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NathanAllan
July 26th, 2003, 06:00 AM
Can anyone tell me of a site that has something for the C64 that is NOT a game? I like them and all, but I wanna make this machine smoke(at least my emulator, still lack a ps). Utilities, or things that are NOT games that I can experiment with. Any help appreciated greatly.

Nathan

carlsson
July 29th, 2003, 10:26 PM
There is a new (?) site under construction:

http://www.haddewig.de/nogames64/index.html

It was mentioned in the newsgroup comp.sys.cbm on the 23rd of June.

gmanuel
September 5th, 2003, 06:12 AM
Check out this site. He has images of all kins of stuff for the Commodore. ftp://arnold.c64.org/pub/ He has Games/ Utilities/ Productivity Software/ Magazines and more. Hope this helps.

Greg Manuel

Unknown_K
January 1st, 2004, 06:58 PM
Anybody know where I can find GEOS d64 images for my real Commodore 128? I havnt been able to find GEOS 128 version 2 anywhere and just wanted to try it out.

carlsson
January 1st, 2004, 11:34 PM
Anybody know where I can find GEOS d64 images for my real Commodore 128?
In theory, GEOS is still sold by Click Here Software (http://cmdrkey.com) who also sell upgrades like Wheels. This is why you may have a hard time finding copies of the software. I don't know if you can order demo versions or something.

CP/M User
January 2nd, 2004, 12:32 AM
"carlsson" wrote:

> Anybody know where I can find GEOS d64
> images for my real Commodore 128?

> In theory, GEOS is still sold by http://cmdrkey.com
> who also sell upgrades like Wheels. This is why you
> may have a hard time finding copies of the software.
> I don't know if you can order demo versions or
> something.

Dear oh Dear. Just an observation, but hasn't it
occured to them that perhaps the software is a tad out
of date & if there were any chance of updates, it would
still be worth selling?! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

carlsson
January 2nd, 2004, 02:38 AM
It is a little complex - GEOS was written by Berkeley Softworks for a number of platforms, not only the C64/128. The rights to GEOS has since then been transferred to GeoWorks, who develop new versions for low-end PCs (like yours :-), handheld and mobile units. I'm not sure if GeoWorks holds the rights to GEOS64/128, but one would assume so.

Click Here Software have developed an add-on upgrade called Wheels. Since the copyright holders to GEOS haven't given up their rights, neither CHS nor any abandonware site can offer free downloads of this 10+ years old software. Instead, CHS sells combo packs of GEOS + Wheels for a "discount"price ($79 for the C128 version). Maybe CHS could develop a completely new C64 operating system and skip GEOS, but the market for commercial C64 operating systems isn't that great.

CP/M User
January 2nd, 2004, 03:10 AM
"carlsson" wrote:

> It is a little complex - GEOS was written by
> Berkeley Softworks for a number of
> platforms, not only the C64/128. The rights
> to GEOS has since then been transferred to
> GeoWorks, who develop new versions for
> low-end PCs (like yours :-), handheld and
> mobile units. I'm not sure if GeoWorks
> holds the rights to GEOS64/128, but one
> would assume so.

Unfortunately for the Amstrads we never
really anything like that. Although a number
of programs were written & sold late in the
Amstrad's life, they were more or less inspired
from other PCs.

But at least the C64 had some luck with getting
interest from others to convert programs for
other computers.

> Click Here Software have developed an
> add-on upgrade called Wheels. Since the
> copyright holders to GEOS haven't given
> up their rights, neither CHS nor any
> abandonware site can offer free downloads
> of this 10+ years old software. Instead,
> CHS sells combo packs of GEOS + Wheels
> for a "discount"price ($79 for the C128
> version). Maybe CHS could develop a
> completely new C64 operating system and
> skip GEOS, but the market for commercial
> C64 operating systems isn't that great.

Oh dear, it seems incredible having a machine
which is 20 years old that has something to
offer, in which needs to be brought! :-)

Do you know what media it's on & which
language they used?

Cheers,
CP/M User.

vic user
January 2nd, 2004, 03:47 AM
Can anyone tell me of a site that has something for the C64 that is NOT a game? I like them and all, but I wanna make this machine smoke(at least my emulator, still lack a ps). Utilities, or things that are NOT games that I can experiment with. Any help appreciated greatly.

Nathan

Hi Nathan;

I have a ton of non game software for the 64, although I have tried hardly any of it. This is part of that huge pile of software I got recently.

I can make list of what I have, and I can always make copies and photocopy docs for you.

Then I can mail some stuff out to you, and you can reimburse me by sending me back blank low density 5 1/4 floppies.

