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Mark2000
March 20th, 2012, 10:00 AM
So I final was able to boot my 5170. On the initial memory check it gets to 3200KB (out of what should be 4736kb) and says

380000 00FF 201-Memory Error
164-Memory Size Error-(Run SETUP)

I can then hit F1 and continue. It then tries to boot from the HDD which brings up a constant Non-System Disk or Disk Error message. When I hit enter the drive tries to read with about four unsuccessful "blehs" and the gives me the same error.

Anyone know what might be going on? The drive was said to be bootable so I'm assuming it's fried? It's the original 30mb MFM drive so I'm wondering if the fools needed to park it before sending it and didn't. As for the memory, is this a setup problem or do you think a board may have come loose?

Stone
March 20th, 2012, 10:26 AM
I see you got your multisync.

Can you boot from a floppy disk? When you do, can you then access the HD? 'Non System Disk or Disk Error' doesn't mean the disk is bad. It might mean that the geometry isn't set right in CMOS, or it's not running on the HD controller it was formatted with. If you want you can SKYPE me.

As for the memory you should run the setup program.

Chuck(G)
March 20th, 2012, 10:31 AM
The first error message says that it sees the first 3584K and then nothing. Could be a loose/under-populated board--or a board simply configured incorrectly. Or the seller removed a board without reconfiguring the CMOS.

The "Non system disk or disk error" actually comes from the boot sector of a device. It means that either the files needed for booting are not present or the sector(s) that contain them have errors--or the drive type is misconfigured.. So technically, the drive does boot.

If you're curious as to what's on the hard disk, you might try booting from floppy and see if you see anything. Otherwise, low-level format the HD and install a new system.

Mark2000
March 20th, 2012, 10:55 AM
Yup, unfortunately I don't have a boot disk, or any 5.25 disk. I'm wondering if maybe the battery is dying and loosing the settings for the memory and drive. Possible? BTW, referring to the other thread I discovered what the mystery cards are. The I/O is the memory extension. The main board has 128k and the daughter board has the other 2.5 megs. The two cards connected with ribbon cables I thought were memory extensions are actually 370 mainfraim emulators. At least that's what I think they are. It says PC/370 in them. I have no idea what to do with them.

Chuck(G)
March 20th, 2012, 11:04 AM
Yup, you've got the S/370 emulator setup. Pretty cool is you're into that.

The PC AT advanced diagnostics floppy is pretty much a must for this--there are copies floating around. In a pinch, you can fit a 3.5" drive to your system.

Mark2000
March 20th, 2012, 11:19 AM
I removed the battery all together and I'm getting the same errors. I don't know if that proves a battery problem or not...

Stone
March 20th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Yup, unfortunately I don't have a boot disk, or any 5.25 disk. I'm wondering if maybe the battery is dying and loosing the settings for the memory and drive. Possible?No. The battery is only necessary to retain the settings when the power is off. You can even do a warm reboot and not lose the CMOS settings with no battery. Wait, if you don't have a disk, how are you setting the CMOS?

SpidersWeb
March 20th, 2012, 11:40 AM
I think he means the CMOS settings that were set once upon a time, rather than the settings he has set.
I'd offer to send a diags disk, but it'd take like a month and probably arrive wet :eek:

Diags disk, and possibly a replacement battery, and sounds like it'll be a nice machine.

Lorne
March 20th, 2012, 11:53 AM
I'd offer to send a diags disk, but it'd take like a month and probably arrive wet :eek:



I'm closer than SpidersWeb so the disk wouldn't arrive wet, but I don't have a disk.
If you can point me to an image, I can make the disk and pop it in the mail (I've even got some 5 1/4" floppy disk mailers).

Mark2000
March 20th, 2012, 11:56 AM
I was talking to the tech at the recycler that sold me the machine. He thinks the drive got bounced around and has crashed. He said they tested is, formatted it, and put DOS 3.3 on it.

The missing 1mb of memory is also really odd.

Stone
March 20th, 2012, 12:00 PM
Putting DOS 3.3 on it and putting it on so that it will boot are two entirely different things and I'm not sure a recycler would always know the difference.

