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Mister_Alex
September 1st, 2011, 09:14 AM
I am getting an old Macintosh SE in the mail soon and am so psyched at the prospect of programming for it. But the seller told me it doesn't come with a compiler, and I haven't the faintest clue where to buy vintage software. I want to code my own stuff so much. . . can anyone help?

gubbish
September 1st, 2011, 09:21 AM
Hypercard is fun on old Macs. Also I think I saw a C compiler somewhere, I'll check again..

commodorejohn
September 1st, 2011, 11:13 AM
Macintosh Garden (http://macintoshgarden.org/) is a good source for Mac software. I don't think you're likely to get Macintosh Programmer's Workshop running on an SE (unless it's actually an SE/30,) but Think C (http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/symantec-think-c-v60) should run on it pretty well.

Mister_Alex
September 1st, 2011, 01:04 PM
I am not entirely sure which model the Mac is. I'll post when it arrives. :)

billdeg
September 1st, 2011, 06:13 PM
Version 3 of the MPW (Mac Programmer's Worshop) from 1985 includes an 68000 assembler with references to routines within the Apple MAC memory map for drawing the boxes, using the pointer, desktop functions, file save, etc. Assembler is the default language of the earliest MAC's. Inside the Macintosh reference (vols 1-4) teaches developers how to program the MAC. The MPW software includes an assembler, etc. Apple had a C add-on at some point in 1985 that you could use instead of pure assembler, buy you'd need two drives to effectively do any serious development and memory would be an issue, your programs would be pretty simple.

There is also Aztec C for the early MACs

I would think you'd have to be patient to write software for the 128K MAC *on* the 128K MAC. You'd want to write somewhere else then port to the 128K MAC. Lisa's (Running MAC XL OS) could also use Pascal (if you happen to have a Lisa) tool to write the ap and then convert into assembly for use on the early MACs. You'd port the software from the Lisa to the MAC.

If you can get the MPW reference , it will have assembly language routines and samples, and will walk you through how to compile, etc your code. You can make little boxes and such.

I wonder what kinds of computers they were using to write early MAC software, I doubt they did it on a MAC at first. What did Woz write the assembler with? A DEC PDP 11/? A Lisa of some sort?

About your particular MAC SE, whichever one you get, get a version of C for MAC that will compile into a form compatible with your SE 30. You may be confined to the OS that comes with your development kit. I'd be interested to learn how this works out for you.
Bill

commodorejohn
September 1st, 2011, 06:44 PM
I would think you'd have to be patient to write software for the 128K MAC *on* the 128K MAC. You'd want to write somewhere else then port to the 128K MAC. Lisa's (Running MAC XL OS) could also use Pascal (if you happen to have a Lisa) tool to write the ap and then convert into assembly for use on the early MACs. You'd port the software from the Lisa to the MAC.
It's not a 128K Mac, though, it's a Mac SE, and that means a minimum of 1MB RAM, and possibly a much faster processor if it's an SE/30. Either one is going to be much more capable.

I wonder what kinds of computers they were using to write early MAC software, I doubt they did it on a MAC at first. What did Woz write the assembler with? A DEC PDP 11/? A Lisa of some sort?
According to Andy Hertzfeld's accounts at folklore.org, (http://www.folklore.org) Mac development was in Pascal on the Lisa throughout the original Mac development. (I believe they switched to Mac-hosted Pascal afterwards, probably once the 512K "Fat Mac" came out.) Probably not the best option, though, even if you already own a Lisa - they're only 5MHz as compared with even the original Mac, and anything post-Mac Plus is likely to beat it out for RAM.

Mister_Alex
September 2nd, 2011, 08:25 AM
My Mac arrived! It is an original model with one floppy disk drive. I know a little of the 'C' language. Where could I get the disks for Macintosh Programmers Workshop?

billdeg
September 2nd, 2011, 09:57 AM
Ah...it was the original MAC after all, and so it begins....

commodorejohn
September 2nd, 2011, 09:58 AM
Apple used to have it for free on their FTP site but they've since taken it down (ah, the spurning of even passive legacy support, joy.) A mirror does exist here, (http://mirrors.vanadac.com/ftp.apple.com/developer/Tool_Chest/Core_Mac_OS_Tools/) luckily. However, IIRC that version requires a minimum of 3.5MB RAM just to run. Also, if your SE doesn't have a hard disk installed, it's not going to do you much good, as it's several megabytes.

Mister_Alex
September 3rd, 2011, 05:06 AM
The Mac has a few games on it so it must have some hard drive space. But how in the world do I get something onto a floppy disk in this day and age?
Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions, but I haven't paid much attention to computers in awhile. :)

DOS lives on!!
September 3rd, 2011, 05:23 AM
Look at this article on transferring files to a Macintosh SE,

http://www.ccadams.org/se/serial.html

After looking at that, I might as well try these on my SE.:)

commodorejohn
September 3rd, 2011, 06:28 AM
Setting a classic Mac up for file transfer from PCs can be such a chicken-and-egg problem. If you're using System 7, at least, you'll have Apple File Exchange either on the hard drive or on the system disks, but otherwise it's just crazy hard.

billdeg
September 3rd, 2011, 07:16 AM
OK. Rewind here. It's not the first MAC, nevermind. What is the exact model number? Does not matter.

