. I assume that the voltages and chips should be pretty much the same. I've never noticed a difference between Kaypro drives and IBM Tandon T-whatever drives, other than the faceplate.

Hmm...lets see where that manual is... Oh, thats right, Eric's site is down...Hmm...Well, if you can find another online or have an IBM Harware Service Manual, I wish you luck.

--Jack
BTW, poking through my data archive, I do indeed have the IBM 5150 HSM in a few different PDFs. Ask me nicely and I will grudgingly try to split them into 10MB pieces and e-mail them to you. PMs of course.

tezza
December 23rd, 2008, 10:48 PM
More progress on this.

I had a couple of hours spare from Xmas-preparation duties so I did some more testing. I wanted to know if the disk made from Dave's images contained all the programs it said it did.

First I hooked up to the Kaypro the same 1/2 height DD/DS drive that had MADE the disks. The disk worked just fine. All programs ran!

But then I thought maybe they would only work on the drive that make the disks so I hooked up my full height SS 40 track System 80 drive (see photo). It also worked perfectly. The kaypro booted and all the programs loaded.

http://classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/08-12-23-kaypro%20test%20with%20s80%20drive.jpg

So the disk and the Kaypro drive controller was fine. It must be the drives.

I then looked at the drives again starting with the one that would boot, but not load programs. Listening to this trying to load a program is seemed that the stepper arm was trying to scan the disk but somehow not moving very far down the rail. I could hear it trying to move. I booted with the circuit board folder back from the top so I could see what was going on. The arm would move a bit but then stop.

Hmm..I looked at the rails again. I didn't want to use too much oil but maybe the rails were still dry and sticky. I cleaned it again, finding some more black gunk underneath and in less accessible areas of the rails. I gave it a good oiling this time and pushed the head arrangement back and forth many times until is seemed very free.

Guess what? It worked!!! When I re-assembled and booted, it not only ran CP/M but booted ever program on the directory and could read all the text files using the TYPE command!

That drive (the original B drive which I've configured as A) was certified as working and OK

I turned my attention to the second drive. I gave it another clean but no joy with this one. I think it's something else. The stepper motor doesn't even TRY to move the heads on boot. There is no movement at all! If the head is manually moved from the rest position before switching the machine on it moves back there on boot (so there is electricity there), but then doesn't seem to attempt to pan the disk at all.

Oh well, at least I know know that I DO have one good drive, a boot disk that's fine and one broken drive. The computer itself (apart from just one drive) seems to work flawlessy.

So it's not so bad. I might be able to fix the drive with a bit more tinkering, but otherwise I'll look out for one. I could always poach my System 80 drive (it's external) but I want to keep the components of a disk-based System 80, as part of the collection.

Tez

MikeS
December 23rd, 2008, 11:21 PM
I know, I know, it's obvious, but just in case: you did set the jumpers properly and install the terminating resistor when you checked that second drive?

And shame on you: You of all people should know that the FIRST thing you do with any drive is clean and lightly lube the rails... ;-)

m

tezza
December 24th, 2008, 01:15 AM
I know, I know, it's obvious, but just in case: you did set the jumpers properly and install the terminating resistor when you checked that second drive?

And shame on you: You of all people should know that the FIRST thing you do with any drive is clean and lightly lube the rails... ;-)

m

Yes, certainly checked the jumpers and terminating resistor etc. In fact, it's the B drive that works, which I've now configured (by shifting the resistor and changing the jumpers) to act as A.

Ah but, cleaning the rails and lubing WAS the first thing I did (see an earlier post).

However, it obviously wasn't cleaned and lubed well enough the first time. The second time I did a proper job, including cleaning all those hard-to-get places including the bottom of the rails. That worked.

Moral of the story. Take your time and do a careful and complete job the first time.

chuckcmagee
December 24th, 2008, 05:12 AM
Whew, you saved me from digging out one of my Kaypros. I was thinking maybe it was some sort of single density/double density type problem but thinking about that now, that doesn't make much sense.

I can't remember which ones but some of my floppy drives have this stupid hard rubber cam that rotates. Then a metal finger follows a groove in the cam to move the heads. Pretty stupid system, if you ask me. Tends to get dusty and the metal finger jumps out of the track.

Dr_Acula
December 24th, 2008, 05:31 AM
That photo brings back memories. Lots of brown disc bypass capacitors. And the green screen. Part of me says "so old fashioned" and another part says "I want one of those. I always wanted one of those..."

Is that how vintage computer addiction starts?

I just finished building a batch of 10 N8VEM CP/M boards. They are a bit old school in that they use eproms instead of eeproms, but they have LCD displays and an interface to a standard PC keyboard and it is really cool to get them chatting via wireless. I like to set my terminal programs to green screen for that true retro feel.

But one thing that strikes me in comparing these old systems with newer ones is that the newer ones have no moving parts. That appears to be the weak link - a computer stops working for lack of a bit of grease.

Restoring old systems certainly is a labour of love.

Yzzerdd
December 24th, 2008, 08:40 AM
Nice job, Tezza!

I've had some problems with IBM 360K drives not reading disks, etc. But the ones I've tried fixing are the ones that used to work then started giving me trouble. Anyhow, I've found it to be the top circuit board on two occassions. It's not that hard of a test. Just take the circuit board off one working drive and hook it up to the drive that doesn't work. If the drive starts working again, then the problem is on the circuit board somewhere. Bad chip? Broken trace? Wrong switch settings? Could be anything.

--Jack

tezza
December 24th, 2008, 08:50 AM
Nice job, Tezza!

I've had some problems with IBM 360K drives not reading disks, etc. But the ones I've tried fixing are the ones that used to work then started giving me trouble. Anyhow, I've found it to be the top circuit board on two occassions. It's not that hard of a test. Just take the circuit board off one working drive and hook it up to the drive that doesn't work. If the drive starts working again, then the problem is on the circuit board somewhere. Bad chip? Broken trace? Wrong switch settings? Could be anything.

--Jack

That's a good idea Jack. I'll try that.

Tez

tezza
December 25th, 2008, 09:58 AM
That's a good idea Jack. I'll try that.

Tez

After cleaning up after Xmas festivities last night I swapped the top circuitboards over. They both work.

For some reason the stepper motor is not being activated although the motor itself can move the head; if it's not in the resting postion before boot, the motor will activate and return it there.

There is a secondary ciruit board on the back on the unit. I might try swapping that too. If that works it will narrow the fault to the stepper motor itself maybe? I'm assuming that if the electronics (i.e. circuit boards) feeding the motor and heads are all ok (because they can be successfully exchanged between the two drives) then it must be the stepper motor itself which is not working as it should.

Or it could be the heads but am I right in thinking if there is something wrong with the heads themselves, they would still "seek" (i.e. move down the disk looking for the boot track) assuming everying else is ok?

Tez

frozenfire75i
December 25th, 2008, 10:47 AM
The board on the back of the drive as far as I know dose the moter speed/contral for the spindle or the main motor.


After cleaning up after Xmas festivities last night I swapped the top circuitboards over. They both work.

For some reason the stepper motor is not being activated although the motor itself can move the head; if it's not in the resting postion before boot, the motor will activate and return it there.

There is a secondary ciruit board on the back on the unit. I might try swapping that too. If that works it will narrow the fault to the stepper motor itself maybe? I'm assuming that if the electronics (i.e. circuit boards) feeding the motor and heads are all ok (because they can be successfully exchanged between the two drives) then it must be the stepper motor itself which is not working as it should.

Or it could be the heads but am I right in thinking if there is something wrong with the heads themselves, they would still "seek" (i.e. move down the disk looking for the boot track) assuming everying else is ok?

Tez

modem7
December 25th, 2008, 02:43 PM
A faulty 'track 0' switch is a possibility.

On initialisation, the floppy controller will look at the TRACK 00 line from the drive, and if that line indicates that the heads are not at track 0, will step the heads in the track 0 direction until the TRACK 00 line activates.
If the 'track 0' switch is faulty, then the TRACK 00 line will never activate. I would expect that after the floppy controller has issued 40 steps in the track 0 direction, and sees the TRACK 00 line still inactive, that the controller would then assume the drive to be faulty and stop any further operations with it.

tezza
December 25th, 2008, 03:36 PM
A faulty 'track 0' switch is a possibility.

On initialisation, the floppy controller will look at the TRACK 00 line from the drive, and if that line indicates that the heads are not at track 0, will step the heads in the track 0 direction until the TRACK 00 line activates.
If the 'track 0' switch is faulty, then the TRACK 00 line will never activate. I would expect that after the floppy controller has issued 40 steps in the track 0 direction, and sees the TRACK 00 line still inactive, that the controller would then assume the drive to be faulty and stop any further operations with it.

Hmm..it keeps spinning though until CP/M itself stops it? Also, would a faulty track 0 switch be consistent with the stepper motor returning the head to a start position (edge of disk) on boot then doing nothing, and simply doing nothing if the head is already positioned at the start position?

I've swapped around the smaller card on the back of the drives and it seems both cards are fine too. So the "electronics" as such seem ok.

While I always like to know exactly what's wrong, I think the best course for me at this time is to look for a replacement FH SSDD drive.

Tez

modem7
December 25th, 2008, 10:51 PM
On power up, the heads could be anywhere. There is no way for a floppy controller to ask the floppy drive as to which track the heads are over. The TRACK 00 line is the only form of feedback. And so on the first operation of the floppy drive after power up, the floppy drive controller (FDC) initially takes the heads back to track 0 and from then on keeps a track (pun intended) of which track the heads should be over by monitoring the step commands (direction and count).


Also, would a faulty track 0 switch be consistent with the stepper motor returning the head to a start position (edge of disk) on boot then doing nothing
Look at this scenario:

* Heads on track 2 at power on.
* CP/M asks floppy controller (FDC) for first sector on floppy (or asks for 'recalibration').
* FDC sees that HEAD 00 line inactive and therefore assumes that heads are not on track 0.
* FDC selects floppy drive (motor, etc.), issues a step in the direction of track 0.
* Floppy drive moves heads to track 1.
* FDC still sees that HEAD 00 line inactive.
* FDC issues a step in the direction of track 0.
* Floppy drive moves heads to track 0.

At this point, the heads are on track 0, but because of the faulty switch, the drive cannot inform the FDC of that.
The FDC will believe that the heads are still past track 0.

* The FDC will continue to issue steps waiting to see the TRACK 00 line toggle at some point. In intelligent design, there's no point issueing more than 40 steps. Whether or not you will hear the stepper motor straining at this point comes down to stepper motor design I guess.

* FDC gives up on drive (TRACK 00 line did not toggle as expected).



and simply doing nothing if the head is already positioned at the start position?

* Heads on track 0 at power on.
* CP/M asks floppy controller (FDC) for first sector on floppy (or asks for 'recalibration').
* FDC sees that HEAD 00 line inactive and therefore assumes heads are not on track 0.

At this point, the heads are on track 0, but because of the faulty switch, the drive cannot inform the FDC of that.
The FDC will believe that the heads are still past track 0.

* The FDC will issue steps waiting to see the TRACK 00 line toggle at some point.
* FDC gives up on drive (TRACK 00 line did not toggle as expected).

MikeS
December 25th, 2008, 11:31 PM
A track 0 problem could be the problem, but then I'd expect it to try stepping when you power it up while already at track 0. Easy to check: pin 26 should go from high to low when it restores the head to track 0.

Might be a selection problem, but you've checked that; I assume the LED does light while all this is happening? Have you tried grounding pin 20 a few times while the LED is on?

Not much goes wrong with the electronics on these drives in my experience; out of the dozen or so that I've used and still have the only problems have been analog, i.e. heads, alignment &c. except for one track 0 switch AFAIR.

So it may just be the most obvious, that it can't read the boot track and just sits there trying until it times out. Try formatting it; most formatters will merrily step through the disk whether it's OK or not until the end.

m

tezza
December 26th, 2008, 01:24 AM
Might be a selection problem, but you've checked that; I assume the LED does light while all this is happening?

Yes, it is.


Try formatting it; most formatters will merrily step through the disk whether it's OK or not until the end.


I did this tonight and the exercise may have offered a few more clues. Here's what happened.

1. A disk in drive B (which was the original A drive) could be formatted AND verified without errors
2. A CP/M System disk in drive A could be copied to the disk in drive B AND verified without errors.
3. switching to >B, I could list a directory, run programs and list text files from the newly created disk in Drive B
3. However the new system disk made in drive B would not boot in drive A. Nor could I list a directory when used in drive A. It exibited the same symptom when the B drive (configured as A) tried to boot the original CP/M disk. In other words nothing. No seeking...just spinning.

Guys, this suggests to me an alignment or speed problem, would you agree? The disk is fine FOR THE B DRIVE (the drive it was created on) but it's speed and/or alignment is too much out of wack with the A drive for it to be recognised. Is this how you would read it?

If I get a moment tomorrow I'll see if the new system disk made on >B will boot on the B drive, when I've configured it as A. I guess if it does, that will strengthen the theory above.

Regarding speed, I've had a look at the strobe patterns on the drive platter as they are spinning. One drive appears a fraction slow, the other a fraction fast. Not by a lot, but maybe enough so that disks made in one won't read the others? Should there be an adjuster somewhere which fine tunes a drive's rotation speed? I couldn't see one anywhere?