Bottom line -- you need to access this machine with a floppy.

Mark2000
March 20th, 2012, 12:10 PM
I'm thinking I don't need this hassle with the drive. I was thinking of replacing it anyway. Is this scenario possible? Someone is sending me some AMI bios. Can I put in an IDE controller and boot from a CF card on an adapter? If so, how would I set the type 47 drive and could I format the CF to be bootable in Windows XP? I'm going to miss the hard drive noise though... Almost kills the whole nostalgia angle.

MikeS
March 20th, 2012, 12:16 PM
Sounds like a lot more "hassle" than just getting a hold of a setup diskette, not to mention that you might still need one anyway ;-)

Stone
March 20th, 2012, 12:17 PM
You can't just put any old BIOS into a computer. It has to match the motherboard somewhat.

Beside, MikeS is correct, I don't remember a 5170 being able to access its CMOS without a diskette. It's not like some of the more modern 286s.

Chuck(G)
March 20th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Here's the 5170 Advanced Diagnostics Disk Image (http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/misc/5170_advanced_diagnostics_2.07.zip)

SpidersWeb
March 20th, 2012, 01:22 PM
I'm thinking I don't need this hassle with the drive. I was thinking of replacing it anyway. Is this scenario possible? Someone is sending me some AMI bios. Can I put in an IDE controller and boot from a CF card on an adapter? If so, how would I set the type 47 drive and could I format the CF to be bootable in Windows XP? I'm going to miss the hard drive noise though... Almost kills the whole nostalgia angle.

In agreeance with posts above.
By the sounds of it you only need a DOS boot disk with format or sys on it, and an IBM diags disk.
Adding ROMs wont fix the startup errors, and you'd want the XTIDE BIOS which needs to be put on a ROM (you can't just throw an AMI BIOS in a NIC) which is way way more effort and you lose both value and and part of the 5170's charm in the process.

If the hard drive isn't throwing up actual hard drive failure messages or making scraping noises, then chances are it's either fine or at worst needs a low level format. Non-system disk often just means they forgot "/S" during format. As Stone said, copying and installing are different things.

I'd recommend grabbing a 5.25" drive off ebay or similar and throwing it in another PC, then grabbing a pack of 1.2Mb disks, it'll make your situation a lot easier.

Mark2000
March 20th, 2012, 01:41 PM
I'm getting the 5170 specific AMI drivers from modem7's site. They apparently don't need a disk to enter setup. A friend of mine is making a dos disk and a diag disk and coming by tomorrow night. We'll see how it turns out. You guys are giving me hope.

Stone
March 20th, 2012, 01:42 PM
I'd recommend grabbing a 5.25" drive off ebay or similar and throwing it in another PC, then grabbing a pack of 1.2Mb disks, it'll make your situation a lot easier.Not even... he could just 'borrow' the 1.2 drive in his AT for that purpose.

SpidersWeb
March 20th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Not even... he could just 'borrow' the 1.2 drive in his AT for that purpose.
Yes very true, it's not necessary. But it is totally worth the extra few bucks for getting things setup nicely.

Good luck Mark, I'd still recommend you leave the ROM upgrade as a last resort. But AMI do a great CMOS setup ;)
You'll need a ROM burner + a pair of 27C256's to burn the two images to (or use the factory modules, if you're confident and have a UV eraser).

Mark2000
March 20th, 2012, 03:53 PM
RetroHacker_ burned me a pair and they're in the mail as we speak. One of the things I might eventually do with machine is rip my old tape backups. I have a drive, but this is the only machine I have currently with a floppy controller. The problem will become that I don't have a drive big enough to unload the info onto (250mb tapes) I may get the ide controller, at least temporarily, so I can restore the stuff.

modem7
March 20th, 2012, 11:32 PM
Beside, MikeS is correct, I don't remember a 5170 being able to access its CMOS without a diskette.
On a 5170, it can be done via BASIC.
I wrote a Windows program a while back to generate the required BASIC code, which gets typed into BASIC.
See http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5170/setup/5170_setup.htm

Disconnecting the hard drive (and with no boot floppy) will force the 5170 into BASIC.

modem7
March 21st, 2012, 12:02 AM
I'm wondering if maybe the battery is dying and loosing the settings for the memory and drive. Possible?
1. If the battery voltage goes below an acceptable value (for more than a few minutes), CMOS/SETUP contents are lost, and the 5170 will generate a 161 error on power up.
2. If CMOS/SETUP contents unexpectantly change, the 5170 will generate a 162 error on power up.

