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mactwiggy
January 25th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Haven't opened the case yet (due to not owning the screwdriver necessary to for a while now), but this appears to be a prototype Macintosh with the original 5 1/4" twiggy drive still intact. The only other one I've found to exist on the internet has had the Twiggy drive replaced with a 3.5" one. It powers up to a normal blinking Mac floppy symbol, but I don't have the floppy discs to boot it from. Really curious to see what's inside it when I get the proper tool. I got a prototype keyboard with it too, no mouse though.

http://i.imgur.com/6YjRAl.jpg

platatomi
January 27th, 2012, 09:50 AM
Very cool! What does the back look like? Are the ports different than the 128k?

olePigeon
January 27th, 2012, 09:57 AM
That is totally awesome! I'd love to see more pictures, I have a small collection of pictures of Apple prototypes. I'd love to see the inside of the machine and how they managed to fit the twiggy in there.

Also, might I ask from where you picked it up?

Edit: Someone needs to get this guy a Lisa boot disk stat! Or maybe System 6 on a Twiggy disk? Is that eve possible?

dorkbert
January 27th, 2012, 10:08 AM
I didn't realise Twiggy got far enough for Apple to cut the steel mold for the Mac case; I knew they had it for Lisa, but didn't know they did the Mac. Got photo of the rear and bottom as well? This (http://lowendmac.com/tech/macintosh.html) is the only other photo I am aware of. Please photo-document the heck out of this unit...

RWallmow
January 27th, 2012, 11:14 AM
That is AWESOME to see one of those in a private collection, I have only ever seen press photos and demos of twiggy macs, but I bet all the apple dev's had them, though I don't know how many twiggy fronts were molded.

I think your only hope of ever booting the thing would be to find a twiggy boot disk from some former apple dev OR maybe connect an external 400k drive, boot from that, then make a twiggy boot disk from there (assuming you can find/make a twiggy disk, I have heard someone has cut twiggy shaped openings into a 1.2m 5.25 floppy and got it to work), this also assumes the SWIM chip on this prototype can handle a 400k drive, which I think it might, I think the Lisa's supported both, and I bet the swims were identical in early macs.

olePigeon
January 27th, 2012, 01:53 PM
Just so happens I found the perfect peripheral for your new machine: http://www.ebay.com/itm/200704337657

Hehe. Prototype Apple HDD with Lisa connector. ;) A little pricy, though, but the coolness factor is off the charts.

Al Kossow
January 27th, 2012, 04:52 PM
Haven't opened the case yet (due to not owning the screwdriver necessary to for a while now), but this appears to be a prototype Macintosh with the original 5 1/4" twiggy drive still intact.

You have a very rare beast there. I only ever saw one inside Apple, which I found in a lab cleanout in 1987.
I donated it to an internal group that was asking for donations to start an internal museum when
the Infinite Loop campus was created.
The donations eventually ended up at the Apple Library, which Jobs dismantled, donating its contents to Stanford.

mactwiggy
January 27th, 2012, 06:42 PM
Here are some more pictures:

http://i.imgur.com/9lMt4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QPWi8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/czvTp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fKBN1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AhiwN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cqSt6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3OV1w.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jH7Ap.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TRFXa.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zQj8M.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1jDAI.jpg

mactwiggy
January 27th, 2012, 06:44 PM
I'm writing an article about it for Tom at AppleFritter. I'll post a link here when it's done.

mactwiggy
January 27th, 2012, 07:00 PM
You have a very rare beast there. I only ever saw one inside Apple, which I found in a lab cleanout in 1987.

Wow, that's really cool to hear!

Since it boots to a normal Mac blinking floppy, it probably works with the 400k Sony drives. It would take a lot of work for me to try and make a boot disk, though. I would have to actually buy an old Mac again that can run an OS old enough to read 800k disks. I'm not sure if it's possible to make a single-sided 400k boot floppy from an 800k floppy either. I haven't seen any blank 400k disks, lol.

platatomi
January 27th, 2012, 07:14 PM
I'm not sure if it's possible to make a single-sided 400k boot floppy from an 800k floppy either. I haven't seen any blank 400k disks, lol.


Yes, you can make single-sided disks in an 800k drive. And you can even use HD PC disks to. Just load System 6 on an old machine, then insert a 1.44MB PC disk. When it complains that the disk is unreadable and asks to format, tell it format single-sided.





Since it boots to a normal Mac blinking floppy, it probably works with the 400k Sony drives.