Chris

Unknown_K
January 2nd, 2004, 03:53 AM
Well im not paying $79 just to kick the tires on 15 year old software I dont plan on using productively. Especially software thats copy protected on old 5.25 media. My only other options are to find somebody who can made some d64 images or wait for a cheap version on EBAY and hope it works long enough to test it out.

carlsson
January 2nd, 2004, 12:20 PM
Oh dear, it seems incredible having a machine
which is 20 years old that has something to offer, in which needs to be brought! :-)
You mean in terms of software? Protovision are developing and selling new games and utility software as we speak (2003). Ironstone Partners will probably too, but it is not known in what form they will license their products. The C64 has fairly active users, but unfortunately also fairly active pirates who will do what they can to finally damage the aftermarket (and maybe upset the IP holders enough to bring the whole emulation scene underground, as I fear).

Do you know what media it's on & which language they used?
Probably 5.25" floppies, maybe 3.5" floppies if you have a such drive. Dunno about the language, but possibly a mix of high level and assembler.

CP/M User
January 2nd, 2004, 12:23 PM
"Unknown_K" wrote:

> Well im not paying $79 just to kick the tires on
> 15 year old software I dont plan on using
> productively. Especially software thats copy
> protected on old 5.25 media. My only other
> options are to find somebody who can made
> some d64 images or wait for a cheap version
> on EBAY and hope it works long enough to test
> it out.

$79 bucks does seem a bit expensive for software
that age. However, a while back some joker
advertised their CP/M software at comp.os.cpm,
which was even older & wanted hundred of dollars
for! I even found a site on the web a while ago
which was still flogging an enhancement library
routine for CBASIC86 & even that wasn't cheap.

Anybody else know of cases where there've had
to pay lots of money for ol' software (eBay
perhaps) or even seen ol' software at ridiculus
prices?

Cheers,
CP/M User.

CP/M User
January 2nd, 2004, 12:43 PM
"carlsson" wrote:

>> Oh dear, it seems incredible having a machine
>> which is 20 years old that has something to
>> offer, in which needs to be brought! :-)

> You mean in terms of software? Protovision are
> developing and selling new games and utility
> software as we speak (2003). Ironstone
> Partners will probably too, but it is not known in
> what form they will license their products. The
> C64 has fairly active users, but unfortunately
> also fairly active pirates who will do what they
> can to finally damage the aftermarket (and
> maybe upset the IP holders enough to bring the
> whole emulation scene underground, as I fear).

That's right I forgot someone did tell me that new
games were still being made for the C64. I think
it's lucky computer in a way, since it's still got a
large number of users. I could be wrong about my
Amstrad, but I haven't seen any commercial
development for quite some time & even then it
was still a battle for software companies like
Radical Software which shut down around the same
time as Amstrad Action mag did in 1995. Cause
the same publisher ceased the C64 mag at the
same time.

However, I can't quite understand how the C64 has
still had quite a large user base, but it's the reason
why there are still software companies still making
new software for it. The Amstrad lost quite a few
people to other machines, which is why we are still
in smaller numbers. Trying to get users back that
machine wouldn't be easy & at least convincing
someone that it has a large user base would mean
lots of users would have to comunicate their ideas
from time to time, to show there are more.
The Internet has help consideribly for this machine
in that some people are comming back & looking
for games they used to play on the Amstrad, but
perhaps not enough to warrant enough interest.

It's really a matter of how the machine has come
since the demise of AA in 1995, more people are
perhaps convinced that any programs written
for it, should have little or no value to it. But if
C64 users are happy to pay for their software then
that's all that matters! :-)

>> Do you know what media it's on & which
>> language they used?

> Probably 5.25" floppies, maybe 3.5" floppies if
> you have a such drive. Dunno about the
> language, but possibly a mix of high level and
> assembler.

Surely there must be a 3.5" drive for this
machine. There maybe still a lot of 5.25" disks
out there, but ASAIK they have stopped making
them (unless this C64 company makes the disks
themselves).

Cheers,
CP/M User.

carlsson
January 3rd, 2004, 02:48 AM
$79 bucks does seem a bit expensive for software
that age.
Some people believe if there is money to make out of something, then let's try to make money out of it. All of us suckers who are stuck in the 70ties or 80ties computing have a hobby with a potential to be profitable to anyone who has the right things to offer.

Although I would not pay $50 for a 10 year old software plus another $20 for a recent upgrade, somehow I prefer this solution over not being able to get the software at all (as many software publishing houses both deny free redistribution and the possibility to buy their own titles which since long has ceased from the back catalogue).


