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NeXT
July 24th, 2010, 08:50 PM
With a lot of thanks from Erik and my friend SAQ from Nekochan.net, I amnaged to come in ownership of a Lisa 2 for a VERY reasonable sum of money.
Save for the mouse (working on that), it's all there and a ProFile drive is on the way.

Now without further chit-chat, here she is! Lisa Serial # A4191631

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_0651.jpg

...Yeah. Well right off the bat we can clearly see that someone decided it would be cool to spraypaint the system black. At least they didn't cover over the apple logos or the identification badging. I don't know what kind of paint was used (normal stuff or that plastic bonding stuff) but if the painter is reading this, please chime in as you will be immune from prosecution.
Regardless, I need to somehow get it off.
The second thing is a bit more serious.
Like most Lisas, the battery has decided to spooge all over the board it sits on and the backplane.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/P5254023.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/P5254025.jpg

It does not look really bad so hopefully all that happened is it ate away the coating over the traces and not the traces themselves and any broken spots can be patched with wire.

The other issue I need insight on is the mouse. I'm working on getting one but for now all I got is a IIe and Mac 512 mouse and I don't dare try either with the lisa until I'm sure it will work. Being the top-of-the-line system for Apple, I would not be suprised if it was propreitary to everything else they had (except the ProFile which pretty much ran off a parallel port...)

barythrin
July 25th, 2010, 07:52 AM
Very nice problem to have. Good find :-) Certainly looks like it'll need some TLC. As long as it's not a multi-layer PCB I think you'll be ok with jumping over the bad traces. Is that second board also the motherboard or another card? That one looks pretty rusty but could just be the picture. No chance of this being some dev model eh? Pretty positive that it was a user or teenager paint job? I would guess it's probably just spray paint but as for removing that and not damaging the plastic I'm not an expert in paint removal. I suppose you could try a few things if you figure out the paint job on a modern computer or plastic (maybe a 5.25 slot cover or something).

NeXT
July 25th, 2010, 09:11 AM
The second board is effectively the system backplane and the ram,CPU,I/O, and expansion cards plug into it. Because it's sits below the battery, it got pretty mangled up as well.
I'm unsure exactly when this particular unit was made. The backplane states a 1982 date stamp on it and it has a 4191 manufacturing code. It's possible this was a Lisa 1 that got upgraded to a Lisa 2.
Again, I have absolutely no idea about the paint job. It just came to me like that as-is. I can't experiment either because I don't know they kind of paint used.

NeXT
July 25th, 2010, 11:48 PM
Cleaning went well.
The backplane was pretty much saved by the dust that was on it and there is no trace damage at all. the connectors however are still very dirty. I don't know how to clean them.
The memory and CPU boards were okay and received no damage. The I/O board had three visual breaks which I patched up using wire.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_0654.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_0655.jpg

Anyways, I assembled the system again and powered it up.
For starters, the power bulb is burnt out and wow, there are no fans in this system. It's dead silent.
Second, all I got was a white screen with angled lines.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_0657.jpg

:stern:
I then started troubleshooting:

Try to power system on with just the I/O boarad installed - OK. system powers on with nothing on display.
Install I/O and CPU board and listen for a low tone beep and possibly a pattern on the screen - Beep heard but no pattern. Just the white screen with the lines seen above.
Install memory board and try again for response, if that fails try the other. If that fails, try again in the other slot.

That last one was where things got weird. The first slot didn't do anything but it wasn't until I tried the second board in memory slot 2 that I got two high tone beeps and a low tone beep. I still got a white screen.
At this point my finger fell off the PSU interlock and I had to power the system on again. this time I got three high tone beeps and still a white screen. I then added in the other memory board into slot 1 and tried again. Same three beeps and white screen.
Moving the boards around now pretty much just gives me three beeps and a white screen.
Okay, so this means that the system is at least doing something but because I'm not getting one but three beeps, something is wrong and there is also a possibility that something is funny with the video circuirty.
Also, I would like to mention that during the tests, the floppy drive was unplugged. I did not note the orientation of the connector and which connector was used during disassembly and I don't dare try to plug anything back in until I know how it is connected.

tezza
July 26th, 2010, 02:15 AM
I can't help but keep us updated. I love reading about these restoration jobs. Looks like you've cleaned it up real well. Do the beeps mean something? By that I mean did Apple use beeps to flag a problem similar to what IBM did with it's POST beeps?

Tez

alker
July 26th, 2010, 02:24 AM
Hi, to me the screen looks like a dead CPU board..

as for the beeps and error messages: the best source for troubleshooting is the Lisa FAQ
http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-rom_beeps.html

http://lisafaq.sunder.net/

NeXT
July 26th, 2010, 08:43 AM
Gah! A dead CPU board? It was one of least damaged of the bunch too.i
Anyways, because my PSU and boards seem to be ok I'll try to see if I can borrow my friends lisa to see what happens. I'm really hoping that the video issue is not what you said and I'm seeing the result of dirty edge connectors. I really wish I knew of a way to clean them up because as far as I know, the video signal could be having trouble reaching the screen.
Say, did the Lisa video ROM output video to both the screen and the video output jack simultaneously from power on or after it was switched on in software?

Dave Farquhar
July 26th, 2010, 09:37 AM
I've never removed paint from a Lisa, but in my other life, I've had to remove paint from other surfaces, both plastic and metal, frequently. My favored juice is called Purple Power or Super Clean. The easiest place to find it is auto parts stores.

The safest way to test it is to put some on a cotton swab, rub it on the paint, and see what happens. With any luck, it's ordinary, run of the mill spray paint, and if that's the case, the purple stuff (both cleaners are purple in color) will remove it easily. I'd test on the underside of the keyboard, if you're concerned. If that works, soaking the painted parts in a bath of it for a few hours will remove most of the paint. A little scrubbing with a toothbrush will remove what remains.

