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Jorg
June 5th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Anybody got (a pointer to) a IBM XT (5160) Diagnostics disk?

Jorg
June 6th, 2005, 08:14 AM
Hmm.. does this mean that they don't exist? How do I enter my HD parameters then?

mbbrutman
June 6th, 2005, 10:05 AM
The diagnostics disk will test the machine. But unlike an AT, there is no CMOS, so there is no setting up the HD parameters using the diagnostics (or BIOS).

On an XT the setup is done right on the controller card. The controller card generally supports a small number of configurations. You need the controller card docs.

If you are installing something that the machine or controller doesn't understand, you might be able to use part of the full capacity. I'm not sure that drive overlay software works on machines that old.


Mike

Jorg
June 6th, 2005, 10:40 AM
Hmm.. my memory fades.

Thing is, the XT gives some error messages at boot (601), and I can't access the HD (it does spin up).

I tried a low level format with the parameters I remembered (debug -g=c800:5, g=c800:6, and g=c800:ccc) - nothing happens.

Now you say it, I think the low level format prog should ask for the cylinders, IIRC.

Anyway the diag disk should come in handy to find out whats wrong..

DimensionDude
June 6th, 2005, 10:57 AM
Jorg,

mbbrutman is correct, the controller card takes care of the hd setup. Normally, the card used to set up the drive and the drive stayed together.

I'm assuming that we're talking about the old ST412/ST506 interface here, and not IDE.

Some controller cards (like the Western Digital WD1004-27X) had jumpers to set the drive type (4 types on the WD), other cards had a BIOS advanced enough to operate any drive that was set up by that card (Seagate ST11M and ST11R).

There are exceptions, of course, but generally a drive set up on one controller card will be unreliable when used with another card, even the same model.

Kent

Jorg
June 6th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Jorg,

Some controller cards (like the Western Digital WD1004-27X) had jumpers to set the drive type (4 types on the WD), other cards had a BIOS advanced enough to operate any drive that was set up by that card (Seagate ST11M and ST11R).

Kent

Yes, I was talking about MFM- its an original ibm 5160.
Let me pull out the card and take a look at it...

Its a full length card that says:

IBM 1501492

it has a zilog 80A on it, and an AMI chip (bios?)

'may 23, 1985'

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2005, 11:22 AM
That card does not have ll formatting program in ROM, and only works with certain models of hard drives.

--T

Jorg
June 6th, 2005, 11:25 AM
That card does not have ll formatting program in ROM, and only works with certain models of hard drives.

--T`

hmm.. so i need a program for it? How do I do format it then?

--hmm this forum needs a chat room.. :p )

barryp
June 6th, 2005, 12:43 PM
hmm.. so i need a program for it? How do I do format it then?

In my (limited) experience, Ontrack Disk Manager works very well, both to diagnose and to install.

mbbrutman
June 6th, 2005, 01:37 PM
There has to be a utility program floating around that can do a low level format on the drive.

I'm looking at the BIOS listing for the controller ROM extension, and it does not have a user routine built in. Normally it would be at C800:5, but that might only be for 3rd party controllers like the Western Digital controller found on the AT and clones. On controllers that support that in the BIOS you enter in the driver number to format (one of two possible drives) and the interleave factor.

The original XT controller (Xebec or compatible) apparently doesn't do that. So it's either going to have a utility on the diagostics disk or on the advanced diagnostics disk. (I think there is such a thing ... it might have come with the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual.)

My memory is too foggy on this .. Does anybody have a utility runable from DOS that can do this?

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2005, 02:20 PM
I don't have, but I remember there used to be a few freeware/shareware LL format progs around that I have used in the past. A search of your favorite DOS freeware site should turn up something useful.

--T

mbbrutman
June 6th, 2005, 02:24 PM
This same exact question just came up on the ClassCmp mailing list. The answer is that the official low-level format routine for the XT class controller is on the IBM Advanced Diagnostics Disk.

I *don't* have one of these - does anybody have one they can make an image of?

Mike

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2005, 02:43 PM
This same exact question just came up on the ClassCmp mailing list. The answer is that the official low-level format routine for the XT class controller is on the IBM Advanced Diagnostics Disk.

I *don't* have one of these - does anybody have one they can make an image of?

Mike

No gots for the XT, all I can dig up is the AT DiagDisk, if ya think that'll help. (I don't remember if it's HD or not).

--T

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2005, 03:28 PM
Ok, so I just managed to dig up a disk labeled Landmark Service Diagnostics, Version 2.13.18, XT 8088. I don't have a machine set up to check it with right now, but I'll try to get to it a little later on. IIRC, this is a program we used to use to bench-check computers, and it probably has LL format program on it. I also found 3 different versions (3.2, 3.5, 4.0) of Ontrack Disk Manager & Diagnostics, which I'll also check later.

--T

Micom 2000
June 6th, 2005, 08:12 PM
A good proportion of my boxes were(are) IBMs and ISR using Disk Manager (early version)on it. Also "Spin Doctor" which can get a little hostile if you haven't paid the reg. fee or use an RLL HDD.

I have several IBM XTs. If pressed I can dig them out and explore them.
Part of it depends on what HDD is in there. It might even be as simple as toggling one of the mini-switches on the mother-board. I don't remember it as being a major problem unless you intended installing an RLL drive.

One of my XTs is fitted with an Intel 386 upgrade and IIRC an interface for an IDE HDD. All of it is done external to the CPU. No BIOS mods IIRC.

