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Se87
February 24th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Hello all!

I am so glad to have found you, there are no computer collector(s) in my area whatsoever that I know of! I personally hate replicas of things, but when the item is too expensive (In the thousands) I would build the closest thing. I have always liked the Lisa since I first layed eyes on one. I like the Lisa 1 because it is much more interesting than the Lisa 2 but it is in orbit compared to my spending money. The reason I want to build a replica is:

Too expensive.
Apple Dealer

What Apple dealer means is that in my area there is a place that worked on all the Apple computers way back when they started in 1980. I figured bringing in a Lisa 1 would make them remember the earlier days. There are a few questions I have about building one though:

How did Apple create the casing? Just some plastic molds would do? I could carve out all the panels in styrofoam then make a mold and etc?
How could I achieve the rough texture apple cases are made of? I heard (May be a rumor) that the original Apple ][ cases were messed up and they went over them with sandpaper to fix them.
(Finally) Is any Lisa owner generous enough to post pictures of the metal frame under the plastic?


That just about sums it up. I could get any problem from there and if I couldn't I would pst it on here. I am looking forward to see the look on their faces when I walk in there with it. I may use some of my junk to make a LCD for the screen so you could say it "works".

Thanks to all and please share your ideas!

Useful Information
Apple Lisa 1 Case Patent ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/applelisa/AppleLisa-PatentCaseDesign.pdf

Lorne
February 24th, 2012, 02:58 PM
Forgot your location?

Oops - I forgot to vote.

barythrin
February 24th, 2012, 03:25 PM
Not sure how difficult a replica would be. Also depends how true you'd like it to be, that determines cost. I could honestly imagine the cost being pretty close to the current price (well ok of a Lisa 2). Do you have much experience with engineering/the foundation of a computer from scratch?

Drea
February 24th, 2012, 03:53 PM
I voted no. Creating the plastic and metal parts will be very hard to do without access to a factory, and even then, very expensive.

Chuck(G)
February 24th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Where are you going to get the "twiggy" drives and media? If it's not a "twiggy", it's not a Lisa 1.

Se87
February 24th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Not sure how difficult a replica would be. Also depends how true you'd like it to be, that determines cost. I could honestly imagine the cost being pretty close to the current price (well ok of a Lisa 2). Do you have much experience with engineering/the foundation of a computer from scratch?

Sorry for late replies, I was working on my Mac Classic II (Horizontal lines). I really wanted it to just be a show replica. I could make the insides, I guess there would be schematics somewhere. I have probably medium experience, most things I get are in need of repair. This was sort of going to be a learning project.

Se87
February 24th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Hard? That makes me want to do it even more :D. But it couldn't be that hard, making some styrofoam cuts of the panels, which is four I believe, and making molds then making the actual plastic sides. I might want to build more sometime.

Se87
February 24th, 2012, 06:17 PM
I think I could acquire some older TRS-80 drives or something, but as I mentioned I wanted it just to be a show machine. I have some assorted parts gathered up and I think I have enough for a nice emulator to run on.

Se87
February 24th, 2012, 06:21 PM
As you all might want to know vintage computers sort of hate me. I have had a floppy drive get stuck in a Macintosh SE (And it still is) a Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 start smoking, and yet finally a CBM 2001 garbage screen that worked when I got it. Tough luck, aye?

barythrin
February 24th, 2012, 06:34 PM
heh, they just have their bad days that's all. Great practice though :-) Feel free to let us know more if you choose to troubleshoot them. I dunno about the clone, I certainly don't know enough to do it but would imagine creating all the parts would end up pretty odd and not a true clone/replica without some serious cost. I'm sure you could start by writing an emulator though and then maybe just emulate the hardware and create a similar case mold. Grant Stockley (http://www.altairkit.com/) has done some pretty serious replicas as far as the Altair. Circuit wise and physically it's compatible with the current parts which is damn impressive but I know it cost a lot for even that, not really sure of the raw costs but the end result was still around a thousandish for the replicas. Given there's the Replica-1 and MicroKim which are impressive and cheaper kits for the reason of educating folks (awesome too btw) but the cost is cheaper because of the simpler design of the computers. When you start doing multiple cards, monitors, case, etc the price and work potentially would break the bank. There are lots of smart folks here though who might have some better suggestions.

Anyone of you homebrew folks want to chime in on the difficulty of building a potential Apple (Lisa) replica?

