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Mark2000
April 9th, 2012, 10:43 AM
I'm getting my IDE controller in today and I've got my 4GB CF Microdrive and an IDE<->CF adapter sitting here waiting for it. I successfully put AMI bios into the machine and ready to go. I'm just wondering how I should expect to set this up. I'm seeing that only around 500mb of the drive may ever be seen by the bios. Can I partition the drive to get all the space? Do I need to get software to trick the bios and set up the drive? Should I just be happy with 500mb (its an AT after all)?

Chuck(G)
April 9th, 2012, 11:01 AM
No, the limitation is due to a BIOS interface issue (1024 cylinders, 16 heads, 63 sectors). You might want to try anydrive. (search the forum for it).

Mark2000
April 9th, 2012, 11:15 AM
Found it. Let me know if I'm right about this: The AMI BIOS will do type 47 which will probably allow 520mb. Anydrive seems to do the same thing, but with BIOS that don't allow type 47 (select largest available). As far as the documents tell me Anydrive only does up to 520mb also, so it may not be useful in this case.

Chuck(G)
April 9th, 2012, 11:19 AM
Well, if you use ANYDRIVE, the BIOS interface is replaced at boot time, so the BIOS drive type setting doesn't matter. ISTR that you can even use type 1.

Mark2000
April 9th, 2012, 11:27 AM
Oh, I understand. I'm just saying that the Bios type 47 will probably do the same job as Anydrive: only allowing access to 520mb of the 4GB drive.

DOS lives on!!
April 9th, 2012, 11:54 AM
Just specify a lower drive type in the BIOS, any lower setting will do.

Stone
April 9th, 2012, 01:20 PM
And, that is why it's called....... AnyDrive! :-) :-)

DOS lives on!!
April 9th, 2012, 01:26 PM
DING-DING-DING-DING---Stone wins a brand new car!!

Mark2000, what OS are you planning to install on it? (Or what version of DOS) If it's just a version of DOS, maybe a smaller capacity CF card will do?

Pepinno
April 9th, 2012, 02:13 PM
Mark2000, what OS are you planning to install on it? (Or what version of DOS) If it's just a version of DOS, maybe a smaller capacity CF card will do?

He could try SCO Xenix in that AT machine (why do I hear myself always talking about Xenix, btw?).

twolazy
April 9th, 2012, 02:22 PM
In those machines that are picky, I use Quantum's Disk Manager for Dos, it includes an overlay program ...
http://en.seguridadpc.net/disk-manager/quantum(dos).htm

Mark2000
April 9th, 2012, 02:51 PM
Dos Lives On, I'm going to install the highest MS DOS I seem to be able to, 6.22. I'm assuming 7.1 has some 386 only elements. Probably going to try WFW 3.1 at some point. Obviously I'm working with FAT16 only. I could use a smaller CF card, but I bought the 4GB Magicstor recommended by twolazy in the marketplace because it was $5 shipped. I have a 256mb CF card around here somewhere... But 520mb is still bigger.

Stone
April 9th, 2012, 03:28 PM
3.1 will run in Standard Mode on a 286, but not Enhanced Mode.

twolazy
April 9th, 2012, 04:41 PM
Use that software I linked in a windows environment. It will format a bootable floppy (worked fine in win7 32-bit btw!) . Boot that to create partitions, install the overlay, etc. You will be able to use the entire 4gb then. ;)

Mark2000
April 11th, 2012, 08:57 AM
Ok, I'm having a booting issue. The adapter I got should do fine booting a CF card and I marked the primary partition in fdisk as active. But even after installing DOS 6.22 when it's time to book the drive the computer just sits there. If I use a boot disk I can access the drive just fine, but I can't boot from it. No error messages at all.

I haven't been able to run disk manager because I can't seem to get myself in the proper windows environment. VMWare won't make the disk on my Mac because, apparently, OSX won't allow that level of interaction.

