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Floppies_only
May 20th, 2010, 05:38 PM
Gang,

It seems like there are plenty of IBM PC/ATs on ebay, but that they all seem to be marked up and/or not running/missing drives, etc. Does anybody remember seeing a decent AT with extended memory selling there or elsewhere anytime recently, like the last two years? I remember that bigdmclean used to sell them for $399 (you can buy a new computer for that much now).

I'm interested in running windows 3.1 on one. I've read someone on the forums saying that was a bad combination, but I used to have a clone 286 with 8 megabytes of memory and it ran works for windows fine - it was just a little slow to start a new program.

Thanks,
Sean

glitch
May 20th, 2010, 05:56 PM
I ran Windows 3.1 on my Compaq 286/SLT laptop for years, with 2.5 MB RAM. It wasn't a speed demon, but it got the job done, and was used for many school projects! My first laptop, so anything was better than nothing. I used to run Windows 3.1 for Workgroups on my IBM PC/ATs when I had two up that I used regularly -- it still had support for Hercules mono graphics, which was good because both of my ATs came with 5151 monitors. A NE2000 clone card let me connect to my Windows 95/98 desktop shares.

Incidentally, if you need to run WFW 3.11 with Hercules graphics, you can install WFW 3.1 and then do an upgrade. It will use the old drivers with the new installation.

Do ATs really sell for that much? I figured they wouldn't, unless they were just in absolutely perfect factory condition, due to the shipping charges you'd get with such heavy machines.

glitch
May 20th, 2010, 06:17 PM
Did some eBay searching:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-PC-5170-Computer-/360264659045?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e1727065

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Personal-Computer-5170-286-/220608043714?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335d439ac2

Not too bad! The second link even includes the plastic surround that sticks on the back.

Unknown_K
May 20th, 2010, 09:19 PM
IBM was pushing the PS/2 line when the AT was out so they probably didn't make as many 286 AT systems as they did the PX/XT.

I have seen nice IBM AT systems on ebay, but they seem to be too expensive. No idea if they sell at those prices, but the odds of finding mint condition AT's at garage sales are pretty low these days. The 286 chip is not favorite anyway.

Floppies_only
May 20th, 2010, 09:34 PM
IBM was pushing the PS/2 line when the AT was out so they probably didn't make as many 286 AT systems as they did the PX/XT.

I have seen nice IBM AT systems on ebay, but they seem to be too expensive. No idea if they sell at those prices, but the odds of finding mint condition AT's at garage sales are pretty low these days. The 286 chip is not favorite anyway.

Yes, with a 386 you can do multitasking with windows. The thing that confuses me is why the PCs and XTs all have nice paint but the ATs look like they've been dragged behind a wagon.

The PS/2s are on ebay, but there don't seem to be any with enough memory and the reference disks seem scarce.

It's hard to collect IBM.

Thanks,
Sean

Floppies_only
May 20th, 2010, 09:39 PM
Did some eBay searching:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-PC-5170-Computer-/360264659045?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e1727065

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Personal-Computer-5170-286-/220608043714?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335d439ac2

Not too bad! The second link even includes the plastic surround that sticks on the back.

My "Saved Searches" found those, too. The second one looks O.K., but it's probably got only 512K of memory and I'll even bet the CMOS battery is dead and the hard drive heads aren't parked.

But I think I'll bid on it.

Sean

Anonymous Coward
May 21st, 2010, 06:53 AM
I really can't figure out why most of the ATs are in such lousy condition either. It took me a very long time to obtain a really nice AT case. My first 2 or 3 ATs were beaten to hell.

Chuck(G)
May 21st, 2010, 07:28 AM
I think that perhaps you're not looking hard enough--or you're not willing to spend the money (http://www.bksurplus.com/products.asp?cat=73)

The 5170 was a miserable attempt by IBM to come out with a 286 box. The first ones were 6MHz and used an oddball DRAM chip (piggybacked 64K chips) and were promptly overclocked to 8MHz by many customers (check a 1985 copy of PCWeek for ads for replacement crystals). It ran fine at 8MHz. IBM responded by putting a speed check test in the model 239 BIOS that refused to boot if the CPU didn't clock close to 6MHz. The 339 should have been the real product, with an 8MHz CPU and commodity 256K DRAM chips, but it was too late. The very tall PC-AT expansion cards didn't help either--nobody really wanted a huge tall box on the desktop. Aftermarket deskside stands got to be very popular, putting the machine where it would be sure to suck in all the crud off the floor.