Tez

Elar
December 26th, 2008, 01:53 AM
On the back PCB, there should be trim pot for adjusting spindle speed.
Here's the schematics for TM100:

http://icl486.pointclark.net/~pdf/Tandon%20TM100%20Schematic.pdf

R4 1k trim pot, page 2

Dwight Elvey
December 26th, 2008, 06:50 AM
Hi
Sure sounds like a track alignment problem.
It would be good to put an alignment disk on
both drives.
Dwight

tezza
December 26th, 2008, 11:11 AM
Ok, I've done some research on this.

It seems that I need an analogue calibration disk, some software and some instructions.

I don't have such a disk and I imagine they are rare and expensive.

The drive reads and writes to itself just fine. The pragmatist in me says I just should let it be. After all, it's only going to be used for demonstration if at all. I shouldn't spend a lot of money on it. However, I like to have all my systems working 100% and it niggles at me if I don't. (Given that maybe I shouldn't be playing with vintage computers :) )

Is there any "quick and dirty" way to attempt re-calibration without the special disk? Perhaps disk diagnostic CP/M software which can be used for testing after turning the calibration screws? I might have a bit to lose though, as the drive may then stop working completely.

What do you think?

Tez

tezza
December 26th, 2008, 02:36 PM
I've adjusted the timing so both drives run at exactly the same speed. No difference.

Some more info gleaned from a run today...

1. A boot disk made in the faulty drive (drive B) does boot the machine when booted from the faulty drive.

2. The faulty drive has trouble formatting high numbered tracks. On five disks (all new) the format with verify failed on tracks 34 upwards with increasing errors. The most errors were on track 39. I noticed this yesterday with two disks, but the third one seemed to format ok. I used this one to make the new boot disk copy in B. However, reformatting that disk today threw up those track errors, then 2 more new ones I tried. It seems pretty consistant then.

More evidence of an alignment, or at least a head problem?

Tez

modem7
December 26th, 2008, 03:36 PM
It seems that I need an analogue calibration disk, some software and some instructions.
I don't have such a disk and I imagine they are rare and expensive.
The service manual for the TM100 is at http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/tandon/diskette/Tandon%20TM100%20Operating%20and%20Service%20Manua l.pdf
The overall alignment procedure is on page 19. You'll note that an oscilloscope is another required tool for the head alignment. I have both an oscilloscope and the specified Dyson 224/2A alignment diskette.
An option for you is that if you will pay for shipping to/from Australia, I will do a head alignment on your drive for you.

If you have an oscilloscope, another option is that I loan you my alignment diskette. I can also provide a BASIC program for the PC that will allow you to step to a specified track.


The faulty drive has trouble formatting high numbered tracks. On five disks (all new) the format with verify failed on tracks 34 upwards with increasing errors.
The higher the track number, the tighter the bits are packed. Heads still slightly dirty perhaps?

modem7
December 26th, 2008, 03:50 PM
It does not matter which drive has the terminator, as long as one of them does.
The drive at the end of the cable is to have the terminator, to stop/reduce signal reflection occurring at the end of the cable (refer to transmission line theory).

Note that that doesn't mean that the setup won't work if the terminator is positioned somewhere other than the cable end - signal reflection can occur from the end of the cable and that can interfere with controller to drive communication. Play safe.

patscc
December 26th, 2008, 04:06 PM
This is a bit of a stretch, but perhaps the read amplifier circuit is faulty ? The fact that reads on outer sectors (lower bit rate) but not on inner sectors (higher bit rate) almost sounds like there's a lpf or band-pass in the read amplifier that's shifted it's spectrum due to a leaky cap or something similar.
Ok, I know it's a stretch, but...
patscc

patscc
December 26th, 2008, 06:31 PM
Another off-the-wall thought. Put the drive in a IBM-PC, and run something like Drive Probe against it, if you have it. or, barring that, see if the same behaviour manifests itself( or another Kayro, for that matter)
patscc

tezza
December 27th, 2008, 01:47 AM
I have both an oscilloscope and the specified Dyson 224/2A alignment diskette.
An option for you is that if you will pay for shipping to/from Australia, I will do a head alignment on your drive for you.


I'll PM you about this.



The higher the track number, the tighter the bits are packed. Heads still slightly dirty perhaps?

Yes, I thought of that. I gave them yet another clean but no improvement.

Tez

Dwight Elvey
December 27th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Hi
With problems on the inner tracks, it could be dirty heads,
as was mentioned, or azimuth. If it is an azimuth problem,
there is little that one can do except check that the
rails are in the right place relative to the heads. If
the heads are a little off center or crooked they would
fail at the center tracks.
It could also be that you are using the wrong type
of disk. if they are 1.2M disk, they will have this problem.
360K disk usually have donuts on the hub but I've
seen them on 1.2M disk as well.
Dwight

Chuck(G)
December 27th, 2008, 09:59 PM
Tandons aren't bad drives for their time.

If disks you format in the "bad" drive don't work in "good" drives, but boot in the "bad" drive, then your alignment is probably off--and, as Dwight suggested, so might be the azumith. Take a good look at the head and the springs that hold it against the medium--are they corroded or deformed?

How's the spindle speed? If it's low by more than 10 percent, you're going to have problems interchanging disks between drives. Be sure to measure the spindle speed with a diskette inserted and the heads loaded.

tezza
December 28th, 2008, 01:08 AM
Hi Dwight, Chuck(G)



It could also be that you are using the wrong type of disk. if they are 1.2M disk, they will have this problem. 360K disk usually have donuts on the hub but I've seen them on 1.2M disk as well.
Dwight

They are definitely not high density disks. Double Sided, Double Density is what it says on the label.


If disks you format in the "bad" drive don't work in "good" drives, but boot in the "bad" drive, then your alignment is probably off--and, as Dwight suggested, so might be the azumith. Take a good look at the head and the springs that hold it against the medium--are they corroded or deformed?

How's the spindle speed? If it's low by more than 10 percent, you're going to have problems interchanging disks between drives. Be sure to measure the spindle speed with a diskette inserted and the heads loaded.

The spindle speed was just a little fraction slow but is calibrated now and is dead on when accessing or writing a disk. However, I'll have another good look at the heads and springs.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Tez

pavery
December 28th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Tez

I can help you with drive alignment & speed - and I'm local too :)

As it happens, I need to delve into my TRS-80 Model III. I can offer to plug in your drive & set the speed plus check the alignment. I have a scope, but no alignment disk (looking for one, thou). I do a 'poor man's' alignment by moving the heads to get the best signal on a floppy that was written to by the *other* drive in the machine. My Model III has TM-100s as well. One of my drives had a similar problem to yours and this technique solved the problem.

The TRS-80 Model I/III has great Disk Drive diagnostic powers. The program 'Floppy Doctor' set's speed digitally, steps by user input and boasts a heap of tests to work-out a drive. You can run it on your System-80.

So I must visit you (as we've discussed previously). After the New Year, I'll phone you. Dying to check out some of your collection - particularly the PET.

Philip

tezza
December 29th, 2008, 01:18 AM
Tez

I can help you with drive alignment & speed - and I'm local too :)

Hi Philip,

Great! Yes, you are just down the road relatively speaking. Good to see you on the forums here


As it happens, I need to delve into my TRS-80 Model III. I can offer to plug in your drive & set the speed plus check the alignment. I have a scope, but no alignment disk (looking for one, thou). I do a 'poor man's' alignment by moving the heads to get the best signal on a floppy that was written to by the *other* drive in the machine. My Model III has TM-100s as well. One of my drives had a similar problem to yours and this technique solved the problem.


Excellent. It's a date! I have a feeling it might be more than just alignment though. There are some other issue, possibly damaged heads or a azimuth problem as the drive has problems reading and writing inner tracks. If it is one of these two it can't be fixed.

It's a strange symptom. It's never consistent. You can format/verify a disk and (very rarely) it shows no errors. Format it again and it has errors. Format a third time and it also has errors, except these are not the same. The only consistant thing is they tend to be the higher tracks and there are more errors the higher the track number.

I've cleaned the heads thouroughly with a cotton bud and isoproply alcohol. I've also swapped drives and formatted/verified disks in the "good" drive just to check it wasn't the disks themselves. They formatted perfectly. I've also swapped over both sets of circuit boards. Same result.



So I must visit you (as we've discussed previously). After the New Year, I'll phone you. Dying to check out some of your collection - particularly the PET.

Philip

Sure thing. However, in case you've got high expecations don't expect a well ordered display. :) They are all in an untidy stack of cardboard boxes. However, we can rummage through whatever you're interested in.

The PET isn't in a box as it's still a work in progress. It's still not going but I HAVE got around to thoroughly cleaning the motherboard. Driud (on this forum) has given me some tips and Carlsson is keeping his eye out for a possible replacement board. Externally at least, it's a fine looking machine.

Tez

GADFRAN
December 31st, 2008, 04:26 PM
Hi!

Many of you know me and Kaypros and my web site www.kayprosts.org.

From my great experience in this area, just replace them with Teacs!

I have never had any issues with Teacs over many years.

Tandons have always been an issue, even with my software to align them, diagnostics, etc. Spent a lot of money having a repair service trying to keep them running until I decided I would learn to do it myself.

I can sell / give you many Tandons, spare parts, etc., but your time is not worth it.

If you are a 'purist" and want to stick to the Tandons, fine. Just know what you are getting into.

Teacs are half height so you have the cosmetic issues on the front panel.

But if you upgrade to 4 disk drives, this issue goes away.

Next issue, is trying to upgrade Kaypro II's. Microcornucopia does not exist any more.

But for later Kaypros, after 1983, there is still an upgrade. Check with "Sharkonwheels" the expert in this area on this site.

All the best in whatever you decide.

Frank

P.S.

So glad you finally got your Kaypro II! Great machines.

No word from Andy Kay and his web site recently, so I guess he finally retired, although he had many health issues.

They were built like the Tucker Cars of the 1940's - very rugged - but time moves on and the market shows not much loyalty.

Chuck(G)
December 31st, 2008, 05:34 PM
You have lots of Tandons? Any TM-100-4M drives?

(AFAIK, Teac never made a 100 tpi drive)

Terry Yager
December 31st, 2008, 06:03 PM
Gotta agree with ya on the TEAC drives, I use nothing but most of the time (although my K-II is the glaring exception, I like to keep her pure).

--T

chuckcmagee
December 31st, 2008, 07:26 PM
I finally managed to test all the real old Tandon single sided drives I own. Out of 3 drives, all 3 controller cards have various issues, mostly with improper control of the head stepper motor. When I get more time, I will do the "take controller card from working newer drive" and see if the bottom stepper motor parts actually do work. I suspect that all 3 of the bottom parts will work.

Oh ya, I do have few Kaypros. Will have to see if any have a working single sided Tandon drive in them.

Chuck(G)
December 31st, 2008, 09:35 PM
I have at least three different versions of TM-100 drive electronics PCBs--some for 6-wire steppers, some for 3-wire and at least one for a 4-wire stepper. Be careful when you start swapping.

chuckcmagee
December 31st, 2008, 10:16 PM
Oooooo, thank you, thank you, bow! I was freely moving my 3 controller cards around, watching how the stepper reacted with each one. I got lucky. Turns out all three drives all use 6 wire stepper layout. I'll be sure to look very carefully at any Kaypro drives I might find.

And yes, 3 controllers and 3 drives = 9 different combinations. Took me almost the entire day moving controller cards around and getting my flashlight out to watch the head movement. No wonder my Northstar Horizon would never boot!

tezza
January 1st, 2009, 10:32 AM
Gotta agree with ya on the TEAC drives, I use nothing but most of the time (although my K-II is the glaring exception, I like to keep her pure).

--T

Yea, whatever drive I use as a replacement will have to be full height, so not to spoil the visual appearence of the machine.

I have a full height TEAC drive which I use for the System 80. It was originally an Apple drive, but I modified it (or should I say re-modified it back to the factory original) so it would work on any standard machine. I tried fitting this in the Kaypro case but unfortunately the position of the card edge is in a different position (and is the other way up) from the Tandon, and the disk drive cable could not be twisted/stretched enough to fit it.

Tez

Dwight Elvey
January 2nd, 2009, 06:28 AM
Hi Dwight, Chuck(G)



They are definitely not high density disks. Double Sided, Double Density is what it says on the label.



The spindle speed was just a little fraction slow but is calibrated now and is dead on when accessing or writing a disk. However, I'll have another good look at the heads and springs.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Tez

Hi
Although, I mentioned this before, I thought I'd mention this again.
With the belt drives, the surface of the flywheel must be absolutely
smooth. Not just to the eye but truly smooth. Slight problems
there will also cause problems with the inner tracks.
On the older drives, I've even gone so far as to mount the drive
on a lath and smooth the flywheel down.
Most of these drives have pot metal flywheels that can form irregular
oxides on the surface. I'd still recommend taking some fine sand paper
( 600 or finer ) and spin the flywheel on it until one a saw shiny metal
surface.
Dwight

GADFRAN
January 2nd, 2009, 11:06 AM
Thursday, January 01, 2009

Tezza,

Wow all of these posts so fast! You and your topic are sure popular.

Some further thoughts on my posting and the others about your “new” Kaypro and disk drive issues.

My original post was just a “quickie” to help you out ASAP, so you did not waste too much time and get into too much frustration, even though as a hobby, it can be a lot of fun – “a labor of love” as so many have said.

So glad you finally got one! We had emailed each other a few times in the past.

Things look like they are working out for you, but you and others may have future disk drive and other issues develop, so I offer the following.

We can PM each other if more details are needed, since this post is already so long.

If anyone is interested, continue reading. If not, just move on.