Thats a very interesting observation. The blinking floppy image is clearly a 3.5" disk, this machine must have been made after Apple decided to go with 3.5" drives but before those drives were available, which is why it has the old 5.25"

AppleIIfan
January 27th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Sent ya a PM, Ill make ya a set of 400k boot disks for ya

Al Kossow
January 27th, 2012, 09:06 PM
Wow, that's really cool to hear!

Since it boots to a normal Mac blinking floppy, it probably works with the 400k Sony drives. It would take a lot of work for me to try and make a boot disk, though. I would have to actually buy an old Mac again that can run an OS old enough to read 800k disks. I'm not sure if it's possible to make a single-sided 400k boot floppy from an 800k floppy either. I haven't seen any blank 400k disks, lol.

If you have any way to do it, please dump the EPROMs.
I need to dig around and find my EPROM piggyback board that is the same as your board has that I made this picture
of Mr. Macintosh from
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/pictures/MrMacintosh.jpg

AppleIIfan
January 27th, 2012, 09:11 PM
Ill throw a rom dump utility on a disk for him when i mail him the boot disks

NeXT
January 27th, 2012, 11:05 PM
Somebody is VERY wealthy.
If you can find twiggy media, try and see if you can still read/format disks and make a bootable Macintosh 128 system disk on a Twiggy floppy for extra bragging points.

Visionary
January 28th, 2012, 12:30 AM
Please be careful around the neck of the CRT. Years ago when I acquired my first two Mac's in the original style cases I accidentally bumped into and broke the necks on one of both.. but those were cheap more common classic style models that came from Goodwill.. but still..
I barely bumped it!

mactwiggy
January 28th, 2012, 06:40 AM
Please be careful around the neck of the CRT. Years ago when I acquired my first two Mac's in the original style cases I accidentally bumped into and broke the necks on one of both.. but those were cheap more common classic style models that came from Goodwill.. but still..
I barely bumped it!

Didn't know they were that sensitive. I've broken a few CRT necks back in the day, but I was being in an idiot handling them when they were disassembled, lol.

Does anyone think it's wise to try and adjust the tilt of the screen, since you have to adjust the yoke to do it? Not sure I want to chance up screwing up a piece of history.

I just found this little tidbit in the service manual:

"Note: Current 400K drives
contain a new stepper motor
that requires the
replacement of the two boot
ROMs on the Macintosh
128K and 512K. The new
ROMs are compatible with
new and old stepper motors."

So, if it's going to work with 400k drives at all, it probably has to be one of the early ones.

mactwiggy
January 28th, 2012, 07:02 AM
Also, might I ask from where you picked it up?

I bought it through an online ad. The elderly gentleman I purchased it off of is a retired engraver. The company he worked for was hired to make some award medallions for a ceremony at Apple. It would have been some point in 1983 I personally think, but he really couldn't recall. They sent over this Mac to use as a model for him to work off of. When the job was done, they tried to make arrangements to send it back. Apparently after several attempts, Apple just told them to keep it.

He knew what he had, and knew the price he was asking was low, but didn't want to deal with trying to market it. He was really just happy it was going to someone who knew what it was and would appreciate it.

33black
January 28th, 2012, 11:36 AM
Jealous is pretty much the only word.

mactwiggy
January 28th, 2012, 03:10 PM
Ill throw a rom dump utility on a disk for him when i mail him the boot disks

Thanks a bunch for the package you're sending me. I'm really excited to see what we can do to get this to boot.

njroadfan
January 28th, 2012, 04:08 PM
I just found this little tidbit in the service manual:

"Note: Current 400K drives
contain a new stepper motor
that requires the
replacement of the two boot
ROMs on the Macintosh
128K and 512K. The new
ROMs are compatible with
new and old stepper motors."

So, if it's going to work with 400k drives at all, it probably has to be one of the early ones.

When I had a Mac 512k, the 400k drives I had didn't work very well. I used the later Apple IIgs 800k 3.5" drives (model# A9M0106) without a problem on them. Wikipedia notes that those drives were designed to be universally compatible with all Apple computers. Its weird that the prototype has the Twiggy still, but the external disk drive port is marked with what looks like the original 400k 3.5" external drive.

Druid6900
January 28th, 2012, 07:30 PM
Does anyone think it's wise to try and adjust the tilt of the screen, since you have to adjust the yoke to do it? Not sure I want to chance up screwing up a piece of history.

On something that obviously unique, if you're not 100% confident that you can do it safely, I'd find someone local that was. 25+ year old glass is not something you want to screw around with unless you've done it many times before.

Alex Harris
January 29th, 2012, 05:49 PM
If you have a source for a 400k external floppy drive, RescueMyClassicMac.com can make 400k System 1.1 Finder 1.1g MacWrite and MacPaint floppies yours for $10, and then all you need is some vintage Twiggy disks to copy the 400k floppy onto.

