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View Full Version : web-surfing on windows 3.1: Any good winsocks?



carangil
October 15th, 2009, 11:29 AM
Last night I got my newly build 486 system out on the web. I used trumpet Winsock on windows 3.1 and Netscape 4.07. I 'dialed' PPP over to my linux box, which ran pppd. I had a BD9 serial extension cable, and quick-hacked together a 3-wire null modem adapter.

Works great!

Except: I have the trial version of Trumpet! OOPS. It will expire soon.

So... here's my question... Anyone know of a good, free (or non-cripled shareware) winsock implementation for Win 3.1x? I don't need ethernet, I'm happy living with PPP; I can crank it up to 112500, which is way better than you would have gotten with a modem back then...

I tried Internet Explorer 5 for Windows 3.1... It won't recognize my null-modem as an actual modem.

Mike Chambers
October 15th, 2009, 06:25 PM
eek... well the first problem is that you're not using an ethernet card. get one! for 16-bit ISA, i prefer the 3Com 3C509-TPB.

kishy
October 15th, 2009, 06:42 PM
eek... well the first problem is that you're not using an ethernet card. get one! for 16-bit ISA, i prefer the 3Com 3C509-TPB.

I have a 286 which I'd like to get online. Running DOS 5 or 6.22 (I forget) and Win3.1 (WfW 3.11 needs a 386). Rather than make my own thread I figured I'd try to keep the relevant info in this thread (it's all closely related in the end), could you possibly point me in the right direction? I'm sure the advice to me will end up helping OP if/when they get an ethernet card.

Thanks

carangil
October 15th, 2009, 10:14 PM
Actually, I am posting my reply from the 486 :-) Vintage
internet! I am pleasantly surprised that this works well
without Javascript enabled. It's been a long time since
I've surfed around with Netscape.

Anyways, I have been considering getting an Ethernet card.
Setting up ppp to work without a response from a real
modem, and without proper handshaking was a little bit of
a challenge.

Even though I have bumped up the baud rate, I guess a bit of
CPU is being tied up doing the PPP protocol over serial;
ethernet should be much more effecient. I'll look into
getting an ISA ethernet card. I already have a VLB video
card in the mail.

minty
October 15th, 2009, 10:30 PM
Back in the mists of time, I used to be a reseller of Trumpet Winsock, so I almost certainly have a copy *somewhere* that won't expire. Somewhere. On a floppy. Do I have a drive? But if you're desperate, I'll rummage!

Alternatively, have a look at KA9Q, a DOS TCP/IP solution that should run on quite primitive stuff. Blimey, it's a long time since I've had to think about these things!

ZOBEX
October 16th, 2009, 06:41 PM
I don't find this all that odd. My first internet experience was with a 486/66 running Dos 6.22 with Win 3.11 and a 14.4 modem. That was my first access to eBay. I would not like to try a 14.4 modem on eBay now.

I would think the ultimate challange here would be to get an XT-10mhz to access craigs list or even this forum !




Actually, I am posting my reply from the 486 :-) Vintage
internet! I am pleasantly surprised that this works well
without Javascript enabled. It's been a long time since
I've surfed around with Netscape.

Anyways, I have been considering getting an Ethernet card.
Setting up ppp to work without a response from a real
modem, and without proper handshaking was a little bit of
a challenge.

Even though I have bumped up the baud rate, I guess a bit of
CPU is being tied up doing the PPP protocol over serial;
ethernet should be much more effecient. I'll look into
getting an ISA ethernet card. I already have a VLB video
card in the mail.

cgrape2
October 16th, 2009, 09:16 PM
I almost certainly have a copy *somewhere* that won't expire.

Yes please look,there are more than a few of us who would like it.
cgrape2

Mike Chambers
October 16th, 2009, 09:22 PM
I don't find this all that odd. My first internet experience was with a 486/66 running Dos 6.22 with Win 3.11 and a 14.4 modem. That was my first access to eBay. I would not like to try a 14.4 modem on eBay now.