I could be wrong about my Amstrad, but I haven't seen any commercial development for quite some time
I believe Cronosoft have a few newly produced games for the Amstrad, just like they have titles for the Spectrum, C64, BBC etc. Personally I don't believe in their concept, but good luck to the programmers who license their works to them.


However, I can't quite understand how the C64 has still had quite a large user base, but it's the reason why there are still software companies still making new software for it.
It might have something to do with the C64 was released in 1982 as a follow-up to the PET, VIC-20 etc, so it had many years to become popular. The Amstrad line was at least released in 1984 or early 1985, and had to battle an already crowded market. Actually the only Amstrad related machine I've ever seen live in Sweden was a Schneider PC, and that was on a flea market two years ago.


Surely there must be a 3.5" drive for this machine.
Yes, the 1581 is a 3.5" unit and has later been followed by CMD's FD-2000 and FD-4000 (IIRC). The 1581 was released quite late, about 1988.


There maybe still a lot of 5.25" disks out there, but ASAIK they have stopped making them (unless this C64 company makes the disks themselves).
As a matter of fact, Jens Schönfeld of Individual Computers (http://www.jschoenfeld.de) announced on December 10th, 2003 that production of 5.25" DS SD 48 TPI (hmm.. I remember 48 TPI disks labeled DD?) has been restarted in a factory in California, and those can be ordered from Jens for 10 EUR (approx 12 USD) per 25 disks plus shipping.

As I see it, the commercial Commodore scene mainly consists of:
Tulip (IP holders) together with Ironstone Partners (IP developers)
Click Here Software, selling the Creative Micro Designs (CMD) hardware/software: SuperCPU/SuperRAM, CMD FD-2000/HD-1000, JiffyDOS and GeoWorks software in form of GEOS/Wheels
Protovision, selling various hardware, games and other software
Individual Computers, producing and selling hardware (of which some is sold through Protovision)

with honorable mentions to Cronosoft, the X1541 shop w/partners and a few liquidation warehouse webshops, who mostly set insanely high prices and then grunts about no customers but great costs for storing the stuff.

CP/M User
January 3rd, 2004, 12:35 PM
"carlsson" wrote:

>> $79 bucks does seem a bit expensive for software
>> that age.

> Some people believe if there is money to make out
> of something, then let's try to make money out of
> it. All of us suckers who are stuck in the 70ties or
> 80ties computing have a hobby with a potential to
> be profitable to anyone who has the right things to
> offer.

Something I worry about is the programs I write are
for free, yet I might say they are freeware which
unlike PD, I have copyright over, I'd rather see my
programs going to people who use them for
non-profit than some shareware or commercial
software which charges you $50 bucks to use it.

> Although I would not pay $50 for a 10 year old
> software plus another $20 for a recent upgrade,
> somehow I prefer this solution over not being able
> to get the software at all (as many software
> publishing houses both deny free redistribution and
> the possibility to buy their own titles which since
> long has ceased from the back catalogue).

>> I could be wrong about my Amstrad, but I
>> haven't seen any commercial development
>> for quite some time

> I believe Cronosoft have a few newly produced
> games for the Amstrad, just like they have titles
> for the Spectrum, C64, BBC etc. Personally I
> don't believe in their concept, but good luck to
> the programmers who license their works to
> them.

I'm not familar with them, but if they do sell new
games for those systems, then it's up to the Zines
to buy the games & review them! (well maybe
that's going too far) :-)

Or maybe it's the other way around & Cronosoft
should send their games to these Zines so at
least know about them.

>> However, I can't quite understand how the
>> C64 has still had quite a large user base, but
>> it's the reason why there are still software
>> companies still making new software for it.

> It might have something to do with the C64 was
> released in 1982 as a follow-up to the PET,
> VIC-20 etc, so it had many years to become
> popular. The Amstrad line was at least released
> in 1984 or early 1985, and had to battle an
> already crowded market. Actually the only
> Amstrad related machine I've ever seen live in
> Sweden was a Schneider PC, and that was on a
> flea market two years ago.

The Amstrad CPC464 was the first to come out in
April 1984, then the Amstrad CPC664 (with the 3"
Disk Drive) late 84 & the Amstrad CPC6128 a few
months down the track. The Amstrad CPC664 was
scraped first (though I'm not sure when), which
left the CPC464 & CPC6128 being sold up to 1989
or 1990 when the new Plus machines were
released.

I guess the real break though with the CPC464
when it came out, was the price & the combinations
which you could buy. Since you could have either
a Green Screen Monitor or Colour Monitor, Disk
Drive or No Disk Drive. The CPC464 had a built in
tape deck (to load your games in) which I'd image
would have been a fairly attractive machine with
an attractive price (depending on how much you
wanted to spend!)