NeXT
July 26th, 2010, 11:53 AM
These edge connector sockets need to be cleaned very badly.
I cleaned up the gold fingers on the cards using an eraser but the I/O slot at least is still very picky. Sometimes it works, other times I get the I/O fault beep.
I also discovered while reseating and cleaning the socketed chips that the 8530 had a bent pin which means that someone had pulled these chips off before me and didn't do a good job reinstalling them. Anyways, I bent it back and it still seems okay.
If it's handy, I do have an oscilloscope.

antiquekid3
July 26th, 2010, 08:20 PM
I know nothing about the Lisa, but I would recommend you using the 'scope to trace the video. When you've suddenly "lost" the signal, you know where your problem lies. Of course, it might not even be a video problem (especially if you have a bad CPU board, I suppose).

You could also take an ohmmeter and make sure all of the pins have continuity. I don't know how reliable those edge connectors are.

Kyle

alker
July 27th, 2010, 02:58 AM
Gah! A dead CPU board? It was one of least damaged of the bunch too.i
Anyways, because my PSU and boards seem to be ok I'll try to see if I can borrow my friends lisa to see what happens. I'm really hoping that the video issue is not what you said and I'm seeing the result of dirty edge connectors. I really wish I knew of a way to clean them up because as far as I know, the video signal could be having trouble reaching the screen.
Say, did the Lisa video ROM output video to both the screen and the video output jack simultaneously from power on or after it was switched on in software?

it is absolutely recommended that you try switching the boards with your friend's Lisa.. otherwise I fear you wont be able to get her back again. The symptom from the screen shot could be a dead CPU board - but it is also possible that only the ROM's and/or the video chip on the cpu board is dead but the board itself is working. This replacement chips can be optained from john from vintagemicros.com

as said - my proposal is a not working cpu board; this board is at least easier to get than a dead video board... pls. switch the cards from a known working Lisa - it is the fastest way to get results.

NeXT
July 27th, 2010, 08:29 AM
I was thinking about that as well last night. If I want to troubleshoot the video corcuitry on the CPU board, the only thing I can swap around are the video ROMs, right?

alker
July 28th, 2010, 02:31 AM
I was thinking about that as well last night. If I want to troubleshoot the video corcuitry on the CPU board, the only thing I can swap around are the video ROMs, right?

your screenshot tells me in my experience that either the CPU board and/or the motherboard is dead. Switch the complete drive cage from your friend's Lisa - but check if the motherboard is the same: there are 2 revisions that are not compatible; if your friends Lisa is also a Lisa 2/5 (with the parallel port on the back) than it is no problem.. the motherboard from the later Lisa 2/10 - MacXL wont fit into your Lisa.

When it then boots up at least your CRT and the video board inside the Lisa are ok; then try to switch every card and the chips that are removeable on the CPU board: her it is the video rom and the ROM chips that can cause the symptoms I've seen on your screenshot

without a 2nd working Lisa it will be very very difficult to troubleshoot

alker
July 28th, 2010, 02:34 AM
this is the video ROM:
http://vintagemicros.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/30/products_id/183

these are the Boot ROM's:
http://vintagemicros.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/280

there also exists another video / boot rom which was used for the MacXL - the famous "Screen Mod Kit" - http://vintagemicros.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/30/products_id/216
they can also be used in the Lisa you have..

NeXT
August 2nd, 2010, 03:41 PM
Threw my PSU and boards into my friends lisa and....
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_0672.jpg

IT LIVES!!!
This means that the boards plus the card cage are okay. The video fault lies either in the dirty fingers of the edge connector for the power/analog interconnect or the analog board itself. It's probably dried out caps I would assume.

tezza
August 2nd, 2010, 04:45 PM
Excellent!

It's always good to have access to a second machine for these purposes.

Tez

NeXT
August 2nd, 2010, 11:00 PM
For diagnostic reason. I want to attach a monitor to the composite output on the lisa. It pretty much mirrors the main display right from the start so it's always outputting video however it seems ot be using some really weird sync. Neiher my home theater or my bench TV can't sync to it. Anyone know what frequence it is trying to sync to? the guide says it needs a multisync and another source says that it uses some oddball frequency (which they did not list) but that it was indeed composite.

NeXT
August 21st, 2010, 11:19 PM
Sorry, spent two weeks in Tokyo.

Anyways, I'll try to get back on this tomorrow. Meanwhile, how should I get the spraypaint off the panels?
A quick test with WD-40 or rubbing alcohol show that the paint is thankfully surface only and comes off with a fair bit of rubbing but what else can I use to more quickly strip off the paint but not damage the plastic?

NeXT
August 24th, 2010, 06:43 PM
So freaking bizarre......

I compared my analog board to my friends. Same year, same model, same revision. Same assembly.
Between his and mine, a single transistor has been removed from mine.

It's in location CR6.

2N50
60GE

it's so bizarre. It's as if someone removed it.
Anyways, I'm sure that if I put a new one in, that will fix it.

NeXT
August 30th, 2010, 07:48 PM
Hmm, okay. That didn't work. :/
The shop didn't have an exact replacement so they sold me an NCR-1006 which was pretty similar.
I soldered it in, installed everything and....still no picture. :/
Huh. I'll have to start poking around with a scope. I know for sure now that it IS the analog board.