I would think the ultimate challange here would be to get an XT-10mhz to access craigs list or even this forum !

i've gotten on this forum from here on a 4.77 MHz machine, using the Arachne DOS browser. let's just say i won't ever bother again. it takes a good 3+ minutes just to display google.com's front page.

i've also gotten on here using bobcat, which is text-only. that was more much more reasonable.

southbird
October 16th, 2009, 10:18 PM
i've gotten on this forum from here on a 4.77 MHz machine, using the Arachne DOS browser. let's just say i won't ever bother again. it takes a good 3+ minutes just to display google.com's front page.

Yup, that's my experience too (though I did it with a Tandy 1000 RL; not much difference.) Using IRC on the Tandy was pretty OK though. I wonder -- would it be impossible to get better performance "somehow"? Like could a carefully assembler optimized browser with some really clever trickery parse the HTML much faster and lay it out in better fashion?

Mike Chambers
October 17th, 2009, 11:53 AM
on a 486 DX2/66 w/ 64 MB of RAM i just installed Debian 3.0 "Woody" with KDE.

WOW IT IS FAST!!!!! much faster web browsing with konqueror than i even got with IE in NT 4.0...

http://rubbermallet.org/486web.png




do not bother with any newer debian or any newer distro at all for that matter. stick with kernel 2.2 on a 486, trust me. plus it can double as a web/ftp server and even local network storage device if you toss a big drive in and install samba. ;)

offensive_Jerk
October 17th, 2009, 12:29 PM
on a 486 DX2/66 w/ 64 MB of RAM i just installed Debian 3.0 "Woody" with KDE.

WOW IT IS FAST!!!!! much faster web browsing with konqueror than i even got with IE in NT 4.0...


do not bother with any newer debian or any newer distro at all for that matter. stick with kernel 2.2 on a 486, trust me. plus it can double as a web/ftp server and even local network storage device if you toss a big drive in and install samba. ;)


Nice! I will have to install that! I also have a 486DX2.

Mike Chambers
October 17th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Nice! I will have to install that! I also have a 486DX2.

it runs REAL nice, imo this is the best way to go on a 486 unless you are interested in DOS gaming of course. in the past, i've used debian 3.1 "sarge" as well and that was speedy too. it starts getting pretty slow if you install 4.0 etch or newer. i've bumped it up to larger res and 16-bit color now too. nice and smexy.

http://rubbermallet.org/486screenshot.png

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Ole Juul
October 18th, 2009, 12:00 AM
AFAIK Dillo doesn't have any dependencies. I wonder if it would run in that environment. I use it on large news sites to cut down on the crap and speed up the show. It doesn't do CSS but does render text and pictures really well and really fast.

offensive_Jerk
October 18th, 2009, 08:22 AM
AFAIK Dillo doesn't have any dependencies. I wonder if it would run in that environment. I use it on large news sites to cut down on the crap and speed up the show. It doesn't do CSS but does render text and pictures really well and really fast.

I was running DSL on my 486, but didn't really like it. DSL comes with Dillo and Firefox. Dillo is MUCH faster than firefox, at least on DSL.

carangil
October 19th, 2009, 10:06 AM
I've tried DSL before, and mostly liked it. I haven't tried running it on my 486 yet.

I have an update on my winsock-ness. I have installed an ethernet card, but am having trouble getting trumpet to recognize WINPKT. I think I may make the jump to WFW.

Is it correct to assume the IE does not come with TCP/IP for ethernet? I know it has a dialer w/ TCP/IP over PPP but when I select LAN as my connection method, it keeps trying to use trumpet.

I think I'll give a couple other TCP stacks a try, such as Chameleon. But, if it fails, I will fall back to WFW.

(I do have a win95 cd laying around that would work perfectly, but If I wanted the win95 feel, I'd just play around with my old win98 machine I have laying around. I want the 3.xx look.)

Starshadow
October 19th, 2009, 10:28 AM
I've ran DSL on my 486 ( Intel Overdrive, 48mb ram) once. On a 486, Dillo is the way to go, Firefox was just too slow.

carangil
October 19th, 2009, 10:58 AM
Not vintage, and not a PC, but I know very well the speed difference between Dillo and Firefox: I ran PS2 Linux for a while. Dillo was fast, whereas Firefox was almost unusable!

carangil
October 19th, 2009, 11:47 PM
I thought I'd post an update:

I got the ethernet card working with Trumpet. I was using the wrong version if WINPKT (I thought there was only one WINPKT shim in existence; the first one I tried was not trumpet compatible).