================================================== ======
With vintage computers, as in so many other areas, there are many unknowns and possible unintentional consequences.

So please note that if you decide to make use of any of the information I provide, including in this and any other postings, in addition to my web site, then you use it
“only and completely at your own risk.”

All this is offered in “good faith” and I can have no liability in any form and any way, including many of the other standard disclaimers. It is the best I know at the present time from the information I have. If you cannot accept this, then do not use this information.

Also note, that many beginners may not be aware of the possibility of harmful and even lethal electrical hazards with your computer activities, especially when you open your computer case. There can be other hazards also, so be careful and get sufficiently informed.

You may even want to hire an appropriate and qualified professional in such matters.

================================================== ======

Erik, as the webmaster, if any of this is not appropriate just delete, move, etc. any and all of it as you see fit. I do not want to clutter up the site unnecessarily.

An idea – another section on your web site like an “Archive” for such longer and more detailed posts? By the way, love how you keep upgrading the site – many thanks from all of us!

================================================== ======

I will eventually post such things as this on my web site, but this is quicker. I use an outside web service and it takes awhile to update the site and there is some expense involved.

Also, this thread may become very useful for others who have similar Kaypro drive & other issues. In addition, some may have their drives work fine after a fix and then other issues develop.

This thread may also help to reduce the number of inquiries and responses on some of the same questions some new Kaypro owners continue to have.

Some specific details -

1] If you want to be a “purist,” then you probably will stick with the Tandons. But for those who want to actually use their Kaypro systems a lot, then the Teacs are something to consider in order to not have to do so many repairs. After all, the real fun is using your Kaypros and not just looking at them.

2] I spent a great deal of time learning and repairing the Tandons, also using the Dyson and other diagnostic / alignment systems, etc., until the eventual upgrades and the 4 Teacs per system. I can just say that the responses you got all seem accurate from my experiences, as far as I can tell, but my memory may not be as sharp as from way back then.

3] I agree, the Tandons were not bad drives for their time, but time moves on and better options become available.

4] Naturally, there will always be conflicts of actual experiences for many reasons [“the law of unintentional, and many times unknown, consequences”].

5] Consequently, I have a collection of about 40 – 50 in our basement in all sorts of condition [great to just for parts!], but they are old and not professionally refurbished. So “new” – really professionally refurbished [I do not think you can get “real new” or “not used” any more] would be the best bet to save you a lot of frustration, time and effort. Also see below for some additional issues.

6] Tandons are still available at reasonable prices from Farris [see my post] and other posts on this web site. The 5.25” floppies are also available. You may want to try newer floppies, since I have seen some reports of the media breaking down with older and used floppies of that early era.

7] Who thought that around 25 years later these systems and floppies would still be in use!

8] Many reference documents may already be available as scanned downloads elsewhere. I know the Kaypro service manuals are available from a group in Britain. Erik knows about them.

9] A] Some may know a lot of this, but from my experience with this so excellent web site so far and with vintage computing in general, many probably do not.

B] So much to learn and so little time!

C] Where can you go to get such great technical information so quickly from so many people worldwide and over the holidays yet! This web site is similar to our local computer group - Lehigh Valley Computer Group.

================================================== ======

10] As most long time Kaypro users know, the main issues with the Kaypros were the soldering on the power supplies and the Tandon drives. Otherwise, what great machines!

11] The soldering issue was rather simple to manage. Just remelt the main solder areas on the power supplies, especially for the connectors to other areas of the Kaypro. Micro Cornucopia indicated to me that this was about 90% of all the Kaypro issues that they dealt with at that time.

12] A] I cannot begin to tell you how hard my wife and I used our 6 Kaypros for almost 10 years in so many projects. Once I learned how to do my own work on them, I rarely had any issues after the upgrades to Kaypro “8” ‘ s stabilized and I was using new half height Teac drives. Heat was the main issue, since we were pushing the system well beyond what it was designed for. More details below.

B] With the Teac drives, when I started up all 6 Kaypro “8” ‘s last year at about this time to check them out, they all immediately came up, but naturally some a little slower than others, they read the disks in the drives and ran the software – after between 10 – 15 years in storage and not being used!

13] A] Some may not be aware that with only 64 K in RAM, there was a lot of swapping going on with the A drive for the software and even for the B drive, where you stored the files you were making. Thus, the A drive was usually the first to show issues. This sounds like what you found Tezza. You know computers well and knew the “swap” of the B drive for the A drive should be tried and it worked.

B] When I was doing big projects like extensive spreadsheets, the disk drives would continuously spin for 15 to 30 minutes swapping and / or storing data!!! What a workout! So while that was taking place, I worked on another project with a second Kaypro setup right next to the first Kaypro.

14] Another important aspect, especially with respect to future issues that may develop with a Kaypro, there are many variations of even the same model due to possible last minute undocumented production changes [no ISO 9000 then] while they were built. Kaypro got pretty chaotic and hectic at times and some models may contain items that are not contained in other units of that same model due to many reasons [e.g., use up spare parts, run out of certain parts, errors, etc.]. Quality control / assurance [QC/QA] must have been a nightmare then. More details below.

15] A] But Careful inspection of your particular Kaypro may speak volumes, if you know what to look for. We can all help each other in this regard.

B] Unless you know about many of these details on just what specific Kaypro model and version you have, along with any modifications that may have been made, then it will be very difficult to try to effectively and efficiently deal with any future issues that may develop.

C] By the way, how did you get it, or maybe you cannot tell us [a midnight requisition? – but knowing you, I don’t think you are into that!]. Do you know any details of its past history that could provide some clues for this and other issues that may develop in the future?

16] A] 1] First a picture “speaks a 1000 words” – thanks for providing one - your drives are mounted vertical, rather than the more common horizontal. Looks like there is no drive shield also. Also drives mounted with bottom of drives towards CRT and power supply, which can protect their circuit boards and circuits better from any electrical interference.

2] USA FCC hammered TRS-80’s in this regard and all had to be
eventually recalled. Apple also had this issue and they were able to economically manage it eventually. So it can be an important but variable issue.

B] 1] Front configuration of other items – LED and knob [brightness control ? – but usually on the back panel] are different – at top and not down side of CRT – was this series made for just New Zealand? You said TRS-80’s were different in your country than in the USA and were called “Dick Smith System 80’s”.

2] I found some Kaypros have a Netherlands address on the back. I
have one and so does Erik. But otherwise they seem the same.

C] These are all “tip offs” that your Kaypro may be different from many standard others. Did someone do some modifications? This may not be important now, since you seem to have your disk drives presently under control, but may become significant when future issues develop.

D] More pictures can help, especially of the cover, back panel and close up of main board. Also, what is the serial number [S/N] on the back panel?

E] Compare your Kaypro to the many pictures of my Kaypros on my web site under the folder “Special” – I did a 2008 calendar with many such pictures. Check the main board chip layout and chip numbers and socket “U” numbers especially. But keep in mind that they were modified in certain areas to Kaypro “8” ‘s however. I can provide more details, if needed.

F] I put these pictures and draft of my book on my web site since we still do not have DSL / broadband in our very rural area yet. Such big MB downloads can take from ½ to over an hour to upload or download.

17] A] Looks like you are taking the drives out to check how they perform while you make adjustments. Sometimes when you put them back into the computer, they do not work – can be a sign of interference from the rest of the computer, among many other issues.

B] You may also want to put the cover back on before you test to see if the drives are working after you fix them. With all the electronic stuff we have in our homes today, some may cause some interference. I had some even back in the 1990’s. Kaypro was smart using a heavy duty aluminum metal case for many reasons!

18] A] Looks like your main board has chips at U43 and U47 with the usual white stickers on them. They can be a key as to what particular Kaypro you really have.

B] Sharkonwheels on this web site will know a lot more – Shark if you are reading this, correct me if I made any errors. I am sure you will help Tezza and other people, since that is just the kind of guy you are.

C] If U47 Monitor ROM has a white sticker on it indicating 81-232, then you have a Kaypro 4 “at heart”, even though the outside case says you have a Kaypro II [note not “2” – that can be another issue]. If you can locate a Micro Cornucopia Pro-8 chip, then you can change and add different drives at will, if you ever want to upgrade.

D] Note U43 Character ROM can be another different issue.

E] 1] Shark and others may even be able to “make” such chips for you, although there may be legal and other issues involved and he will certainly need to be compensated in some substantial way for such specialized services.

F] If U47 is 81-149 [possibly a “C” after it also, an “A” or a “B” version has some history of issues surrounding them] then you have a Kaypro II.

G] If it is 81-292-A, then you have a Kaypro 4, but a 1984 year
version. This may be able to be upgraded to 4 disk drives using the currently still available Advent system. Check with Sharkonwheels on this web site – he is an expert on the 1984 Kaypros – I am more into the 1983’s.

19] A] Note also the main board designation for the year 1983’s is 81-240, 81-184 or 81-110 {obsolete – but I have one I believe} [may be on back of board on lower right side when look at top of board].

B] If the board number is 81-184, it is a 1984 year computer.

C] Note some of these boards and or U47 chips can use different versions of CP / M.

D] Note also that there are a variety of Kaypro “ 2 ’ s ” - 2X, 2/84, New 2, etc.

E] Kaypro “ II “ is usually for the 1983 year computers.

F] There are many Kaypro 4 versions. There is even a Kaypro “1” used as a prototype only, if you ever wondered about that number designation. One of the later Kaypro “2” ‘ s was actually a “II “ and produced using a lot of old spare parts, just to get some much needed funds as they approached bankruptcy probably . Osborne apparently did this also. Many others probably did and still do.

G] There is much confusion about all these designations, chips, main boards, CP / M’s, etc., so be careful.

H] I have gotten many inquiries and it is difficult for some to accept that it was just that way in early computing. Another motivation for this long document is to help others who are in such a situation – it can help keep down the traffic in responding about the same issue over and over again. They can just go to this posting for the info.

I] But today, we have some similarities – Win 95, Win 98, Win ME, Win XP, Vista, etc. and now the new Windows 7 is coming – all leading to many compatibility issues.

J] Naturally, if you do not have the right CP / M versions, then even if your disk drives are ok, you cannot boot! Be grateful you have the right boot disk [many do not] and that it works with your Kaypro.

20] A] 1] A Micro Cornucopia article noted that the floppy disk controller [FDC1793, at socket U82] and / or the data separator [FDC 9216, at socket U88] can be issues. Some of these may still be available at JDR Electronics in California.

2] But beware of export restrictions! Will you get a knock on the door
by home security? Probably not, but ……….- who needs the grief!

3] Also there may be some custom duties. There are some posts on
www.classiccmp.org email distribution that some shippers will back charge the person who shipped the items for any such duties, if they are not paid by the recipient.

B] 1] a] JDR also still has many of the other Kaypro main board chips, including the Z80’s – CPU, PIO and SIO very cheaply [less than $1 each, even just $0.25], since they were and I guess still are, so commonly used.

b] Also check the versions of these Z80 chips you have –
Z80A, Z80B, etc. These are faster chips and may generate excess heat, which can show up after you have run your computer for a few hours. Then the “fun” begins – lockups, shutdowns, disk drive issues and other erratic behavior.

2] If you have a “real “1983 Kaypro II and they are A’s or B’s, then
someone may have done some upgrades on your Kaypro. They should just be Z80’s with no other letters added. Other Kaypro versions / models may have the “letter” designated versions – up to eventually “H” I believe.

C] Apparently, Kaypro got a big batch of bad data separators that caused a lot of long term issues.

D] In fact, I published a short note in Micro Cornucopia in 1987 on two of my upgraded Kaypros that eventually failed because of these 1793 chips, probably due to the heat issues involved with stressing the basic design of the system with these upgrades. It was one of my similar short publications to help others from my experiences.

E] 1] These Micro Cornucopia [MC] upgrades were just great, with very complete and understandable directions and quality parts, but you were really pushing the system way beyond what they were originally designed for, so there were some “break-in” issues that developed.

2] One was this heat generation, so if you have an upgraded Kaypro,
be aware of this. Comically, it was discovered when we put the tops back on our Kaypros. The people designing the upgrades never did this, since they were always “tinkering” with their systems. That is why I added a fan and even a perforated aluminum top to help cool them. Then all was fine.

E] One MC article even recommends just replacing the Tandons with half height good quality Japanese drives. It is easy and quite inexpensive. But I may note that there are some other considerations – setting the jumpers correctly, twisting the drive cables correctly, etc. But overall, no big deal if you are aware of these issues.

21] A] One of the best source of Kaypro technical information are the Micro Cornucopia journals of course. If they could be scanned and made available, it would be a great service.

B] Unfortunately, in our continuing downsizing in retirement, many years ago I could never have imagined I would ever need these journals again. We had moved on to Gateways, Compaqs, Gateways, Toshibas, etc. So they were tossed into the dumpster, along with much else from that era.

C] I do have some of the main articles, but they are marked up with my notes. In addition, it would be a big scanning job to do. Then there are the legal issues and how best to make them available and archived at a central location. Many are struggling with such issues for many computers today. Hopefully they will be eventually resolved in a satisfactory manner.

22] A] Also, another consideration of that era is the concept of “hypergrowth” that Osborne coined and is the title of his book on his company. I bring out some of this in the draft of my book on that era – “a computer built every 5 minutes!”.

B] For perspective, Tandon was selling “28,000 disk drives a month” to Kaypro alone! So right there you have a great potential for at least some bad drives getting into the system. Did you get one and others did not?