NeXT
September 4th, 2010, 04:25 PM
Okay, help would be appreciated.
I'm now 100% positive that the display issue lies somewhere on the analog board. The cards and the wiring harness both check out fine as does the tube as well. The thing is I have no idea where to start looking.
I do have a scope and a few other simple test tools like a DMM and capacitance meter.

tezza
September 5th, 2010, 02:25 AM
I'm still feeling my way with this diagnostic lark but are there any power regulators/transistors on the analog card? It may be worth checking if these are outputting the right voltages. That might be a good starting point.

Tez

NeXT
September 5th, 2010, 02:09 PM
From what I can see, a lot of the power regulation happens in the PSU and then everything just plugs into that.

tezza
September 5th, 2010, 03:30 PM
From what I can see, a lot of the power regulation happens in the PSU and then everything just plugs into that.

You might be right. However, are you sure? Some computers further regulate voltage on the boards themselves. My System 80 for example. An onboard power regulator was the problem here:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2010-08-27-s80-wavy-screen-fix.htm

Tez

NeXT
September 5th, 2010, 03:36 PM
Not much of an expret circuits unfortunately. I can't really tell what makes up the HV circuit and what does regulation.
It would be nice i the other lisa owners chimed in with any assistance.

Erik
September 5th, 2010, 08:58 PM
Not much of an expret circuits unfortunately. I can't really tell what makes up the HV circuit and what does regulation.
It would be nice i the other lisa owners chimed in with any assistance.

I wish I could help but if ignorance is truly bliss then I'm amongst the happiest people alive. . . :D

NeXT
September 5th, 2010, 10:44 PM
Well, I did kind of buy it from you. >_>
I guess I'll just have to compare readings from wht working analog board with my non working unit and see what I find.

Erik
September 6th, 2010, 09:41 AM
I guess I'll just have to compare readings from wht working analog board with my non working unit and see what I find.

That's usually best if you can do it! :)

tezza
November 28th, 2010, 02:52 PM
Hi,

I'm posting to what has been a quiet thread for a few months because I now too own a Lisa (actually three of them!). Two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10. That's another model off the list :)

They are all broken and need restoration. The best of the lot is the Lisa 2/10 (see photo). However, it doesn't boot from the hard drive, but comes up with a similar screen to the one NEXT shows earlier.


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2010-11-29-apple%20lisa.jpg

I've got a lot to learn about this machine and I've collected links and material I've got to wade through before I start repairs in earnest.

Has anyone had experience with getting Lisa 2 images off the web for use with a real Lisa 2? I don't have any disks. I DO have the required images and some good tips from this link..
http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-media-floppy_dc42.html

The problem is getting through the pathway below, which is the only one open to me...

Internet -->My PC--->a Mac-compatible 1.44MB disk--->into my FDHD Mac SE/30--->Onto a 800k DS/DD disk in an externally attached 800k Apple 3.5 inch drive (but written as a 400k SS/DD Lisa disk).

It's a long and convoluted pathway not to mention the .sit and .hqz formats to negotiate! I'd be interested to hear of others' experiences?

Also, is there any way to ascertain that a 400k disk prepared from an image actually has been done correctly and WILL boot (perhaps by examining it in a Mac?). Nothing is more frustrating than a non-boot but not being able to know if it's the software image or the hardware at fault.

NEXT, how are you going with your own restoration?

Tez

NeXT
November 28th, 2010, 04:16 PM
I pretty much stopped. I can't trace down the fault on my analog board. It's outta my league.
I am managing to get the paint off. DOT 3 brake fluid softens the paint to the point I can scrape it off with my fingernail but it's going to still take a lot fo work to get allt he panels totally clean.

As for disk images, I assume you got all yours from Mac Mothership. (http://www.macmothership.com/lisacontent/lisahome.html)
A ZIP drive is a miracle device here, especially the Plus 100 drives which support both Parallel and SCSI. You can use that to transfer all the images and the Disk Copy utility over to the SE/30, then you can generate the images from there. I'm assuming you have Stuffit Expander on the SE/30 already, right? Otherwise you will not be able to transfer over the Disk Copy utility in its raw form without killing the resource fork.

Edit: Also, the later revision power supplies tend to die it seems. The original ones (like the one I have and proves mine used to be a Lisa 1) were a lot more durable.

tezza
November 28th, 2010, 04:23 PM
Hmm..I hadn't thought of a zip drive. I actually have a parallel one here unused. These can just be plugged into Macs or do you need some sort of driver? I probably need a driver for the PC too yes? It's been 20 years since I used it!

Yes, I got the images from the mothership.

I do not have the stuffit expander on the SE/30. In fact, I'm going to have to learn how to get it there and use it. This is all new territory for me, and I can see it's going to be a long journey.

Tez

NeXT
November 28th, 2010, 10:47 PM
For the SE, you will need to use a SCSI ZIP drive and yes, you also need a driver for it as I found out on my Quadra 950. Luckily the driver itself fits on a floppy so just find a copy of it in a .smi (self mounting image) format and you should be fine, same with the Stuffit Expander installer.
I still swear by Stuffit. Anyhting I archive is stuffed by it because the file can then take one hell of a beating and the resource fork remains intact.

applefreak
November 28th, 2010, 10:59 PM
Download the Zip Driver (http://www.jagshouse.com/zipMacPlus.html)

tezza
November 28th, 2010, 11:50 PM
Thanks for the link. Alas, my Zip drive is just a parallel port one and 250MB at that. Looks like I might have to try another approach.

Tez

bluethunder
November 29th, 2010, 09:30 AM
Hi,

Internet -->My PC--->a Mac-compatible 1.44MB disk--->into my FDHD Mac SE/30--->Onto a 800k DS/DD disk in an externally attached 800k Apple 3.5 inch drive (but written as a 400k SS/DD Lisa disk).

It's a long and convoluted pathway not to mention the .sit and .hqz formats to negotiate! I'd be interested to hear of others' experiences?