It is much faster than ppp/serial!

The card I am using is the 3com 3c509b-tp.


I have a 286 which I'd like to get online. Running DOS 5 or 6.22 (I forget) and Win3.1

Here is the good news for you: http://support.3com.com/infodeli/inotes/techtran/30fa_5ea.htm
It will work on a 286! I'm not sure if Trumpet (or any other winsock) will work well/at all on a 286, but at least you could get DOS stuff going.
I got my card from http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/11035
I think on a 286 that would be the way to go, since serial PPP seems to eat up a lot of CPU.

swaaye
October 20th, 2009, 02:24 PM
Heh yeah I was going to suggest that Win 3.x is a horrific OS for web browsing. It just loves to crash. Some video drivers seem to have problems with WWW browsing and like to implode the whole OS. :)

That Linux setup looks quite nice though!

IBMMuseum
October 20th, 2009, 02:33 PM
Heh yeah I was going to suggest that Win 3.x is a horrific OS for web browsing. It just loves to crash. Some video drivers seem to have problems with WWW browsing and like to implode the whole OS. :) ...

I was able to duplicate a particular Cirrus video card and driver under Windows 3.1 that would blue screen every time the customer went to our homepage (other pages I tried at the time were fine). The solution? Without changing anything she ended up not able to go onto our site.

carangil
October 20th, 2009, 03:02 PM
Yeah, after browsing around with it for a little while, it is rather horrific.

My main intention to getting internet up on it was mostly to get TCP/IP working. Now I can FTP files to/from my other computers, instead of burning a cd / copying a floppy every time. It's also good enough for AIM (1.0!) and IRC.

wolfie
October 22nd, 2009, 10:15 PM
i have 2 486's running windows 98. they don't run too bad with win 98. i was using one of them as a web server 3 months ago. i had to use vnc because i couldn't get a mouse to work.

southbird
October 22nd, 2009, 10:41 PM
"Yeah, that Windows 98 is pretty amazing. Of course, I can't get a mouse working, but still, amazing." :)

TandyMan100
October 23rd, 2009, 04:13 AM
i have 2 486's running windows 98. they don't run too bad with win 98. i was using one of them as a web server 3 months ago. i had to use vnc because i couldn't get a mouse to work.
What server software did you use under 98?? :o

linuxlove
October 23rd, 2009, 05:57 AM
using 95, I just used Apache 1 during the brief period i had my 486 set up as a web server.

wolfie
October 23rd, 2009, 09:15 AM
What server software did you use under 98?? :o
i used Apache HTTP Server 2.0.63. funny enough i had to turn the computer on to find out lol.

"Yeah, that Windows 98 is pretty amazing. Of course, I can't get a mouse working, but still, amazing." :)
i use an optical usb mouse on my other 486 and it works great. i don't think my com ports work on the one 486.

carangil
October 23rd, 2009, 09:18 AM
I have been considering making my system dual boot. Either win 95 and dos or dos and Linux. I have not yet decided which quote to go. I already have a nice win 98 and Linux macine set up, so it would almost be redundent.

How much ram did you have in your win 98 machines, and what speed were they?

wolfie
October 23rd, 2009, 09:34 AM
i had 64mb of ram in the one i used for server and i think there is 36mb in the other. the server had 100mhz and the other had a 66mhz dx2.
since i had the server fired up i'm going to leave it on for a bit. heres a link http://486.ath.cx:81/

southbird
October 23rd, 2009, 10:38 AM
i use an optical usb mouse on my other 486 and it works great. i don't think my com ports work on the one 486.