IBM eventually responded with the sleek PS/2, but queered the game by trying to re-assert control of the market with a proprietary bus. They practically gift-wrapped the market and handed it to the clone makers. It was an incredible lack of insight from a company that was previously known for their marketing savvy.

paul
May 21st, 2010, 01:03 PM
The ATs certainly do get beat up, probably because they are very heavy. At least the case and bezel are painted and so don't turn yellow.
It took me four ATs to get two tidy ones just 6 years ago, and now I have only one (http://paulaxford.com/computer_collection/ibm_5170/at4l.jpg) left in my collection - a type 2 with the plastic back cover and the equally-rare key.

and the hard drive heads aren't parked.FYI, the hard disk may park mechanically if it's a voice coil type that seems to be common to the full-height Seagate drives.

It's hard to collect IBM.Perhaps, but only recently and at least these models have historic significance despite not being technically on the cutting edge.

Floppies_only
May 21st, 2010, 03:35 PM
I think that perhaps you're not looking hard enough--or you're not willing to spend the money (http://www.bksurplus.com/products.asp?cat=73)

Who, me? I'm the guy who snipes with outrageous bids on ebay. I'm just a little...short...right now, due to afore mentioned activity.


Aftermarket deskside stands got to be very popular, putting the machine where it would be sure to suck in all the crud off the floor.

[Grin]


IBM eventually responded with the sleek PS/2, but queered the game by trying to re-assert control of the market with a proprietary bus. They practically gift-wrapped the market and handed it to the clone makers. It was an incredible lack of insight from a company that was previously known for their marketing savvy.

That micro channel architecture bus was ahead of it's time. It was designed to handle higher bus speeds in anticipation of faster CPUs. The clone makers did come out with improvements on the IDE bus, but they made there own standard, and now Lenovo computers are clunky looking things that are made in China.

How about that Steve Jobs, though?

Sean

Floppies_only
May 21st, 2010, 03:40 PM
Perhaps, but only recently and at least these models have historic significance despite not being technically on the cutting edge.

Well, if it's only recently it could be because of the recession. The going rate might be low enough that sellers are hanging on to their IBM iron. Or it could be that attrition due to electronic failures is removing the available supply. Or it could be that collectors have snapped most of them up. Or a combination of the above. I suspect that the supply is not going to get any better.

By the way, this is a side note, but if it turns out that I don't enjoy writing my book I intend to abandon the project and sell most of my computers. So there could be quite a bit of stuff coming on line, as I find that I make a lot of mistakes while typing due to poor concentration (I'm a vet with PTSD). But I might try to trade the lot of it for an IBM PGA monitor first. Fat chance, right?

Sean

vwestlife
May 21st, 2010, 06:09 PM
IBM eventually responded with the sleek PS/2, but queered the game by trying to re-assert control of the market with a proprietary bus. They practically gift-wrapped the market and handed it to the clone makers. It was an incredible lack of insight from a company that was previously known for their marketing savvy.

But ironically, the clones eventually adopted nearly all of the innovations of the PS/2 line: "PS/2" keyboard and mouse connectors; VGA, XGA, and 8514/A video standards; SIMMs; 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks; a 32-bit "plug and play" bus (albeit in the form of PCI); toolless cases with snap-in drive bays; motherboards with integrated I/O ports and drive controllers; etc. etc.

The main problem with the PS/2 lineup was not its innovations, but rather its lack of backwards compatibility. Initially only the low-end 8086 and 286 models were offered with the ISA bus (many more were added later), and on most models, a 5.25" floppy drive was an ungainly and expensive external add-on. Plus, the high-end MCA models dissuaded existing PC-AT users from considering them as an upgrade path by being gut-wrenchingly expensive (well into the five-figure range on fully equipped systems) and incompatible with virtually all of their existing hardware.

Of course IBM also royally screwed up by putting excessively tight restrictions and high fees on licensing the MCA bus to the clone makers, resulting in only a handful of them (Tandy and NCR... who else?) ever adopting it.