Tez

I'd love to have a LISA for my stuff.. Lucky!

I've pretty much had to do the same thing for my MAC 128. The problem I kept running into was all the images were compressed using a version of stuffit that was incompatible with my MAC SE (system 6, I think). Why you'd pack the system images for a old mac in a version no old mac can un-stuff I'll never know.

I wound up using vMac emulator to open the disk images, and recompress them in a stuffit 4 friendly format, so I could unpack them on the SE.

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?19508-Old-128

tezza
November 29th, 2010, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the tip.

I can see this getting these images on a working disk not going to be easy.

After reading up on it, I checked out the Lisa last night. As the previous owner had said, there seems to be some issue with the widget disk controller. At least that's what the error messages say (CPU and Memory are fine). There are quite a few socketed chips on the controller. Tonight I'll reseat them and see if that makes a difference. I'll also have a good visual inspection of the board.

Tez

tezza
December 4th, 2010, 04:58 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm having fun playing with these three Lisa's (1 Lisa 2/10 and 2 Lisa 2s) I aquired about a month ago. The aim is eventually to get the Lisa 2/10 and one Lisa 2 going.

The Lisa 2/10 comes up with a disk controller error during the I/O board check. I don't have an I/O board I can swap out I've shelved that one until I can get one of the other Lisa 2s going.

One of the Lisa 2s now gets to the point where it asks for a disk. And here's the problem. I can't get any of my sony Lisa 400k 3.5 drives (all three of them) to show any sign of life? You can see the little LEDs come on inside but the drives sit there completely lifeless?

I have 2 LisaLite controller boards, but swapping these around makes no difference.

I find it hard to believe that all three drives have exactly the same problem or even that both LisaLite boards have the same fault (although it's always possible I guess?). The only thing not swapped is the main cable going from the backboard connector to the Lisa Light controller? However the connecting ends look ok with no sign of missing or damaged pins?

Before I dive into some deeper diagnostics, I just wonder if I'm missing something obvious here? Has anyone else had this problem or can suggest what might be wrong? Do these Lisalight controllers often fail and how likely do you think it is I have two faulty ones? (or three faulty drives for that matter).

Any comments most appreciated.

Tez

Moonferret
December 5th, 2010, 04:42 AM
Tez, I could be wrong (Its been some years since I had a Lisa) but I'm fairly certain that the Lisa 2's used the same drives as the early Macs. Is it worth connecting the Lisa's drives up to a Mac to test or if you have an 800k drive from a Mac, try plugging that into the Lisa? At least this will rule out problems with the drives.

tezza
December 5th, 2010, 08:50 AM
Tez, I could be wrong (Its been some years since I had a Lisa) but I'm fairly certain that the Lisa 2's used the same drives as the early Macs. Is it worth connecting the Lisa's drives up to a Mac to test or if you have an 800k drive from a Mac, try plugging that into the Lisa? At least this will rule out problems with the drives.

Thanks for replying. They do. Unfortunately I don't have an early Mac (I must get one someday). They also take a 800k Mac drive, but only if you have an upgraded ROM. I don't have either of those either unfortunately

Tez

harry
December 5th, 2010, 01:41 PM
Hi Tez, just been catching up on things and noticed you have some new toys! "all that comes to he who waits" nice finds indeed. these should keep you busy. I too have a lisa 2 that took a lot of time and effort to get working. (but now needs a psu repair) You probably have read lots about getting the floppy drive working, and they do require removing and dismantling. they are very mechanical, and all linkages must operate freely. once removed and cleaned, it is easy to insert and remove any floppy disk , to see that all linkages are working properly. I spent a lot of time to free up the dried greased parts. but once everything was cleaned and lubricated, the drive worked like new! best of luck Harry.

tezza
December 5th, 2010, 02:41 PM
Hi Tez, just been catching up on things and noticed you have some new toys! "all that comes to he who waits" nice finds indeed. these should keep you busy. I too have a lisa 2 that took a lot of time and effort to get working. (but now needs a psu repair) You probably have read lots about getting the floppy drive working, and they do require removing and dismantling. they are very mechanical, and all linkages must operate freely. once removed and cleaned, it is easy to insert and remove any floppy disk , to see that all linkages are working properly. I spent a lot of time to free up the dried greased parts. but once everything was cleaned and lubricated, the drive worked like new! best of luck Harry.

Hi Harry,

Thanks for responding.

Yes, the Lisa was a machine I wanted and it's great to have one (or three!). I love the modular design with the plug in backplane. So easy to work on!

Were your drives totally dead? Yes, I've read a bit from Lisa documents about getting these drives going but not where the drive seems to be making no attempt at all at rotating or ejecting. Yet I can manually eject the disk easily, move the heads on the rails and even spin the flywheel. There is no sign of any of the three drives is straining to do anything when they should be though. They just sit there in stubborn silence?

You might be right though. The force of my finger may be far greater than any electrical impulses and maybe things are not as free as they should be (they seem free enough?). Those drives certainly look complicated with all sorts of springs and mechanisms. I do have some disassembly docs but I'm loath to dismantel them until I am sure siezed joints are the problem.

Next step might be to check out the readings on the drive card edge and see if they reveal some clues...

Tez

harry
December 6th, 2010, 02:22 AM
Tez, when I collected my machine there was a floppy stuck in the drive, and it appeared the drive was dead, It does not take much to remove the drive, take off the metal casing, and I used a small paint brush and wd 40 penetrating fluid, to clean all old grease from everything. the lead screw on the head was also gummed up, when you slide the disk in and out everything has to be really free to move! certainly check out signals, but I should stress how these drives must be free to operate.The early mac I have, had to have the same treatment and works perfectly now. you don't need to dismantle much at all to carry out the cleaning and lubing. ............Harry

tezza
December 6th, 2010, 08:31 AM
....the lead screw on the head was also gummed up, ....