I was just teasing if you couldn't tell ... I've had various issues with hardware under 98, but I don't think a mouse was ever one of them! Also was reminded of Bash #724316 (http://www.bash.org/?724316)

wolfie
October 23rd, 2009, 11:33 AM
I was just teasing if you couldn't tell ... I've had various issues with hardware under 98, but I don't think a mouse was ever one of them! Also was reminded of Bash #724316 (http://www.bash.org/?724316)
i knew you where just teasing. i know windows aint the greatest but i am not too familiar with the other older OS's. i've never had a problem with a mouse as long as it was plugged into a ps2 or usb port. now com ports is a totally different story. i've had alot of problems with com ports. i have learned my way around a keyboard pretty good:cool:.

carangil
October 23rd, 2009, 11:49 AM
If you have the right OS (win98 or linux), does USB even work on a 486? My guess is on a PCI bus 486 it might; but is there such a thing as an ISA/VLB usb card?

(Interesting enough, I did find the opposite: http://www.arstech.com/item--usb2isar.html )

wolfie
October 23rd, 2009, 12:24 PM
If you have the right OS (win98 or linux), does USB even work on a 486? My guess is on a PCI bus 486 it might; but is there such a thing as an ISA/VLB usb card?

(Interesting enough, I did find the opposite: http://www.arstech.com/item--usb2isar.html )
this is what i use for my mouse on my 486. i don't know if it would work for anything else. my server is the only 486 i have ever found with pci slots. i don't think they are as common.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:KPjstgQXxYwE1M:http://www.ted-kyte.com/3D/Pictures/Adaptor%2520PS2%2520-%2520USB.jpg

ZOBEX
October 26th, 2009, 12:17 AM
You realize what this means don't you ?? You can run your MFM or RLL hard drive off a USB port.




this is what i use for my mouse on my 486. i don't know if it would work for anything else. my server is the only 486 i have ever found with pci slots. i don't think they are as common.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:KPjstgQXxYwE1M:http://www.ted-kyte.com/3D/Pictures/Adaptor%2520PS2%2520-%2520USB.jpg

wolfie
October 26th, 2009, 06:51 AM
You realize what this means don't you ?? You can run your MFM or RLL hard drive off a USB port.
i have not a clue what you mean. i would sooner just install another internal hard drive.

krebizfan
October 26th, 2009, 07:14 AM
If you have the right OS (win98 or linux), does USB even work on a 486? My guess is on a PCI bus 486 it might; but is there such a thing as an ISA/VLB usb card?

There were several ISA USB cards manufactured. The only one I could find a current link to is http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB1161ISA/

I have no idea if this or any of the competing designs I recall will work with a given OS or hardware. Never tried it and the price quoted to me was enough that buying new systems was more cost effective.

Lord Moz
October 26th, 2009, 08:59 AM
I have a 286 which I'd like to get online. Running DOS 5 or 6.22 (I forget) and Win3.1 (WfW 3.11 needs a 386).

Actually, WfW3.11 works just fine on a 286, as I have done this myself. You just need to get a copy of win.com from win3.1 and copy it into the wfw3.11 installation. It's a hack, but it works. Obviously, the 286 won't support 386 enhanced mode, but there are plenty of programs (probably most) that work fine in regular protected mode.

I'm sure there is a way to modify wfw3.11's win.com, but at the time (lots of years ago) I found it easier to just use a win.com from a win3.1 install.

If I remember correctly, each time you run windows setup, it rebuilds win.com according to your current configuration, so you should probably have the wfw installation match the 286's as close as you can before you copy the win.com over.

If you want to try and need any help, just let me know.

Good luck ;)

carangil
October 26th, 2009, 09:35 AM
Actually, WfW3.11 works just fine on a 286, as I have done this myself. You just need to get a copy of win.com from win3.1 and copy it into the wfw3.11 installation.

Does anyone know if the TCP/IP drivers included in WfW 3.11 will run in 'standard mode?'

kishy
October 26th, 2009, 10:18 AM
I thought I'd post an update:

I got the ethernet card working with Trumpet. I was using the wrong version if WINPKT (I thought there was only one WINPKT shim in existence; the first one I tried was not trumpet compatible).

It is much faster than ppp/serial!

The card I am using is the 3com 3c509b-tp.

Here is the good news for you: http://support.3com.com/infodeli/inotes/techtran/30fa_5ea.htm
It will work on a 286! I'm not sure if Trumpet (or any other winsock) will work well/at all on a 286, but at least you could get DOS stuff going.
I got my card from http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/11035
I think on a 286 that would be the way to go, since serial PPP seems to eat up a lot of CPU.

