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billdeg
February 20th, 2011, 06:29 PM
I made progress hooking up my pdp 11/05 to a teletype.
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=249&tid=7

RSX11M+
February 20th, 2011, 07:40 PM
My ASR33 is on my list of projects to restore, but it's in need of quite a bit of cleaning, mechanical tinkering and lubrication. So it's not high on the priority list. [the TSV05 comes first]

I do have original service manuals for the ASR33 Teletype. [In fact... I think there are two vintages in my collection]

It isn't "easy" for me to do right now, but I can scan them to PDF if they're not available anywhere else. Please let me know if you need them, and I'll do my best.

billdeg
February 21st, 2011, 05:27 AM
I have the teletype manuals too, and the system is hooked up, etc. All I lack now are papertape images of the editor/assembler, maybe some kind of monitor program.

RSX11M+
February 21st, 2011, 08:38 AM
So... you need the Loader, Absolute loader a Monitor, and maybe ODTX. Got a manual for all that? Was just looking at one here the other night [on PDF]. I'll see if I can find it again. What's your ultimate goal?

How much memory does it have? [core?] God, I can't think how long it's been since I heard "core song".

I think the easiest way for you to get paper tapes is to make them yourself, using the ASR33 hooked to your PC. That way we can find them and get them to you easily.

Do you have blank paper [or better yet mylar] tape?


Sorry, I guess I'm coming at this thing sideways... I bet you've got this all on your blog don't you? I'd better go do my homework.

Update:

Found the manual... it's in the UQ archive I posted about DEC-11-XPTSA-A-D PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Programming Handbook, 99MB PDF.

I'll look for paper tape images. Good chance I got em' here somewhere.

billdeg
February 21st, 2011, 10:04 AM
8K core.

I don't know how to set up a 20ma current loop on a PC, but if I can't find actual tapes I will work to configure a serial card with the 11/05 system (M7856) and I will use that to download papertape images, save them to memory, and then punch tapes of what's in memory to actual physical tape. For that matter I should say that using the serial port in general is so much easier than using a teletype, but I am trying to build the base/core system as-was originally.

Bill

Chuck(G)
February 21st, 2011, 10:07 AM
If you've got the original IBM async adapter for the 5150/5160, it has current-loop drivers on it. By inverting a couple of DIP jumpers, you enable it.

jackrubin
February 21st, 2011, 11:18 AM
Please post a URL for this manual - the only UQ archive I'm aware of is the mirror via bitsavers. Seems like I'm missing something interesting!

Thanks,
Jack

jackrubin
February 21st, 2011, 01:11 PM
As I posted on another page, I now see the manual listed in _your_ UQ archive. When you get to it, I'd like a copy too, please - I've got an 11/05 on the shelf and an 11/10 and 11/20 coming in.

Thanks,
Jack

RSX11M+
February 21st, 2011, 02:26 PM
Ok Bill, thanks for the answers.

I take it from your response that you do have blank paper tape. My ASR33 is apparently EIA already, but I do happen to have an [Inmac ?] current-loop to EIA box, just in case.

I'll look for the tape images [raining here so I had some chores to do today]. Most likely they are in a PC file format intended for a simulated environment [like SIMH or E11]

I looked over the photos [good pics btw] on your blog. The markings of your backplane do not match my 11-05/10 documentation exactly. I'll try to dig out my hard copy for something that looks closer before offering any further wisdom. Love to hear that core when you get it running. [I see you're in a neighboring state... maybe some day.]

Jack - The bitsavers mirror of the UQ site data leaves much to be desired, to say the least. I was really surprised there were no good mirrors of it when I looked.

billdeg
February 21st, 2011, 04:05 PM
If you've got the original IBM async adapter for the 5150/5160, it has current-loop drivers on it. By inverting a couple of DIP jumpers, you enable it.