>> Surely there must be a 3.5" drive for this machine.

> Yes, the 1581 is a 3.5" unit and has later been
> followed by CMD's FD-2000 and FD-4000 (IIRC).
> The 1581 was released quite late, about 1988.

Oh geez, after the updated C64! :-)

>> There maybe still a lot of 5.25" disks out there,
>> but ASAIK they have stopped making them
>> (unless this C64 company makes the disks
>> themselves).

> As a matter of fact, http://www.jschoenfeld.de
> announced on December 10th, 2003 that
> production of 5.25" DS SD 48 TPI (hmm.. I
> remember 48 TPI disks labeled DD?) has
> been restarted in a factory in California, and
> those can be ordered from Jens for 10 EUR
> (approx 12 USD) per 25 disks plus shipping.

Yes, I thought that 5.25" DS DD 48 TPI were
doubled sided. I have a 5.25" drive on my
Amstrad since, however it's a Double Sided
Double Density drive. An ol' friend of mine
which had a C64 also gave me some of his
disks, which were DS DD (for me to have for
my XT at the time).

> As I see it, the commercial Commodore scene
> mainly consists of:

> * Tulip (IP holders) together with Ironstone
> Partners (IP developers)
> * Click Here Software, selling the Creative Micro
> Designs (CMD) hardware/software:
> SuperCPU/SuperRAM, CMD FD-2000/HD-1000,
> JiffyDOS and GeoWorks software in form of
> GEOS/Wheels

I've actually seen this SuperCPU/SuperRAM thing,
the SuperCPU as I recall, is a Cartridge.

> * Protovision, selling various hardware, games
> and other software

Are they still going? I thought they would have
been long gone!

> * Individual Computers, producing and selling
> hardware (of which some is sold through
> Protovision)

> with honorable mentions to Cronosoft, the X1541
> shop w/partners and a few liquidation warehouse
> webshops, who mostly set insanely high prices
> and then grunts about no customers but great
> costs for storing the stuff.

Where've had people who still sell stuff for the
Amstrad (mostly Second Hand), but the prices
they sell them for are ridiculously high, in that
they are the same prices or even higher for a
piece of software which was new in it's day.

When the Amstrad was going through it's phase
from being a commercial games machine to
public domain software, I was able to get some
games through the UK at extremely cheap prices.
Some of them were as cheap as £2->£3 & I was
buying buget games on tape for as low as £1.99
or 5 for £7.50. I also got lots of 3" disks (since
they were so rare here & costed nearly $100
dollars for 10. I brought around 10 ex-commercial
(which were just as good as the new ones) for
£20 for 10 (which at the time worked at about $40
dollars).

Cheers,
CP/M User.

carlsson
January 4th, 2004, 03:29 AM
I'd rather see my programs going to people who use them for non-profit than some shareware or commercial software which charges you $50 bucks to use it.
Well, apply a freeware or open source license to your software. There are tons of different licenses to choose from, and by doing that, you have some trivial rights against anyone stealing your work to sell it.

Check http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ for further advice.


Yes, I thought that 5.25" DS DD 48 TPI were doubled sided.
The interesting thing with 1541/71 series is that it uses single density, but GCR encoding and various number of sectors per track etc to squeeze in almost as much data on a disk as e.g. a IBM PC drive with double density in standard mode. Maybe the number of possible tracks per inch was independent of the recording density within the track?


Protovision - Are they still going? I thought they would have been long gone!
No, they just released a couple of new (free) games. So they have both free downloads and commercial titles.

CP/M User
January 4th, 2004, 12:10 PM
"carlsson" wrote:

> Check http://www.opensource.org/licenses/
> for further advice.

Okay, I might just check that.

>> Yes, I thought that 5.25" DS DD 48 TPI
>> were doubled sided.

> The interesting thing with 1541/71 series is
> that it uses single density, but GCR
> encoding and various number of sectors
> per track etc to squeeze in almost as much
> data on a disk as e.g. a IBM PC drive with
> double density in standard mode. Maybe
> the number of possible tracks per inch was
> independent of the recording density within
> the track?

Well I'm not quite sure, all I know is a friend
of mine gave me some DSDD disks which he
used on his C64. I can't remember if they
were already IBM formatted & they he needed
to format them for his C64, as I was very
tentetive about formatting (particularly when
I was new to it & had this IBM XT).

He had a later C64 (in the new box), so I don't
know if that makes any difference & I can't
remember if the drive was external or internal,
think it was external. Anyway, what happened
was he was getting rid of his C64 for an IBM &
was giving away his 5.25", so since he knew I
had a XT with 5.25" he gave those disks to me.