Stone
April 11th, 2012, 09:15 AM
By installing DOS 6.22 you don't mean copying the files, right? :-) At least not the system files. They must be properly installed by a valid method.

Chuck(G)
April 11th, 2012, 09:16 AM
What did you use to partition the disk? Did you add a DDO?

Mark2000
April 11th, 2012, 09:40 AM
I used FDISK to partition, then I activated the partition and installed 6.22 off the bootable setup floppies. I even used sys to put the boot files on the drive when I was done. I couldn't make the DDO work as explained above. OSX won't let my VM of XP create it.

I'm wondering, since a lot of the drive is not being used if the boot sector is part of it and if it has something to do with the way the disk is set up in the bios (type 47 1024/16/63).

pearce_jj
April 11th, 2012, 09:51 AM
boot from a 6.22 floppy and run "fdisk /mbr"

Stone
April 11th, 2012, 10:14 AM
boot from a 6.22 floppy and run "fdisk /mbr"Good to see somebody is still thinking around here. :-)

Mark2000
April 11th, 2012, 10:34 AM
boot from a 6.22 floppy and run "fdisk /mbr"

Ok, that worked. Didn't know that trick. Thanks! Now if I could only get this cf adapter to report when the disk is active. Not working on the adapter itself or the led attached to the controller.

Chuck(G)
April 11th, 2012, 11:06 AM
Good to see somebody is still thinking around here. :-)

You and I were thinking the same thing. :)

pearce_jj
April 11th, 2012, 11:19 AM
Ok, that worked. Didn't know that trick. Thanks! Now if I could only get this cf adapter to report when the disk is active. Not working on the adapter itself or the led attached to the controller.

Great. Try a different card - I think it was Chuck that found that some CF cards would drive only about 2mA via /DASP (the activity LED). To add, try disconnecting whichever LED you can too.

Mark2000
April 19th, 2012, 08:40 AM
Sigh. I just couldn't leave well enough alone. I've been trying different CF cards so that I can have different system setups on each and I'm running into what seems like compatibility problems. I have one CF1 that works - an Apacer 64mb. The other two - a Sandisk 256mb and a Canon 8mb - come up with errors like the ones here: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?25286-CF-to-IDE-adaptor-read-errors. Those two are one's I had lying around the house and the problem is probably not fixable.

But the real problem is a new card I just received - a Transcend 512mb industrial. Formatting it in different places seems to have different effects: Fresh out of the box DOS 6.22 and 5.0 would not boot off a floppy. The drive would read for awhile and then the light would just go out. Oddly enough I could boot with 3.3 but anything I would run after that would end with the drive just stopping. Formatted on my Mac the DOS will boot, but on running FDisk I get a runtime error r6003 - which is usually what you get when you run FDisk from a dos shell. Formatting as FAT in Windows returns me to the original problem of no DOS boot. Formatting in the AMI Bios in the 286 boots DOS, runs FDisk, but gives me the r6003 error when I try to partition. All of these formats give me a invalid drive when trying to access C: (if they boot to a prompt).

So is this just an incompatible drive or am I doing something wrong again? If it is incompatible I'm 1 for 4 right now. Anyone know a 256 or 512mb card that is confirmed to work? I'd go Apacer again, but those does seem to be sold in that size anyone, not even on ebay.

Ole Juul
April 19th, 2012, 03:13 PM
I just had a quick read through this thread, so maby I missed something. Anyway, if you're having trouble with errors, perhaps it is in the way the partition software is working on a CF which can be a little different than the HDDs it is designed for. I found that overlapping partitions were a problem and that the Ranish Partition Manager solved that problem. YMMV

Mark2000
April 19th, 2012, 08:49 PM
Ranish wouldn't load with even the disks that worked in DOS. I'm going to see if I can run it on Windows XP.

Ole Juul
April 19th, 2012, 09:07 PM
Ranish wouldn't load with even the disks that worked.
After I said that, I had a feeling that it might not. However, you could perhaps partition on another machine first.

