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tezza
July 25th, 2011, 02:10 AM
Hi,

I've got a Classic II I've interited with the dreaded "At EASE" program installed. The Admin password is long gone of course.

I want to put a clean copy of 7.1 on the internal disk. I've tried booting from disk one of the installation set but that gets spat out. I'm not sure if that's because AT EASE stops it (likely) or just that the drive isn't functioning properly. I've tried holding shift down to turn off the extension. Same result...disk is ejected then At EASE boots.

I then tried booting from an external drive by holding cmd-opt-shift-del-# (# being number of the external drive). I figured if I could boot from this I could re-initialise the internal drive. Booting works, however I can't see the internal drive. Just the external one?? I get the same result when I hold cmd-opt-shift-del down.

Am I missing something? Shouldn't the internal drive show up, even if I've booted off an external one? Or is this another one of At EASE's security features?

Tez

RetroHacker_
July 25th, 2011, 05:10 AM
Am I missing something? Shouldn't the internal drive show up, even if I've booted off an external one? Or is this another one of At EASE's security features?


It might be. It's a been a while since I saw that dreadful thing... Can you see the disk if you run HD Setup? Another possibility, make sure your external drive is not set to the same SCSI ID as the internal drive, and that it's properly terminated, it might be screwing up the SCSI bus somehow. Also, try unterminating the external drive - I've seen some weird things...

-Ian

tezza
July 25th, 2011, 02:31 PM
It might be. It's a been a while since I saw that dreadful thing... Can you see the disk if you run HD Setup? Another possibility, make sure your external drive is not set to the same SCSI ID as the internal drive, and that it's properly terminated, it might be screwing up the SCSI bus somehow. Also, try unterminating the external drive - I've seen some weird things...

Thanks Ian, Yes I tried running HD setup. Can't see it there either.

The external SCSI ID is certainly different than the internal one. The external drive is NOT terminated so maybe this is the problem, but I wouldn't have thought non-termination would have caused the non-appearence of the internal drive. Anyway, I've just rummaged around in a box in my office here at work and found a SCSI terminator! (joy!). I'll try this tonight.

Tez

tezza
July 26th, 2011, 01:39 AM
Nope the terminator didn't work. No difference.

This is not suppose to happen is it? You are suppose to see the internal drive even when you boot off an external, right?

The reason I ask is I tried the same thing with my good (non-At EASE) Mac Classic II and got exactly the same thing. See the external ok, but not the internal?

DOS lives on!!
July 26th, 2011, 03:48 AM
Sounds like that's an internal option that's been set. If you plug in an external hard drive, the internal one stops working. Same idea with older laptops, if a PS/2 mouse gets plugged in, the internal trackpad gets disabled.

RetroHacker_
July 26th, 2011, 04:24 AM
It's *supposed* to see the internal drive as well, though. It's one SCSI chain.

What version of HD Setup are you using, and are the drives Apple branded? The Apple HD Setup that shipped with old versions of the System Software will only see an Apple branded drive, but the A/UX version will see anything. Similarly, there are patched versions out there that will see any drive. And, of course, the third party programs like SCSIProbe and Lido will be able to see any drive.

But, regardless, if the internal drive is formatted, then it's supposed to show up on the desktop, regardless of what kind of drive it is. It could still be a termination issue. Can you boot from floppy and see the internal drive? Have you zapped the PRAM? (yeah, I know, shouldn't matter, but sometimes this causes weird problems if it's corrupt).

-Ian

tezza
July 26th, 2011, 01:00 PM
It's *supposed* to see the internal drive as well, though. It's one SCSI chain.

What version of HD Setup are you using, and are the drives Apple branded? The Apple HD Setup that shipped with old versions of the System Software will only see an Apple branded drive, but the A/UX version will see anything. Similarly, there are patched versions out there that will see any drive. And, of course, the third party programs like SCSIProbe and Lido will be able to see any drive.

But, regardless, if the internal drive is formatted, then it's supposed to show up on the desktop, regardless of what kind of drive it is. It could still be a termination issue. Can you boot from floppy and see the internal drive? Have you zapped the PRAM? (yeah, I know, shouldn't matter, but sometimes this causes weird problems if it's corrupt).

-Ian

I'm using OS 7.1. Yes the SCSI chain is terminated and I zapped the PRAM. I'm still having problems seeing the At Ease drive though. Here is a summary.

Problem: An "At Ease" drive with a lost Admin password. I want to restore this drive to 7.1.

1. Boot with a 7.1. Disk tools floppy. No hard drive seen and Setup SC HD doesn't see anything on the SCSI chain. (with my other Classic II with a normal drive, I CAN see the HD...must be an AT EASE security thing).

2. Boot with an external hard drive. No hard drive seen, only external drive. I can also see a floppy if I put it in. Setup SC HD doesn't see anything on the SCSI chain. However, Norton's Disk doctor DOES see the internal HD but ONLY if you select the "Missing drive?" option from the menu. It then searches the SCSI chain and shows it?? Unfortunately, it doesn't show it when you come to use the "Wipe" utility which will nuke the drive.

What's odd about 2. is these same symptoms occur with my NORMAL Classic II as well, so it doesn't seem to be associated with AT EASE.

The external drive is not Apple branded but it is definitely for an Apple machine of this vintage.

I'm wondering what would happen if I physically swapped the two drives i.e. put the external one inside the machine, and the AT EASE one in the external drive case? I don't know a lot about the SCSI system in Macs so I'm not sure if this will work? The external drive has a switch where you can set the SCSI number. I can't see any switches on the internal hard drive so maybe it's hardwired to be zero?

Tez

Chuck(G)
July 26th, 2011, 02:11 PM
I think maybe it's a good idea to separate the issue of a device failure from some overly-protected software. Can you boot from a floppy with SCSI Probe on it and see the drive?

tezza
July 26th, 2011, 02:34 PM
I think maybe it's a good idea to separate the issue of a device failure from some overly-protected software. Can you boot from a floppy with SCSI Probe on it and see the drive?

With the AT EASE hard drive, no.

On the System 7.1 installation set there is a disk is called "Disk Tools". It has a HD Setup SCSI program on it which is suppose to check the SCSI line and (on the user request) prepare any drive there. With the AT EASE drive machine, it can't see it the internal hard disk.

On my other Classic though, the hard drive IS visible.

I imagine this "invisibility" when the machine is booted from a floppy is an AT EASE security feature, to stop kids messing with the HD by booting with a floppy. One way to definitely prove that would be to swap the internal drives of both machines and boot with a floppy on the machine that used to house AT EASE, but now has a normal drive.

Tez

Chuck(G)
July 26th, 2011, 03:10 PM
What I was talking about was the Mac Classic OS tool from Adaptec called SCSI Probe (http://www.tucows.com/preview/207026). It doesn't care what's on the drive; it just sends messages to the device and reports on what it finds. The device can be any SCSI device.

tezza
July 27th, 2011, 02:44 AM
Well, it's all sorted.

Ian, following your advice I downloaded and patched version 7.3.5 of the HD SCSI setup program. I then put this version on a boot floppy, booted and ran it. This patched program recognised the hard drive and I was able to re-initialise it.

I downloaded and installed SCSI Probe 5.2 but on running it, it told me I needed another program to use it (I can't remember what).

Interestingly. even the patched setup didn't see the AT EASE drive when it was attached as an external drive (as SCSI 1 and terminated). Maybe HD SC Setup only works on the internal hard drive.

Anyway, thanks for your help guys. I'm finding TransMac a very useful program and worth the money.

Tez