Se87
February 24th, 2012, 07:32 PM
heh, they just have their bad days that's all. Great practice though :-) Feel free to let us know more if you choose to troubleshoot them. I dunno about the clone, I certainly don't know enough to do it but would imagine creating all the parts would end up pretty odd and not a true clone/replica without some serious cost. I'm sure you could start by writing an emulator though and then maybe just emulate the hardware and create a similar case mold. Grant Stockley (http://www.altairkit.com/) has done some pretty serious replicas as far as the Altair. Circuit wise and physically it's compatible with the current parts which is damn impressive but I know it cost a lot for even that, not really sure of the raw costs but the end result was still around a thousandish for the replicas. Given there's the Replica-1 and MicroKim which are impressive and cheaper kits for the reason of educating folks (awesome too btw) but the cost is cheaper because of the simpler design of the computers. When you start doing multiple cards, monitors, case, etc the price and work potentially would break the bank. There are lots of smart folks here though who might have some better suggestions.

Anyone of you homebrew folks want to chime in on the difficulty of building a potential Apple (Lisa) replica?

I actually would like to troubleshoot them. Also do you guys know where to get old computers other than online? I can not find ANY in my state. Best luck I've had is the TRS-80. About the Tandy anyway I think what blew was a capacitor. No fire but it smoked up a storm. I'm pretty sure it was a capacitor, and it was my best deal :evil:. I payed $175 for it and it had just about everything but the original boxes.

Se87
February 24th, 2012, 07:37 PM
And guys I have to say I am impressed by this forum. Most others I've been on are run by immature children and rude welcomings, you all are ready and helpful on my topic, congratulations.

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 04:16 AM
Okay. There's a place in my area that has a Lisa 2 and I think it would be fun to get it running. I would also have a basic model for the Lisa 1 :).

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 04:48 AM
Update:

I have a few reference photos and dimensions now. Also do you guys know of anyway to get an LCD to look like a CRT? It's just not the same when it comes to replicas, could a rounded bit of plexiglass manage to cover the LCD?

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 04:51 AM
Helpful information:

RetroHacker_
February 25th, 2012, 04:53 AM
Your best bet would be to make a replica faceplate, and stick it onto a Lisa 2. And even then, it would be cosmetic only, because you'd never find the special "Twiggy" drives to mount behind it. The only cosmetic difference between a 1 and a 2 is the faceplate, and many LIsa 2's used to be Lisa 1's and were upgraded for free by Apple because of the flaky Twiggy floppy drives. Hence why the Lisa 1 is so rare.

Making a replica of this machine is going to be nearly impossible. Especially impossible without an original to work from. Now, you *might* be able to pull off making replica faceplates, but bear in mind it's going to be very, very expensive. Molds are not cheap to make. And you're going to need an original faceplate to work from. There was one on eBay forever with a super high BIN, I don't know if it's still there or not, probably.

I admire you desire to make something like this, but it's going to be a massive, massive undertaking unless you already work in the plastics industry.

-Ian

RetroHacker_
February 25th, 2012, 04:56 AM
Update:

I have a few reference photos and dimensions now. Also do you guys know of anyway to get an LCD to look like a CRT? It's just not the same when it comes to replicas, could a rounded bit of plexiglass manage to cover the LCD?

Why not just use a CRT? You'll never get the right look with the LCD. Especially since the pixels on a Lisa are rectangular, not square.

-Ian

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 05:03 AM
Because I am iffy about CRTs and the "potential" shock that they could give. I mean I have to die sometime but I would rather finish this project first ;).

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 05:05 AM
That's more than likely what I'll do. I still don't know if the guy will sell me the Lisa 2, but I want one of the two because of the old Apple dealer. They had A LOT of unopened stock (Like Mac 128k) but some guy ended up with it all.

lucasdaytona
February 25th, 2012, 06:00 AM
Because I am iffy about CRTs and the "potential" shock that they could give. I mean I have to die sometime but I would rather finish this project first ;).

Man, don't be afraid of working with CRTs, take a look here (http://www.crtsolutions.com/CRTSafety.pdf) . Good luck!

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 07:51 AM
Man, don't be afraid of working with CRTs, take a look here (http://www.crtsolutions.com/CRTSafety.pdf) . Good luck!

Okay, but would glasses count as jewelry?

Chuck(G)
February 25th, 2012, 08:15 AM
My problem with this is that you're basically going to duplicate the case. I assume that what will be inside will be some sort of Micro-ATX/Mini ITX board, complete with power supply and LCD monitor. Interfaces, keyboard, etc won't be the same, even the image won't look the same--and it won't take the correct floppies.

So the only thing that will look like the Lisa in some authentic way is the case, right? You might as well carve one out of styrofoam and paint it and go do your real Lisa emulation on a PC.

