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Tupin
April 10th, 2010, 08:13 PM
Okay, so I have a pretty basic Tandy 1000 with a memory expansion card so it has 640k, a 5.25 inch drive, and a 3.5 inch drive that I believe is 720k. I would like to put in a hard drive and install MS-DOS 3 on it, but I'm not sure what I need to do. Plus, is there a way I can copy files from a modern PC onto a 3.5 inch disk and use them in the 1000?

One final question: Would this work and allow me to use the multitude of Gameport joysticks on the 1000?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-PC-XT-8-bit-ISA-Game-Joystick-Card-NEW_W0QQitemZ230372256827QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item35a341ac3b

Tupin
April 11th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Still need help on this, plus I found this ISA card:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330263100108&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

What would I need to do to get either of these running on a 1000? I want to use a serial mouse/Gameport joysticks.

k2x4b524[
April 11th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Tvdog, he has a VERY extensive tandy resource site with many how-to's and such

http://www.oldskool.org/guides/tvdog

NathanAllan
April 11th, 2010, 03:51 PM
Only from memory, there are MFM hard drive upgrade cards, parallel port cards, CD rom plus card kits, all kinds of things for Tandy specifically. Which 1000 is it? Pics!

Tupin
April 11th, 2010, 04:25 PM
Here's a picture of it:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x28/TUPPYLUVER95/IMG_2775.jpg

It's an original 1000. It has composite out, and 640k.

How would I take the Tandy 1000 files that I download and load them on an original system?

NathanAllan
April 11th, 2010, 05:05 PM
Cool! I love the keyboards in particular, they have personality. I have the same joystick, these are such fun machines. Do you have the deskmate software for it?

As far as the 1000 goes, I actually compared it to the Xbox360 in that this one has intelligence behind the cooling system, and that we've known about how to have good cooling for a long time. Tandy used to make really cool machines.

/edit We were posting at the same time. You can use a machine with a similar disk drive or format it at 720K and transfer that way. There's also serial transfer, need a crossover serial cable (null modem) or all-out ethernet, if you can find one that will work with it. I'd try on Win98 if you have a machine with it on it. I've had good luck formatting floppies in 720K more than anything newer.

Tupin
April 11th, 2010, 05:47 PM
I can format disks in 720k even on my modern PC, but I'll have to try on my Windows 98.

I don't have Deskmate, all that has been running in this was DOS 3.1 and literally nothing else. I'm looking at a couple of games on eBay like Alien Syndrome and Sim City, but I think I should add a serial port expansion card to use a serial mouse. I could also add a Gameport adapter, since I have two open ISA slots.

Do those just plug in and work, or do they need installation?

mikey99
April 11th, 2010, 06:21 PM
I have a Tandy 1000 SX with the same setup , 3.5 inch and 5.25 inch floppies.
Mine also has a Tandy hard card, I think its 20MB. Looks like a standard small
Miniscribe hard drive mounted on a metal frame with a Western Digital controller
card.

Tupin
April 11th, 2010, 06:25 PM
Any pictures of your setup?

I just formatted some floppies on Windows 98 and tried to run them in the Tandy 1000, and it gives me a "file not found" error when I try to pull up the directory of the B: drive. :(

vwestlife
April 11th, 2010, 07:24 PM
I just formatted some floppies on Windows 98 and tried to run them in the Tandy 1000, and it gives me a "file not found" error when I try to pull up the directory of the B: drive. :(
That is normal when the disk is blank and has no files on it yet. :)

I also have an original Tandy 1000. It is possible to add a hard drive, but it's really not ideal, due to the limited number of expansion slots and drive bays. So you really already have the ideal configuration: 640K RAM, and 5.25" and 3.5" floppy drives. And an official Tandy monitor and joystick, too!

You could replace the 8088 chip with a NEC V20 for a slight performance boost (10% to 30%) and improved compatibility with newer DOS programs (many which would otherwise require a 286 or higher will also run on a V20), but those are getting hard to find and expensive.

Tupin
April 11th, 2010, 08:03 PM
It did have files on it, ones downloaded from DOS game sites.