Chuck(G)
May 21st, 2010, 06:23 PM
That last one, is what, IMOHO cost IBM big. I think some suits decided that the way to kill the competition was the old "lock in" game, which worked for many mainframe vendors, but not for PCs.

The PS/2s had some sound ergonomics and were easy to disassemble and reassemble. Compare the PS/2 with the 5170 and it becomes pretty obvious.

Oddly, we're still stuck with the 5150 bracket scheme. I wonder why PCI didn't make a move to something more user-friendly. At least iIt wasn't as bad as something like, say, S100 or Unibus, where you could tear the bejeezus out of your hands getting a card out.

Dave Farquhar
May 23rd, 2010, 05:42 AM
Of course IBM also royally screwed up by putting excessively tight restrictions and high fees on licensing the MCA bus to the clone makers, resulting in only a handful of them (Tandy and NCR... who else?) ever adopting it.

Yes indeed. I know PCs Limited (Dell before it was Dell) announced an MCA machine but I don't know if they ever shipped it. And if they shipped it, I don't know how many people actually bought one.


That last one, is what, IMOHO cost IBM big. I think some suits decided that the way to kill the competition was the old "lock in" game, which worked for many mainframe vendors, but not for PCs.


It did. In 1995, when I was selling computers at retail, a lot of people wouldn't even look at IBM. Microchannel was history except for in some of its server hardware, but if I said "IBM," they would say, "Don't those use those really expensive cards that don't work in anybody else's computers?" Even when I'd show them that the slots were the same in the IBM as in the Compaq and Dell computers sitting right next to it, most people still weren't interested, even when the price was competitive. Microchannel cost IBM a lot of trust, and they never really did lose that perception of being proprietary and overly expensive.

vwestlife
May 23rd, 2010, 09:07 AM
Microchannel cost IBM a lot of trust, and they never really did lose that perception of being proprietary and overly expensive.

Perhaps the one thing that did save them was their exceptional line of ThinkPad laptops, and strong support from the business and institutional market (likely due to restrictive "IBM-only" contracts).

On the consumer side, however, they went through a series of mostly unsuccessful desktop lineups: PS/1 (1990-1994), PS/ValuePoint (1992-1995), Ambra (1993-1994), PC Series (1994-2000), and finally Aptiva (1994-2001).

It also didn't help that Microsoft punished IBM for buying out Lotus and producing a competitor to Microsoft Office, by charging IBM higher prices and witholding them the OEM license for Windows 95 until after the clone makers were already shipping Windows 95 systems.

Unknown_K
May 23rd, 2010, 11:44 AM
Once the clones came out there was nothing IBM could do to keep from losing most of its market share. You can say the PS/2 line killed off their home market, but that is the market the clones were going to own anyway. The PS/2 line at least gave corperate buyers the idea they were getting better designed and built machines then what the clones offered (well until EISA came along).

Dave Farquhar
May 23rd, 2010, 01:49 PM
Perhaps the one thing that did save them was their exceptional line of ThinkPad laptops, and strong support from the business and institutional market (likely due to restrictive "IBM-only" contracts).

On the consumer side, however, they went through a series of mostly unsuccessful desktop lineups: PS/1 (1990-1994), PS/ValuePoint (1992-1995), Ambra (1993-1994), PC Series (1994-2000), and finally Aptiva (1994-2001).

It also didn't help that Microsoft punished IBM for buying out Lotus and producing a competitor to Microsoft Office, by charging IBM higher prices and witholding them the OEM license for Windows 95 until after the clone makers were already shipping Windows 95 systems.

Indeed. Now that you mention it, people would come in and ask for ThinkPads by name. But given the price disparity between desktops and laptops at the time, we didn't move nearly as many laptops. To overcome that trust factor, IBM had to make something that was literally 3x as good as anything else on the market and they just never figured out how to do that on the desktop.

And yes, the antagonistic relationship with Microsoft definitely hurt matters too--it made it hard for IBM to keep prices competitive. I still think IBM should have called OS/2 Warp "OS/2 Chicago" when Windows 95 was delayed. Microsoft would have sued, but they had no trademark on the name. IBM would have had bigger legal concerns from the pop band than from Microsoft. But that's a whole other can of worms there.