External 400k floppy drives can be had for $100-$200 on evilBay depending on condition (with the more expensive ones refurbished and tested), but Twiggy floppy disks are so rare I have never seen any online anywhere.

dorkbert
January 31st, 2012, 02:56 PM
are the signatures present in the rear cover?

mactwiggy
January 31st, 2012, 04:24 PM
are the signatures present in the rear cover?

Yes: http://imgur.com/a/0Itdf#0

mactwiggy
January 31st, 2012, 04:36 PM
I've written some more details about it:

I purchased this Macintosh on 1/18/2012 from an elderly gentleman who is a retired engraver. Apple had comissioned the company he worked for to design and produce some medallions, presumably for some sort of internal awards ceremony. He didn't recall the exact time period, but I assume it must have been at some point in 1983. They sent him this unit to use as an art model to work off of. When the job was completed they attempted to make arrangements to return it, but Apple ended up telling them to just keep it. After almost 30 years, he decided to sell it by posting an ad on the internet, and that's how I found it. He said he always knew he had something special, because he'd never seen another Mac with a 5.25" floppy drive in it. He was also aware that it was potentially very valuable, but that he didn't want to fuss with trying to sell it beyond a classified posting. I think he was just glad that it went to someone who could appreciate what a piece of history it is. It was a special moment just to be able to see it in person, nevermind being able to own it. He said that it never had any disks with it.

I went through the trouble of completely disassembling it out of both personal curiousity and desire to document it through pictures. I'm not a photographer, so don't mind my poor skills at taking them too much.

The purchase came with a prototype keyboard, but no mouse. The computer weighs 18lb 3oz in its current state. It has some cosmetic issues, the main one being a scratch on the front bezel. It could use a good cleaning, but I didn't want to mess anything up by doing it.

This unit's serial number seems to be "1031". It's written on both the underside of the screen on the front bezel and on the chassis. It boots up with a standard Mac beep from the 128K, and shows a flashing question mark in a 3.5" floppy disk. Seeing this graphic we can presume that it has the ROM code to use the 400k Sony 3.5" drives, giving some better hope to be able to get this machine to boot in the future. The picture on the CRT is tilted and a bit out of focus, but it should re-calibrate OK. The front bezel is very smooth and shiny, not having the rough textured finish as the back part of the case. The part number embossed inside the bezel is "815 0752REV A". The rear section of the casing does not have the vent holes in the top that production 128k's do. Where you'd find the "Macintosh" name badge on the rear is just the Apple name moulded into the plastic and a rainbow logo to the right of it. The battery cover was not present when I took posession. The torx screws that go in the top handle portion, along with all the rubber feet are also missing. The port icons for "Modem" and "Printer" are reversed compared to production model cases.

Opening up the case, the typical signatures of the Macintosh team are in the inside rear casing. The dark flat finish that's sprayed onto the inside of the front bezel hasn't been applied here. There wasn't any RFI sheild covering the logic board like in a production model. With the ROM riser card, it is a very tight fit trying to slide the board in and out of the chassis. The riser card is labeled "512 EPROM ADAPTER", with "MC1027-01" as the apparent part number. The board seems to expand the two normal ROM slots on the PCB with four. The riser board is secured to the logic board with soldered leads. The ROM's all have "7T" written in faded blueish felt tip marker on the label, along with the following writing on each of the 4 ROMS:

0 HI - H0 B6ED
1 HI - H1 A04A
0 LOW - LO0F332
1 LOW - LO 1 6CBC

The "Mac Man" figure is silkscreened on the logic board, suggesting this version of the PCB supported up to 512K of memory. The total amount of memory currently installed is 128K, on sixteen 64 kilobit MOSTEK/Apple branded chips. The part number on the top of the PCB is "630-0101A", on the bottom it's "820-0086-00", both with 1983 copyright dates. The hand written serial number on the board is "1042". One of the reset/interrupt switches is soldered with one side sticking way too far up, an error that was made at the time the board was assembled. The PAL chips seem to have version numbers written on the stickers on them. The IWM chip appears to be a prototype, with "8248 - xxx-x299 - APPLE 82" stamped on it.