Don't get me wrong--it's an ambitious and worthy project. But if you want to have any accuracy at all, it's going to be very expensive--for an emulator.

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 08:33 AM
I really think everyone was taking this the wrong way. I was just going to make the case, keyboard, and mouse. I said I might be able to fit an emulator in it but I doubt it. As far as the keyboard goes I was going to pick one up at the state surplus, get the keys I need, give them a good repaint, and put them on a replica keyboard case. I was expecting this to be under 100 to 150 but it is starting to look like a big no.

Chuck(G)
February 25th, 2012, 08:53 AM
I really think everyone was taking this the wrong way. I was just going to make the case, keyboard, and mouse. I said I might be able to fit an emulator in it but I doubt it. As far as the keyboard goes I was going to pick one up at the state surplus, get the keys I need, give them a good repaint, and put them on a replica keyboard case. I was expecting this to be under 100 to 150 but it is starting to look like a big no.

Building a one-off case is probably quite doable (lay up fiberglass cloth on a form) on a budget. Manufacturing them requires forms tooling and that gets expensive. I suppose you could also do a case with stereolith/3d printing as well.

Many production cases of the time were made using high-density polyurethane foam. It's strong, but heavy, and has a natural light brown-yellow color (sort of like a root beer float), so it's always painted. It's very forgiving--I once saw a guy staple an inventory tag to one such case with no ill effects (other than the small staple holes).

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 09:03 AM
Building a one-off case is probably quite doable (lay up fiberglass cloth on a form) on a budget. Manufacturing them requires forms tooling and that gets expensive. I suppose you could also do a case with stereolith/3d printing as well.

Many production cases of the time were made using high-density polyurethane foam. It's strong, but heavy, and has a natural light brown-yellow color (sort of like a root beer float), so it's always painted. It's very forgiving--I once saw a guy staple an inventory tag to one such case with no ill effects (other than the small staple holes).

That sounds like just what I need... Any ideas on where to get it and the cost (to make the entire body)?

Chuck(G)
February 25th, 2012, 09:13 AM
Well, there are regular model shops that you can request a quote from:

http://www.modelsplusinc.com/index.php

NeXT
February 25th, 2012, 09:14 AM
The idea of making a Lisa Replica makes absolutely no sense.
I admire your ambition for this project, but this is not going to work out the way you see it in your head unless you have at least a grand floating around and at that point, you are better off just buying a real Lisa.

Se87
February 25th, 2012, 10:09 AM
The idea of making a Lisa Replica makes absolutely no sense.
I admire your ambition for this project, but this is not going to work out the way you see it in your head unless you have at least a grand floating around and at that point, you are better off just buying a real Lisa.

The point of this was just be to be a replica case, everyone has got this wrong. I think this project will be on hold for a while, I think I have to rescue about eight or so vintage Apple compact macs. Would 250 be a good deal? I think almost all of them work.

Se87
February 26th, 2012, 07:36 AM
No ideas? I guess it's a bad deal. :C

NeXT
February 26th, 2012, 06:34 PM
It depends on the compact macs. 250 for eight Mac classics is a poor buy but 250 for a mix of Mac Plus, SE, SE/30, or Classic II systems would be better.

EvanK
February 26th, 2012, 06:53 PM
where to get old computers other than online? I can not find ANY in my state.

You still haven't said where state is yours ....

EvanK
February 26th, 2012, 06:57 PM
The point of this was just be to be a replica case, everyone has got this wrong.

"Everyone" did not get it wrong. Your subject line and first message gave us the impression that you wanted to build a full replica.

If you just want to make a replica case, then that is fairly simple. Find someone who does have a Lisa 1, have them take precision photos and measurements, and then hire a fabrication company to make the outer shells. Put modern computer parts inside. Done. It would probably cost you a few hundred dollars for the case fabrication.

NobodyIsHere
February 27th, 2012, 12:48 PM
Hi
I've been following this thread and am just not seeing the point. What good is a replica Lisa 1 case without the electronics to go with it? It seems to me if you wanted to build a replica Lisa 1 you'd start with the main board first and then consider the case issues. A Lisa 1 case with a mini-ATX inside is just a funny looking PC clone or am I missing something?

Thanks!

Andrew Lynch

Se87
February 27th, 2012, 02:43 PM
"Everyone" did not get it wrong. Your subject line and first message gave us the impression that you wanted to build a full replica.

If you just want to make a replica case, then that is fairly simple. Find someone who does have a Lisa 1, have them take precision photos and measurements, and then hire a fabrication company to make the outer shells. Put modern computer parts inside. Done. It would probably cost you a few hundred dollars for the case fabrication.