C] So some may be disappointed with some “issues” they may face with their Kaypros and other vintage computers, but for perspective, it is a miracle that so many were made so well and still work today from that early and so new era of computing!

D] I can say that all the Kaypros we got, 2 were new, and the 4 others used, were and still are incredible working machines. So rugged and so well designed and made. Again, like the Tucker cars of the 1940’s. But things change and life moves on, but what could have been if they could have continued profitably?


================================================== ======

So that is it for now. Hope some of this is of some interest and use.

I encourage all to please return the favor and continue to offer your input so we can all benefit.

If there is enough interest, then a lot of this Kaypro stuff can be pursued more intensively and even put on my web site. But right now, my information indicates that we are a very small group, so we will just have to try to do the best we can.

With the present global economy situation, it may take several years before we all get back to a time when we have more disposable income to devote to our hobby and to more substantially preserving these vintage computers.

All the best for 2009 and thanks for your interest and keeping those Kaypros and other vintage computers running!

Frank


Some additional background info if you are interested –

Please keep in mind, I am not a computer “techie!” I learned on my own what I had to learn to keep our systems going – we had a big investment in so many ways to try to protect and extend the usefulness of their lives, until we eventually went to more modern windows systems.

Also, my research for the draft of my book on these early portable, personal computers [PPC’s] – Osborne, Kaypro, Compaq, IBM, etc.] provided much additional information.

The draft is available as a free download on my website under the folder “Special,” if you are interested. Two publishers are now reviewing it for possible publication. But with the global economy as it is, I doubt either will be able to publish it. So I will eventually publish it on my own using our computer and inexpensive laser black and white printer. Any funds from such a publication will just go to fund my continuing STS research, which of course, includes vintage computers.

Please note that some of the files on this website, including this draft, got corrupted recently and when downloaded, appeared to be just simple text that was not very sophisticated and understandable. If this happens again, just let me know and I will have the web site provider fix it again.

Also, please ignore any “typos,” since I already spent a lot of time on this. But my wife is an English major and has very high standards!

tezza
January 3rd, 2009, 01:16 AM
Frank,

Thanks for your comprehensive post. Certainly more than 2 cents worth!

I just got in after a day out and hope to digest some of what you've written tomorrow, when I can read it properly and digest it. I'll either get in touch via a PM or email or (if I think the info might also be useful to others) post something here.

You are right about the sturdy and repairable nature of Kaypros. One thing that highly impressed me was that EVERY CHIP on the circuit board is socketed, making for easy IC replacement.

Now you don't see that everyday. I wish that was the case on my PET!

Tez

tezza
January 3rd, 2009, 02:03 AM
Some quick notes just before I hit the sack..



Things look like they are working out for you, but you and others may have future disk drive and other issues develop, so I offer the following.


Well, yes and no. Although I will play with the alignment at some stage, my gut feeling is I'll be better off just looking for a replacement drive.

I certainly know a lot more about drives now though. So much so, I've just managed to repair an old Apple DISK ][ drive this morning. It was broken when I got it (turned out the speed was way out)!



If you want to be a “purist,” then you probably will stick with the Tandons. But for those who want to actually use their Kaypro systems a lot, then the Teacs are something to consider in order to not have to do so many repairs. After all, the real fun is using your Kaypros and not just looking at them.


It's good to have an original configuration but I'm also a pragmatist. I'd be quite happy with a TEAC but it would have to be full height. I wouldn't want it to change the original external appearence of the machine.

As I mentioned before I did try to squeeze a TEAC full height drive in there. The card edge was in the middle of the drive rather than the at the side and was flipped the other way. Unfortunately the existing cable was just too short between the card sockets to connect them.



You may want to try newer floppies, since I have seen some reports of the media breaking down with older and used floppies of that early era.


Yes, I'd been burnt with used floppies so they are all fresh out of the sealed box these days.



When I was doing big projects like extensive spreadsheets, the disk drives would continuously spin for 15 to 30 minutes swapping and / or storing data!!! What a workout! So while that was taking place, I worked on another project with a second Kaypro setup right next to the first Kaypro.


LOL! I remember the same kind of thing when doing big stat matrices, on my System 80



By the way, how did you get it, or maybe you cannot tell us [a midnight requisition? – but knowing you, I don’t think you are into that!]. Do you know any details of its past history that could provide some clues for this and other issues that may develop in the future?


No, I don't know too much about it's history. I could probably get that info though.



First a picture “speaks a 1000 words” – thanks for providing one - your drives are mounted vertical, rather than the more common horizontal. Looks like there is no drive shield also. Also drives mounted with bottom of drives towards CRT and power supply, which can protect their circuit boards and circuits better from any electrical interference.


I'll take a few more photos of the Kaypro naked and post them on here. As you say, it's an unusual machine and others might be interested.

I'll check out the serial number tomorrow and post it here.

There does seem to be a drive shield between the CTR and drives. It screws onto the bottom of the A drive.



Front configuration of other items – LED and knob [brightness control ? – but usually on the back panel] are different – at top and not down side of CRT – was this series made for just New Zealand? You said TRS-80’s were different in your country than in the USA and were called “Dick Smith System 80’s”.


No, I don't think this Kaypro was a NZ variation. It has "Made in the USA" on the back.

The System 80 was a TRS-80 Modl 1 "compatible", not a modified TRS-80. TRS-80 Mod 1s were sold here too. They were just hellishly expensive!



Looks like you are taking the drives out to check how they perform while you make adjustments. Sometimes when you put them back into the computer, they do not work – can be a sign of interference from the rest of the computer, among many other issues.


Yea, I don't think that's the problem here. They behave just the same out of the unit than in it.



For perspective, Tandon was selling “28,000 disk drives a month” to Kaypro alone! So right there you have a great potential for at least some bad drives getting into the system. Did you get one and others did not?


No, I don't think this was the case. The previous owner said it had worked fine for many years. In fact, he had thown all his kaypro disks out because he thought he disks were faulty. He was quite devestated about that when I told him it was the drive.

More tomorrow...

Tez

tezza
January 3rd, 2009, 02:31 AM
Most of these drives have pot metal flywheels that can form irregular oxides on the surface. I'd still recommend taking some fine sand paper ( 600 or finer ) and spin the flywheel on it until one a saw shiny metal surface.

Thanks Dwight. Worth a go I guess. I'm assuming great care is needed to remove the flywheel. Any tips on how to do this? I don't want the stretch the belt.

Tez

tezza
January 3rd, 2009, 06:21 PM
I've taken a few pictures of my naked Kaypro.

The Serial number on the back is 005322

1. First up a general picture with the cover off..


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-naked%20kaypro.jpg


2. Here is a front-on picture of the two drives.


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-naked%20kaypro-drives-front.jpg


3. A top view of the drives. Note the metal cover on the base of the one nearest the monitor (shielding?)


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-kaypro-vertical-disk-drives.jpg


4. A view under the circuit board left side by monitor.


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-kaypro-from-left-side-under-cb.jpg


5. The circuit board from the top. It has a number 45336 hand scrawled on it top right from the centre. Click here for a larger image (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-naked%20kaypro-cb-large.jpg).


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-naked%20kaypro-cb-small.jpg


6. Back of unit


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-naked-kaypro-back.jpg


Tez

Dwight Elvey
January 3rd, 2009, 07:49 PM
Thanks Dwight. Worth a go I guess. I'm assuming great care is needed to remove the flywheel. Any tips on how to do this? I don't want the stretch the belt.

Tez

Hi
Do not remove the flywheel. You can loosen the screws holding the motor.
This will give you enough slack to remove the belt.
You can spin the flywheel with your finger and hold a small piece of
fine sand paper to the surface.
Also check that the bearing is smooth. Sometimes the grease
dries and makes the balls lumpy.
Also check that the motor pully is smooth.
Dwight

Dr_Acula
January 3rd, 2009, 08:05 PM
What a learned discussion! I'm not sure I'm worthy to even post on this one, but first, those pictures are great.

Back in the day I don't recall ever seeing a real Kaypro. But there were pictures around, so the hobbyists and enthusiasts built their own computers and modded them to look like kaypos. Brings back memories.

Socketed chips - someone was thinking ahead!

And by the looks of that motherboard, I'll bet that was laid out by hand. No fancy autorouter there!

I'm actively coding some software in CP/M 2.2 for the N8VEM that connects a board to a PC and turns a directory on the PC into drive P> in CP/M. Handy for doing something like PIP A:*.*=P:*.* It might be useful if you need to send some data across (is that D25 a serial port?).

As an aside, does anyone know where you get those little alfoil sticky things that go on EPROMs? Or even what they are called?

Not sure I can add much re the drives though. The mechanical parts are always the weak link.

As a general comment, it is interesting to see how much electronic parts have been 'standardised'. On that board are IDC headers, power connectors, right angle D plugs - all very familiar in modern computers. Yet go back 25 years before 1984 and very little stayed the same in those 25 years.

Dwight Elvey
January 3rd, 2009, 08:48 PM
---snip---

> Socketed chips - someone was thinking ahead!

Hi
Sockets are one of the weakest points in old computers.
There would be much fewer problems without sockets.
I'd rather unsolder bad parts than deal with poor sockets.

--- snip---

> As an aside, does anyone know where you get those little alfoil sticky things that go on EPROMs? Or even what they are called?


I don't use foil. I just use white stick-on paper I get from the stationary store.
There is little to worry about erasing them. Paper blocks almost 100% of the
short wavelength UV. The adhesive block much of what is left over.
Metal foil is overkill.
Dwight

patscc
January 3rd, 2009, 08:51 PM
Dr._Acula said...little alfoil sticky things

I'd call them eprom window covers, but that's probably about as accurate as alfoil sticky things.
If you're cheap, use duct tape (I've no idea if this even exists in Australia, but sure would like to know...)
If you're shooting for something fancier, perhaps like this, with a bit of scissor-work...
http://cgi.ebay.com/1000-SILVER-ROUND-PRICE-TAGS-STICKERS-JEWELRY-DISPLAY_W0QQitemZ320310112655QQcmdZViewItem#ebayph otohosting

Barring that, since the goal is to keep UV out, there's always black paint, black laquer, piece of a disk label... you get the idea.


Dr._Acula said...No fancy autorouter there
That's worth it's own thread. "When did automatic (or assisted ) trace routing of printed circuit boards first appear ?" or something like that.


Dr._Acula said...I'm actively coding
Sounds cool. Is there something one can take a peek at ?


Dr._Acula said...sockets
Until I had to reseat a board & clean corrosion between pins & sockets, I thought sockets were pretty cool, too. They rule for breadboarding, but for production...


Gotta agree with Dr_Acula on the pics. Shure is a pretty one.

patscc

patscc
January 3rd, 2009, 09:07 PM
Dwight Elvey said...Slight problems there will also cause problems with the inner tracks
I'm still trying to picture this. I thought that rot. speed has a 1% tolerance, typically. I can't see how an oxidation layer a few microns thick translates to enough to upset to the speed to exceed the 1% tolerance, unless there's something else marginal, like the bearings are worn, spindle warped, something like that.
I could, however see it if the belt were glazed, or at least old, and there was irregular oxidation, as this would change belt "slippage"

I'm not trying to quibble, just trying to understand.

patscc

tezza
January 3rd, 2009, 09:56 PM
I'm actively coding some software in CP/M 2.2 for the N8VEM that connects a board to a PC and turns a directory on the PC into drive P> in CP/M. Handy for doing something like PIP A:*.*=P:*.* It might be useful if you need to send some data across (is that D25 a serial port?).

I would be interested in this too. Through a combination of software and hardware accessories I can transfer programs painlessly from my XP-enabled PC to my following vintage computers:

Vic 20 and Commodore 64
BBC
Atari 400/800XL/130XL
System 80
TRS-80 model 1
EACA Colour Genie
Apple IIe
IBM-PC
Tandy TRS-80 100
Compaq SLT/286

I'd love to add the Kaypro to this list.

Tez

Dr_Acula
January 4th, 2009, 03:03 AM
Thanks for the hints re eproms etc.

Comms between machines is very handy. I have a house full of computers - some giveaways, but back in the day you had just one, so there wasn't such a need to have them talking to each other.

The code I am working on is for the special case of a computer that had a seperate serial terminal, eg a WYSE. Is that how the Kaypro works, or does it do the keyboard to motherboard internally? If so, the code I'm working on won't be much use.

But all my early machines used dumb terminals driven via a serial port. Places like universities used to toss them out in the skip - eg out went the green ones because they now had orange ones. So I'd rummage around and get them for free. Then you just needed the "computer", ie the board and disk drives and power supply.

A PC can be used as a dumb terminal. Eg hyperterminal or teraterm. Or roll your own. Source code etc is at http://n8vem-sbc.pbwiki.com/ and scroll down the right and look in the folder Mini N8VEM VT100 and Drive P. It has some screen shots, a text file DriveP.txt that shows a session with PIP and STAT and DIR and ERA. The folder contains a compiled file where you just run setup and also the source files in vb.net. You might need the source files as I wrote it for 38400 baud and there is no menu to change that. But things like that can be added easily.

You need xmodem on the antique computer. And a serial port that goes to the dumb terminal. If you haven't got xmodem it gets tricky. The N8VEM starts off with CP/M and xmodem and nothing else at all. Even if you don't have xmodem, smart terminals are smarter than dumb terminals. A smart terminal could "type" in the entire hex code of xmodem, and then "run" LOAD to compile it. Of course, you then need LOAD. But only if that serial port can put things on the display as if they are being typed.