Once the clones came out there was nothing IBM could do to keep from losing most of its market share. You can say the PS/2 line killed off their home market, but that is the market the clones were going to own anyway. The PS/2 line at least gave corperate buyers the idea they were getting better designed and built machines then what the clones offered (well until EISA came along).

You're right, IBM never completely figured out the home market. But even once they came in with a competitive product at a competitive price (the PCjr was neither, but the PS/1s and Aptivas were competitive with Dell and Compaq on price and capability), it still didn't catch on. Had IBM conceded in the late 1980s that they would have to share the market, phased Microchannel in (the way PCI ultimately was phased in) and charged less costly royalties on it, things could have turned out a lot differently for them. The perception of IBM being proprietary was what kept us from selling IBMs. I sold a lot more Compaqs, Dells, and HPs than I did Packard Bells, because they were much better quality machines and I didn't want to sell junk. (I got in trouble for it sometimes, but rather than push Packard Bell, I just got more subtle.) I did manage to sell more IBMs than most of my coworkers, but it was an uphill battle.

It is kind of hard to blame IBM though, in a way. Their mainframe strategy had been very successful, so you would expect them to repeat the strategies that worked in the past. IBM is out of the PC market now, but they're one of many companies who can say the same thing. Not many companies did get it right.

Chuck(G)
May 23rd, 2010, 03:09 PM
True, that IBM might well have started with a PS/2 model with, say 4 ISA slots and 2 Microchannel slots. Yes, I know that the idea is abhorrent to technical purists, but it might have gotten customers asking for the MCA cards as gradual upgrades. That "all or nothing" with MCA really hurt.

vwestlife
May 23rd, 2010, 03:19 PM
True, that IBM might well have started with a PS/2 model with, say 4 ISA slots and 2 Microchannel slots. Yes, I know that the idea is abhorrent to technical purists, but it might have gotten customers asking for the MCA cards as gradual upgrades. That "all or nothing" with MCA really hurt.

AFAIK, nobody ever made a combo MCA/ISA (or MCA/anything else) motherboard, but there were quite a few "flipover" MCA/ISA expansion cards.

Unknown_K
May 23rd, 2010, 06:09 PM
Considering MCA sound cards were always rare I can't see a person buying one for home if they want to play games and do work. If IBM did what Apple did and sold machines with built in sound they would have sold many more. Besides most cheap MCA systems had like 3 or 4 slots total and one was taken by the storage controller, only the big tower servers had more slots and they were $10K+ (or the Model 90 desktop).

A MCA+ISA bus would not realy work in getting people to upgrade to MCA cards since most MCA cards were SCSI, Tokenring, networking, or generic VGA and cost a fortune. People would have just used ISA or junked the machine for VLB.

Anonymous Coward
May 23rd, 2010, 06:37 PM
i'm pretty sure IBM made a few systems that were PCI and MCA.

southbird
May 23rd, 2010, 07:10 PM
Also, since ISA is mostly NOT Plug 'n Play, it wouldn't sit well with the MCA. PCI and MCA makes enough sense; at least PCI cards guaranteed to be software configured for resources just like MCA. But in the case of ISA, MCA would think some resource is free, when it actually is not, and I could see that causing some headaches... though I'm sure tech support of ISA cards was a lot of fun back in the day... :)

Floppies_only
May 23rd, 2010, 08:05 PM
Considering MCA sound cards were always rare I can't see a person buying one for home if they want to play games and do work...

I love it when a completely mundane topic spins into a really interesting discussion like this :)

Sean

Chuck(G)
May 23rd, 2010, 09:34 PM
Also, since ISA is mostly NOT Plug 'n Play, it wouldn't sit well with the MCA. PCI and MCA makes enough sense; at least PCI cards guaranteed to be software configured for resources just like MCA. But in the case of ISA, MCA would think some resource is free, when it actually is not, and I could see that causing some headaches... though I'm sure tech support of ISA cards was a lot of fun back in the day... :)

You'd work it the same way that PCI currently works--you allocate the ISA resources first, then assign what's left over to PCI. There are plenty of PCI-ISA systems, after all.