Hi Harry,

I dismantled one of the drives last night. The eject mechanism was reasonably free anyway, but it's even freer now with some alcohol cleaning and silicon grease. However, I think the stepper motor at least might be seized up. After degreasing and lubing this, I find I can slide the head on the rails but rather than turning the stepper screw it instead bounces over the top of the threads.

I'm suspect this is not suppose to happen, right? Thinking back to my 5.25 inch drive lube experiences whenever I moved the head, the stepper screw turned with it.

Even if the stepper was jammed would that stop it ejecting disks or spinning them though? As I say, although the little LEDs are on, they don't make any noise of show any sign of life at all. Hopefully their motors aren't burnt out.

I haven't taken any measurements on the LisaLite cards yet. Looking at a circuit diagram I see these are very simple cards with most of the lines actually going straight through to the drives. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out if the signal is getting lost in there somewhere.

Over this week I'll take LisaLite measurements and disassemble/lube the two other drives. I feel I'm tantilisingly near to having a working Lisa yet still so far away at the moment.

Of course the one I'd really like to get going is the Lisa 2/10. It comes up with a I/O board error message 57 on the screen. Does anyone know exactly what the IC(s) are connected to this number? Docs say the LisaLite card. That makes sense on the Lisa 2 but on the Lisa 2/10 this functionality has been transferred to the main I/O board. I'm not sure exactly where though? Maybe the two chips second and third in from the top left?

Tez

tezza
December 7th, 2010, 10:12 PM
Problem solved on the Lisa 2!

As I don't have any software yet, I was using a HD 3.5 inch disk as a tester just to see if the Lisa passed all disagnostic tests and the drive spun (and was ejected). The drive didn't spin or eject so I considered it dead.

Turns out that this morbidity was caused by the HD disk. I don't know for sure (docs are hard to come by on this Sony drive) but the suspicion is that there is a light sensor in the drive used to detect a disk which just happens to align with the density indicator hole in the HD disk. As the light shines through the hole, the drive assumes no disk is present and does nothing? With a DD disk, everything spins and ejects as it should!

I didn't discover this myself. A poster on the cctalk list suggesting this was possibly the problem from his experiences with other Sony drives. I was skeptical but tried the Lisa when I got home from work with a DD disk and volia! Spin and spit!

I'm still not sure the Lisa 2 is completely working. I've got to get a copy of Macworks and see if it runs, and also check out all the keyboard keys. It looks hopeful though!

In the meantime I'll turn my attention to the second Lisa, the Lisa 2/10 with the I/O board error. I want to get that widget drive booting and see that Lisa Office Suite! :)

Many thanks to those that contributed.

Tez

andy
December 9th, 2010, 10:33 AM
I also have a Lisa 2/10 that I'm restoring. I rescued it from a university when they closed their computer repair department. It had been sitting on a shelf for years along with various printers, monitors, and computers they were saving for parts. I asked about it once, but they wouldn't sell it. Fortunately, when they were cleaning out the shop after they closed for good, I noticed it in a basket of things to be scrapped. Fortunately, it was unharmed and still have the Macworks XL box on top.

So far, I've cleaned and lubricated the floppy drive, and replaced a leaky cap in the reset circuit that was preventing it from POSTing. It was originally a Mac XL, so I replaced the ROMs with Lisa 2/10 versions and disconnected the extra transformer in yoke circuit (undoing the square pixel "screen mod"). Now I can boot to Mac OS using Macworks, or to the Lisa OS installation disks.

It works fine with a Mac 128k/512k/plus mouse. I think my keyboard is bad, but I haven't opened it up yet. Hopefully it's just a broken cable.

The big remaining problem is that my internal hard drive is bad. It spins up, but just sits there seeking every few seconds. When booting, it tries to boot from the hard drive, but fails with an error. I can't get the Macworks, or Lisa OS disk utility to format the drive.

I acquired it about 5 years ago, and it has been in storage for 4 years due to a long distance move. The move is complete, and when I recently tested it, it was still working (apart from the dead hard drive).

tezza
December 9th, 2010, 02:49 PM
It works fine with a Mac 128k/512k/plus mouse. I think my keyboard is bad, but I haven't opened it up yet. Hopefully it's just a broken cable.

Andy, I think this is a common problem. Apparently there are pads inside them that distintergrate. A google around will reveal some remedies.

I suspect my keyboards are not-working. Hard to test until I've got some software for the Lisa 2 that now at least spins it's floppy.

Tez

tezza
December 9th, 2010, 02:51 PM
Andy, you might be able to answer a question for me. Will a Lisa 2/10 boot just from it's floppy if the hard disk is disconnected?

This will be a useful fact to know as I go about diagnosing the fault in this 2/10 of mine.

Tez

Erik
December 9th, 2010, 07:42 PM
Andy, I think this is a common problem. Apparently there are pads inside them that distintergrate. A google around will reveal some remedies.

I've usually got replacement pads for sale on The Marketplace (http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com)... >shameless plug<

andy
December 12th, 2010, 07:39 AM
Andy, you might be able to answer a question for me. Will a Lisa 2/10 boot just from it's floppy if the hard disk is disconnected?

This will be a useful fact to know as I go about diagnosing the fault in this 2/10 of mine.

Tez

I can't remember if I have tried booting it with the hard drive disconnected, but the bad hard drive doesn't prevent it from booting. If it can't boot from the hard drive, it should present you with a list of boot devices and allow you to click on the floppy drive. I'll try it with the hard drive disconnected the next time I do something with it.

tezza
December 12th, 2010, 08:42 AM
Thanks Andy,

After more poking around with the scope I'm almost sure this fault I have is either the IWM chip or the ROM on the I/O board. Next step is to try to source either part so I can at least swap them to determine which one (and verify that it is indeed one of these).