If the Kaypro has internal comms on the keyboard and display, but there is a serial port, there are still ways things can be hacked. I guess it depends how much software you have on the machine. I see LOAD and BAUD on the screenshot on page 1.

As an aside, I wonder if anyone ever networked CP/M machines via serial ports. Sure, there was MP/M with dumb terminals. And it is easy to join two computers with a null modem. But what about 3 computers? Did such a thing as an RS232 router exist? Or drive mapping in CP/M? That is my current project using a version of the N8VEM with 4 serial ports. That can be programmed as a router, and even with radio links. I'm thinking a setup where all the vintage computers could be linked to each other which would be very handy.

I hope you can get the drive working. The rest of the machine looks so good.

SteveH
January 4th, 2009, 03:18 AM
As an aside, I wonder if anyone ever networked CP/M machines via serial ports. Wasn't that CP-NET? Never used it myself, only every played with DR-NET and DARCNET network cards.

Great pics. reminds me of an LSI-M3 I once had.

Steve

MikeS
January 4th, 2009, 01:35 PM
There were definitely RS-232 "routers" as well as terminal controllers.

I have a bunch of Net Commanders (which I'd love to get rid of) which have 16 RS-232 ports, any one of which can be connected to any of the others either according to a programmable fixed route or ad hoc by preceding a session with a special addressing sequence; it also handles baud rate and handshake conversion with buffering.

Terminal controllers are similar but usually only connect a number of terminals to one common port (RS-232 and/or ethernet).

A related item is the statistical multiplexer, which is used in pairs: it multiplexes a number of terminals on to one pair of data lines or modem and then demultiplexes the data back to the same number of ports at the other end.

Chuck(G)
January 4th, 2009, 03:09 PM
I don't use foil. I just use white stick-on paper I get from the stationary store.

I use 5.25" floppy write-protect tabs. Perfect size; some are even foil-backed; many are colored black.

Chuck(G)
January 4th, 2009, 03:15 PM
I'm still trying to picture this. I thought that rot. speed has a 1% tolerance, typically. I can't see how an oxidation layer a few microns thick translates to enough to upset to the speed to exceed the 1% tolerance, unless there's something else marginal, like the bearings are worn, spindle warped, something like that.
I could, however see it if the belt were glazed, or at least old, and there was irregular oxidation, as this would change belt "slippage"

I'm not trying to quibble, just trying to understand.


You've got a good point. There are two flavors of speed variation. One is CSV - constant speed variation, where your drive just turns at the wrong speed. Most decent data separators can lock in to speed variations of +/- 10 percent, but that depends on their design. Some are better than others.

The other type is ISV - "instantaneous speed variation". This is a very short-term variation in speed (can be caused by a lot of things, but a slipping belt definitely falls in this category. On 3 inch drives (as those found on Amstrads), i've used Plastibands as a replacement belt. I haven't tried them on 5.25" drives, but it might be worth a shot.

Druid6900
January 4th, 2009, 07:34 PM
Why do I get the sinking feeling that I'm going to get some hollowed out 300Gs with Net Commanders stuffed inside?

Dwight Elvey
January 4th, 2009, 07:36 PM
I'm still trying to picture this. I thought that rot. speed has a 1% tolerance, typically. I can't see how an oxidation layer a few microns thick translates to enough to upset to the speed to exceed the 1% tolerance, unless there's something else marginal, like the bearings are worn, spindle warped, something like that.
I could, however see it if the belt were glazed, or at least old, and there was irregular oxidation, as this would change belt "slippage"

I'm not trying to quibble, just trying to understand.

patscc

Hi
It is the irregular thickness of the oxide. It might supprise you
how thick old oxides can get and how uneven.
I've had surfaces that have seemed relatively smooth cause
failures that were fixed with a cleaned surface.
The surface tend to have irregular oxides because of the gap
where the belt doesn't contact the flywheel.
In my experience, the surface of the flywheel is the most important
part. I've seen lumpy belts and gunk on the motors pulley and the
disk seems to work while the smallest lumps on the flywheel cause
problems.
This is just my experience, I don't know what the physics of it
is.
Dwight

patscc
January 4th, 2009, 08:27 PM
Dwight Elvey said...supprise you how thick old oxides can get and how uneven
It does. I guess I've been lucky thus not to have run into that, but it's definately something I'll keep in mind. Thanks for the explanation.
patscc

Terry Yager
January 4th, 2009, 10:04 PM
I've seen lumpy belts and gunk on the motors pulley and the
disk seems to work while the smallest lumps on the flywheel cause
problems.
This is just my experience, I don't know what the physics of it
is.
Dwight

I'm no physisicisisist but, if the flywheel performs the same function(s) as on an engine, i.e., not only storing kinetic energy, but balancing as well, then it makes sense that having even a little gunk build-up (pardon the technical jargon) on one side could throw off the balance, and cause the rotational speed to fluctuate.

--T

tezza
January 5th, 2009, 01:23 AM
I had another go at the drive tonight.

Following Dwight's advice, I checkout out the flywheel. Small lumps of oxidation were present as can be seen from the photo below.


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-kaypro-dirty-drive-flywheel.jpg

Following Dwight's instructions, I gave the wheel a clean.


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2008-01-05-kaypro-clean-drive-flywheel.jpg

I thought this might have indeed been the problem but alas no. After cleaning the drive exibited the same symptoms as before. I checked the flywheel rotation and it didn't feel lumpy. About the same as the A drive.

Here is something strange though. After putting the belt back on drive B, I checked the belt of drive A and found that to be tighter than the B belt. The B belt didn't seem loose, it's just that A's belt was tighter.

Maybe it was a loose belt causing this problem after all?

To test this I swapped the belts. Now here is the odd thing. Even after swapping ,the belt on the B drive was still looser than that on the A drive? Weird?? The gap between the flywheel and drive motor must be slightly smaller on the B drive??

Despite being looser on the B drive compared to A there is still some tension. It "seems" tight enough to me but then, I don't know what a "normal" belt should feel like. Watching the flywheel turn under strobe it never seems to slow down or speed up. It's rock solid all the way?

To recap then...(recall that intially it was Drive A that was faulty. I swapped it with the working B so I could boot the machine. The current B then used to be A)


Drive B cannot read disks made in drive A (or from Dave program on the PC). Drive A can read Dave's disk images but not disks made in drive B. On the odd times formatting is successful, drive B can read its own disks.
Drive B usually shows formatting errors on verify normally after track 34 but sometimes as low as track 31. The higher the track the more errors. The same disk formatted again will show different errors on different tracks. It's not consistent.
Heads have been cleaned thoroughly with a cotton bud and disk head cleaning fluid.
When Drive A and B are swapped, B can format/verify successfully. So it's not the disk controller.
The two drive circuit boards have been swapped around the drives to test them. There is no difference. It is not the circuit boards.
The flywheel on both drives are now cleaned (A had some oxidation so I did that too). The flywheel on B seems to spin as freely as that on A. I don't think it's the flywheel.
The belt on B is slightly looser than the belt on A. It's not that one belt is larger than the other though. BOTH belts are looser on B. On B then, the flywheel seems a touch closer to the drive motor.

So, it's still a mystery. Here is an observation and a question.

There seems to be a pattern. After formatting a disk after a long period of inactivity (with the machine swiched off for longer than 30 mins or so), the format seems to either work, or comes up with very few errors (maybe just one or two). However, if a re-format is done immediatley after, on a new disk or the same one, many errors appear?? It's the same for subsequest formats. That first format after a (longish) rest however, is sometimes ok. It seems to be a consistent pattern.

Does this mean anything to anyone? I have a feeling it is a clue. Something warming up and expanding perhaps?

A question. There seems to be a consensus that drive alignment and high track errors are unrelated. However if the alignment was WAY, WAY out, could this lead to format/verify errors on the high tracks?

Tez

modem7
January 5th, 2009, 01:42 AM
A question. There seems to be a consensus that drive alignment and high track errors are unrelated.Tez
Was "drive alignment" meant to be "radial head alignment" ?

tezza
January 5th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Was "drive alignment" meant to be "radial head alignment" ?

Yes it was.

Tez

Chuck(G)
January 5th, 2009, 08:34 AM
A question. There seems to be a consensus that drive alignment and high track errors are unrelated. However if the alignment was WAY, WAY out, could this lead to format/verify errors on the high tracks?

No--I can't see a way for this to happen. There's plenty of room (radially) for mispositioning to deliver good results.

Does your format program write the whole disk then verify it? Or does it write and verify each track without moving the head? If the former, you could have an issue with the positioner.

Do the errors consistently crop on on just one side or both?

Do errors begin to crop up after writing/formatting multiple times or just re-reading the same area? If the former, you've probably got a bad head (writing does warm the head up more than reading).

Similarly, if it always one side and not the other, you probably have a bad head.

Some Magnesee and a good strong loupe or microscope could probably give you some more data...

tezza
January 5th, 2009, 08:42 AM
Ho Chuck(G)


Does your format program write the whole disk then verify it? Or does it write and verify each track without moving the head? If the former, you could have an issue with the positioner.


Yes, it formats the whole disk then verifies it.



Do the errors consistently crop on on just one side or both?


They are single sided drives.



Do errors begin to crop up after writing/formatting multiple times or just re-reading the same area?


I haven't specifically compared reading vrs writing, but I could try this.

Cheers

Tez

pavery
January 5th, 2009, 11:29 AM
So, it's still a mystery. Here is an observation and a question.

There seems to be a pattern. After formatting a disk after a long period of inactivity (with the machine swiched off for longer than 30 mins or so), the format seems to either work, or comes up with very few errors (maybe just one or two). However, if a re-format is done immediatley after, on a new disk or the same one, many errors appear?? It's the same for subsequest formats. That first format after a (longish) rest however, is sometimes ok. It seems to be a consistent pattern.

Does this mean anything to anyone? I have a feeling it is a clue. Something warming up and expanding perhaps?



Have you checked the Track stepper motor linkage? A prime suspect are the two screws (Philips head) fastening the steel band that links the stepper motor to the head. These can come loose & cause the head to position inconsistently.

In any case, it sounds like an on-site visit is required :) I shall phone you tonight to arrange.

Philip

tezza
January 5th, 2009, 12:05 PM
Have you checked the Track stepper motor linkage? A prime suspect are the two screws (Philips head) fastening the steel band that links the stepper motor to the head. These can come loose & cause the head to position inconsistently.
Philip

Yes, checked that Philip. They are a tight as a ***'* **** .

Tez

Terry Yager
January 5th, 2009, 12:43 PM
Yes, checked that Philip. They are a tight as a ***'* **** .

Tez

***'* ****??? Must be a down-underism...

--T

tezza
January 5th, 2009, 02:10 PM
***'* ****??? Must be a down-underism...

--T

No, I just didn't want to lower the standards of the forums with anything uncouth. It may not be hard to guess what should go in those wildcards though ;)

tez

Terry Yager
January 5th, 2009, 06:15 PM
Only one I ever heard round here is tight as ****'s *******.

--T

Chuck(G)
January 5th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Two more thoughts.

Check the hub clamp. One that's deformed or broken will sometimes clamp a diskette off-center and create all manner of trouble.

The other is sort of remote, but if you look at the underside of the drive, there are various screws, particularly two hex socket-head capscrews near the spindle flywheel. Make sure that they haven't loosened up, as they secure the whole carriage assembly.

Tandon TM-100s really weren't bad drives for their day, compared to some of the other garbage out there (e.g. MPI).

tezza
January 5th, 2009, 10:49 PM
Only one I ever heard round here is tight as ****'s *******.

--T

Oh well, regional variations. Ya gott love 'em! ;)

Tez

tezza
January 5th, 2009, 10:54 PM
Does anyone know of any (kaypro) CPM diagnostic software which measures alignment, etc.? I'm not talking about programs for use with a specific alignment disk, but rather ones that just use a formatted disk to run the tests.

For example, the TRS-80 Model III has a program called "Floppy Doctor" which can do quite a lot. It's a pity the only copy I can find is for the Model 3, otherwise I could try the faulty drive on my System 80. Alas, it's only a Model 1 clone.

Tez

Dr_Acula
January 6th, 2009, 03:43 AM
This is a dump of the Walnut Creek Kaypro directory. Some things sound vaguely useful but you would probably spot them quicker. I extracted the ISO so can send you any specific files if you like. Eg the diagnostics ones. Or the whole directory. Unless you already have all this of course.