Lawrence

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2005, 08:29 PM
Trouble is, the earliest version of DM that I found is still in factory shrink-wrap. so I'll probably not open it, but hope the v. 3.5 does the trick.

--T

Micom 2000
June 6th, 2005, 08:32 PM
DAMN !! I miss BBS's and the neighborliness of FIDO.

No disrespect to this excellent forum Eric. It approaches the collegiality of some of the BBS's and FIDO forums, but ?!?! I don't know, somethings missing. Perhaps the speed of transmisiion or the lack of a cantankerous
moderator. :^ /

Lawrence

Micom 2000
June 6th, 2005, 08:56 PM
I've been meaning to rationalise my hundreds of 5 1/4 floppies. Perhaps this gives me an excuse. Should you find a solution to your problem Jorg,
please don't tell me. It would only give me an excuse to waffle. I do think I have an early version of DM and also Spin Doctor that might solve your problems. Let me look and send you some files, but again, don't inform me if it works. Prevarication is a sin which is only heightened by success.
Contact me by PM and we'll see if my close-kept copies work. ISTR it was meant for Seagates but worked on other HDDs.


Trouble is, the earliest version of DM that I found is still in factory shrink-wrap. so I'll probably not open it, but hope the v. 3.5 does the trick.

--T

mbbrutman
June 7th, 2005, 06:51 AM
Web forums are nice, and I like Usenet too having been a Usenet user for 15 years. However, I miss BBSes.

Some year when I get the time the PCjr is going to run a BBS again. Except this time it will be telnet connected. (I've got an Ethernet adapter ... I've got a packet driver. I just need some quality time with the C compiler!)



Mike

Jorg
June 7th, 2005, 08:54 AM
Part of it depends on what HDD is in there.

Lawrence

Wow.. guys, thanks for all the thought-time already. Amazing community we got here.

I tried the AT diag disk (2.07) but that doesn't work (Error: this machine is not an IBM AT- obtain the correct disk for your machine)

As for the disk: it is a 5.25" full height ST-412

Capacity: 10.0 MB
Speed: 3600 rpm
Average Read Time: 85 ms
Cylinders: 306
Heads: 4
Sectors: 17

Terry Yager
June 7th, 2005, 10:15 AM
I didn't get to the disks last night, and today's not looking real promising either (graduation day, I'm tied up till late-nite hours). Tomorrow, I should be able to do something. My computer that I use for making disk images is very seriously buried, and I'm not up to digging it out, so I'll use a different, unburied computer to make copies of the disks. If you'll pm me your snailmail, I'll send off the copies to you.

--T

Jorg
June 7th, 2005, 10:58 AM
I didn't get to the disks last night, and today's not looking real promising either (graduation day, I'm tied up till late-nite hours). Tomorrow, I should be able to do something. My computer that I use for making disk images is very seriously buried, and I'm not up to digging it out, so I'll use a different, unburied computer to make copies of the disks. If you'll pm me your snailmail, I'll send off the copies to you.

--T

Hold on- I found this: (but appreciating your help tremendously, no doubt!)
http://www.computercraft.com/docs/prog.shtml

Ignore the ads- there is a program called hdat.com down there.
I'm trying it now and it seems to be able to access the disk.

*UPDATE*

:cry: :cry:
Only a few bad sectors... but track 0 sector 0 is one of them.. :oops:

Terry Yager
June 8th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Well, holler if ya still need it. I dug out an XT Guide To Operations, complete with the Diagnostic disk. I can send you a copy, or if you'd prefer, sell ya the manual and disk for five bucks.

--T

mbbrutman
June 8th, 2005, 01:41 PM
It's going to be the wrong disk - he needs the Advanced Diagnostics, which came with the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual.

Terry Yager
June 8th, 2005, 02:37 PM
It's going to be the wrong disk - he needs the Advanced Diagnostics, which came with the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual.

Ok, good...I'll look for one of those too.

--T

Jorg
June 11th, 2005, 02:55 AM
It's going to be the wrong disk - he needs the Advanced Diagnostics, which came with the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual.

Ok, good...I'll look for one of those too.

--T

I was able to find DiskManager and used that:

The ST-412 is dead, sadly enough. Its giving seek and read errors without end. Too bad, as it was the original one.

If anyone is interested for the circuit board or something tell me.

I had no problems installing some other MFM disks on the machine so it really is the harddisk..
I now installed a Miniscribe 8425 20 mb MFM drive that I had lying around- but its just not the same...

Thanks a lot for all support!

Terry Yager
June 11th, 2005, 06:46 AM
A moment of silence for the deceased drive...

--T

mbbrutman
June 22nd, 2005, 12:52 PM
I have Advanced Diagnostics for the PC if anybody needs it. It will low level format the hard disk.


Mike

billdeg
October 18th, 2005, 06:45 PM
Before you give up, try SPINRITE...this has saved many a XT-era hard drive when nothing else would work.

mryon
October 19th, 2005, 07:37 AM
I miss the BBSs as well but at least I don't have to worry about using up my alloted time on this forum. ;)

or forgetting to bank my unused time.

ahhh BBS, yeah they were fun ;)

Jorg
October 19th, 2005, 08:02 AM
Before you give up, try SPINRITE...this has saved many a XT-era hard drive when nothing else would work.

unfortunately I think I don't have a copy of spinrite (anymore)