Before you start writing programs, you need to learn everything about your computer, at least at the OS level and the basic hardware set up configuration. You might be better to start with Hypercard.

Bill

commodorejohn
September 3rd, 2011, 10:13 AM
He said it's an original Mac SE (i.e. not the SE/30) with one floppy and a hard disk - no idea it it's an 800KB floppy or SuperDrive. Also, he said he's familiar with C, so learning via Hypercard probably wouldn't do much - it'd be better to peruse the API reference and some example source to learn how Mac OS works.

billdeg
September 3rd, 2011, 02:48 PM
He said it's an original Mac SE (i.e. not the SE/30) with one floppy and a hard disk - no idea it it's an 800KB floppy or SuperDrive. Also, he said he's familiar with C, so learning via Hypercard probably wouldn't do much - it'd be better to peruse the API reference and some example source to learn how Mac OS works.

Fair enough. I went ahead and found the original development kit that would have worked on the Lisa, I might want to set up a little dev system to see how hard it would be to write and compile a program on the Lisa and then run it on the original MAC 128K. But given my long list of current projects I may for now just archive the disks.

commodorejohn
September 3rd, 2011, 03:42 PM
I bet a lot of Mac enthusiasts would be happy to have them archived :)

billdeg
September 3rd, 2011, 05:53 PM
I bet a lot of Mac enthusiasts would be happy to have them archived :)

I never thought these were not available. Its.a 4 volume book set and about 8 disks. The books walk a person through how to write assembler code in detail how to access the routines etc. I will post on my site.

Mister_Alex
September 6th, 2011, 01:51 PM
Sorry to take so long in getting back to everyone, but I've been searching out info on as many compilers/languages as I can. Anyways, the Model number is M5011. Does that mean anything to anyone?

billdeg
September 6th, 2011, 08:29 PM
It's an SE. Basically you'll have to hunt around for something that can compile into the OS you're using. The exact model is important, but you need to determine your particular system's RAM, etc. The 5011 could have an older 400K disk drive, or it could have been upgraded. You're going to have to spend some time getting acquainted with your hardware.

Bill

AppleIIfan
September 6th, 2011, 08:47 PM
For file transfer, Find yourself a DaynaPort E/Z Serial to ethernet adapter and download the linintosh server VM, youll be able to transfer files from your modern windows pcs or macs to the old stuff

http://ld8.org/~gavo/linintosh/index.html

billdeg
September 7th, 2011, 06:39 PM
eh...It'd be easier for me to copy to a compact flash card and upload that way, but whatever easiest for you.
Bill

RWallmow
September 15th, 2011, 12:11 PM
http://ld8.org/~gavo/linintosh/index.html
That torrent needed to follow the "linintosh" instructions there was stalled with no one seeding for the longest time, but I finally got it and I am going to keep it seeding now for anyone who wants to mess with that. Not going to link to any torrent sites, but its pretty easy to find.

RWallmow
September 19th, 2011, 07:59 AM
That torrent needed to follow the "linintosh" instructions there was stalled with no one seeding for the longest time, but I finally got it and I am going to keep it seeding now for anyone who wants to mess with that. Not going to link to any torrent sites, but its pretty easy to find.No one was downloading in the last 4 days, so with that little interest in it I just 7-zipped and archived it to my webhost (http://acrpc.net/utils/linintosh.exe), rather than have to leave my PC on if no one was going to download.

Hatta
September 27th, 2011, 07:24 AM
Decent set of instructions, but it seems to me that a Mac SE ethernet adaptor is a lot harder to come by than a mac formatted floppy with shrinkit and zterm. It would be really nice if they'd implement appletalk over rs-232 in Netatalk.

RWallmow
September 27th, 2011, 07:50 AM
Decent set of instructions, but it seems to me that a Mac SE ethernet adaptor is a lot harder to come by than a mac formatted floppy with shrinkit and zterm. It would be really nice if they'd implement appletalk over rs-232 in Netatalk.
I agree appletalk over RS232 would be a nice addition, you could try using a newer (still serial capable with built in ethernet) mac as a bridge. As far as ethernet adapters go, they do pop up on ebay from time to time, just have to be patient, asante is probably the biggest/most common manufacturer, the "EN SC" (External SCSI) or their internal "MacCon+ SE" (SE PDS Slot) are the most common offerings for an SE, there are also some Serial connected Ethernet adapters for early Macs, and some Ethernet to Appletalk converters that MAY work (not all do, some are only for attaching old appletalk printers to modern ethernet macs, so research those before buying).

It is really nice having ethernet on the old Macs for more than just file transfer, they can make decent mail readers or telnet terminals, though for actual web browsing they are pretty useless (though some sites mobile site versions are quite usable on old browsers). Though most these tasks can be done via dial up or serial connection to a *nix box with console redirected to its com port, so ethernet is not STRICTLY needed for this.