Might have to look for a V20 chip. Is this what I need?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEC-D70108C-8-V20-Chip-Plastic-Dip-Package_W0QQitemZ350320734509QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5190be312d

vwestlife
April 11th, 2010, 08:34 PM
It did have files on it, ones downloaded from DOS game sites.

Might have to look for a V20 chip. Is this what I need?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEC-D70108C-8-V20-Chip-Plastic-Dip-Package_W0QQitemZ350320734509QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5190be312d

Yes... in fact, I had my eye on the ceramic V20 from that seller. In your case, the Tandy runs cool enough that you'd be just fine with the cheaper plastic version, especially since you'd be underclocking the chip at only 4.77 MHz vs. its rated speed of 8 MHz.

NathanAllan
April 11th, 2010, 09:52 PM
Check that disk, and also run a head cleaner through both drives. I think there is a setting somewhere in Win98 that you can tell it how to format, probably in the format command. Also you may want to try to format it in a DOS window, http://www.computerhope.com/formathl.htm, there's a site to some more info if you need it.

What I would really love to find is a SCSI card for mine, and a nice heavy enclosure for a full height drive-- just got a 2GB SCSI full-height and would love to have it linked up to my Tandy.

Anything in DOS has to have drivers, every piece of hardware that I can remember, be it a card or drive or anything had a setup disk.

Thinking of that, a SCSI card would have an external connector to let you use things like SCSI hdd's and CD-roms.

Tupin
April 12th, 2010, 04:30 AM
I guess I could try to clean it, the one time I got anything out of floppies was when I was trying old Apogee software and it just gave me gibberish. I don't have a cleaner, and I don't know how to get through the metal casing to get to the floppy drive.

The 8088 is socketed, correct?

tremoloman2006
April 12th, 2010, 06:53 AM
I have a 20MB hardcard but it's too big to fit inside my SX. I took it apart, made a holder out of cardboard for the drive, and it now recognizes it. Still won't boot but I'm working on it. I think I need to change a jumper on the motherboard to allow it to boot. I'll keep reading through that awesome Tandy 1000 FAQ. :)

Mad-Mike
April 12th, 2010, 11:11 AM
I have a Tandy 1000 similar to yours (except with dual 360K Floppy Drives), and that I've added a SCSI Card and 500MB SCSI HDD out of a Power Macintosh 7500/80, and a 3COM EtherLink II TP network card so I can transfer files without disks.

My hard drive is mounted internally, well, more like "wedged in" between the floppy cage and the PSU using a cardboard mount (which clears any vent holes so the PC can breathe properly) and wired in using a cable split between the top floppy and the hard drive. It's been running like this for 2 days straight now with no issues. The cable runs along the top of hte floppy cage to the controller card in the 3rd slot, which is a cheap Advanced Information Concepts SCSI Card which is both internal and external (it does look funny booting in the 40 column text mode at start though).

I prepared the drive by installing the SCSI card into my 286 and installing the Operating System and Networking (with NetBEUI and IPX/SPX protocols) with Microosoft LAN Manager 3.0 from floppies on that machine. Then I installed the pre-setup hard disk and controller + card into the Tandy, configured the config.sys and autoexec.bat files to multi-boot to a clean boot, a standard startup, and the networking startup. I used the network startup to map to my file shares on my modern computer (Pentium-D) and pulled all the software over to the Tandy from there.

A quick way I used to pull a huge amount of software over to the Tandy was I wrote batch files on the host machine that basically did all the DOS commands I needed to copy the files over. I'm not the best programmer in the world so it basically looked something like this...



echo "DOS FIles For Tandy 1000"
echo "Script for Quick Installation of DOS Programs"

md c:\sierra
echo "now installing Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards"
md c:\sierra\lsl
cd\dosgam~1\sierra\lsl
copy *.* c:\sierra\lsl
echo installation of Leisure Suit Larry Complete....(and repeat this code ad nausium)

After pulling over my programs I had a pretty much was able to run whatever I wanted off the hard disk drive. Whenever I want to install some more software, I just reconnect to the network and either run a batch file, or in some cases install by hand. The only thing that does not work right most of the time is running real iinstall programs from the host machine, might just be because it's an 8088 and 8088's can't run multiple programs at once like may be required to do a "server" based install.