If everyone didn't have it all wrong you wouldn't have typed that message. I however did not imply in any way whatsoever that it would have the insides. And if you would have read the post instead of being utterly rude and accusing me of not saying all of the information you would have saw this: "I really think everyone was taking this the wrong way. I was just going to make the case, keyboard, and mouse."

Ahem. That sums it up quite nicely, thank you.

Se87
February 27th, 2012, 02:46 PM
No. As previously mentioned I was just going to make a case. I said I might be able to fit some junk parts in it to run a simple emulator but no, this was going to be primarially for display. There was a museum in my area that had a Lisa 2 and they don't use any of their machines for demonstation purposes. I figured a replica Lisa 1 would be better than a Lisa 2.

Se87
February 27th, 2012, 02:48 PM
You still haven't said where state is yours ....

The internet is a SCARY place....

EvanK
February 27th, 2012, 03:45 PM
The internet is a SCARY place....

Dude. How do you expect us to tell you where to find vintage computers, if you won't say where "here" is? Maybe we happen to know of several other collectors in your state. But we can't TELL you that without knowing which state is yours. See?

Trust me, nobody here is interested in stalking you. We were trying to help.

EvanK
February 27th, 2012, 03:47 PM
The internet is a SCARY place....

That settles it then. We're all nuts. You're the only sane one.

DOS lives on!!
February 27th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Yep, the internet is scary. You've scared us with that insane Lisa idea.

Are you going to put a screen in the Lisa and run an emulator off that?

EvanK
February 27th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Yep, the internet is scary. You've scared us with that insane Lisa idea.

I don't think his idea is all that bad. An ordinary PC case that looks like a Lisa 1? Could be fun. One of the Twiggy slots could be a front-loader DVD; the other, a pop-out cup holder. :)

There's already a PC case in Altair (or was it IMSAI? I forget which) form factor, and there are plenty of case-modders out there who made all sorts of unusual products into PCs. So why not a Lisa 1 design?

DOS lives on!!
February 27th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Exactly. His idea isn't bad, just the way he wants to approach it and handle it is a little weird.

Se87
February 27th, 2012, 04:12 PM
I'm in the area of Ohio-Virginia, really close to the two. Some guy on Craigslist won't message me back about a Macintosh SE for 50 bucks. :mad:

EvanK
February 27th, 2012, 05:45 PM
I'm in the area of Ohio-Virginia

Good not to be precise. After all, if you actually said which state, then we'd all know where your house is....

Anyway, I personally know MANY hardcore vintage computer collectors in Ohio and Virginia. So, relax, you're not alone.


really close to the two.

Well then, you should go to VCF East in New Jersey, and/or VCF Midwest in Chicago. Take a road trip.

DOS lives on!!
February 27th, 2012, 05:50 PM
Anyway, I personally know MANY hardcore vintage computer collectors in Ohio and Virginia. So, relax, you're not alone.
Well then, you should go to VCF East in New Jersey, and/or VCF Midwest in Chicago. Take a road trip.
Count me in to the VA category.:)

I may try to come to the VCF this year, but flying is expensive. But the experience surely overcomes that.

Se87
February 28th, 2012, 03:33 PM
I'd absolutely adore to go to the Vintage Computing festival. I have looked at pictures of it forever, but I never realized it was in places other than California.

Se87
February 28th, 2012, 03:35 PM
Count me in to the VA category.:)

I may try to come to the VCF this year, but flying is expensive. But the experience surely overcomes that.

No wonder I can never find and cool old machines at yard sales and thrift shops, you buy them all up. :-|

DOS lives on!!
February 28th, 2012, 03:44 PM
True, true. I have found very little old machines at yard sales around here. I even had to drive to Knoxville to stumble upon my 5160 XT.

Se87
February 28th, 2012, 03:52 PM
True, true. I have found very little old machines at yard sales around here. I even had to drive to Knoxville to stumble upon my 5160 XT.

Kind of stinks. Best finds I've had is a TRS-80 Model 4 with about everything but the original boxes, it started smoking recently and I think it was a capacitor. I also found this one place that I got a C64 from, a Vic-20, and a Tandy 1000. But the hunt continues!

EvanK
February 28th, 2012, 07:00 PM
I'd absolutely adore to go to the Vintage Computing festival. I have looked at pictures of it forever, but I never realized it was in places other than California.

The version in California is on hiatus. However, in addition to my show (VCF East), there's VCF Midwest (Chicago) and VCF Europa (Munich.) There have also been a few "VCF Lite" events in places such as Dallas and London. Anyway, VCF East is currently the largest and most established of the U.S. editions.