Then there is the small problem of actually getting a replacement part of course. Arcadecomponents has an IWM at least.

I'm working on tracking down Lisa owners in New Zealand not only for the above, but also to see if I can get some LISA software.

Tez

andy
December 17th, 2010, 07:21 AM
I have an EPROM programmer, and I will be making backups of the ROMs soon. If anyone needs the files, feel free to contact me.

tezza
December 22nd, 2010, 12:27 AM
Well, with the help of an Apple Classic 2, a 800k external drive, some software called Transmac and web-sourced -disk images I managed to make myself some Macwork disks for my Lisa 2.

The good news is that it boots sucessfully from the floppy drive! Yay! The bad news is that all THREE of my Lisa keyboards don’t work. A common problem with old Lisa keyboards but fixable.

Anyway, I’m getting there!

I’m also working on getting the Lisa 2/10 going as well. I hope to do more work on this second machine after Xmas.

Tez

tingo
December 28th, 2010, 12:55 PM
Well done! Have a nice holiday; you've earned it! :-)

tezza
January 11th, 2011, 01:59 PM
Well, I managed to get one of my Lisas up and running. Those interested can read about it at the URL below.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-11-salvaging-a-lisa2.htm

Tez

NeXT
January 11th, 2011, 06:24 PM
Nice writeup. You said that you use parts from one to make the other two work, right? Does the "donor" unit still ahve a presumably working analog board you are willing to trade? I've given up on finding the fault in mine.

tezza
January 11th, 2011, 10:11 PM
Hi NeXT,

Replied to your question via PM

Tez

tezza
January 26th, 2011, 11:18 PM
Iím also working on getting the Lisa 2/10 going as well. I hope to do more work on this second machine after Xmas.


Progress! The Lisa 2/10 now gets to the boot stage! The fault was the IWM Apple 344-0041 (Integrated WOZ machine controller). However, the widget drive itself throws up an error. First things first though. I'll source a replacement IWM chip, then worry about the widget drive. It might just need some exercise.

I diagnosed the faulty chip with the help of a friend who owns a Lisa 2/10. He bought a couple of chips of interest (the I/O board IWM and the ROM) to swap out with the suspects in my machine. He also had an IDEFile ProFile drive emulator which we hooked up to my working Lisa 2. Whoo hoo, it was great to see the Lisa Office Suite boot
into action. It looked very cool and in 1983 it would have looked even
cooler!

Tez

tezza
February 5th, 2011, 07:35 PM
Progress on the Lisas. The Lisa 2/10 boots but both the floppy drive and the widget have issues. Unfortunately further repair looks difficult.

The widget certainly spins and I can hear a definte clack when the break comes off. I can hear drive seeking noises and the light flashes. I then get an "Error 82". From what I can read this is a fairly generic error which just means the internal drive is not working properly. I've tried to install the Lisa Office Suite and Macworks XL 3.0 from floppy. In the former case I'm told there is no suitable hard disk to install on, and the latter throws up an error 96. I've reseated all socketed chips to no avail. It could be a case of just requiring a low-level format, but I can't find anything on the web that suggests anyone actually knows how to do this. For those who have never seen a widget, this is what it looks like:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2011-02-04-widget-apple-lisa-2-10.jpg

The floppy drive has a issue where the motor simply doesn't turn sometimes. I've done some diagnostic work. It's not the switch or lubrication but it seems to be a problem on the circuit board. Oddly my spare 400k drive (from the spare-parts Lisa) has exactly the same problem? This means between my three Lisas I only have one working 400k drive.

The plan at this stage is to seek another 400k drive rather than try to repair it. I'm also looking at this item to replace the widget.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Profile-Widget-Emul ... 0494480628 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Profile-Widget-Emulator-Board-Apple-Lisa-Apple-III-/140494480628). I friend loaned me his older (Profile) model for the working Lisa 2 and I'm impressed. Very pricey though. I'll need to sell some of my other stuff to justify it to the significant other.

What I'm aiming for is one working Lisa showing the Lisa Office Suite which I can exibit. The Lisa 2/10 is best for this as I can hide the widget emulator inside and it still looks (although not sounds) just like it did in the day. The restored Lisa 2 I'll try and sell to help finance what I've spent on the project so far.

Tez

tezza
February 26th, 2011, 11:35 PM
Whoo hoo,

The Lisa 2/10 is now up and running. The X/Profile emulator works like a dream. What a great piece of hardware. Here's a pic of the X/Profile emulator mounted in the widget cage and the Lisa running the office suite.


5262



5263

Only one thing left to do. Repair a 400k floppy drive so I can have BOTH Lisas fully working. I think the problem has been diagnosed and I'm just waiting on parts.

Tez

tezza
March 3rd, 2011, 10:52 PM
Just an update re the non-working 400k drive for the second Lisa.

Got the parts --> installed the parts ---> Symptom still persists.

It looks like I might have to be content with just one fully working Lisa. Yet having TWO working Lisas is just a 400k drive away.

So near yet so far *sigh*

Tez

NeXT
March 4th, 2011, 05:56 PM
If you were a tad closer I could probably supply you with spare components to help you track down what is still faulty.

tezza
March 5th, 2011, 12:05 AM
If you were a tad closer I could probably supply you with spare components to help you track down what is still faulty.