I'll also put a plug for the XT-IDE card in here, I may eventually buy another as a backup for the Tandy 1000 in case I run out of SCSI Drives (as I don't have any left that work with that computer, the 1.2 GB is too slow and has write errors because it expects a MUCH faster interface, and about 8-9 IDE drives I can use without issue on the XT-IDE card). There is plenty of power in 65 watts for a hard disk and a network controller of more modern spec (it's not like I"m running a large (in size, not capacity) Stepper hard disk from the 80's but rather a 500 MB "energy star" compliant drive out of a md-90's apple).

mikey99
April 12th, 2010, 11:54 AM
Has anyone tried the XT-IDE in a Tandy 1000 SX?

Tupin
April 12th, 2010, 01:11 PM
I don't have a SCSI card, but I have a CD-ROM interface card, but I doubt it would be of any use.

I have a 250 MB SCSI drive made by Apple, I guess I just need a SCSI card.

I still don't know how to get files to the Tandy with the floppies.

Tupin
April 12th, 2010, 01:36 PM
Nevermind, I need an 8-bit one. Anyone know a good, readily available 8-bit SCSI card?

k2x4b524[
April 12th, 2010, 05:45 PM
i have an XT-IDE in my Tandy 1000 TL class, i can't imagine the SX is much different, works fabulously now too :)

Tupin
April 12th, 2010, 05:48 PM
This is what I get sometimes, it's either this or the "File not found" error. This is with a Cyber Pinball disk (yes, I know it wouldn't work, it is shown because it and Apogee disks were the only ones not to give me a "File not found" or "General error" error) :

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x28/TUPPYLUVER95/IMG_2784.jpg

mikey99
April 12th, 2010, 06:32 PM
If you do a DIR on that diskette on another machine does it show normally ?
If so then it could be a dirty head on the Tandy diskette drive.

I recall seeing weird stuff like this when doing DIR on some copy-protected bootable
game disks. Something about the diskette format that the DIR command couldn't
understand.

Tupin
April 12th, 2010, 06:48 PM
It reads it just fine on other computers. I'll get a drive head cleaner.

Hopefully that's all I need to do...

vwestlife
April 12th, 2010, 07:54 PM
It is possible that your copy of Tandy MS-DOS may be corrupted, either due to data loss or due to a virus, thus causing the gibberish to be displayed on the directory listing. You can download disk images of a clean copy of Tandy DOS, although you'll probably have to swap the drives in the Tandy around so that the 3.5" drive is the A: drive, so you can try booting off it.

http://www.oldskool.org/guides/tvdog/system.html

Regular Microsoft MS-DOS or IBM PC DOS will also work fine, if you happen to have an old boot disk from another computer on hand.

Tupin
April 12th, 2010, 07:57 PM
I was using IBM PC DOS, and I have a backup of it somewhere.

I still want to try cleaning the drive head first, especially since it loads 5.25 inch floppies just fine.

NathanAllan
April 12th, 2010, 08:18 PM
Have you tried formatting it on the Tandy first, then writing files to it from the newer machine, then taking it back to the Tandy? I had to do this to quite a few machines, especially Atari's ST; mine read any floppy disk that was started there, but not a floppy that was formatted on anything else.

/edit Do you have a copy of the DOS that came with it? I have PC-DOS for Tandy somewhere, I think I can copy it for you. I'll check tomorrow when I get to 'work.'

Tupin
April 13th, 2010, 04:08 AM
I'll try that.

No, I don't have Tandy DOS. I've been using IBM PC DOS.

How do I format in DOS? The normal commands I usually use don't work.

vwestlife
April 14th, 2010, 03:42 PM
How do I format in DOS? The normal commands I usually use don't work.

In Tandy DOS, just use FORMAT A: or FORMAT B: as necessary. Add /S to format a boot disk. You do not need to manually specify a 360K or 720K format.

If it tries to format a 3.5" disk as 360K instead of the correct 720K, you need to add the DRIVPARM command to your CONFIG.SYS file. This requires DOS 3.2 or higher, but you should be using at least Tandy DOS 3.3 -- which is what Radio Shack recommended you to be using anyway if you install a hard drive. Add the command DRIVPARM=/D:0 to CONFIG.SYS if the 3.5" drive is A: or DRIVPARM=/D:1 if the 3.5" drive is the B: drive.