The 5.25" Twiggy drive that's installed connects to the motherboard with the same type of ribbon cable used on the 400K Sony floppy drives. It's enclosed in an anodized aluminum enclosure, with the number "2" written on the rear. It attaches to the drive mechanism using two screws. The enclosure looks like it has been slightly modified with an indentation to accomodate the shaft of the stepper motor. It appears to be a standard Lisa Twiggy drive, but with an extra aluminum cutout on the top front installed. I presume this is to deflect disks from accidentally ending up inside the casing of the Mac. The eject button is present, but is inaccessable with the aluminum encosure in place. The hand written number "1043" is on the bottom PCB. It mounts to the chassis with 4 screws, but one of the screws seems to have sheared off at some point. I'm unable to test the functionality of the drive at the moment without a FileWare disk with a bootable operating system.

The CRT is a Samsung branded one, with the serial number "824400001". Could this possibly make it the very first assembled Mac ever? Hard to tell without being able to reference other date codes, or knowing if production sample CRT's sent by the manufacturer were sequentially numbered.

The analog board doesn't have any plastic safety covering on the solder side of the PCB. The part number is "630-0102" on the top side, and "820-0082-03" on the bottom, both with 1983 copyright dates. There are two hand written numbers on it, what appears to be the serial number "1053" and "3.9". The "Mac Man" logo is also present on this board.

The keyboard's outer casing has the same smooth texture finish as the front panel bezel. The serial number "268" is hand written on a label on the underside. All the rubber bumpers are missing. It attaches to the computer with the normal "telephone" connector used in the production Mac. The "BACKSPACE" key has a broken spring. I'm unsure of the functionality of the keyboard, because I have no means to test it.

I think that about wraps it up. If you have any questions, you can e-mail me at "mactwiggy83@gmail.com".

Se87
April 13th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Well someone got money hungry, I knew it wouldn't be long until eBay saw this one. I just wish you would have kept it or gave it to a musuem, not try and get a few bills off of it, but in this economy do what you have to do.

barythrin
April 13th, 2012, 02:16 PM
Sucks but it happens, of course even at that with a true auction which perhaps it'll turn into at some point after expiring a few times it'd still go for way more than any of us would be happy with ;-) Even on the cctalk list they're comparing the value higher than an Apple I.

k2x4b524[
April 13th, 2012, 02:51 PM
I agree, even though i'm not a mac man myself, i agree that you should have held on to the little bugger, but it is agreeable that in this economy, money is needed. I would have advertised it for sale in the forum first, maybe it was and i wasn't looking, but i'm sure some of us may have wanted a chance to get it.

EvanK
April 13th, 2012, 04:55 PM
He was really just happy it was going to someone who knew what it was and would appreciate it.

Mactwiggy turned out to be a greedy asshole.*

*unless he's giving the ebay profit to the previous owner.

RWallmow
April 13th, 2012, 05:13 PM
Mactwiggy turned out to be a greedy asshole.*

*unless he's giving the ebay profit to the previous owner.I have to agree, I guess he doesn't appreciate it.

DOS lives on!!
April 13th, 2012, 05:26 PM
Money, money, money, and stupidity. First he braggs about it to us, then he sells such a rare piece with a typical knothead sellers price. Then we find his Photobucket account and get some laughs. And now lets see how many times he relists this piece. This has been pretty interesting.

It is a nice Mac, I'd love to just see it in person.

Al Kossow
April 13th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Money, money, money, and stupidity.

It also isn't the oldest prototype Mac

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/pictures/Mac_Proto_Case_%2315.jpg

is in the Computer History Museum collection, and is from the second batch of prototypes built.

DOS lives on!!
April 13th, 2012, 06:10 PM
Now that is a cool looking piece of ingenius work!

dfnr2
April 13th, 2012, 06:21 PM
If anyone has a couple of bucks lying around, here's one on Ebay right now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/160781780426

Chuck(G)
April 13th, 2012, 06:32 PM
If anyone has a couple of bucks lying around, here's one on Ebay right now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/160781780426

That's the selfsame one we're talking about. Start at the beginning of the thread to see how this developed.

k2x4b524[
April 13th, 2012, 08:46 PM
Yea i looked at that, it IS a nice looking mac prototype, he's got that twiggy disk, betcha he's got a Lisa 1 floatin around there too, but 10k?!! Sheesh. He either knows what he's got, if it is even worth that much, or there is a collector willing to PAY that much for it in the first place, and has the software to get it workin. But i agree, he is kind of a greedy douche.

33black
April 13th, 2012, 09:03 PM
10k? Try 100k kid. I know any one of us would love to have and appreciate it.

If someone would just cast me in a solid franchise movie I'd be happy to buy it and let you all come use it. Haha.

Se87
April 13th, 2012, 09:52 PM
Mactwiggy turned out to be a greedy asshole.*

*unless he's giving the ebay profit to the previous owner.

Exactly the way I look at it but I really wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I'm glad someone asked that question for me :). He said he paid way less than what the value was. We can put it this way, it's not like anyone else has a prototype macintosh with prototype keyboard to put on eBay.