256CRKT.UPD 2824 08-20-86 Corrected 256K Kaypro RAM circuit
256NEW.ANS 2611 08-24-86 Answer to Kaypro RAM upgrade problem
84KP256.LBR 26880 08-25-86 256K RAM for the KayPro '84's
84KP256A.ARK 13375 02-14-88 190K RAMdisk for '84 Kaypros - $40
ADVENT1.ARK 54784 09-20-86 No description available
ADVENT2.ARK 88704 09-20-86 No description available
ALTDRIVE.LBR 33408 06-05-85 Dynamic re-configuration of DSKDRV
ARTIE71.LBR 52352 01-17-88 Block graphic editor for Kaypro
ARTIST.LBR 20352 11-15-86 Drawing program for Kaypro in Turbo
AUTOBOOT.ARK 6396 03-13-88 AUTOBOOT.WS & MicroSphere ramdisk
AUTOBOOT.WS 7168 07-13-94
AUTOBOOT.WZ 3968 03-12-88 Tips on auto-start at Kaypro bootup
AUTOKEYS.LBR 7168 02-19-88 Configure Kaypro keypad
BIOSMR12.LBR 39808 10-07-85 Improved Kaypro BIOS fast/more storg
BRIEF-SQ.INF 1050 01-19-85 No description available
COMMANDS.INF 4992 07-13-94
COMMANDS.IQF 3456 02-09-85 No description available
COPY.TXT 2176 07-13-94
COPY.TZT 1408 01-30-88 Kaypro autoboot a command at startup
CPM-BOOK.INF 3584 07-13-94
CPM-BOOK.IQF 2560 02-09-85 No description available
CRHRDSFT.LBR 25088 08-14-86 WordStar <--> ASCII text conversion
CURSOR.LBR 4736 05-25-85 No description available
DCOM.TXT 1664 07-13-94
DCOM.TZT 1152 01-30-88 Uncovering some secrets of D.COM
DIRF37KP.LBR 26624 06-11-86 DIR list includes description
DKUG-DEC.INF 558 01-19-85 No description available
DSKDRV13.LBR 56448 06-05-85 No description available
DUALPORT.LBR 3712 12-21-86 Multiple console displays for Kaypro
DUMP-AT.COM 256 02-09-85 No description available
DUMP10.COM 384 02-09-85 No description available
DUMP1084.DOC 2992 07-21-84 No description available
DUMP1084.MAC 7552 07-13-94
DUMP1084.MQC 4480 02-09-85 No description available
DUMP24.COM 384 02-09-85 No description available
DUMP24.DOC 2871 07-21-84 No description available
DUMP24.MAC 4992 07-13-94
DUMP24.MQC 3328 02-09-85 No description available
DUMP484.COM 384 02-09-85 No description available
DUMPKP1.LBR 8192 03-15-88 Screen dump program for Kaypro 1
DUMPKP84.COM 384 02-09-85 No description available
DUMPREAD.ME 654 07-21-84 No description available
DVOAK.TQT 2432 06-11-86 No description available
DVORAK.TXT 3328 07-13-94
FASTTERM.LBR 4608 05-30-85 Fast terminal program for Kaypro
FILER.DTE 830 03-19-88 Perfect Filer patch for date problem
FLTKP100.LBR 4480 12-07-87 Kaypro transfer to/from TRS mod 100
FORMAT.TXT 4608 07-13-94
FORMAT.TZT 2688 01-30-88 Disk format options on Kaypros
GRAF2K10.LBR 33920 02-09-85 No description available
GRAFKII.LBR 31488 02-09-85 No description available
HARDDISK.TQT 3840 06-11-86 Add a hard disk to Kaypro-84 models
HARDDISK.TXT 6016 07-13-94
HARDNOTE.TQT 9344 07-13-86 Install harddisk on Kaypro /TurboROM
HARDNOTE.TXT 15360 07-13-94
HARNESS.TXT 4096 07-13-94
HARNESS.TZT 2432 01-30-88 Wiring harness problems with Kaypros
HOTKEY11.LBR 18048 05-18-88 Arrow/keypad redefinition program
INTPTCH3.LBR 4608 12-04-87 Kaypro FASTTERM/INTTERM improvements
IOCAPKP.LBR 17408 04-18-86 Captures console output for print
K-DIAL11.LBR 13824 01-20-87 Phone auto-dialer for Kaypro '84
K10CHESS.LBR 8320 01-29-88 No description available
K10TIME.LBR 8192 02-09-85 No description available
K10Z33.LBR 87808 06-15-88 ZCPR 33 install files for Kaypro 10
K16---K2.TXT 1152 07-13-94
K16---K2.TZT 640 01-30-88 Connecting a Kaypro 16 to Kaypro 2
K1KERM11.LBR 14208 07-16-88 Kermit-80 ver 4.05 - Kaypro 1
K1SCREEN.INF 3072 07-13-94
K1SCREEN.IZF 1792 11-29-87 Video escape sequences for Kaypro 1
K256BIOS.LBR 48256 06-28-86 Software needed for Kaypro 256K mod
K484TIMR.LBR 20608 02-09-85 No description available
K4SKETCH.LBR 21632 05-04-88 Draw lines and pixels on Kaypro '84
K4TIME11.LBR 3072 02-09-85 No description available
K4X.DOC 6656 07-13-94
K4X.DZC 3840 03-14-88 Enhancements for Kaypro
K4ZSYSIN.DOC 23424 07-13-94
K4ZSYSIN.DQC 15744 10-01-85 Implementing ZCPR3 on Kaypro 4-84
K83Z33.LBR 81408 06-15-88 ZCPR33 install files for Kaypro 83
KAY-DISK.INF 7424 07-13-94
KAY-DISK.IZF 3584 02-22-88 Kaypro floppy disk formats
KAY256.FIX 1093 08-15-86 Fix to Kaypro 256K RAM disk mod
KAY256.LBR 8448 05-26-86 Install 256k chips on the Kaypro IV
KAY256.MSG 1434 06-15-86 No description available
KAYAK.LBR 22656 01-24-88 Kayak race for Kaypro systems
KAYDIAG.LBR 44032 11-29-86 Diagnostics for Kaypro II & IV.
KAYEASEL.LBR 77824 03-22-87 Electronic graphics easel for Kaypro
KAYINFO.LBR 15360 11-29-86 Kaypro Information -- Keyboard etc.
KAYMAINT.TXT 4224 07-13-94
KAYMAINT.TZT 2560 03-16-88 Maintenance tips for Kaypro systems
KAYPRO.SPD 2789 11-21-83 No description available
KAYPRO10.REV 6074 02-02-84 No description available
KBSHW321.LBR 33152 02-09-85 No description available
KCHRSET1.LBR 13824 11-17-85 No description available
KP-ARROW.LBR 2304 05-02-88 Change values of Kaypro's arrow keys
KP-CALUP.LBR 11392 03-05-88 Kaypro phone rolodex/dialing utility
KP-CBOOT.DOC 4706 07-10-84 No description available
KP-EDIT2.LBR 14208 01-31-87 Small WordStar-like editor for Kpro
KP-HOST.LBR 118400 07-19-87 Files for remote system on Kaypro
KP-MEMBR.LBR 25088 03-22-87 Database manager for user groups
KP-PORTS.INF 2816 07-13-94
KP-PORTS.IQF 1664 02-09-85 No description available
KP-RADAR.LBR 15360 03-26-88 No description available
KP-UBIOS.MAC 13440 07-13-94
KP-UBIOS.MZC 6784 12-31-86 Kaypro BIOS for 'U' ROM
KP-VDUMP.LBR 1024 05-09-87 Screen dump for Graphic-type Kaypro
KP-VERSN.TXT 1408 07-13-94
KP-VERSN.TZT 640 02-20-88 Cross reference of Kaypro ROM/BIOS
KP-VT52.LBR 27648 09-06-85 VT52 terminal emulator for Kaypro
KP-ZDOS.LBR 9216 06-08-87 Kaypro Self-install CP/M look-alike
KP10BIOS.DOC 646 08-26-84 No description available
KP10BIOS.MAC 17664 07-13-94
KP10BIOS.MQC 11520 02-09-85 No description available
KP10MONY.LBR 64640 02-21-87 Money management package - Kaypro10
KP10USER.LBR 3200 02-06-87 MASMENU replacement for Kaypro 10
KP2-EDIT.LBR 6784 06-08-86 VDO-like text editor for Kaypro
KP4TIME2.LBR 13824 02-09-85 No description available
KPARKPAT.ARK 14495 06-04-88 Patch ARK02.COM for '84 Kaypro RTC
KPBUMPER.ARK 13409 12-04-87 No description available
KPBYE5.LBR 23040 06-03-87 RCP/M system for Kaypro
KPCLICK.LBR 1536 01-23-88 Turn keyboard click on/off on Kaypros
KPCLOCK.INF 914 01-19-85 No description available
KPCUR20.LBR 3072 07-28-87 Set shape of Kaypro cursor
KPCW.LBR 4736 05-22-86 Morse code practice using Kaypro
KPDD10.LBR 2432 07-29-87 Directory utility for the Kaypro
KPDEV.LBR 6272 11-10-86 Connecting printers, peripherals
KPDIAG.LBR 50048 10-01-86 Diagnostic utilities for the Kaypro
KPEDFONT.LBR 14592 05-16-88 Editor for Bradford font files
KPENG13.LBR 15616 05-31-87 Disk analysis program for Kaypro
KPFIXSEL.AQM 1536 12-11-86 Patch for select error on Kaypro
KPFIXSEL.ASM 2176 07-13-94
KPGRAFIC.TQT 13568 10-01-86 Info about graphics on the Kaypro
KPGRAFIC.TXT 22656 07-13-94
KPGRFCL1.LBR 3072 12-07-86 A graphic clock for the Kaypro
KPIMP245.LBR 17664 07-03-87 IMP 245 for Kayrpo with Avatex modem
KPINTRPT.MSG 1107 11-24-84 No description available
KPKBD.LBR 3072 12-31-86 Printable Kaypro keyboard templets
KPKER405.LBR 28160 03-22-87 No description available
KPLD517U.LBR 26112 08-19-87 Kaypro video text file display
KPLTIME.AQM 8832 10-21-86 TIME program for Kaypro with Legacy
KPLTIME.ASM 13312 07-13-94
KPMOVCPM.DOC 9600 07-13-94
KPMOVCPM.DZC 5120 12-28-86 Problems with Kaypro MOVCPM
KPNEWTRM.LBR 16256 01-31-88 Kaypro interrupt driven termnial pgm
KPNUROM.LBR 61312 01-27-87 Enhanced ROM for '83 Kaypros
KPPATCH.AQM 2432 02-09-85 No description available
KPPATCH.ASM 3328 07-13-94
KPRAMDSK.LBR 13696 12-25-87 Add 256K RAM disk to Kaypro '84
KPRESET.LBR 1920 06-05-85 No description available
KPRO-8IN.INF 601 01-19-85 No description available
KPRO-BBS.MSG 978 06-03-84 No description available
KPRO-BOS.INF 1054 01-19-85 No description available
KPRO-LAN.INF 1420 01-19-85 No description available
KPRO-NET.INF 1850 01-19-85 No description available
KPRO-VID.INF 897 01-19-85 No description available
KPROCNFG.DOC 1524 09-09-83 No description available
KPRODEMO.LBR 6784 01-24-88 Connect six Kaypros for demos
KPROLIST.BUG 1454 01-19-84 No description available
KPROTERM.INF 1794 01-19-85 No description available
KPRULE25.LBR 5888 03-07-87 Put column rule on Kaypro 25th line
KPSETKEY.LBR 3328 10-01-86 Keypad re-definer for Kaypro
KPSPEED.INF 828 01-19-85 No description available
KPTRCLK.LBR 2176 02-22-87 Caption for TurboRom time display
KPU87MOD.INF 2048 07-13-94
KPU87MOD.IQF 1378 01-10-88 Fix on early Kaypros for data errors
KPVID.LBR 2304 08-12-87 Kaypro programs use screen functions
KPVLU102.LBR 26752 01-24-88 Video library utility for Kaypros
KRAMDISK.TXT 47104 07-13-94
KRAMDISK.TZT 22656 02-26-87 Make most of Kaypro with a RAM disk
KSCREEN.INF 1954 11-15-87 No description available
KVIDTEX.LBR 32512 07-05-87 No description available
LAZY.TXT 5504 07-13-94
LAZY.TZT 2816 01-30-88 Fewer keystrokes for lazy Kuggers
LINE25KP.DOC 1764 01-30-84 No description available
M100-KP.ARK 22016 07-06-87 Kaypro <--> TRS100 file transfers
MASMENU.TXT 1920 07-13-94
MASMENU.TZT 1280 01-30-88 Thoughts on Kaypro's master menus
METAKEYS.LBR 12288 06-14-87 Redefine Kaypro's vector keys/keypad
MFDISK.INF 1757 02-02-84 No description available
MFDISK10.COM 21888 02-09-85 No description available
MFDISK2.COM 21632 02-09-85 No description available
MFDISK4.COM 22272 02-09-85 No description available
NCCP84.LBR 10112 12-11-86 CCP replacement for Kaypro 4-84
NDSKMSTR.LBR 39424 11-16-85 No description available
NEWRITKP.LBR 22912 12-27-86 Formatter for TOUR20
NORING.LBR 10496 02-28-89 Set Kaypro internal mdm answer mode
NSWP2-KP.INF 1810 03-18-84 No description available
OUTLINER.LBR 49792 09-21-87 Text outline processor
PAIRP.LBR 3200 12-21-86 Finds un-paired chars in PW files.
PCALC110.PAT 2688 07-13-94
PCALC110.PZT 1408 03-05-88 Use reverse video with Perfect Calc
PF2ASC.LBR 21120 04-19-88 Convert Perfect Filer files to ASCII
PFCTWRTR.LBR 72960 12-02-86 PD Utils for Perfect Writer.
PFLINES.TXT 896 07-13-94
PFLINES.TZT 640 01-30-88 Perfect Filer carriage returns
PHN21.LBR 4480 04-27-86 Modem Dialer and number lister
PIX11.LBR 6144 01-24-87 Play with Kaypro graphics
PRFCLCUT.LBR 61824 12-21-86 Utilities for Perfect Calc
PRFTCALC.LBR 30848 12-21-86 Utilities for Perfect Calc
PROFILES.LBR 27904 11-11-86 Index of PROFILE articles - June, 85
PW-SWAP.INF 1860 01-19-85 No description available
PW.TXT 1536 07-13-94
PW.TZT 1024 01-30-88 Printing PW documents
PWCOMNDS.INF 5760 07-13-94
PWCOMNDS.IQF 3968 02-09-85 No description available
QC10-V13.LBR 15744 10-13-85 No description available
RAMTOOLS.LBR 24576 05-05-87 RAM resident utility for Kaypro 4'84
RCP-BEST.INF 6784 07-13-94
RCP-BEST.IQF 4480 02-09-85 No description available
REALTIME.TXT 1664 07-13-94
REALTIME.TZT 1152 01-30-88 Accessing real time clock in Kaypros
RESTART.INF 1071 01-19-85 No description available
SAVECRT.LBR 5120 08-23-86 Turns off screen on video Kaypro
SD-QUIET.LBR 10752 01-24-87 SD mod to quiet Kaypro 2-84 keyboard
SETKP-IO.LBR 20480 01-24-87 Set Kaypro modem/printer serial port
SHAFT.LBR 2944 12-04-87 Demonstration of graphics on Kaypro
SIDEARM.LBR 15616 03-08-87 Limited notepad SideArm demo
SKIPMAP.LBR 23296 04-19-88 Skip rebuilding of allocation table
SSTAT-KP.LBR 7680 03-15-88 STAT replacement for Kaypros
STATLINE.LBR 15104 11-22-86 Turn Kaypro status line On/Off
SWCOPY23.LBR 13056 02-09-85 Single drive file copy program
TDD.LBR 38656 12-28-86 Kaypro Telecommuncation for the Deaf
TINKERK2.LBR 77184 10-01-86 No description available
TINKR484.LBR 107648 10-01-86 No description available
TOON12.LBR 13568 12-13-86 Kaypro II-'83 save screen to disk
TRANSKP4.LBR 41472 07-13-86 Transfer files between CP/M & MS-DOS
TROMHINT.LBR 2304 06-29-86 Advent TurboROM Kaypro video speedup
TROMPAT1.LBR 66432 07-13-86 No description available
TRPATCH1.LBR 27648 07-15-86 Patch software on Kaypro w/TurboROM
TRS2KPRO.TQT 3712 09-12-86 Pass data from Kaypro to TRS mod 100
TRS2KPRO.TXT 5504 07-13-94
TRSTATLN.LBR 8832 07-13-86 Enable/disable 25th line w/TurboROM
TURBKPEX.LBR 1792 07-13-86 Forces cold boot for harddisk start
TURBOROM.DOC 48384 07-13-94
TURBOROM.DQC 24064 07-13-86 Theory of the TurboROM's operation
TURBOSAF.LBR 6016 07-13-86 PARK heads of harddisk w/TurboROM
TURBOSCR.INF 2048 07-13-94
TURBOSCR.IQF 1664 11-11-86 'Slow screen' problem with TurboROM
TYPEKP84.LBR 38528 03-20-88 Touch typing tutor for Kaypro '84
UROMKEYS.ASM 5632 07-13-94
UROMKEYS.AZM 3456 12-31-86 Redefine function keys on Kaypro 'U'
VDE-FIX.LBR 2432 01-27-88 No description available
VT100KAY.LBR 16768 08-23-87 VT100 emulator for Kaypro
WS-KP25P.LBR 19072 12-21-86 IBM-style help line for Kaypro WS
WS-UROM.FIX 3584 07-13-94
WS-UROM.FQX 2560 08-16-86 Patch to WordStar for Z-system BIOS
WSKP.ARK 16384 11-29-87 Redefine keypad for Kaypro/WordStar