Mark2000
March 21st, 2012, 09:42 PM
Ok, so you guys were right about the system files. We booted on a floppy and there was the C:. We copied the system files over and were able to boot from the HDD directly. There's a new problem, though. As we were using the computer over an hour we kept hitting unreadable sectors until the drive seems to have failed all together. It doesn't seem like the drive is accessible at all now. When I boot the machine I get a 1780 Error, Disk O failure. The HDD light flashes once and then nothing, not even seek noise. On entering MSDOS installer it says the HDD is not writable. Our best guess is the drive heated up and misaligned ever so slightly. I don't know what to try next.

We did figure out the memory problem. It was just set up as having more than it actually did. Counting chips gave us the exact number the computer was looking up before the error. Punching that into the setup cured it.

Ole Juul
March 21st, 2012, 10:11 PM
I don't know what to try next.

You do what has been suggested. :)

Chuck(G): If you're curious as to what's on the hard disk, you might try booting from floppy and see if you see anything. Otherwise, low-level format the HD and install a new system.

A low level format is standard maintenance to be done at regular intervals and there's not much point in fooling around unless you want to see what's left on the drive or experience what a drive in need of a LLF acts like.

krebizfan
March 21st, 2012, 10:13 PM
Depending on the hard disk, you might need to do a low level format of the HD. That would create a new set of tracks which would be aligned relative to where the drive heads now reside.

A low level format will not help if the drive suffered a several head crash in the past nor will it help if the controller card is going bad.

Mark2000
March 22nd, 2012, 08:56 AM
Here I am, head in hand, waiting for the AT Advanced Diag Disk to finish the system check. I think it's been 30 minutes already.

10:40 AM. An hour and a half. I know I'm supposed to wait awhile for this to finish, but is it stuck at this point?

Chuck(G)
March 22nd, 2012, 10:28 AM
You've very probably got issues.

Strip the system back to minimum (floppy and display--if you have a hard disk, disconnect it) and run the diagnostics. If they pass, start adding cards back.

How far does the system check get?

Mark2000
March 22nd, 2012, 10:34 AM
I press "0" to enter the system checkout and that's as far as I get. While it's sitting there the HDD thumps a few times and the floppy is spinning but not seeking.

Chuck(G)
March 22nd, 2012, 10:40 AM
I wonder if your floppy is reading correctly. Have you verified it on the system used to create it? Maybe we should start there. Did you configure the 5.25" on the system that you used to create the floppy as a 1.2M 5.25" drive in the BIOS setup?

Mark2000
March 22nd, 2012, 10:49 AM
I don't believe he verified it. We used the same disk to run the setup option and put in the correct memory size. Is there any other way to LLF without the diag disk? I know debug is out, but is BASIC an option?

Stone
March 22nd, 2012, 10:58 AM
In a word, SpeedStor.

Chuck(G)
March 22nd, 2012, 11:24 AM
You have the issue of getting enough stuff into the machine to load and run diagnostics and utilities It should be possible with BASIC, particularly if you've got a serial port on your PC--and another to match it on a "server" system connected with a "null modem" cable. But I'm not aware of anyone who's tried doing it recently.

A 3.5" drive might be your best bet at this point. Adapters for the power plug, as far as I know can still be had--and you can use a more modern floppy cable to hook it up, so you don't need to hassle with the edge connectors. Then you can create the boot disks on a machine that handles 3.5" media.

SpidersWeb
March 22nd, 2012, 11:57 AM
When my 286-XT arrived it booted fine too, but it was really just sucking the very last of the magentism off the disk, 3 boots later and it couldn't see anything - did a low level format and viola as good as new.