I did not know that! I have the docs someplace. I do have one of those cards, at least one. That's a lot better than having to use a modern PC to send the images if you're trying to be "vintage" about it.

billdeg
February 21st, 2011, 04:07 PM
<snip>

I looked over the photos [good pics btw] on your blog. The markings of your backplane do not match my 11-05/10 documentation exactly. I'll try to dig out my hard copy for something that looks closer before offering any further wisdom. Love to hear that core when you get it running. [I see you're in a neighboring state... maybe some day.]

Jack - The bitsavers mirror of the UQ site data leaves much to be desired, to say the least. I was really surprised there were no good mirrors of it when I looked.

I have the doc for the asynch adapter

IBM Asynch adapter

PIN 18 + receive current loop data
PIN 25 - receive current loop return
PIN 11 - transmit current loop data
PIN 9 + transmit current loop return

also, you have to flip the plugable module on the card near the 25 pin connector so that the dot is facing down. Down = current loop, Up = RS 232.
I have plenty of rolls of papertape
My 11/05 doc's is DEC-11-H05AA-B-D "PDP-11/05, 11/10 10 1/2 inch mounting box and power system

RSX11M+
February 21st, 2011, 04:37 PM
Bill and Jack, please check your Private Messages.

billdeg
February 21st, 2011, 06:24 PM
An 11/20? Nice. Maybe if you have time you post a picture or two when you get it.

RSX11M+
February 22nd, 2011, 12:17 AM
Bill, I've been scrutinizing the photos of where you have the cards installed in your '05's backplane, and I have concerns.


I see you have two backplanes. Were these pre-mounted? If not, were you able to identify the primary backplane in the correct location?



May I ask where you got this module configuration? I call your attention to Page 291 of the UQ 11/05 manual - "Supplement for the 10 1/2 inch Mounting Box"... and page 307 [1-9 in that supplement]



Photos I've seen seem to have Bus Grant Cards [short ones] in SLOTS 7 and 8 [G231, G110 slots] I'm pretty sure they shouldn't be there. [These are not Unibus Slots]


You may need one in SLOT 9, since you only have one core plane, but I don't see any there in the pre-configured system photos, so I doubt it.



The pre-configured system photos shows the M9970 in ROW-C-D, not E-F as in your pic? [This also agrees with your box labels for this card]



I note the traditional discrepancy between the manual definitions for SLOT 7 and 8 and the BOX labels for these slots. [When in doubt - Follow the BOX] Although you have no problem since yours aren't being used.

billdeg
February 22nd, 2011, 06:16 AM
I will take a look tonite....some of the earlier photos' card positions have been revised since the photos were taken. I will be happy to post an update.

RSX11M+
February 22nd, 2011, 12:11 PM
Good idea... that's the easiest way.

BTW - I'm having problems using the "REPLY with a Quote" function on my browser. I host a vBulletin site and decided to stay with 3.8 rather than go with 4 [for now] ... is this a common complaint?

RSX11M+
February 22nd, 2011, 08:23 PM
Just letting you know...

I have located the Paper Tape Software Images online at bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/)

While I do have them archived, it's probably just as easy for you to get them from there directly. Cruise the folders and you'll find .txt files with descriptions of each tape.
I know I saw vintages of ODTX among them for you Super Duper Paper Junkies.:boom:

See how far that Gets you Bill.

I'll be waiting for those updated photos.:cool:

RSX11M+
February 22nd, 2011, 11:01 PM
Noticed this little chart in my travels. Should help a lot to clarify things.


http://96.11.235.30:9080/supplemental/pdp11%20cpu%20features.jpg

Legend:


Q = QBUS
U = UNIBUS
mem = Maximum Addressable Memory [in 8 bit bytes - most DEC documents will refer to memory as "K Words" - which means 16 bits]
MMU = Memory Management Unit [Implements Virtual Addressing Model on systems capable of over 64KB]
UMAP = UNIBUS Mapping Registers [Virtual Addressing for UNIBUS generated addresses]
EIS = [U]Extended Instruction Set [also known as Enhanced]
FIS = Floating Point Instructuion Set [additional Microcode]
FPP = Floating Point Processor [co-processor]
CIS = Commercial Instruction Set [used in some addon products [ COBOL-11 ] ]


Notes: Although this chart is by enlarge correct, there can be variations.