lordofthegods
May 25th, 2010, 09:56 PM
I just picked up a 5170 on Ebay for $19.00
Unknown if it works but the 5150 I bought from the same guy works fine.
Now just trying to find a PS/2 Model 80

wrljet
May 26th, 2010, 04:39 AM
I just picked up a 5170 on Ebay for $19.00
Unknown if it works but the 5150 I bought from the same guy works fine.
Now just trying to find a PS/2 Model 80

Free shipping?

lordofthegods
May 29th, 2010, 07:08 AM
Free shipping?

lol, of course not, but $35 is pretty fair S&H for a 40lb tank like this thing. Was DOA (hence the $19 price tag I assume) but I already got it fired up, I'm itching to get an AT keyboard (used to have a dozen) so I can really start to mess with it. Even with shipping the price is decent considering the ridiculous prices on Ebay, there are units on there for $200+, why would anyone ever pay that?

I had a question though, anyone ever notice that 5170's are always WAY more beat up than 5150/5160's are? Why do you think that is? Every 5170 I have ever seen, looks like it has spent a year on a battlefield or something.

Dave Farquhar
May 29th, 2010, 09:40 AM
I think the reason you see more 5150s/60s in nice shape is because they were more likely to end up in home environments (not many people could afford the asking price for an IBM AT in 1985-87), and an IBM in the home was a status symbol in the 1980s, so people kept them looking nice. ATs were more likely to be bought for business or higher education use, and depending on the culture of the place, those types of machines can get really trashed. Even today, desktop PCs from offices usually get a lot more trashed than home PCs, at least by the time I see them for sale.

My first non-sales IT job was working for a university in the mid 1990s, decommissioning old IBM XTs and PS/2s (I don't think we had any ATs by then) and replacing them with IBM PC 330s. Most of the IBMs that lasted long enough to get to me were really trashed. But when I find an IBM PC or XT at an estate sale today, generally they still look good.

gerrydoire
May 29th, 2010, 10:05 AM
I've been looking for a high quality IBM 5170 myself for the past 2 years on Ebay, and all I ever see on there is AT's that seen better days....


:o

wrljet
May 29th, 2010, 10:11 AM
I got mine by asking a seller who had a bunch of stuff going up, week after week, "what else ya got?" and cut a deal off the 'Bay.

vwestlife
May 29th, 2010, 11:29 AM
I think the reason you see more 5150s/60s in nice shape is because they were more likely to end up in home environments (not many people could afford the asking price for an IBM AT in 1985-87), and an IBM in the home was a status symbol in the 1980s, so people kept them looking nice.

The AT is also simply too large, heavy, and noisy to be practical for home use, and it had too short of a useful lifespan. By the time applications started to benefit from 286+ performance, the smart rich kids got a PS/2. :)

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl0/1/15111/05_2008/doogie.jpg

wrljet
May 29th, 2010, 12:29 PM
I like the AT chassis because it is large, rectangular, and made of heavier gauge sheet metal than most clones.

Dave Farquhar
May 29th, 2010, 12:52 PM
The AT is also simply too large, heavy, and noisy to be practical for home use, and it had too short of a useful lifespan. By the time applications started to benefit from 286+ performance, the smart rich kids got a PS/2. :)


Agreed. I didn't know anyone in the mid/late 1980s who had an AT at home. Most everyone had an XT of some sort, or, even more likely, a Commodore, Apple, or Atari. I remember two people who had 286s back then. One had an XT-286 and the other had a PS/2 Model 30-286.

In the mid 1990s, when secondhand ATs (or their empty shells) were still easy to come by, I upgraded an awful lot of them into 486s and Pentiums for people. They were big and overbuilt, but that's the way I like 'em. I still have mine, though I never had an IBM board for it. I paid $10 for it in 1994 or 95 at a used computer store. Initially I put a 386DX-40 board in it, then I had various Pentiums in it later on. I wanted to put a Socket 370 board in it, but the memory wouldn't clear the drive bays and I didn't want to cut into the case to make them fit.

I wish I'd saved one of those discarded AT boards so I could restore it.

linuxlove
May 29th, 2010, 01:20 PM
I've always wanted a 5170 but after reading this thread, maybe I better go for a PS/2 Model 30-286.

Quahog
July 18th, 2010, 08:11 PM
re: Overflowing Trash Dumpster Derived IBM 5170 PC-AT with 5154 EGA Color Monitor.