For getting data on to a machine, null-modem cable for the win. In fact I used it yesterday to load up my desktop 386 with goodies (needed WFW311 to get on the network ;) ). I got my cable delivered next-day for around $15NZD (10US?), so they're still out there, and easily made if you're so inclined.

I use FastLynx 2 (FX2). It has an upload mode which can copy itself to a host thanks to the DOS command 'ctty'. So you don't even need to copy it on to a disk first. It's an easy to use uttility with built in help etc. It usually works even if your DOS folder is missing, because it uses the same defaults for uploading as a standard DOS boot (2400,n,8,1)
Usually "ctty com1:" or "ctty com2:" is all you'd need on the client, then select Upload from FX2's menu on the host. (and I beleive ctty is part of command.com).

Once it finishes I find I have to reboot, then load it up, and you can use either machine to transfer/delete files.

FX2 and a lot of the DOS utils for drive formatting etc easily fit on floppies.

Edit: the above assumes you have at least one other machine with a serial port. If not, you may need to get yourself a hack machine to bridge the gap. Parallel is an option but can't remember if ctty works with it, FX2 does.
Edit2: if you fit that AMI BIOS you mentioned, I'm fairly certain you can Low Level Format with it
Edit3: I'm also assuming you have a spare disk with space on it - FX or FX2 are quite small but not tiny, in the 150Kb+ range from memory.

Chuck(G)
March 22nd, 2012, 02:00 PM
So what runs in the machine with nothing in it--no disks, nothing?

SpidersWeb
March 22nd, 2012, 02:36 PM
Well it needs a DOS boot disk to use the ctty command (which he has, unless the floppy broke? his earlier posts said he did and he browsed the HD)
Also needs to be enough disk space on the floppy to hold the FX2 files after the copy. Either the boot disk or another disk.

Can do a youtube clip of the procedure if needed.

For a machine with no disks at all, I guess you could pet it and admire it's good looks?

Chuck(G)
March 22nd, 2012, 04:57 PM
Well it needs a DOS boot disk to use the ctty command (which he has, unless the floppy broke? his earlier posts said he did and he browsed the HD)

If that's the case, he's fine. I was under the impression that it wouldn't boot the ODS he had. If so, well, Emily Litella.

Mark2000
March 22nd, 2012, 09:41 PM
Ok. I took every card out of the machine except for the ega card and the disk controller. After that I was finally able to get through the system check menu to the format menu. At that point I followed the instructions for a conditional format at which point I got a 1706 Write Error and was told to do an Unconditional Format. I followed through with that saying "no" to any defects because I didn't know of any, obviously. Again, I got a couple of 1706 Write Errors.

When I tried using Speenstor it threw a Parity Check 2??? at me and froze the system to the point of needing a hard boot. I ran the app from the disk fine in DosBox. So, is the drive dead or what?

Update 1: I just ran a surface analysis. It gave me a 1706 again but then started at cylindar 731 and started working down. I'll update again when it's done.

Update 2: The scan stalled out at cylinder 265. I shut the system down for the night.

Mark2000
March 23rd, 2012, 09:35 AM
I think I've pinned the "Parity Check" error and the system analysis hang to the 370 emulation boards. I put the expanded memory back in and all was still well. There maybe something odd in the emulator that trips up system utilities.

I ran the surface scan again from the adv diag disk and it went through the same motions, but this time produced another 1760 write error at the end. I tried running it again but it wouldn't even start. I then ran SpeedStor again and this time it loaded (without the 370 boards). Speedstor couldn't do anything with the disk. Everything I ran it came back with a write error. I even tried parking the heads. That got a seek error. I did a test of the controller board and that came back fine.

So, what's next? Is it a doorstop? I'm a little disheartened at this point. My original intention was really to swap the bios and controller out and put in an IDE drive and a 1.44, but as I worked on this with you guys - and seeing that even the drive cables were still taped together - I began to want to preserve this machine in it's original configuration. I especially feel bad about losing the data on the drive. It seems like it was a school computer. There was assembly language files from different authors, some of which I had the names as they were embedded in the code. Some were accounting softwares, one was a battle ship game. I think they may have been writing it for upload to a school mainframe? Maybe a university? Who knows. Anyway, it's all gone. But I'm glad I at least saw it.