The 11/23 was available in versions without MMU or EIS. It could also have FIS or CIS added.
11/73 implimented FIS in microcode, but could sometimes have an FPJ co-processor. [there was no advantage to an FPP because the J-11's floating point microcode was faster]
No indication is given which machines had CACHE
No mention is made of 16 bit vs 18 bit UNIBUS.
No mention is made of 18 vs 22 bit QBUS [LSI11] for that matter
The DCT11 microprocessor is not acknowledged here as a family member

One final thought - Those of you who have, or are contemplating, a UNIBUS CPU with a console switch regster will find a delightful surprise if you run RSX11M on your machines. RSX outputs a pattern to the console LEDs while in the idle loop, in addition to the display of actual memory patterns during program execution. It's a great light show, which I often miss, along with "core song".

You'll see.

billdeg
February 23rd, 2011, 06:58 AM
Last night I finished wiring up the teletype to the M9970 card, so I will be testing over the next few weeks. This is a slow process, I don't always have time to spend hours in a stretch. Although I did not have time for photos last night, according to my documentation the cards are all in the correct locations and the computer is responding exactly as I would expect.

Next I have to test to be sure I have the teletype wired to the computer correctly but the voltages from the computer appear to be correct.

I need to make sure that the teletype punches aligned holes, etc. (I rebuilt the thing from parts of three teletypes).

ASAP I will start by punching a memory dump, and then reading it back into a different location in memory, that kind of stuff. I have had sources of tape images. It would be nice to have an actual known-working papertape to play with, but it's not my top priority yet.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your interest.

bd

RSX11M+
February 23rd, 2011, 12:36 PM
No problemo.

When ever you're ready.

billdeg
March 4th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Just a quick post, this weekend I plan to spend more time with the system. I am on the threshhold of a breakthrough, I just need a good 8 hour block of time.

I have been able to dump memory to the teletype papertape punch, so I know that works. I can't get the system to read in a papertape image though. It may be the teletype itself.

jackrubin
March 4th, 2011, 11:52 AM
"I just need a good 8 hour block of time..."

Don't we all!! :>)

billdeg
March 5th, 2011, 04:41 PM
Still working on the teletype....

RSX11M+
March 5th, 2011, 05:04 PM
Still working on the teletype....

Let us know if there's anything we can help with.

billdeg
March 9th, 2011, 03:53 AM
The teletype turns out to have a reader control installed.

http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/thm_PandB_JR-1000.jpg

I spent the weekend working on the teletype, not the computer. Not much to show for the work, except two very cleaned teletypes and a lot of teletype manual reading. I am much less now the type to plug in and power on than my earlier days, and I will be thrilled to have accomplished the milestone of causing the teletype in the LINE position to come to attention when the computer powers on.

Once the teletype and computer are wired correctly I will be more in my comfort zone, I know how to enter programs, feed a paper tape into the teletype, and so on. What I really want to do is program but with vintage computing you have no choice, you have to be a hardware hacker first.

Bill

RSX11M+
March 9th, 2011, 10:37 AM
Yeah, I totally know what you mean about "power-on fear".

I need to go through this "hardware maintenance" phase with my ASR too... it's parts are totally gummed up with caked old grease. [who could blame it after 30 years in storage?]

