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platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 01:16 PM
Today I received a new hard to replace the failed one in my IIfx. Its 700MB, Quantum OEM, identical to the original except for capacity. I installed it as usual but cannot get Apple HD SC Setup to find it. It just says "There is no suitable hard drive connected to the SCSI port" or something. What am I doing wrong?

I know i don't need an internal terminator because the 50pin cable only has two connectors - one on the motherboard and one on the drive, so there's no place to put a terminator. The drive sounds healthy and I do hear seek activity when the machine is booting, it just needs to be partitioned.

33black
February 1st, 2012, 01:30 PM
I had this same problem with a Classic. It may be the ROM on the drive got screwed up and is not communicating as an Apple drive, it could be that the motherboard is not terminating properly, it could be the SCSI cable, it could be the jumper setting as well.

I'd check the jumper settings, then the cable, then swap a different drive or two in, just borrow another working drive and see if it recognizes.

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 01:43 PM
I actually don't have another positively working drive to try. What I can try is putting this drive in an SE and see if it finds it. The drive was supposed tested and guaranteed to work so i'd be surprised if the drive was at fault.

dorkbert
February 1st, 2012, 01:49 PM
check and make sure the drive as onboard termination. got a model number?

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 02:09 PM
Its a Quantum ProDrive LT, not sure which of the these may be the model: LS3, SLT4 1E30, 730S. There are a lot of numbers on this thing.

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 02:21 PM
I'm getting the same thing on the SE - no recognition of the drive.

dorkbert
February 1st, 2012, 02:23 PM
there should be two resistor packs behind the 50 pin connector for termination. if they're not there, you need termination.

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 02:28 PM
there should be two resistor packs behind the 50 pin connector for termination. if they're not there, you need termination.

They aren't there. How would I add them? Can I take them off the failed drive and transplant them on here (considering the drives are identical except for capacity)

dorkbert
February 1st, 2012, 02:37 PM
you can certainly do that, if you are sure the drive electronics are identical, or you will need a discrete terminator. IIfx appears to have some pretty odd requirements, according to the technotes (https://support.apple.com/kb/TA42169). I assume you have tested other drive on your SE?

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 02:44 PM
I have, its shot mechanically but the electronics should be good.

Moved the resistor packs to the new drive, and installed it. Now the IIfx hangs on a grey screen and won't boot further.

dorkbert
February 1st, 2012, 02:53 PM
Ok, this is getting ugly; do you still have the Internal SCSI Filter (Apple Service Part #590-4516)? The technotes indicates that it needs to go between the cable and the drive...

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 03:01 PM
Tried a different cable, now Apple HD SC finds the drive but fails to initialize it. "Unable ti initialize disk". Same message on the SE.

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 03:01 PM
Ok, this is getting ugly; do you still have the Internal SCSI Filter (Apple Service Part #590-4516)? The technotes indicates that it needs to go between the cable and the drive...

No, never had one.

platatomi
February 1st, 2012, 03:28 PM
The drive behaves the same on the SE and IIfx, on both it fails to initialize and fails the "Test" in Apple HD SC. Definitely looks defective, going to exchange it.

At least the terminator thing is straitened out!

mactwiggy
February 1st, 2012, 03:44 PM
Ok, this is getting ugly; do you still have the Internal SCSI Filter (Apple Service Part #590-4516)? The technotes indicates that it needs to go between the cable and the drive...

Wouldn't work without one on My IIfx.

k2x4b524[
February 2nd, 2012, 07:42 AM
the drive could be bad, i recently picked up a lot of scsi drives from macintoshes, about 10 700mb, 2 160mb, some 40mbs and a 20mb. ALL the 700s were quantums and ALL were bad. the 40mb and 20mb were miniscribes and still chug along. and the 160mbs are conner drivers and zip along. also got 2 apple marked 213mb ibm oems for macs.

33black
February 2nd, 2012, 09:36 AM
i also forgot to mention the resistor packs on the drive.

glad you got it figured out! this drove me nuts for about a month.

dorkbert
February 2nd, 2012, 09:59 AM
the drive could be bad, i recently picked up a lot of scsi drives from macintoshes, about 10 700mb, 2 160mb, some 40mbs and a 20mb. ALL the 700s were quantums and ALL were bad. the 40mb and 20mb were miniscribes and still chug along. and the 160mbs are conner drivers and zip along. also got 2 apple marked 213mb ibm oems for macs.