Se87
April 13th, 2012, 09:56 PM
It also isn't the oldest prototype Mac

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/pictures/Mac_Proto_Case_%2315.jpg

is in the Computer History Museum collection, and is from the second batch of prototypes built.

I do believe that this is the most "complete" finished version of the twiggy mac as you could say. That other one is very interesting though, the disk drive is identical to my TRS-80 Model 4.

Se87
April 13th, 2012, 09:58 PM
Also to clarify, the user "mactwiggy" that posted here is *NOT* the current seller of it. mactwiggy posted on another forum that he sold it to the current owner/eBay seller.

I found this too on the forums. Great, a wild goose chase. I would be so mad if this ends up broken or destroyed somehow, if the sell pattern continues. But either way, if mactwiggy was a really determined collector he should have just gave it to a musuem or let them use it for display.

NeXT
April 13th, 2012, 10:25 PM
Like said before, the current $100000 seller is a douchebag in Maple Ridge and he has a very bad reputation around my parts as such and because he has a problem with hoarding.
It's a real letdown that the system ended up in his hands. The system really belongs at the Computer History Museum in Mountain view. It's really just too rare and valuable to belong outside of a museum.

Se87
April 14th, 2012, 02:12 PM
Like said before, the current $100000 seller is a douchebag in Maple Ridge and he has a very bad reputation around my parts as such and because he has a problem with hoarding.
It's a real letdown that the system ended up in his hands. The system really belongs at the Computer History Museum in Mountain view. It's really just too rare and valuable to belong outside of a museum.

I didn't know the guy that has it now is a hoarder, his eBay name is "wozniac" I believe. It deserves to be in a musuem. If we can gather up enough money, maybe we all could buy it and give it a home that it should be in. :)

RWallmow
April 14th, 2012, 02:51 PM
I didn't know the guy that has it now is a hoarder, his eBay name is "wozniac" I believe. It deserves to be in a musuem. If we can gather up enough money, maybe we all could buy it and give it a home that it should be in. :)
Not worth it at 100k, I would think even 10k would be hard to round up in donations to get it in a museum. Just not THAT many people in the vintage-computer hobby. Only way I see this guy getting over 10k is if he hits the maybe one or two collectors with that kind of money, or Apple (or the real Woz) themselves buy the thing (FYI, I doubt the real Woz would want it, he was fairly hands-off in apple by the time the Macs were coming about, his bag was the Apple II's, find a uber rare II prototype, and you might spark his interest ;-).

RWallmow
April 14th, 2012, 02:54 PM
Like said before, the current $100000 seller is a douchebag in Maple Ridge and he has a very bad reputation around my parts as such and because he has a problem with hoarding....
Is this the guy who used to trade on ebay as "MapleRidgeAuctions" or something like that? I had some dealings with that guy, seemed like a possible hoarder, but seemed decent enough and friendly, but that may have just been because I was giving him money for a few mac portable parts for one that I was restoring.

njroadfan
April 14th, 2012, 02:56 PM
Yes, thats him and he is still trading under that name it seems. Doesn't ebay only allow one account per person?

RWallmow
April 14th, 2012, 03:08 PM
Yes, thats him and he is still trading under that name it seems. Doesn't ebay only allow one account per person?

Per Person, yes I believe its only one, however legally registered companies I believe can have multiples, so he might not be breaking any rules with multiples if he has a company setup. Plus I doubt epay gives a crap as long as he pays his bill :-/ (which would be substantial on 100k, lol).

NeXT
April 14th, 2012, 07:04 PM
It is.
His prices have always been horrible. As mentioned elsewhere he's really only in it for the money.

MikeS
April 14th, 2012, 07:31 PM
I wonder what the guy who originally sold it cheaply because he thought it was going to someone who'd appreciate it is thinking when he looks at that...

Scumbags...

Lorne
April 14th, 2012, 07:33 PM
Per Person, yes I believe its only one, however legally registered companies I believe can have multiples, so he might not be breaking any rules with multiples if he has a company setup.

Then you would believe incorrectly.
It's more like one per email address - I know some who have three Ebay accounts, each with a different email address/credit card attached to the account.
Not a bad idea when it takes just one moron looking for a no reason refund to screw up your feedback, and there appear to be plenty of those morons out there.