PS, notice the banner ad on this forum? :)

Se87
February 29th, 2012, 12:44 PM
The version in California is on hiatus. However, in addition to my show (VCF East), there's VCF Midwest (Chicago) and VCF Europa (Munich.) There have also been a few "VCF Lite" events in places such as Dallas and London. Anyway, VCF East is currently the largest and most established of the U.S. editions.

PS, notice the banner ad on this forum? :)

Yeah, I wondered what that was....

lutiana
February 29th, 2012, 01:41 PM
The internet is a SCARY place....

Yes it is. But think about this logically for a moment. If you posted your State here, or even your town and state how the hell is anyone actually going to find you?? Unless of course you live in a town that has a population of less than 10 then just maybe someone could find you, but at the state level? It's just not going to happen. People on this forum can and will give you much more relevant advice if they have a rough idea of where you are, it is a small community online and off after all.

Also, have you read your original post? Nowhere in there does it say you are looking to build just the case. It completely implies that you want to build a full replica and show it off to some mac store people (I re-read it twice). You only clarified your intent in the 23rd post in this thread. So no need to get defensive about "everybody" misunderstanding you.

That all being said, the idea of building a replica case, then putting modern stiuff in it, or something running a Lisa 1 emulator on it sounds like a pretty neat project, and is very doable for not too much money.

Lorne
February 29th, 2012, 02:41 PM
People on this forum can and will give you much more relevant advice if they have a rough idea of where you are, it is a small community online and off after all.



Exactly !

Why location isn't a requirement before signing up, I can't understand.
It would save so much of the "where are you located?" type of posts.

Se87
February 29th, 2012, 03:41 PM
Yes it is. But think about this logically for a moment. If you posted your State here, or even your town and state how the hell is anyone actually going to find you?? Unless of course you live in a town that has a population of less than 10 then just maybe someone could find you, but at the state level? It's just not going to happen. People on this forum can and will give you much more relevant advice if they have a rough idea of where you are, it is a small community online and off after all.

Also, have you read your original post? Nowhere in there does it say you are looking to build just the case. It completely implies that you want to build a full replica and show it off to some mac store people (I re-read it twice). You only clarified your intent in the 23rd post in this thread. So no need to get defensive about "everybody" misunderstanding you.

That all being said, the idea of building a replica case, then putting modern stiuff in it, or something running a Lisa 1 emulator on it sounds like a pretty neat project, and is very doable for not too much money.

The "Scary place" thing was sarcasm... There was this one guy who said something about following me and I was suggesting it is a scary place with people like him in it...

twolazy
April 2nd, 2012, 03:44 AM
It depends on the compact macs. 250 for eight Mac classics is a poor buy but 250 for a mix of Mac Plus, SE, SE/30, or Classic II systems would be better.

I dunno I paid 50 dollars for my Classic, but it included an external HDD as well, plus I got to play with it working beforehand and it isnt very yellow, never seen sunlight... Really depends on the condition imho, but yes SE's/Classic Colors be a much better buy thats for sure! So what ever happened to that deal, and are you still planning on making this case?

I've been following this thread somewhat, and I love the idea. Don't let the people round here discourage ya. TBH if yours comes out nice enough, and you blog your steps, I most likely would make one myself if the prices are reasonable. I love the idea! I can't afford a lisa either, but I own alot of classic Mac stuff. The idea I could have the next best thing is inticing... And I applaud your effort thus far , and moreso if you continue this project! The electronics etc I go a whole different route, I perhaps use a mac classic or se/30 as the hardware, including crt, and scale the machine the 3/4ths. The Lisa has a 12" screen, mac classics are 9". You could go even further and put 3.5" superdrives behind the twiggy flaceplates...

Se87
April 4th, 2012, 05:55 AM
I'm suprised this post is in the top few. At this point I think I'll make a Lisa 1 faceplate, remove the disk drive and Widget, and finally just sit a Profile on top. Because I proudly own a Lisa 2/10 which if I must so say myself is in musuem condition. Not a single blemish on the case other than a tiny scratch and slight yellowing, both of which are EXETREMELY hard to see. It would make a good contestant. twolazy, I couldn't afford a Lisa either. But with enough trying I got one but I think I should make molds of the case then work out the electronics. The moment I get that far, you could be the first to recieve them. Thank you for the support!

platatomi
April 17th, 2012, 05:15 PM
It depends on the innards. If the electronics are a true rebuild of the original, down to every single component - indistinguishable from the original, then it would be pretty cool.

Otherwise, not really worth it.