That is rather disturbing... product of a company know to ship masonry bricks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniscribe) outlasting product by Quantum... :D

platatomi
February 2nd, 2012, 12:00 PM
Got the replacement ordered, just hope it works.

platatomi
February 2nd, 2012, 12:09 PM
i also forgot to mention the resistor packs on the drive.

glad you got it figured out! this drove me nuts for about a month.



Yeah those terminators aren't fun to deal with. I just don't have an eye for them, and assumed the drive came with them (why not?) but for some reason they had been removed. Lucky I had a set from the first broken drive.

dorkbert
February 2nd, 2012, 12:17 PM
Here's Apple's service manual (http://www.macheaven.net/MH_Manuals/macintosh_ii.pdf) for the IIfx if you don't already have it; it's a bit thin but not unexpected.

Termination in later drives (90's and later) were all integrated onto the drive (for practical and technical reasons) Most newer drives has one jumper to enable termination and one jumper to enable term-power... I wish you luck, and you might want to start looking for that SCSI filter block Apple so fond of mentioning in their IIfx related documents...

platatomi
February 2nd, 2012, 12:32 PM
Now I understand all this terminator business - the SCSI filter block is only needed with Apple and non-Appl drives that shipped before March 19, 1990. The SCSI filter isn't needed with Apple drives made after that date. The drive I'm trying to install is dated 1994 so this of course isn't necessary. Thank you for the link.


Apple Service Manual (http://www.macheaven.net/MH_Manuals/macintosh_ii.pdf) -

"Internal Hard Drives
The internal SCSI filter provides proper termination capacitance for third-party drives and Apple internal hard drives that shipped before March 19, 1990. Connect the SCSI filter between the hard drive data cable and the connector on the hard drive."

dorkbert
February 2nd, 2012, 12:35 PM
"Internal Hard Drives
The internal SCSI filter provides proper termination capacitance for third-party drives and Apple internal hard drives that shipped before March 19, 1990. Connect the SCSI filter between the hard drive data cable and the connector on the hard drive."

Heh, actually I read that some what differently; I've interpreted it as saying that drives shipped with IIfx after the said date does not require the SCSI filter block. Unless the drives you're trying to install came out of another IIfx shipped after that date, you still need that filter block. That said, I think we'll all find out soon from your experience... :D

platatomi
February 2nd, 2012, 12:36 PM
And I do have a criticism of this manual - it says the IIfx is expandable to 8MB of memory. Thats just not true, I have 32MB in mine, its expandable to 128MB.



"RAM
Macintosh II/IIx Macintosh IIfx
ROM
Macintosh II/IIx
Macintosh IIfx
Memory
1 MB, expandable to 8 MB
4 MB standard, expandable to 8 MB
256K 512K"

platatomi
February 2nd, 2012, 12:46 PM
Heh, actually I read that some what differently; I've interpreted it as saying that drives shipped with IIfx after the said date does not require the SCSI filter block. Unless the drives you're trying to install came out of another IIfx shipped after that date, you still need that filter block. That said, I think we'll all find out soon from your experience... :D



I see what you mean. I know the drive i'm trying to install didn't ship with a IIfx because it was made several years after the IIfx was discontinued.

However, it looks like its working just fine. I can see the drive at SCSI ID 0 and can begin initializing it. If it wasn't terminated properly, I don't think it would get this far. On top of that, I get the exact same behavior on the SE, which doesn't need that weird SCSI filter thing. Now I think the only problem is a defective media or bad heads, because it the init fails with read/write errors.

dorkbert
February 3rd, 2012, 09:01 AM
congrads, finally a working IIfx (?)

platatomi
February 4th, 2012, 12:46 PM
Just received the replacement 700MB drive, it works like a charm! Booting 6.0.8 in the IIfx, no SCSI filter thing needed.

k2x4b524[
February 4th, 2012, 11:21 PM
Glad that worked out for you, and as for the miniscribe drives lasting, they are very well mechanically sound drives, the circuit board runs a little hot but hey, that's something that can be lived with. The early quantum drives just dont seem to last long at all, but the bigfoots last forever. Out of curiousity, is the 700mb replacement a quantum? If not i got a full height 700mb scsi that should work, it can move small cars with the torque it puts out :D

platatomi
February 7th, 2012, 10:34 PM
Yes it is also a Quantum, the same model as the first. So far I haven't had any trouble with it, hoping it stays that way.