Appreciate the thought. I haven't quite given up yet, and there is one other thing I can attempt. It's pushing the boundaries of my skill set though but what have I got to lose? Stay tuned.. :)

In the meantime, I've written up the restoration project for the Lisa 2/10 (Macintosh XL). For anyone interested, it's here:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-03-05-rejuvenating-a-lisa2-10.htm

Cheers

Tez

andy
March 6th, 2011, 04:25 PM
Well, I've hit the same error 82 problem with my Lisa. I bought a second widget on ebay which at first wasn't detected. I found that the piggyback EPROM on the controller board was bad, so I burned a new one, and now the drive is detected, but it behaves exactly the same way as the other one.

Both drives spin up, the head brake releases, and then the head does one full seek, but that's about it. The Lisa gives me error 82, and the option to retry booting. Each boot attempt results in the same single head seek.

I would love to try a low level format, but it seems that the few people who had the tools and knowledge were determined to keep it a secret. Now that there's no commercial value to formatting Lisa drives, I suspect the knowledge and tools may be lost forever. If anyone knows anything about low level formatting a widget drive, please contact me. If I ever get the needed tools (probably just a low level formatting program, and probably a special ROM for the widget and/or Lisa) I promise to share them with anyone who needs them at no cost. I can make copies of any special ROMs, or software available if I can find them.

The only concrete clue I've found is in a 1990 Lisa repair manual published by Sun remarketing. They claimed to be able to do a low level format using a "special machine". Presumably, that special machine is a Lisa, or Apple II, or III with the right software and interface.

If nothing else, attempting a low level format would probably point me in the right direction on repairing the drives. As long as the disks and heads are still good, everything else should be repairable.

tezza
March 6th, 2011, 11:00 PM
Yes, although the X/ProFile emulator has replaced it I'm sure all my widget needs is a low-level format.

But how?

Tez

andy
March 7th, 2011, 04:44 PM
Yes, although the X/ProFile emulator has replaced it I'm sure all my widget needs is a low-level format.

But how?

Tez

A second ebay Widget arrived today. This one was advertized as not spinning up, but otherwise as-is. After a few spins of the motor by hand, it managed to get up to speed, and the Lisa booted to Macworks plus! It's VERY noisy, but it works. Ironically, it's the oldest of my 3 widgets, and also appears to have been used the most (based on the amount of dust around the motor, and how loud the bearings are.

At least I know that my Lisa is working, and that it is possible for a widget to still work after all these years.

Back to low level formatting, I just had a thought. Doesn't the widget use a fairly standard parallel interface? I wonder if it could be low level formatted using a PC parallel port, and special software? Of course, any attempt to write a low level formatting program would require detailed information on the widget. It may be as simple as activating a low level format routine built into the widget's ROM, or it may be hopelessly complex.

linuxlove
March 7th, 2011, 06:37 PM
Found this on Low-level formatting a Widget hard drive:


> Hello David,
> many Thanks for your help!
>
> I'm very interested in the internal Profile materials- how can I get it from
> you ?
> By the way: Is it ok to copy the LLF EPROMs for everyone who needs it to
> repair his Profile hard disk?
> I think that Apple's copyrights for the Profile (and Widget?) ended in 1998-
> there shouldn't be any legal problems- do you know more about this problem?
>
>>
>> The same applies also to the
>> Widget drive in the Lisa.
>
> No, this is not true: You need a modified Lisa with an Apple internal LLF
> utility to perform a Low Level Format.
> I know an Apple technician who has repaired my widget and performed a LLF.
> He won't give away his knowledge or the utility software.

http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com/msg00593.html

So it seems it is possible to LLF a Widget drive but only using a special Lisa and special software, both of which are going to be extremely rare or non-existant now.

tezza
March 8th, 2011, 12:51 AM
Found this on Low-level formatting a Widget hard drive:

http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com/msg00593.html

So it seems it is possible to LLF a Widget drive but only using a special Lisa and special software, both of which are going to be extremely rare or non-existant now.

Yes, that's the conclusion I came to too (hence the X/Profile).

Tez

andy
March 8th, 2011, 07:29 AM
I had seen that post while I was searching for information. I know it was a few years ago, but it's frustrating that possibly the only person with the tools we need chose greed over preservation. How much money could there have been in Widget formatting, even back then?

It might not be as hopeless as it sounds. The modified Lisa could be as simple as a special disk controller ROM, and the software could be as simple as a boot floppy. If any of this still exists, it should be coped and archived before it's too late.

Alternately, using a PC to duplicate the functionality of this special Lisa and software should be possible for someone with some programming skills. The hard part is finding out what to tell the drive to do.

Has anyone taken apart a Widget drive? I would be curious to see what's inside without destroying a drive that I might be able to reformat someday. Is there any way to get to the bearing?

NeXT
March 8th, 2011, 02:44 PM
I was always under the assumption that a Widget drive was the HDA of a Seagate ST-506 or ST-412 or compatible drive and then fitted with Apple's specialty Widget boards.

I also assume you read this from the Lisa FAQ:

If using the OS installer to re-initialize/format the drive fails, the first level of service to address these issues is to do a low-level format. Unfortunately, in order to do this, you'll need an Apple /// computer with a ProFile interface card, the special low-level format ROM for the ProFile's Z8 processor, and the Apple /// ProFile formatting software to issue the commands. ProFile hard drives configured for normal operation do not have the firmware necessary to do low-level formats.

The technique, hardware, and software required to perform a low-level format of a Widget hard drive is unknown.

RetroHacker_
March 8th, 2011, 06:39 PM
Nope. The Widget is something completely different. You're thinking of the Profile.

-Ian

andy
March 9th, 2011, 01:12 PM
There's some interesting information here:

http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/idefile.htm

Table 1 lists the drive commands for the Profile. Note the "format unit" command. Assuming the Widget's commands are the same, I wonder if it would be as simple as issuing the format unit command, or if more interaction is required to complete a low level format?