tezza
January 6th, 2009, 10:27 AM
Thanks,

Diagnostic files like
KAYDIAG.LBR
KPDIAG.LBR
KPENG13.LBR

certainly sound useful.

I've read about this archive but don't have it. Now I've got a Kaypro, it seems it would be a good thing to have. I seem to remember serveral postings in this forum on it, including a download link where you could get individual files.

Anyway, let me do a bit of digging around first and see if I can download them from somewhere. I'll then have to figure out how to get them into the Kaypro. I'm sure there is info on that somewhere.

Tez

Terry Yager
January 6th, 2009, 12:30 PM
I think you'll run into a Catch-22...you can't run the diag program till you get a drive working.

--T

tezza
January 6th, 2009, 02:35 PM
I think you'll run into a Catch-22...you can't run the diag program till you get a drive working.

--T

The A: drive works though? Couldn't I just run the program from the A: drive and target the drive/disk to be checked as the B: drive?

I used a similar diagnostic program on my Apple II+ recently to fix a drive. I ran the program on drive 1, but made the target drive 2 (the non-functioning one). If I remember correctly, it asked me to insert a known "good" formatted floppy (I had one I'd formatted before in drive 1) to check the drive 2 radial alignment with. It then gave me a measure of how much it seemed to be "off".

With that particular drive, it wasn't the alignment but rather the speed that was wrong. The diagnostic program gave me a graphical display of a speed scale showing the the test drive's speed and where it should be. It was WAY too fast! As soon as I adjusted it so it was where it was suppose to be, it worked just fine. From an apparenly broken apple disk drive to one that was fully working in one easy step.

I don't think speed is the problem with this Kaypro B drive, but a similar program might give me some more info.

Tez

Terry Yager
January 6th, 2009, 03:14 PM
Oh, so one drive is working now? I musta missed that. I don't know if it's any great help, but you might find the XAMN program useful. It's a disk editor, but you might want to use it to check what may or not be written to disks in the faulty drive. The program is included in S-BASIC source on the K-II disks, and can be compiled using S-BASIC.

--T

tezza
January 6th, 2009, 03:30 PM
Oh, so one drive is working now? I musta missed that. I don't know if it's any great help, but you might find the XAMN program useful. It's a disk editor, but you might want to use it to check what may or not be written to disks in the faulty drive. The program is included in S-BASIC source on the K-II disks, and can be compiled using S-BASIC.

--T

Yea, one of the drives has always worked ok. The format/verify tests I've been running have been from the cp/m format program on the working A: drive targetted at the faulty B drive.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Tez

Dr_Acula
January 6th, 2009, 04:15 PM
I got the walnut creek yesterday - there is a link on this very site in the cpm section with a last post mid December. So you don't have to go far. Thanks ++ to the person who has made this available. Had to unzip and then mount the ISO and then copy the files back onto the computer. Needed a few other bits of software to do that.

I say yesterday, because it was all of yesterday. And my broadband drops out whenever the phone rings so it was a bit tentative doing a 500Mb download at 15k/sec and hoping no-one would ring up wanting to sell fertilizer or a new phone plan.

How would I send you a couple of files? As an email attachment?

With all your vintage computers, do you have another kaypro that can be used to get files onto a floppy and onto this machine? Or some other mechanism?

tezza
January 6th, 2009, 04:32 PM
How would I send you a couple of files? As an email attachment?


Thanks, I'll PM you about this.




With all your vintage computers, do you have another kaypro that can be used to get files onto a floppy and onto this machine? Or some other mechanism?

No I don't have another Kaypro. I'm not exacty sure how to get the file across just yet, but I can get a Kaypro disk from a disk image. I've done this using Dave Dunfield's disk imaging program on my 386 MS-DOS PC. That's how I got a working Kaypro CP/M System disk.

Hopefully there is some way of getting a FILE onto a disk image. If I can do that, I can make another disk from it. Alternatively, I might be able to find a disk image with a comms program and use that to get it directly from the PC into a disk. This might be less messing around (I don't have to drag the 386 out).

I need to research it, but I'm assuming it can be done.

I'm happy to go looking but can anyone point me to some info on this off the top of their heads. It might even be in a sticky somewhere in this forum?

Tez

Dr_Acula
January 6th, 2009, 05:23 PM
Hmm - tricky. We need some help from the brains trust here.

I had a quick look at Dave's programs - there seem to be some other utilities as well and given this would not be an unusual thing to do, I wonder if adding/removing files from a disk image is hidden away in the software somewhere.

It would be a bit like the w.com and r.com programs on the altair SIMH simulator that 'write' and 'read' a program from the disk image to the pc.

tezza
January 6th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Hmm - tricky. We need some help from the brains trust here.

I had a quick look at Dave's programs - there seem to be some other utilities as well and given this would not be an unusual thing to do, I wonder if adding/removing files from a disk image is hidden away in the software somewhere.

It would be a bit like the w.com and r.com programs on the altair SIMH simulator that 'write' and 'read' a program from the disk image to the pc.

Yes, and like Jeff Vavasour's VREAD.CMD and VWRITE.CMD for jv1 disk images in the TRS-80 Model 1 world. As you say, they are essential utilities and I'm sure CP/M ones exist somewhere.

Tez

Terry Yager
January 6th, 2009, 07:38 PM
I don't rightly recall about Dave's program, but I do know it can be done with 22DISK, with which I'm more familiar, so there's still some hope.

--T

Chuck(G)
January 6th, 2009, 08:57 PM
I don't rightly recall about Dave's program, but I do know it can be done with 22DISK, with which I'm more familiar, so there's still some hope.


Thanks, Terry! :blush:

tezza
January 7th, 2009, 01:16 AM
I don't rightly recall about Dave's program, but I do know it can be done with 22DISK, with which I'm more familiar, so there's still some hope.

--T

Yes, thanks.

Tonight I hooked up that faulty Tandon drive to my TRS80 Model 1 clone (System 80) and tested it with NEWDOS.

Same problem, which is no surprise. Could not read disks formatted in other drives and a disk formatted in that drive could not be interchanged with others.

A write/verify test started to have trouble at about track 34. The interesting thing about the latter test is this one wrote, then read back each sector to verify, rather than writing out all the tracks, then reading them back in in one go, like the CP/M format program does.

Tez

MikeS
January 7th, 2009, 04:50 AM
Thanks, Terry! :blush:
-----------
Yeah, but are ya getting royalties?

mike

Dr_Acula
January 7th, 2009, 04:51 AM
Got the PM. Files on their way across the Tasman...

GADFRAN
January 7th, 2009, 08:08 PM
Hi all!

Tezza, glad my”long winded post” may be of some help.

1] From some inquiries from those new to Kaypros I have gotten, some feel one Kaypro is the same as another – so you really need to know what you really have [e.g., can’t get your car fixed if the mechanic doesn’t know all the specifics of just what model, version, modifications, etc. you have].

2] Since this thread can be very useful for those new to Kaypros, when they find it in the future, especially when they get an actual Kaypro to play with, it may be important for them to know that you have to “reset the disks” every time you remove and add new ones to the drive.

3] You can use the red reset button at the back of the Kaypro or use a Control-C - press the Control key while you press the C key. Mods put this reset button on the front panel for obvious reasons. Curious, Kaypro never did even with later models with the same type of computer case.

4] If you do not reset the disks, then you can get what appear to be disk drive errors.

5] So I am quickly noting this for those new users and not you experienced users.

6] Sometimes you just have to be reminded of the basics, especially when you are new to a computer system.

7] I am sure you and others familiar with Kaypros all know this very well. But those brought up with modern computers, this can seem very new and odd to them.

8] Due to some inquiries I have gotten, I am working on some detailed directions on just how to setup your Kaypro and start it up and shut it down for those who are new to Kaypros. When I get it done, I will post it here for any new people to Kaypros.

9] Took a quick look at the other postings and you new pictures. Your Kaypro looks pretty normal and the main board too and chips.

10] That type of drive shield is something I have never seen, but at least you have one.

11] The U87 two wire mod is ok – lower right corner of main board. It was something that was done by Kaypro in some later versions, since Microcornucopia discovered this helped to stabilize the system.

12] A Kaypro “1” not “I” [Roman numeral] was offered in the auction Erik posted about on this web site. A picture was included that is similar to the front of your Kaypro except there was no brightness control on this front panel. It also had half height drives.

13] I never heard of a “1” but there it is. It was apparently a later model. So there is precedent with Kaypro for this design. Therefore it looks like it is not some “very special” Kaypro that was built in small quantities that maybe had some special disk drive requirements. Also it is not something that someone modified in some special way.

14] The Kaypro “I” [Roman numeral] was apparently just a prototype that was never sold. It was before the Kaypro II in 1983.

15] You certainly seem to be approaching all this in a very logical, effective and efficient way. Hearty congrats! Although it can be frustrating at times when success does not come very quickly.

16] So it just looks like you need to just get a new drive or keep trying to fix this one.

17] I am sure we all will be interested in how it all works out and how you use your new Kaypro. Please keep us posted.

18] If I get any more possible useful thoughts from further reviewing all of these more recent posts and pictures, I will post my comments.

19] Yes, the controversy about socketed and not socketed chips!

20] In checking a Kaypro repair book from the 1980’s, the 1793 chip at U82 for the disk drives was something that many recommended to be replaced. Unfortunately, they noted at that time it cost $80!

21] So this helps with respect to the controversy of socketed and not socketed chips – each has its advantages and disadvantages.

22] I think JDR still sells many Kaypro chips for less than a $1 and sometimes only $0.25, since they were so commonly used in so many devices.

How times have changed.

Frank

P.S.

Did this quickly so please excuse any typos – my wife is an English major with very high standards so I have to be careful

GADFRAN
January 7th, 2009, 08:42 PM
You have lots of Tandons? Any TM-100-4M drives?

(AFAIK, Teac never made a 100 tpi drive)

================================================== ==
Chuck,

VC website still will not let me send you a PM, so I am trying email.

We just communicated thru the cctalk@classiccmp.org and all seems resolved.

But I am sending this email anyways to see if the vc website will let me do it.

I have been having some difficulties and even Erik does not know why.