If there's anything else I can do short of $1000 worth of physical repairs to the drive I'm willing. I know the data is gone, but the machine could live on in it's original state at the very least.

Chuck(G)
March 23rd, 2012, 10:15 AM
With the cards out, can you boot the 5170 diagnostics?

Mark2000
March 23rd, 2012, 10:21 AM
Yes, that's where I've been getting all the 1760 errors.

Stone
March 23rd, 2012, 10:21 AM
Isn't that the IBM 0665, Type 20, 30 mb. drive like Bettablue just sold? I think that was the original drive in the AT. If so, I have one and it works perfectly.

Chuck(G)
March 23rd, 2012, 10:27 AM
Are we talking about 1760 or 1706 errors? You've used both in your narrative.

Mark2000
March 23rd, 2012, 10:31 AM
Sorry, must have mispoke the second time. 1706 is what I get.

Stone
March 23rd, 2012, 10:54 AM
If you're getting a write error you should LLF the drive and then try again.

Even before that you should run Norton Disk Doctor or Spinrite on it. They can possibly correct format flaws and mark those sectors bad that are bad and then you will likely have full access to the drive. If you need either/both lemme know. I can help you there. I say this assuming your floppy drive is working correctly cause without that everything becomes more of a PITA.

Mark2000
March 23rd, 2012, 10:59 AM
Stone, it is the LLF that is failing with the write error. I can try Spinrite, but it is that very types of tests in Speedstor and the IBM Advanced Diagnostics that I've been trying to run with those errors also coming up.

Update: spinrite 6.0 won't load on this machine. It was tested in Dosbox before hand. It crashes and needs a softboot. Is there a particular old version I should be trying?

Chuck(G)
March 23rd, 2012, 11:25 AM
Error 1706 is sort of nebulous--"Write Fault", which I'm assuming is the detection of an active signal on the control interface pin 12. The reasons are various--according to the ST412 OEM manual (pretty much the standard):


Write current in a head without WRITE GATE active or no write current with WRITE GATE active and DRIVE SELECTED.
Multiple heads selected, or no head selected or improperly selected.
DC voltages are grossly out of tolerance.

Okay, so it's a catch-all error. So let's use the process of elimination. First off, power the system up and check the power supply output (that might have something to do with the Parity Check you received earlier).

Those being within +/- 5 percent of nominal, the next thing to check is to see that you've set the correct drive geometry in your CMOS setup. Note that neither the controller nor the diagnostics have any way to actually query the drive geometry; they take your word for it. If you're wrong, bizarre things can and do occur.

Finally, note that the first reason given points to a controller issue, not a drive issue. Check your cables.

Stone
March 23rd, 2012, 11:41 AM
Stone, it is the LLF that is failing with the write error. I can try Spinrite, but it is that very types of tests in Speedstor and the IBM Advanced Diagnostics that I've been trying to run with those errors also coming up.

Update: spinrite 6.0 won't load on this machine. It was tested in Dosbox before hand. It crashes and needs a softboot. Is there a particular old version I should be trying?You need Spinrite II... Version 2.0 or something old like that.

Or, like Chuck said, it could be the cable itself. Do you have another set?

Stone
March 23rd, 2012, 11:47 AM
Stone, it is the LLF that is failing with the write error. I can try Spinrite, but it is that very types of tests in Speedstor and the IBM Advanced Diagnostics that I've been trying to run with those errors also coming up. FWIW, Speedstor will test the controller in the Diagnostics section. While you're there try the seek test as well.

Mark2000
March 23rd, 2012, 11:49 AM
I don't have the hardware to test the voltages on the PSU. I'm pretty sure all the errors were do to the 370 board as they cleared up as soon as I removed them. I haven't entered any drive geometry. I've just set it up as a type 20 which is what it says on the front of the drive. I just rechecked the cables.