Chromedome45
April 14th, 2010, 05:32 PM
An answer to the question of wether or not the XT-IDE will work in a Tandy 1000 is most likely it will. I have one in my 1000 TX and works great. have it hooked up to a small laptop drive right now an no problems at all.

Tupin
April 14th, 2010, 06:13 PM
Still gives me a "General Failure Error" when I try to format. I guess I need to clean it.

Longshot, but if I were to make a DOS boot disk in Windows, would it read and boot a more recent DOS version?

NathanAllan
April 14th, 2010, 06:14 PM
Not sure if the same commands will work, but here's a list from wikipedia:

format [options] drive
FORMAT drive: [/V[:label]] [/Q] [/F:size] [/B | /S] [/C]
FORMAT drive: [/V[:label]] [/Q] [/T:tracks /N:sectors] [/B | /S] [/C]
FORMAT drive: [/V[:label]] [/Q] [/1] [/4] [/B | /S] [/C]
FORMAT drive: [/Q] [/1] [/4] [/8] [/B | /S] [/C]
/V[:label] Specifies the volume label.
/Q Performs a quick format.
/F:size Specifies the size of the floppy disk to format (such
as 160, 180, 320, 360, 720, 1.2, 1.44, 2.88).
/B Allocates space on the formatted disk for system files.
/S Copies system files to the formatted disk.
/T:tracks Specifies the number of tracks per disk side.
/N:sectors Specifies the number of sectors per track.
/1 Formats a single side of a floppy disk.
/4 Formats a 5.25-inch 360K floppy disk in a high-density drive.
/8 Formats eight sectors per track.
/C Tests clusters that are currently marked "bad."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DOS_commands

I saw that you are using IBM-dos so that's why I am not sure.

NathanAllan
April 14th, 2010, 06:16 PM
Still gives me a "General Failure Error" when I try to format. I guess I need to clean it.

Longshot, but if I were to make a DOS boot disk in Windows, would it read and boot a more recent DOS version?

Not a double post, just posting as Tupin is posting.

I have both 3.5 and 5.25 cleaning kits if you need them. Let me know if nothing else works. it could also be a bum floppy drive; gibberish data, not reading ot general error, might be indicitive of a bad drive.

Tupin
April 14th, 2010, 06:38 PM
The cleaning was going to be my next step. I don't know where I would find a 720kb floppy drive, can I just use a 1.44 MB one? I have one from an old Macintosh.

Lord Moz
April 14th, 2010, 07:00 PM
The cleaning was going to be my next step. I don't know where I would find a 720kb floppy drive, can I just use a 1.44 MB one? I have one from an old Macintosh.

You could use a PC 1.44MB one, but you will find the Mac floppy is not going to work, at least not easily. Apple supplies the power through the ribbon cable and many of their old floppy drives are also electronically ejected - i.e. no manual eject buttons. This also has additional signals on the ribbon cable.

Find a PC 1.44MB drive. It will work as 720KB in a DD controller.
__
Trevor

Tupin
April 14th, 2010, 07:25 PM
Doesn't it need an edge connector type connection rather than pin type?

vwestlife
April 14th, 2010, 07:38 PM
Doesn't it need an edge connector type connection rather than pin type?

The original Tandy 1000 can use standard floppy drives and any standard floppy drive cable. (The newer 1000 series machines integrated the power voltages with the drive connectors, requiring the use of specially modified floppy drives, but you don't have to worry about that.)

The only thing to watch out for is that instead of putting a twist in the cable between the A: and B: drive connectors, Tandy used the Drive Select jumpers on the floppy drives themselves to configure the A: and B: drive positions. So when installing new floppy drives, you can either set their DS jumpers to match the proper Tandy configuration, or you can just replace the floppy drive cable with a standard PC cable with the twist, and then you won't have to worry about messing around with the jumpers on the drives.

Tupin
April 15th, 2010, 10:46 AM
How do I change the jumpers?

Got the drive out. It's a Sony MP-F63W-72D. I'll clean the drive head, and try again.