You have my admiration for persisting.

billdeg
March 9th, 2011, 06:03 PM
I found some useful info here
http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-February/011092.html

billdeg
March 13th, 2011, 01:09 PM
A lot of this is new to me, but let me share what I have learned

http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/thm_PandB_terminalstrip1.jpg
If you remove the 8 plug-in connectors and the fiber strip cover, you'll reach the terminal strip of an asr 33. This particular tty has a tape reader control (not pictured). The four posts of the terminal strip: 3,4,6,7 have connectors above the terminal post. The #2 plug in connector (not pictured) is disconnected. These four wires travel through the reader control and eventually out to the computer. The jack on the end is a 9-pin female.

At least I think it's some sort of reader control...

There are two stray leads with post connector ends coming from the TTY. Not sure what to connect these to, or if they're vestigial wires from the original configuration. That's what I am starting to think, the pdp 11/05 does not seem to want them.

In short, if you want to wire up a teletype to a computer, but you're not sure what the original wiring is supposed to be doing, try hot wiring the I/O wires to terminal strip 3,4,6,7, re-assemble the plug in connectors, but don't attach plug-in connector #2.

http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/thm_noPandB_terminalstrip5.jpg
This is a "more stock" configuration, no extra patches. The I/O originates from the #2 plug-in connector, there is no hot wiring to the terminal strip like the photo at the top of this post.

Here's a picture of the plug-in connector bay for the stock ASR 33, there are 8 connector slots. Note #2 has the shield cover on it. #2 is the connector for computer i/o. Don't know much about the other plug-in connectors off the top of my head, yet. All I know is that the two teletypes have totally different patches.
http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/pandb/tty_noControl_PlugInConnectors.jpg

Neither tty uses the #1 plug-in connector

http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=408
More info from my site, lots of photos for your reference.

billdeg
March 20th, 2011, 08:24 AM
Teletype ASR 33 to PDP 11/05 complete. I tested the cable on two teletypes, 20mA connection achieved on both.

I documented how to wire up the two machines on my web site
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=249&tid=9

...but basically it's
Transmitted data return (-) attaches to terminal strip screw 6 or "number 2 connector" #7

Received data return (-) attaches to terminal strip screw 3 or num 2 connector #5

Transmitted data send (+): Terminal Strip 7, #2 connector 8

received data send (+): Term strip 4, #2 connector #6.

RSX11M+
March 20th, 2011, 03:24 PM
Congrats.

So what's the status?

You can type on the ASR and the '05 echos them to the printer?

...or are you saying you can send from the Paper Tape?

billdeg
March 21st, 2011, 10:15 AM
Congrats.

So what's the status?

You can type on the ASR and the '05 echos them to the printer?

...or are you saying you can send from the Paper Tape?

I have the PDP 11 docs and now I have to work through the I/O processing now
that the physcial connection is done. In LINE mode, the teletype comes to attention when the PDP 11/05 is powered on. I have not yet attempted to load a tape, I am hoping to be able to echo characters to the printer first.

RSX11M+
March 21st, 2011, 10:29 AM
I have the PDP 11 docs and now I have to work through the I/O processing now
that the physcial connection is done. In LINE mode, the teletype comes to attention when the PDP 11/05 is powered on. I have not yet attempted to load a tape, I am hoping to be able to echo characters to the printer first.
Ok... gotcha.

Good luck with the next phase then.

billdeg
April 14th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Congrats.

So what's the status?

You can type on the ASR and the '05 echos them to the printer?

...or are you saying you can send from the Paper Tape?

Not yet, But I was able to get the computer send "hello world" to the printer, like the video on Youtube. The only problem is that the stop bits/parity is wrong, I have to adjust on the teletype, but that's not a big deal as I have the docs. Very exciting to make the teletype print by using the front panel.

Next I want to try to load a paper tape, but I still do not have my reader responding to the bootstrap loader. I tested on my SWTPc to confirm the problem was probably with the teletype. There must be a wire not connected to the reader power or a ground or something. The comptuer is sending -15v through pins 4 and 6 of the connector cable, but I don't have these hooked up to anything on the teletype, not sure if they're needed or if the two leads coming from the teletype are supposed to be attached to 4 and 6. I was told not to do this.

bd