Also thought i'd mention, I did get the first 700MB to work a little - I can use about 400MB of it. I know its prone to total failure at any moment, but might as well set up an SE with a HD while I can. Here's the process I went through to get some functionality out of it:

Initializing under system 6/7 fails, cannot partition or do anything.

In under OS 8.6, Drive Setup allows me to initialize and partition without a full blown format. It just so happens that the corrupted spots on the drive don't affect the partition tables or filesystem. It was only after this quick (and blind) init that I could work with the partitions under Apple HD SC Setup on the IIfx.

Now I have the whole 700MB in one partition, but System 6/7 hangs when booted from this single partition. (because of corrupted data)

So, I zeroed in on the bad places by creating on very small partition (8MB) at the start of the disk, the trying to move it down 8MB. When the move failed due to read/write errors, I know that both the test partitions original place and/or the possible location after moving are damaged.

I continued with this move by 8MB routine until I had a pretty good idea of where the good spots are on the disk. So I ended up with the last 400MB usable, producing no errors when moving a partition to/from this area.

I currently have OS 7.5.5 booting from this drive, no problem.

k2x4b524[
February 9th, 2012, 03:33 PM
why not just take him out of the apple, hook a scsi card to a pc, wipe the apple partition, run spinrite on the emprt drive, then try to get the 700mb you need? Alot of scsi controllers can low level the drives hooked to them aswell, i'd do that, then spinrite @ level 5, then put it in the apple again

dorkbert
February 9th, 2012, 03:38 PM
SCSI specification requires support for the format unit command, but there is no requirement that drive firmware actually does anything with the command. Some of the low end ("desktop class") SCSI drives would happily accept the command and immediately returns "successful" status. Personally, no amount of cost saving is worth risking data...

Chuck(G)
February 9th, 2012, 03:53 PM
SCSI specification requires support for the format unit command, but there is no requirement that drive firmware actually does anything with the command. Some of the low end ("desktop class") SCSI drives would happily accept the command and immediately returns "successful" status. Personally, no amount of cost saving is worth risking data...

Some hard drives, because of the technology used (e.g. embedded servo) are not capable of formatting themselves.

platatomi
February 10th, 2012, 11:01 PM
why not just take him out of the apple, hook a scsi card to a pc, wipe the apple partition, run spinrite on the emprt drive, then try to get the 700mb you need? Alot of scsi controllers can low level the drives hooked to them aswell, i'd do that, then spinrite @ level 5, then put it in the apple again

Hadn't thought about that, nor had I heard of spinrite, but it looks like an excellent program from what ive read. I will give that a try!

platatomi
February 11th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Used spinrite set to level 4, it didn't appear to fix anything. All the bad clusters that were known initially remained after the process.

k2x4b524[
February 11th, 2012, 10:21 PM
when i the pc, what card did you have it hooked to? were you able to do a llf through the card? Spinrite level 4 just marks bad and if it can recovers data, level 5 is the one that tests the heck out of each cluster, i'd also check to see if there are any ond utilities that would work too, maybe something quantum put out. I haven't have very many problems with scsi, cept the quantums that were sacrificed.

platatomi
February 15th, 2012, 09:34 AM
I used an Adaptec 2940 in the PC. This card presented no BIOS to do a format through but I have another similar adapter card that did let me format. I ended up using the 2940 because the other won't assign the drive a letter at boot so spinrite couldn't see it the drive.

In spinrite I didn't see an option for level 5, but I will look again.

dorkbert
February 15th, 2012, 10:03 AM
Interesting. The antique 1542C I have had option to format. Could've sworn 2940 would have it too...

Chuck(G)
February 15th, 2012, 10:12 AM
It does. It's a menu choice on the SCSISelect (ctrl-A) list of utilities. RTFM here (http://download.adaptec.com/pdfs/installation_guides/aha2940_ig.pdf), page 9.

platatomi
February 15th, 2012, 06:06 PM
For some reason I don't get the "Press <Ctrl><A> for SCSISelect (TM) Utility!" prompt on boot from this card, I will try Ctrl+A anyway and see if that gets me into the utilities.

Chuck(G)
February 15th, 2012, 06:26 PM
I assume that you have the 2940 BIOS enabled?

platatomi
February 16th, 2012, 02:27 PM
in Spinrite again, level 5 is not an option. Only levels 2 and 4 are available. Why is that?