DOS lives on!!
April 15th, 2012, 03:23 AM
I wonder what the guy who originally sold it cheaply because he thought it was going to someone who'd appreciate it is thinking when he looks at that.
I absolutely despise people who get stuff from people so cheaply because the original owner thinks it's going into better hands, then turn around and show their real character by doing something stupid with it. And that's why when I got my complete XT system for 70 dollars, the guy knew he was giving it away for so little money, but he knew that I wasn't going to sell it or do something else foolish with it. And for him trusting me is the exact reason why I see the true value in trust and why I'm not going to sell this XT and use it for it's intended purpose.

Same thing with typewriter-art people, it burns me when they take the round keys off them and use them for some (so called beautiful) artwork. Then just turn around and trash the typewriter.

mactwiggy
April 15th, 2012, 06:12 AM
I helped a lot of people with the money I got from selling it to the current owner. Especially my parents, who are so poor (dad on disability, mom unable to find anything but minimum wage part time work for going on 3 years) they had been going to a food bank in order to help feed themselves until I sent them some of the proceeds for this. I also helped a local couple with travel expenses to take their son to a specialist doctor for treatment. Don't think I'm some rich person, I barely scraped together the $500 I paid for it to buy it. Sorry if some of you have trouble with me making a profit off an old guy who was keenly aware that it was worth much more than he sold it to me for. Someone else can let it collect dust on their shelf for the payout I got.

RWallmow
April 15th, 2012, 06:32 AM
Then you would believe incorrectly.
It's more like one per email address - I know some who have three Ebay accounts, each with a different email address/credit card attached to the account.
Not a bad idea when it takes just one moron looking for a no reason refund to screw up your feedback, and there appear to be plenty of those morons out there.

Yeah, someone had told me that, hadn't researched it myself, but I'll take your word on it.

twolazy
April 16th, 2012, 11:08 PM
I helped a lot of people with the money I got from selling it to the current owner. Especially my parents, who are so poor (dad on disability, mom unable to find anything but minimum wage part time work for going on 3 years) they had been going to a food bank in order to help feed themselves until I sent them some of the proceeds for this. I also helped a local couple with travel expenses to take their son to a specialist doctor for treatment. Don't think I'm some rich person, I barely scraped together the $500 I paid for it to buy it. Sorry if some of you have trouble with me making a profit off an old guy who was keenly aware that it was worth much more than he sold it to me for. Someone else can let it collect dust on their shelf for the payout I got.

I smell something, I know that smell... smells like bull shit. Your last sentence sums up your sentiments. You took advantage of an old man, for a profit. Misguide yourself in thinking you did it to help others some more... And here's a bozo button for your efforts! If you really were such a great person, you give that original owner a cut, which you have not. Speaks volumes about you. Hope you feel great about yourself. Karma will eventually catch up.

olePigeon
April 17th, 2012, 09:41 AM
To be fair, I would have sold it, too. However, before I'd sell it, I'd attend several MUG meetings to let people check it out in person. I'd then put it on loan at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View for a few months.

After that, I would then have put it on Christie's or Sotheby's in a high profile auction, with 10% of the proceeds going to the Computer History Museum. If someone's willing to bid $100k on eBay, you could easily double that (or more) with a good high profile international auction. After the sale, I'd gift $13,000 to the original owner. Not an arbitrary amount, it's the maximum to avoid being taxed and wouldn't muck up his social security. :)

chalackd
April 17th, 2012, 11:02 AM
I'm finding myself quite disgusted with the attitudes around here over this. Yeah, so somebody got something for cheap and sold it for a profit, it happens every day. A lot of you need to stop kidding yourselves that this old guy (original owner) was just some ignorant fool that got completely ripped off, I'm sure he knew that he had something valuable, and I'm sure he knew that the chances of it going on the market were pretty good. He made a choice to sell it as he did, and that's just the risk he chose to take. He could have chose to try and sell it like the current owner is, but perhaps he just didn't care about the hassle, and didn't want to be sitting on it for months/years waiting for a sale. Maybe people should just accept it for what it is, and take relief in the fact that as long as it's in the hands of somebody who values it so high it's not about to go to scrap, it could have just as easily have ended up in an estate from an old guy passing away, and been thrown in the trash by an executor who just thought it was nothing more than another junky old computer.

Honestly, this display is making this place look like it's full of stuck up elitists, where if you aren't just passing your rarities onto other collectors for free, or donating your goodies to museums, you're just some kind of evil prick. God forbid anyone try to make a profit in this capitalist society of ours.

If I would've seen a disappointing display like this before joining up I probably would've just continued on my way and found somewhere not so rude to participate in. (Though I know from hanging around that people here aren't really like this, so I don't know why it's such a problem this time...)