I wonder if the Widget also requires a special firmware chip? It kind of makes sense to have a safety against accidentally formatting the drive with one wrong command.

His FAQ has a section on low level formatting the Profile. He claims to have the ROM and software, but he's unwilling to share it. Ha also claims to know nothing about formatting a Widget.

njroadfan
March 9th, 2011, 01:52 PM
His FAQ has a section on low level formatting the Profile. He claims to have the ROM and software, but he's unwilling to share it. Ha also claims to know nothing about formatting a Widget.

ROM image for the special ProFile formatting ROM can be found here along with a bunch of other ProFile technical info: http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Peripherals/Hard%20Drives/Apple%20ProFile/

andy
March 9th, 2011, 06:11 PM
ROM image for the special ProFile formatting ROM can be found here along with a bunch of other ProFile technical info: http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Peripherals/Hard%20Drives/Apple%20ProFile/

Thanks for the tip. They've added a lot of files since I was there last.

andy
March 9th, 2011, 06:39 PM
I just saw that someone is selling the Profile low level format ROM and software on ebay. Finding an Apple III is the hard part there.

NeXT
March 9th, 2011, 06:48 PM
FYI, the listing is here (http://cgi.ebay.com/5-MB-Apple-Profile-Low-Level-Format-Kit-Tested-/200525514577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb0408751) and a much more complete kit with cable and controller is here. (http://cgi.ebay.com/Deluxe-5-MB-Apple-Profile-Low-Level-Format-Kit-Tested-/200401692744?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ea8df2848)

EDITED: Fixed second link.

andy
March 10th, 2011, 07:33 AM
FYI, the listing is here (http://cgi.ebay.com/5-MB-Apple-Profile-Low-Level-Format-Kit-Tested-/200525514577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb0408751) and a much more complete kit with cable and controller is here. (http://cgi.ebay.com/5-MB-Apple-Profile-Low-Level-Format-Kit-Tested-/200525514577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb0408751)

You posted the same link twice. It's good to see that some of these tools are getting out there. Hopefully the Widget will be next.

I skimmed this document last night:

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Peripherals/Hard%20Drives/Apple%20ProFile/Documentation/Apple%20ProFile%20Repair.pdf

It has lost of very detailed information on the Profile, including things like how to evaluate the signal coming from the heads. I compared the Profile schematics to the Widget, and I think I've found the head amp test points on the Widget. I'm going to take a look at the signals on my working and no working drives to see if there's an obvious problem.

andy
March 10th, 2011, 10:56 AM
I did some quick measurements over lunch, and got some interesting results. One bad widget has a problem with the read/write board. There's absolutely nothing on the head amp test point. Swapping a known good read/write board in doesn't make it work (although it restores the head signal). I'm not sure if you can swap read/write boards without a low level format, so I will repair the original board and try again. I hope the read/write board didn't damage the low level format when it failed.

The other bad drive (the one that originally came with my Lisa) has a good looking signal sometimes, and noise at other times on the head test point. I compared it to the head select signal, and it's definitely one head that isn't picking up a good signal. A quick resistance check revealed an open head coil. Each head has a center tapped coil, and half of head 0 is open. It's not the ribbon cable, so I guess I have my chance to look inside the HDA... It's a shame because it's by far my quietest drive.

tezza
March 10th, 2011, 02:53 PM
Andy, this is interesting.

Are you able to elaborate? Can you post a photo showing exactly where these test points are on the widget and what settings you used to test with each of them (I assume you used a scope?).

I'd like to check my widget there and see what its saying..

Tez

andy
March 10th, 2011, 07:57 PM
The test points are on the lower of the two boards on top of the drive. They are TP1, and TP2 (it's a differential signal, and both should look the same). I was getting a sinusoidal waveform of about 4v p-p on the good drive. The bad drive is similar, so I will have to go back and do another comparison. I was seeing some gaps in the signal on the bad one, but I need to double check the good one to see if it's normal. The one with the bad head had a very weak and noisy signal when it was on head 0.

I cracked open the one with the bad head hoping to find a bad solder connection, or something, but it was the head itself that had failed. I managed to probe the wires right at the head tip, but the head itself was open circuit. It's a shame, but if the hard drive hadn't failed, I probably wouldn't have been able to rescue it. It sat on the shelf of a University's computer repair shop for many years before I bought it when they closed the shop.

I have been taking pictures, and I will post them later.

tezza
March 21st, 2011, 03:52 PM
Just an update re the non-working 400k drive for the second Lisa.

Got the parts --> installed the parts ---> Symptom still persists.

It looks like I might have to be content with just one fully working Lisa. Yet having TWO working Lisas is just a 400k drive away.

So near yet so far *sigh*

Tez

Yay! Just an update. I now a working floppy drive for my second Lisa thanks to John Woodall, maker of the X\Profile emulator. John read about my plight and sent me three spare 400k drives he had for the cost of shipping only!

THANK YOU John.

I now have a working Lisa 2 and a working Lisa 2/10. Still a few minor things to do. I want to get some rubber feet for the machines and the keys on one of the keyboards are a kind of olive colour. A candidate for deyellowing I think.

Tez

NeXT
June 21st, 2011, 11:04 PM
BuMP.
Feel kind of dumb that for almost the last year I have been searching for the schemetics for the Lisa and all along They were over at Mac Mothership. :P (http://lisa.sunder.net/cgi-bin/bookview2.cgi?zoom=0?image=0?book=6)
Well now I have the diagram for the analog board so now I can FINALLY track down the fault that's causing my lack of video. Oddly I find no mention of CR6 anywhere on the diagram or my tired eyes are not seeing it at least.