Wait a second...This PCB on the edge comes right off. This looks like some sort of adapter to use a more modern floppy drive on a Tandy...

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x28/TUPPYLUVER95/IMG_2785.jpg

k2x4b524[
April 15th, 2010, 06:50 PM
the sony drive gets it's power from the date cable, not the molex cable, that little guy makes it so you can use the drive in a normal pc without modding a cable for the tandy, if the sony drive doesn't have a 4 pin mini plug on it, like the 3 of mine do.

Tupin
April 15th, 2010, 07:20 PM
So I could I take a floppy drive and replace it using that board?

NathanAllan
April 15th, 2010, 10:24 PM
Looks liek it. I would think based on what AI am looking at, you would need a power cable from go from that larger plug to the one the drive uses.

If the Sony drive you have uses the data cable for power, that drive might not work. See if you can find a plain vanilla floppy drive, your local thrift shops might have one in a five-dollar old machine.

If that card is for a specific floppy drive, then it might not work at all. I'll look around, see if I can dig up an I/O card with a floppy drive header on it (if you need one). 8-bit ISA, right? Not the full length ISA card card? I'll start looking.

Tupin
April 16th, 2010, 02:47 PM
The Sony drive has a standard connector and four-pin power connector. That adapter gives it an edge connector and a bigger power connector.

Tupin
April 20th, 2010, 06:27 PM
Okay, now there are bigger problems. The 3.5 inch drive responds, but it still doesn't read anything. The 5.25 wasn't working, so I switched the cable on the 3.5 from J2 to J3, and they both booted up, but neither responded.

I'll use my Tandy 1000EX for now, I'm getting a DOS game in the mail soon.

k2x4b524[
April 20th, 2010, 06:39 PM
Tupin, what i see on that adapter is the molex for the large plug, but NO power to the 3.5inch, i believe it lets you plug in the tandy drive and be able to use it in a standard pc, i would be careful when using that particular model of tandy floppy, the 4-pin mini and the lines for the power on the cable ARENT seperate on the drive, the traces connect into each other, if you use a standard cable, u will ground out the floppy and the power supply won't turn on, if you use the 4-pin with the standard cable, same thing will happen, the PS won't start, i believe that adapter rids u of that problem, or make a special cable by removing the ground pins one of the connectors, then marking that cable as specially modded.

NathanAllan
April 20th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Getting lost over here. Does the floppy drive need that controller? My Tandy doesn't use that card, and it uses the power supply and no plug on the card at all. I'll open it up tomorrow and take pictures, see if we can compare notes. If necessary I might have a suitable drive extra.

Tupin
April 26th, 2010, 01:18 PM
Still need help. Either both the floppy drives go on at the same time, only the 3.5 inch drive goes on, or neither go on. There's a cable with a black connector and a gray connector, the 5.25 inch drive has one edge connector, while the 3.5 inch has 2. Which ones go to where?

geoffm3
April 27th, 2010, 01:18 PM
Still need help. Either both the floppy drives go on at the same time, only the 3.5 inch drive goes on, or neither go on. There's a cable with a black connector and a gray connector, the 5.25 inch drive has one edge connector, while the 3.5 inch has 2. Which ones go to where?

Sounds like an addressing problem to me. You might have to move the drive select jumper on the disk if there's no twist in the ribbon cable. If the replacement floppy drive is sufficiently old enough it should have one. New ones have all but eliminated the DS jumper.

Tupin
April 29th, 2010, 02:07 PM
I never actually replaced the drive. I just put it back in the machine, and now neither drive works. Here's the cable I'm using to connect the drives:

NathanAllan
May 1st, 2010, 09:25 PM
Okay, I see no twist there, so check the jumpers if they are what they ought to be.

What are the models of both floppy drives? I might be able to look them up (or you can also) and see what jumpers go where.

Also, just ran across an adapter to let you use a pinned type drive where a board edge connector ought to be used if it's needed.

Tupin
May 23rd, 2010, 01:38 PM
Got sidetracked and tried it again today. Well, I'm back where I started. 5.25 drive works, not the 3.5 drive. Guess I'll just keep looking for a 1.44 MB drive.

I think I also need an NEC V20, my fully expanded Tandy 1000 booted up Alien Syndrome but was so slow it was unplayable.