Unknown_K
April 17th, 2012, 11:46 AM
I don't see the problem in reselling items (as long as you didn't say it was intended for a non profit museum when you got it). You will see some bad feelings between long term hobbysists and people who just want to flip something for a quick buck. People change over time and some eventually leave the hobby so their stuff needs to be sold or given away depending on what the owner feels like doing at that time.

Computer collecting hasn't been around long enough to have dedicated museums with endowments where anything rare you send them will more then likely be well kept for the rest of time for others to see.

MikeS
April 17th, 2012, 03:00 PM
I'm finding myself quite disgusted with the attitudes around here over this. Yeah, so somebody got something for cheap and sold it for a profit, it happens every day. A lot of you need to stop kidding yourselves that this old guy (original owner) was just some ignorant fool that got completely ripped off, I'm sure he knew that he had something valuable...As a matter of fact he did apparently indeed know that it was valuable, and one of the reasons he sold it relatively cheaply was that he believed that the buyer was a collector who would "appreciate it" when in fact it was the buyer's intention all along to turn it around and make a (presumably substantial) fast buck. Some of us find that kind of deception disgusting and try to avoid dealing with people like you and the buyer(s) in question who don't see anything ethically wrong with it.

Many people in this hobby give things away or invest their time freely to help or benefit fellow collectors/hobbyists knowing full well that they could make (more) money with it; of course they know that the recipient can do what they want with it but unlike you some people don't think it's right to just turn it around and sell it for a profit (ask Hargle ;-) )

You see the same thing in the Freecycle movement (or even in sending relief supplies overseas); people offer things for free in the hope that it will go to someone who will appreciate it as they did or benefit someone in need, but as they see more and more of their well-intentioned gifts just making someone rich instead they tend to become more cynical, to everyone's loss.

But like the Steve Landon/AppleIIfan discussions, it' s interesting what it tells us about the ethics of some of the people commenting...


If I would've seen a disappointing display like this before joining up I probably would've just continued on my way and found somewhere not so rude to participate in. Interesting that you would have judged this entire forum and its members on this one thread alone...

FWIW I have no problem with people selling things for whatever they think it's worth and as some regulars will know I've in fact often ranted in their defence, so to speak, but that's not the issue here.

DOS lives on!!
April 17th, 2012, 03:10 PM
If I would've seen a disappointing display like this before joining up I probably would've just continued on my way and found somewhere not so rude to participate in. (Though I know from hanging around that people here aren't really like this, so I don't know why it's such a problem this time...)
That first sentence completely cancels out the last sentence. Telling us that we're rude and chastise people like this, then say that we aren't like that. (As the old saying goes, don't judge a book but it's cover.) And you just did that big time.

Se87
April 17th, 2012, 03:10 PM
Guys I just saw on eBay it had one bid. I agree that he should have sold it, but not unless the seller knew first, then try and make us feel bad about his pity story which may be true, but if he would have sold it himself he could have got the 99,995. Seems to smell bad. Really bad.

twolazy
April 17th, 2012, 03:14 PM
Normally i have not said a peep. A few dollars made is to be expected sometimes. But to make tens of THOUSANDS off an elder deceptively. There is a word for that. Its called a predator. And that's why I have beef. I am extremely tempted to post this whole situation on slashdot, and see what 100,000's of nerds have to say (and do) about this subject.

Jimmy
April 17th, 2012, 03:27 PM
Would be funny if Apple got wind of it and asked for it back. From what I have read, they did not sell it to the old guy (love old guy, I am 62 myself), just kind of left it there and somehow forgot about it. I am not sure what the law would be in this case, but I do not think title was ever transferred. Apple could break you, just in attorney fees and court cost.

mactwiggy
April 17th, 2012, 04:34 PM
This is the last time I'm going to say anything about how this was acquired. I'm going to paraphrase the gentleman I bought it from:

"Yes I know it's worth a lot more. Heck, you can probably resell it and make a lot of money on it."

You can choose to believe me or not.

chalackd
April 17th, 2012, 04:55 PM
Honestly, who are we all to speak to the original buyers' intentions, he did seem genuinely interested in the machine to begin with. I think it's possibly a little unfair to state that just because he ended up selling, that had to be his only intent from the start. Are people not allowed to change their opinion on things over time? What's to say that he didn't just get an offer from the next guy that he would have to be crazy to refuse? I love my Apple IIgs setup profusely, and have no intentions of getting rid of it, ever. But if somebody showed up tomorrow offering me some obscene amount of money for it I would probably have to take the money and run, so to speak. In that case I could easily build another similar setup that suited my needs, and it would take the heat off in other aspects of my life at the same time.