Now before everybody rushes out to the nearest garbage heap in search of an old time IBM computer, must advise that my find happened back about 15-years ago.

Was attending the Rochester, New Hamphire HAM radio fest in 1995. At the time, many amateur people were getting into PACKET satellite HAM radio. The data transfer rate was around 1200 Baud, so old cast-off computers such as the early generation IBM PCs were good for the purpose. Many sellers at the HAM radio fest were offering various computers on their tables. About half of those were 5150, 5160 and 5170 IBMs. As I recall. the prices were mostly under $100 with lots of them in the fifty-buck range.

At the time in the mid-1990s, many companies were dumping their obsolete 1980s vintage systems for state of the art equipment. By early afternoon, a cold steady rain was falling and the prices of the computers had dropped to ten and fifteen dollars each. As I left, a couple of sellers offered me IBM computers for free. Didn't feel like lugging one of those heavy junky things with monitor through the downpour all the way back to parking lot.

As I approached the car, noticed a big trash bin that was nearby. It an was amazing thing to see. Heaped into a huge pile within the dumpster were computers with monitors. The thing was overflowing with toss away PCs. On the ground next to the dumpster, sitting in the rain was as an orphan IBM AT 5170 computer with monitor and cables. The machine seemed to have been carefully placed there. I felt for sorry for the thing which looked to be in nice condition. Loaded the 5170 into my car along with two older 5150 computers and matching monitors with keyboards.

Eventually, the earlier version IBM PC machines that quit working were thrown into the town dump. I kept the 5170 AT with 5154 monitor for sentimental reasons. As a purchasing agent for General Electric in the early 1980s. I was buying IBM PCs by the pallet full. At the time, the 5170 AT machines in a similiar configuration to my dumpster reject having dual floppy units, modem, printer port and 30 meg hard drive with color EGA monitor along with other technoid goodies were well over $6,000 each. Recall invoices for a dozen IBM machines being over $80,000.

My wife has tried to have my IBM 5170 thrown into the garbage several times now. She failed and I am glad that the thing weighs a ton. This machine chugs along perfectly and makes all the correct noises and beeps. It looks to have been a corporate owned computer as there are various service and inspection tags here and there. On the front is a label that warns employees to, "PROTECT ALL DATA - AT ALL TIMES".

Sometimes the vintage 5170, that today sits over in the corner, gets switched on as a decor item. Usually have some loop DOS program running such as a star chart, chess or tactical hex type war game. Being so dated parked among the modern flat screen LCD monitor machines, the ancient IBM 5170 AT has a distinctly dated charm of it's own.

Raven
July 21st, 2010, 04:50 PM
I found an XT-286 Model M in much the same condition. I was driving past the back of a Goodwill, as for some reason people just LOVE to illegally dump donations there after-hours (and since the stuff doesn't belong to the people who dumped it, or Goodwill, it's kinda up for grabs), and saw a keyboard sitting in the rain, on the road. I knew that if I didn't take it, it would be dead by morning, easily. Since it was beige, I hopped out of my car and checked it out, noting that it was obviously a Model M, but one I had never seen before. It had an AT keyboard connector, no indicator lights, and a shiny silver IBM logo. I used it unwittingly on my main desktop machine, thrilled that it still worked, and eventually discovered that it likely was partnered with an IBM 5162 or XT-286 at one point in it's life. It now awaits my acquisition of a 5162 so it can take it's rightful place in my row of silver-label IBM machines.

IBMMuseum
July 21st, 2010, 07:16 PM
AFAIK, nobody ever made a combo MCA/ISA (or MCA/anything else) motherboard, but there were quite a few "flipover" MCA/ISA expansion cards.

I can't believe I haven't seen this topic until now...

There was a combo ISA/MCA system: the "Industrial" (rack-mount) IBM "Gearbox 800". Mine is from the Johnson Space Center. But it isn't a conventional motherboard, rather a backplane bus that the ISA and MCA cards require adapters to plug in. It's natively a MCA design, and there are many ISA cards that you can't use.

There also was IBM systems, mostly in "server-size", pairing other buses: MCA/PCI, EISA/PCI, and both ISA and MCA adapters to a PCMCIA bus...

And for a list of companies that produced microchannel systems: IBM, NCR, Bull Micro, Reply, Apricot, and Tandy...