I think the issue is moot, though. On running the advanced Diag disk again after reseating everything and pulling the 720k disk out the HDD gave out a rattle like I've never heard from a disk. It was like there was a loose piece of metal being spun around by the platters spinning. The must be a physical injury in there. I don't think there's a point it messing with it anymore. Stone, I left you PM about that drive you have. Thanks!

Chuck(G)
March 23rd, 2012, 11:52 AM
Invest $5 in a cheap multimeter and check those voltages. Out of spec antique SMPSUs are far more common than you'd think. The added load from the PC 370 cards probably aggravated the situation, not caused it.

<rant>I'll admit to having a peeve--entirely too much vintage stuff gets scrapped because the owner doesn't want to learn to research and troubleshoot it, much less repair it. This is US-made stuff from the 1980s, not today's use-and-discard junk.</rant>

Stone
March 23rd, 2012, 12:26 PM
Mark, when I tell you in a PM what that other IBM drive (that *maybe* was in working condition) was sold for I'm sure you're gonna do what Chuck has suggested, before you go and replace your drive. :-) Also by checking the cables Chuck meant ... replace them with another, known good set. The only way I know if a cable set is good is if it works with a known good drive/controller.

Mark2000
March 23rd, 2012, 04:19 PM
Rant accepted and understood. At the very least It would have been good to sell it. But the facts are the techs didn't park the drives before mailing the computer. UPS bumped the thing hard enough that the daughter board on the I/o card disattached and was loose in the case. And, forgive me, but the drive was made in Singapore, not US :). I'm going to test the PSU when I have the chance because that just seems wise in general. I'm only coming up with ATX procedures, thought, both in the forum search and the rest of the web. Do you know a resource for the procedure and what to expect?

Stone
March 23rd, 2012, 04:49 PM
And, forgive me, but the drive was made in Singapore, not US :). FWIW, I have dozens of MFM/RLL drives and they're all made in Singapore or Maylasia. :-) :-)

I've got lots of drive rails. Can I figure out which one's are for the 5170? I'll try.

I might have a grey 1.44. Can I match the color scheme?

I've been ripping face plates off of FH doorstops, lately. Do you want to cover an empty bay or a full bay?

I didn't send the PM I promised earlier because I figured you weren't done working with your drive yet and I want you to be finished with that project before I induce heart failure. :-) When you're ready for the bad news, just lemme know.

Chuck(G)
March 23rd, 2012, 04:50 PM
Sure, leave the power supply connected, although you may need to remove it slightly from the case to get to the motherboard connectors. You can find the voltages at the motherboard connector described here (http://pinouts.ru/Power/MotherboardPower_pinout.shtml). As far as multimeters, if you're on the cheap you can get them for a couple of bucks at your favorite Chinese tool store--or check some of the big box home stores or even Radio Shack. Good enough for casual use. If you've only got Radio Shack near you, this kit (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3623264) is a pretty decent deal.

Mark2000
March 23rd, 2012, 09:02 PM
Sorry, but I'm dumb. When you say keep it connected do you mean to the board or to the wall. I'm figuring the second, but wondering if you might mean both.

Chuck(G)
March 23rd, 2012, 09:13 PM
You want to see the voltages while the system is connected and running (loading by devices can change voltage readings dramatically). You can also get the most important readings by checking a disk drive power plug while the system is operating (red wire is +5VDC, yellow is +12VDC, as referenced to the black wires in the center of the plug). No need to remove anything but the case cover.

Mark2000
April 3rd, 2012, 09:58 AM
Been out of state, so I just had time to run the tests now. The PSU checks out within .07v on every prong under full load. I've also found out that it's the Sound Blaster causing the trouble with the Diag disk and not the 370 boards. I wonder if its a resource problem. Now that I know the PSU is good I don't mind putting other stuff in it.

twolazy
April 3rd, 2012, 03:42 PM
I think I have a set of AT rails somewhere round here, they came on my Seagate 225. They should be brownish black like the floppy drives, with slightly rounded tapered edges if I recall correctly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Drive-Rails-one-set-2-pcs-IBM-AT-NEW-/230367269167?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a2f5912f
Like these for $4 or so shipped ^

Mark2000
April 3rd, 2012, 08:31 PM
Thanks! I just bought two sets.