Just discard it. Sorry to bother you, but I want to continue to check what it will and not let me do to try to track down the issue.

Erik sent a suggestion and that is what I am trying.

It just let me post a another response to Tezza with Erik's suggestion

===============================================

The following was the intended original reply -

Tandon 100-4M???

Chuck,

PM is probably best since this is not really on topic and I have already used up a lot of this site with my last post.

I do not know what the "4M" version is.

I only used the standard Tandons that the Kaypro used back then – TM100-2 and TM100 – 4 – 48 and 96 tpi.

You may want to check with Farris as I mention in my latest and other post, along with the results of some Google searches on Tandon disk drive availability.

Apparently they and of course the floppies are still used in many older systems, particularly the military I believe – so much for our updated military! But there may be some good reasons we should "not" know about.

I am not into what Tezza and some others are doing. It is very admirable!

I have many other projects going and have to make the best use of my time.

Also, I probably have some "old hidden bad memories" of the Tandon era!

As you said, they were great for their time and there were few other options.

Then came the Kaypro upgrades and the Teacs and I never looked back.

I cannot recall ever having an issue with a Teac, as opposed to that sinking feeling when a Tandon started to act up again and you started to quickly lose a lot of your work.

I repaired so many, but it was very sensitive to do such adjustments and they seemed to not last very long.

I do not know of any 100 tpi Tandons either that you mention in parentheses on your post as a "fake?"

I used the FD55GFR versions for the Kaypro upgrades so I could get "quad" high density 96 tpi also – a big improvement!

You can also contact me thru my website - www.kayprosts.org. I check my email a couple times a week and this site a couple times a month.

So all the best for 2009!

Frank

modem7
January 8th, 2009, 12:54 AM
Tandon 100-4M???
I do not know what the "4M" version is.
From http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs...don_TM100.html

TM100-1 is single sided 40 track
TM100-2 is double sided 40 track
TM100-3 is single sided 80 track, 96TPI; TM100-3M is the 100TPI version
TM100-4 is double sided 80 track, 96TPI; TM100-4M is the 100TPI version.

tezza
January 8th, 2009, 10:46 AM
You certainly seem to be approaching all this in a very logical, effective and efficient way. Hearty congrats! Although it can be frustrating at times when success does not come very quickly.


Thanks for the compliment. However, I wonder sometimes wonder what the boundary is between a repair challenge and an unhealthy obsession. :)

Problem is, vintage parts are not common in New Zealand and with shipping charges and currency exchange rates being the way they are it's often a matter of repair or do without. You can't just pick up another one for a few bucks.

Philip Avery (pavery on this forum) is paying me a visit on the weekend. Philip has had first-hand experience in calibrating drives and is going to take a look at the problem. We'll see what we can come up with.

Tez

GADFRAN
January 8th, 2009, 03:50 PM
Thanks for Tandon info - so much to learn, so little time, but fun all the way - so what is wrong with obsessions? They can keep you out of a lot of trouble.

Erik suggested I try somethings differently about getting on this website and so far they seem to be working.

So sorry for any inconvenience to all with some of my "odd" posts like to Chuck above.

I also could get into my profile and a picture - Kaypro II logo.

So we will see how it all goes.

Frank

GADFRAN
January 15th, 2009, 03:22 PM
Just a short one - in checking more of my files on Kaypros and some of Tezza'a disk drive issues, I found my info on this.

It is obvious if you check first - if you are adding half height Teacs in place of the Tandons on Kaypros, as you look at the half height Teac, on the left side - front and back - the disk drive bolts that hold the drive to the disk drive shield can just cut into the front and back pc boards on the Teac and cut a trace!

Naturally depends on which holes you have to use on the drives and the length of the bolts you are using - ! / 4 " or possibly 3 / 8 " inch might be the best, if you can get them.

Guess how I found out back in the early 1990's - out came the soldering iron after much investigation.

I used some spacer washers and solved the issue.

Much more info if needed, but this should alert you.

Frank

tezza
January 17th, 2009, 10:36 PM
Just thought I'd update this thread with the news that the offending drive is now working! This is a case where I needed a little "on-the-spot" help from my friends and it was Philip Avery (pavery on this forum) who provided the assistance and the tools.


Check the hub clamp. One that's deformed or broken will sometimes clamp a diskette off-center and create all manner of trouble.

This was indeed one of the issues. Not a broken disk clamp, but one with a ring of grey deposit around it (see blog entry below). Philip feels the lumpy bearing was binding and causing the clamp to slip & work in the hub. This caused variations in rotational speed & explain the numerous read/write errors received.

The radial alignment was also way out.

These two conditions explain the symptoms discussed in this thread. It's all fixed and working now! Many thanks to Philip and others who threw in suggestions. I know far more about drives that I used to!

Details of the diagnosis and repair have been written up as a blog entry (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-01-18-kaypro-drive-repair.htm).

Tez

Dr_Acula
January 18th, 2009, 05:22 PM
"All fixed and working"

That is great news. Do you now have the ability to get software onto that machine and run some programs etc?

Chuck(G)
January 18th, 2009, 06:50 PM
Good to hear that you managed to save the beast!

You know, during the first years of the 5.25" drive, hub clamps were one of those things like laptop hinges. Shugart owned the patent on the most reliable clamp and was loathe to license it. So every manufacturer had its own variation on the idea.

Micropolis probably made the most bullet-proof drives, but had one of the lousiest clamp designs. If you get a batch of old 5.25" floppies with wrinkles around the hub area, they probably came from a Micropolis drive. Eventually Micropolis figured out that briefly running the motor when a disk was being inserted helped a lot. At about the same time Dysan started adding that little reinforcing "doughnut" to the hub hole.

By the time 5.25" 1.2MB drives showed up, the clamping business had been sorted out, so the ring wasn't really necessary--although a few manufacturers continued to add them to HD media.

tezza
January 18th, 2009, 08:46 PM
"All fixed and working"

That is great news. Do you now have the ability to get software onto that machine and run some programs etc?

Yes. Dave Dunfield's disk images contain a lot of software. At some stage, I'll experiment with a serial port link to the PC, and see if I can transfer other programs that way.

A few more projects to get through before that though.

The aim is to have copies of the "Perfect" suite of software that was bundled with the machine. I'd like a copy of mbasic on there too. I think one of Dave's disk has this program on it.

Tez

Terry Yager
January 22nd, 2009, 05:22 PM
I'd like a copy of mbasic on there too.

Tez

Will you be needing that manual too? Perhaps Pat will consent to scan it, if I send it along. (I also have the Perfect Software manual for the Kaypro 1, but we don't want to put too much burden on poor ol' Paddy, now do we)?

--T

patscc
January 22nd, 2009, 05:54 PM
Sure, send it over. I'm gonna try a different approach to scanning and it'll be interesting to see if it works out.
Anytime I spend scanning it is probably going to be less than trying to find a working link to it online anyway. As long as I get them done by March 17th, that is.
I also want to try to run some OCR on them to get a text file along with the scan since I'm tired of flipping through pages of scanned images looking for something.
patscc

SteveH
January 24th, 2009, 02:53 AM
I also want to try to run some OCR on them to get a text file along with the scan since I'm tired of flipping through pages of scanned images looking for something.
Just curious, but what software do you use to combine the scanned images + OCR text?

Steve

Dr_Acula
January 24th, 2009, 04:02 AM
The altair simh has mbasic including the bascom compiler as well. I'm sure I've seen the manual somewhere on the net. I'm still excited about the Kaypro's sbasic. It is the easiest language I've ever used and that is compared to mbasic, vb.net, c and assembly. Does it belong on your machine given this:

S-BASIC is a native-code compiler for a "structured" dialect of
the BASIC programming language for 8-bit microcomputers having a
Z80 CPU and running under the CP/M operating system. S-BASIC
achieved a reasonably wide distribution as a result of being
included with the bundled software for the Kaypro II, IV and 10.
(Its creator, Gilbert Ohnysty, became Kaypro's chief of software
engineering).

tezza
January 24th, 2009, 08:40 AM
I also want to try to run some OCR on them to get a text file along with the scan since I'm tired of flipping through pages of scanned images looking for something.
patscc

patscc, if you scan at a high resolution you can get a PDF which is searchable. It's been a while since I've looked, but I/m fairly sure an option exists for the likes of Adobe acrobat which allows for a PDF of this nature (rather than converting to text).

Tez

tezza
January 24th, 2009, 08:42 AM
Will you be needing that manual too? Perhaps Pat will consent to scan it, if I send it along. (I also have the Perfect Software manual for the Kaypro 1, but we don't want to put too much burden on poor ol' Paddy, now do we)?

--T

Yes, I'd be interested in any downloadable manuals, mbasic, Pefect software or sbasic.

Sbasic certainly looks interesting.

Real copies of these manuals seem very rare.

Tez

prinz3nroll3
August 12th, 2009, 10:50 PM
Hello,
im an kaypro II owner.
i read the repair blog for the tm100.
i ve one question about the alligment.

what mean this:


This I determined from measurements during past service 'sessions' with my Model III. Adjusting the Adjustment Cam, after loosening the retaining screws (as detailed in the TM100 manual) brought up a nice big signal.

Where are the retaining screws?

My problem is:
An floppy which is great from an image with drive b, cant read from drive a.
although an floppy which is great from an image with drive a, cant read from drive b.
the kaypro wont boot from drive a, so i change the index00 position.
if i turn the screw back it wont read any floppy.
thanks a lot
greetings

pavery
August 13th, 2009, 01:13 PM
You would be best to find a TM100 manual (online?) which illustrates & details drive alignment procedures. The relevant parts of the manual are included in the TRS-80 Model III manual - hence my referral to my service sessions with my Model III. In the above blog I'm essentially doing what the manual says, but substituting a rare & expensive 'alignment disk' (which I don't have) with another Kaypro disk.

Have you an oscilloscope? Adjustment of radial retaining screws is pointless without one.

Your alignment problem is most likely radial, not the index 00 position. Try and put that back where it was.

Philip

prinz3nroll3
August 14th, 2009, 09:51 AM
Have you an oscilloscope? Adjustment of radial retaining screws is pointless without one.
Philip
Yes, i have an osci

prinz3nroll3
August 14th, 2009, 09:54 AM
hello again,
i ve different manuals.
tm100-14 product specification and users manual
tm 100 disk drive operating & service manual
tm100-2/2a technical service data for your disk drive.
i still searching for the alligment description

i ve found this desc.:


3.6.1.2 RADIAL TRACK ALIGNMENT
1) Select HD "0".
2) Loosen (do noit remove) the two module retaining screws on the bottom of the chassis, and the one at the top rear of module

But where are two module retaining screws at the top rear of module???

pavery
August 14th, 2009, 06:30 PM
hello again,
i ve different manuals.
tm100-14 product specification and users manual
tm 100 disk drive operating & service manual
tm100-2/2a technical service data for your disk drive.
i still searching for the alligment description

i ve found this desc.:

But where are two module retaining screws at the top rear of module???

Ok, besides the two screws underneath, there is only one retaining screw at the top rear of module. It is beside the Adjustment Cam. All three of mine were dabbed with green paint. My TRS-80 Model III manual has clear diagrams showing this - I'm surprised the original docs don't

Philip

prinz3nroll3
August 15th, 2009, 03:10 AM
Ok, besides the two screws underneath, there is only one retaining screw at the top rear of module. It is beside the Adjustment Cam. All three of mine were dabbed with green paint. My TRS-80 Model III manual has clear diagrams showing this - I'm surprised the original docs don't

Philip
hello,
i ve found the 3 screws. the first sector are great -> more than 0,3V peak peak
but behind sector 30 the signal is lower 0,3V.
format A: /1 works without an error
i copy at the disk command.com and imd.com
i can run command.com but imd (imagedisk start and an error occur)
i think there is an problem at the sector > 30.
what can i do?
will the sector00 adjust help?
thx a lot

pavery
August 15th, 2009, 03:35 PM
Ok, it's normal for those later tracks (>30) to read lower as there's less media passing under the head per track.

I'm assuming that you're aligning Drive A & that Drive B is fine. It is most necessary to bulk-erase a floppy, then format it in Drive B (in your case). Did you do this? I bulk-erase by passing a strong magnet all over the disk. It's necessary to do this so you don't pick up any previous tracks written to this disk when you're studying it on your scope.

You could well be a track out. Not only can a maladjusted Track00 sensor do this, but I *believe* the cam adjustment can adjust to the wrong track as well.

To verify that you're reading all 40 tracks, I step from Track 39 to Track 00 and ensure there is a signal on the scope for all tracks. Hence the need for a bulk-erased disk. If you're a track out, you won't be able to see either Track 00 or alternatively Track 39. When on Track 00, the Track00 sensor should be active.

I don't know if you're able to do this stepping on a Kaypro, Tezza & I didn't have the software, hence we used the TRS-80 Model III.

Philip
PS. I'm away from email Mon-Thur this week.

modem7
August 15th, 2009, 08:09 PM
You could well be a track out. Not only can a maladjusted Track00 sensor do this, but I *believe* the cam adjustment can adjust to the wrong track as well.
I can tell you from experience that that can be done on a TM-100-2A.

prinz3nroll3
August 16th, 2009, 02:12 AM
I can tell you from experience that that can be done on a TM-100-2A.

yeah plz do it!

modem7
August 18th, 2009, 02:50 AM
yeah plz do it!
I was confirming Pavery's statement that even with the Track 0 adjustment screw correctly set, it is possible to set the cam so that the radial alignment is out by a track.