>> Protovision - Are they still going? I thought
>> they would have been long gone!

> No, they just released a couple of new (free)
> games. So they have both free downloads
> and commercial titles.

That's quite funny actually, cause if you've seen
Wargames with Matthew Broderick then you'll
know he tries to hack into Protovision (if I'm not
mistaken) & now there're giving away their
games! :-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

barryp
January 4th, 2004, 11:17 PM
[quote]Yes, I thought that 5.25" DS DD 48 TPI were doubled sided.

The interesting thing with 1541/71 series is that it uses single density, but GCR encoding and various number of sectors per track etc to squeeze in
almost as much data on a disk as e.g. a IBM PC drive with double density in standard mode. Maybe the number of possible tracks per inch was independent of the recording density within the track?

Single density is FM, double density is MFM. Both are independent of tracks per inch. You can have 40 tracks or 80 tracks on the same sized disk.

What Apple, Commodore, and Atari (and probably others) did was to vary the number of sectors per track.

Most companies used a constant number of sectors per track; IBM started with 8.

BTW: the other variables are sector size and number of sides.

carlsson
February 3rd, 2004, 01:07 PM
Well im not paying $79 just to kick the tires on 15 year old software I dont plan on using productively.
There is a rumour/announcement from Click Here Software, the current official distributor of GEOS (and the CMD hardware) that GEOS 64 and 128, v2.0 soon will be available as free downloads from the web page.

Whether this rumour is true and when it will take place I don't know, but I guess it will also increase the potential market for the Wheels expansion (in particular if it is reasonably priced after releasing the original GEOS).

Unknown_K
February 3rd, 2004, 01:30 PM
Interesting, sales must be real low to offer it for free. Let us know if the rumor is true.

carlsson
February 3rd, 2004, 01:35 PM
Or Maurice has made a deal with the current copyright owners to freely distribute the software on his site in return of some links and the goodwill. Check http://www.cmdrkey.com yourself.

carlsson
February 4th, 2004, 11:40 PM
Latest news about free GEOS:

It will be downloadable in a set of files, with instructions on how to create your disks. All the normal applications are included. The add-on GEOS applications still for sale (geoPublish, geoFile etc) will work also with the downloaded copy, while the Wheels expansion requires original disks (i.e. not downloaded) to run.

Ready-made GEOS disks ($25) will be available for sale, and the GEOS + Wheels ($25) combo costs $40. It will be possible to use a CMD HD/FD or RAMlink, but to make GEOS boot from one of those devices, the user will have to buy geoMakeBoot for $10.

It sounds like a good deal for anyone only wanting to play around with GEOS, but if the idea is to get as many Wheels customers as possible, it seems a little disturbing to ask for $15-$25 extra only because you want to become a customer.

Unknown_K
February 4th, 2004, 11:56 PM
Any idea of a timeframe for the free download?

I think the $40 for wheels and geos 2 is probably cheaper then what it used to cost.

I see alot of people like me d/l geos 128 2.0 just to check it out, but how many really want to upgrade it to wheels since its basically obsolete for any real work?

To get a semi decent setup you need a superCPU and a big ram expansion which would cost more then a new wallmart pc that you can actually do other things with. Its just for the few C128 dieshards I guess. Even a compact mac is a better option then going with geos on the c64.

carlsson
February 5th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Any idea of a timeframe for the free download? I think the $40 for wheels and geos 2 is probably cheaper then what it used to cost.
No, but if you are keen on obtaining it, I would suggest to check the web site once every two weeks or something like that. Yes, previously the combo cost $79, so the price is slashed in half.

Regarding obsolete, it depends like you say on how die-hard you are. With a SuperCPU, RAMLink and CMD HD, GEOS and followers may be quite competitive even today, in particular if equipped with an Ethernet cartridge of some kind. Anyone going there probably won't consider a PC which crashes all the time or a Mac which only looks fluffy.

carlsson
February 12th, 2004, 10:39 PM
Now GEOS is finally available for download. It is a 13 step process, and it will require quite some hand work to get it working I'm afraid, since GEOS is installed to a floppy much like how you today install things to a HD - it is not a prerecorded OS to boot out of the disk.

I haven't tried it myself, and I don't know if I have incentive to do so neither. But good luck to anyone getting it.

CP/M User
February 13th, 2004, 12:26 AM
"carlsson" wrote :

> Now GEOS is finally available for download...

What?!?, so now it's available for Zip Zero?!

Looks like someone found my comments &
decided to release it as freeware or something!
:-)

Maybe they feared that tons of C64 users would
find my comments & go after them! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.