The comment above about "people like [me] and the seller in question that don't see anything ethically wrong with it" is frankly a little uncalled for as well. I never actually defended the ethics of the seller, if that was your interpretation of my comments I apologize for the misunderstanding. If you honestly feel the need to slander my ethics though, go right ahead, whatever makes you feel better...

That aside, the seller in question is not even the person who bought it from the original owner, as has already been pointed out here. So is there an ethical issue with offering a party a substantial amount of money to sell you an item that they had bought with potentially genuine interest? Or is there an ethical issue for giving in to an exorbitant offer and selling something that you did want to keep? None of us here even know what the original purchaser sold it for, if he bought it for his stated $500 and sold it for $1000 or even $5000, that would not qualify him for the accusations of being a predator who is making "tens of thousands of dollars off an elder deceptively", but would you consider this as still being morally bankrupt?

There has been a few comments from other users here that they too would sell a similar item, but would have first displayed it, or would donate a percentile of the profits to a museum or similar. Does this small act of charity negate your purported ethical issues?

As far as my comment about rudeness, and potentially not wanting to join such a community, I suppose that came across not quite as I intended. I meant more along the lines of even though I know this to be a good community through my experiences so far, some of the comments and attitudes displayed here are disappointing, and really don't look like the image of the helpful bunch I know to be here otherwise.

Erik
April 17th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Honestly, who are we all to speak to the original buyers' intentions

[...]

I know this to be a good community through my experiences so far, some of the comments and attitudes displayed here are disappointing, and really don't look like the image of the helpful bunch I know to be here otherwise.

That about sums it up. Some of those commenting on mactwiggy's decision to sell are being downright obnoxious. It's fortunate that most of the community isn't that way and is genuinely helpful most of the time. It is disappointing that entries like these crop up from time to time.

olePigeon
April 17th, 2012, 07:48 PM
Would be funny if Apple got wind of it and asked for it back. From what I have read, they did not sell it to the old guy (love old guy, I am 62 myself), just kind of left it there and somehow forgot about it. I am not sure what the law would be in this case, but I do not think title was ever transferred. Apple could break you, just in attorney fees and court cost.

Not likely. There's a 20 year statute of limitation on unclaimed valuables.

MikeS
April 17th, 2012, 08:48 PM
The comment above about "people like [me] and the seller in question that don't see anything ethically wrong with it" is frankly a little uncalled for as well. I never actually defended the ethics of the seller, if that was your interpretation of my comments I apologize for the misunderstanding. If you honestly feel the need to slander my ethics though, go right ahead, whatever makes you feel better...I have no problem with the current seller trying to get $100,000 for it, even if he only paid $1000. I also have no generic problem with the previous buyer buying it for $500, cleaning it up and selling it for whatever he can get.

What some of us have a problem with is "he was happy that it was going to someone who knew what it was and who would appreciate it" and then immediately cleaning it up and reselling it for a substantial profit and without sharing any part of that profit with the original owner by the sounds of it. Granted, we assume that he meant "appreciate it" for what it is, and not for its profit potential, and we are making a judgement based on limited information and perhaps coloured by our own experiences when we thought we were giving someone a special deal or a gift because we thought it would be appreciated only to see it immediately turned around and sold for profit.

You find our attitude "disgusting" and rude and were in fact ready to judge the entire forum and its members on the basis of those four or five comments; no problem, we've all said our piece and we can agree that some of us see things differently from some others. No hard feelings, apologies for disgusting you.

'Nuff said.

Anonymous Freak
April 18th, 2012, 09:26 AM
That about sums it up. Some of those commenting on mactwiggy's decision to sell are being downright obnoxious. It's fortunate that most of the community isn't that way and is genuinely helpful most of the time. It is disappointing that entries like these crop up from time to time.

Exactly. I've acquired rare vintage computer parts for free (or near-free) with the full intention of keeping them, and even using them. Later, I ran into financial difficulties, and a lack of time. It pained me to sell them, but I did. Sometimes life gets in the way of hobbies - especially when there is a lot of financial value to the hobby.

barythrin
April 18th, 2012, 09:43 AM
But I bet you sold it to other collectors and the community which I think even the original owner would be happy that it still gets used and desired. That's a happy ending for the equipment. Buying a huge lot or acquiring a huge lot of equipment from someone who desires it to get used and then pilfering through it later and trashing it I would say will probably end in some bad karma. I'm wondering out of curiosity, perhaps this is more of a publicity stunt than an actual intent to sell? Obviously attention has been gained from this, probably some news sources and then your collector could get shown off. I *have* actually seen publicity stunts before via ebay from some museums (nothing with mal-intent, if someone bid it'd be sold) but mostly to show off a device and get some attention with a high price and rare item.