OO I HAVE AN ETHERLINK III SOMEWHERE!
(going hunting for it...now...)

3C5090-TPO

Now, I do have a D-Link card installed currently that has support for 3.1 if I recall correctly...I just have to find that ISA config utility that came with it since it's a PnP card but can be configured by software in non-PnP systems.


Actually, WfW3.11 works just fine on a 286, as I have done this myself. You just need to get a copy of win.com from win3.1 and copy it into the wfw3.11 installation. It's a hack, but it works. Obviously, the 286 won't support 386 enhanced mode, but there are plenty of programs (probably most) that work fine in regular protected mode.

I'm sure there is a way to modify wfw3.11's win.com, but at the time (lots of years ago) I found it easier to just use a win.com from a win3.1 install.

If I remember correctly, each time you run windows setup, it rebuilds win.com according to your current configuration, so you should probably have the wfw installation match the 286's as close as you can before you copy the win.com over.

If you want to try and need any help, just let me know.

Good luck ;)

Hmm...I will try this eventually, but if I can get 3.1 working appropriately I won't bother.

carangil
October 26th, 2009, 11:24 AM
My card was also PnP. It was easily configurable through the EtherDisk Utility. The latest DOS-Happy version seems to be EtherDisk 6.0 (If you can't find it, get EtherDisk 6.1: Disc 2 of this set is EtherDisk 6.0! 3com has all this stuff still up for download.)

(Also, my SB16 is PnP. The Creative PnP manager seems to coexist OK with the 3com one. I was really worries about it at first, ISA PnP sometimes seems like the computer industry's 'beta test' for PCI PnP. )

Other notes:

-You only need to run the 3com configuration once: once you set the IRQ and such, and disable PnP, the card will remember the values. (At least my model did.) (Which is convenient, because my SB16 doesn't remember anything; I need to load the reconfigurer every boot in autoexec.)

-You don't need to install any of the 3com netware nwclient or windows support stuff. Just copy PKTDVR somewhere.

-To use PKTDVR in Windows, you need WINPKT. There seems to be different versions of this file. Since I am using Trumpet, I used the Trumpet version. Which version are you intending on using?

-If you have WFW3.11, there is a native windows driver for this card on the etherdisk, but it's 386+ only, sorry :-(

BTW: I'm temporarily solved my trumpet problem by screwing with the date on my system. (But this is stupid, haha.)

ZOBEX
October 26th, 2009, 12:20 PM
i have not a clue what you mean. i would sooner just install another internal hard drive.

It's not a question of is it practical, as why would anyone still work with XT to 486. It's a question of will it work. Since MFM is self contained in the HD with the ISA controller and since the working unit is addressed via USB as a working unit, a USB connection should be able to talk to the HD and controller card on the end of the USB connection. It's an exercise in engineering.

nymetropolitans
November 27th, 2009, 08:25 AM
Yup, that's my experience too (though I did it with a Tandy 1000 RL; not much difference.) Using IRC on the Tandy was pretty OK though. I wonder -- would it be impossible to get better performance "somehow"? Like could a carefully assembler optimized browser with some really clever trickery parse the HTML much faster and lay it out in better fashion?

I know this is kinda "cheating", but there is a public Lynx client available at lynx.scramworks.net that can be accessed by any machine with an ANSI enabled telnet program. This is infinitely faster than running a browser natively under DOS/Win 3.x....in fact the first web browsing I did at home was on a 1000RLX (286) with a 2400bps modem dialing into a local library that provided the same service. It was incredibly fast considering the hardware, and I could still download files (including embedded images) to my PC. That was around 1995/1996 and there were tons of Lynx servers back then...this is supposedly the last one on the net.

If it ever goes down, it'd be possible to setup the same thing in your house if you've got a *nix system serving Lynx - though I'm not sure exactly how it's done....I don't understand anything about xterm yet. This functionality does not exist in the DOSLynx or Win32 versions.

It's a shame there was never a Lynx port for 16-bit Windows, it is really brilliant in it's simplicity. Your best bet is IE 5.01, which really blows. I've played around a lot with different browsers and Win 3.x (and NT 3.x) in Virtual PC but it's buggy as hell.