Tupin
May 25th, 2010, 05:00 PM
Okay, so now it sometimes says the drive is not ready. I opened it up to see how it starts up, and noticed it doesn't move much. It uses a 34 pin connector, of which I only have one other model. The other one came from a similar machine that also had a similar adapter on it, but rather than having just one connector, it had another one that adapted the power supply pins. I plugged it in like the original drive and it didn't work.

I'm not sure where to go from here, I don't know if a floppy drive will work so I don't want to buy one until I do, and I also need a faceplate for 3.5 drive in a 5.25 enclosure.

Agent Orange
May 25th, 2010, 05:40 PM
Tupin:
What model Tandy 1000 do you have? Is it a 1000, 1000A, 1000SX, or what?

Tupin
May 25th, 2010, 06:31 PM
It's an original 1000.

Agent Orange
May 26th, 2010, 05:16 AM
Need a little time to to go through my Tandy manuals and try to figure this out. If you had a 1000SX you wouldn't have a problem at all.
Hang in there!

Tupin
May 26th, 2010, 10:23 AM
Sounds good...

Tupin
May 26th, 2010, 03:00 PM
In the mean time, I'll get a floppy cable for a modern computer so I can put a 5.25 in it to transfer files.

I don't see why any old 34 pin drive wouldn't work...

Agent Orange
May 26th, 2010, 06:03 PM
A word of caution about that. The way the 1000SX works is that a particular floppy drive's position, that is either "A" or "B", is dependent on the jumper settings within that particular drive. The 1000SX uses a floppy cable without the familiar twist. If you use a modern 3 1/2" floppy on the 1000SX as your "B" drive, in the absence of movable jumpers, you must resolder the hard-wired jumpers on the floppy's pcb. The easiest way is to leave the 3 1/2" as the "A" drive and easily change the jumpers on the 5 1/4" drive to "B". I think the 1000 gets it's power through the drive cable, therefore most of the above may not apply. Unless you can come up with a super 8-bit floppy controller that likes the 1000, the most you will be able to realize is a 3 1/2" 720KB/1.44MB floppy operating at 720KB only, and a 5 1/4" DS-DD 360KB floppy. As far as I know, none of the 1000 series BIOS will natively support high density drives. I'll keep checking . . .

Tupin
May 26th, 2010, 06:57 PM
I just want a 720K drive, so that's fine.

I guess I'll just bite the bullet and buy a 1.44MB drive and hope it works, at least they are cheap.

vwestlife
May 26th, 2010, 09:51 PM
I have a 1.44MB drive in my original 1000 and it works perfectly as a 720K drive. The original Tandy floppy cable is very short and does not use a twist, but if you retrofit a standard floppy cable with the twist, then you won't have to worry about messing around with the drive select jumpers on the floppy drive(s).

Also, the older 1000s use standard Molex power connectors. I believe it was only the 3.5" floppy drives in the 1000HX and newer models that combined the power with the data cable.

Finally, don't believe Radio Shack when they said you need to upgrade the ROM in the original 1000 in order to support a hard drive. My 1000 has the original, never upgraded 01.00.00 ROM and I am able to just pop in a Seagate ST11 controller and hard drive and it works perfectly.

Tupin
May 27th, 2010, 04:16 AM
I don't have a cable with a twist AND edge connectors, will any standard universal cable work? Also, if I use the universal cable, can I just use the 3.5 connector rather than the adapter and a card edge?

vwestlife
May 27th, 2010, 04:27 AM
I don't have a cable with a twist AND edge connectors, will any standard universal cable work? Also, if I use the universal cable, can I just use the 3.5 connector rather than the adapter and a card edge?

Feel free to experiment for yourself. It only takes a few minutes to swap out the cables and see what works and what doesn't.

Tupin
May 27th, 2010, 02:57 PM
I tried using the Tandy adapter with a standard 34 pin floppy drive and it didn't work. I tried it with another one that had a separate connector that converted the power cable to a Molex connector and it had that old problem of turning on and staying on. Guess I need a cable with a twist.

Also, this floppy drive had a pin pushed in, but I don't think that matters. I'll probably get a new one anyway.