In my case FDISK looked like it worked, but when I saw what it had done, I realized that the explanation for why things went bad after a while was that there were overlapping numbers, and Ranish solved that. Perhaps there is other software where you can specify exactly. BTW, the card I am using (which has worked flawlessly for months now) is a Kingston 8GB Elite-pro 133X.

There was some discussion here (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?27172-Quiet-and-reliable-6-10GB-HDD), and here (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/archive/index.php/t-27563.html). Note that pearce_jj points out that "DOS will align paritions on them straddling underlying blocks, i.e. commencing at sector 63" which is where I think problems arise.

Mark2000
April 19th, 2012, 11:03 PM
I just got Ranish working on the 286. Didn't realize until digging in the docs that the latest version was only 32bit. I fixed the errors Ranish was finding in the CHS and the partition size info and reformatted the card. Unfortunately nothing has changed. Still can't boot or run anything from the disks partially working. I also got a divide error and crash when running Ranish with the card that wouldn't allow FDisk to run. What a mess, huh?

Ole Juul
April 20th, 2012, 12:00 AM
I just got Ranish working on the 286. Didn't realize until digging in the docs that the latest version was only 32bit. I fixed the errors Ranish was finding in the CHS and the partition size info and reformatted the card. Unfortunately nothing has changed. Still can't boot or run anything from the disks partially working. I also got a divide error and crash when running Ranish with the card that wouldn't allow FDisk to run. What a mess, huh?

And here I thought I was helping - sorry! I've got a terrible memory, but I seem t recall that I actually made sure that the numbers fit the blocks rather than let Ranish just "fix" it. Anyway, this could be a blind alley. Is it possible that some CF cards have non-standard, or strange, logical structure?

twolazy
April 20th, 2012, 12:52 AM
Hrm strange, I have the magicstor running smoothly on a dos/win3.11 system. I set the bios to what the overlay said to use, installed the overlay, and ran through the os installation. Rebooted, and working fine... >.>

Divide by 0 error, makes me think you have ram issues, have you run a memory test yet to rule it out? Could be a bad ide cable too...

Ole Juul
April 20th, 2012, 01:05 AM
Divide by 0 error, makes me think you have ram issues, have you run a memory test yet to rule it out? Could be a bad ide cable too...

I bet you're right. I didn't catch the software setup either - could even be a misconfiguration of memory manager or caching software.

Mark2000
April 20th, 2012, 06:02 AM
Alright. To answer all your questions:

The Magicstor card runs fine. It's one of the only ones that does.

I've tested my memory through the BIOS and Checkit and it all checks out fine. The Divide error only happens with one of the cards - the Transcend 512mb. Its the same card that causes the floppy to cut out during boot if formatted by Windows. I have no other issues like that any other time.

The IDE Cable should be fine as it's working with the two working drives, but I can replace it.

There are no overlays or mem managers installed. I'm booting from a pure DOS disk with no config.sys or autoexec.bat.

Zombie is telling me in PM that it could be that my controller is BIOSless and therefore there's no support for the cards, but I then don't understand why some cards work fine. I'm wondering if this is a bios problem if an overlay would fix the problem on all the cards.

pearce_jj
April 21st, 2012, 06:47 AM
Are you using the XT/IDE Universal BIOS at the moment, and if so is the controllers own BIOS disabled?

Mark2000
April 21st, 2012, 05:35 PM
I don't believe there are BIOS on the IDE card. I'm not using xtide. Would you stick them in the extra u27/u47 sockets or would you replace the main bios - in my case ami for 286.

twolazy
April 21st, 2012, 07:38 PM
neither will work. Do you happen to have a network card installed on this machine? If you do you just need an eprom, if not you will need some sort of interface card. XT-IDE be one example.

pearce_jj
April 21st, 2012, 10:48 PM
OK so the earlier results are direct enquiry of the hardware. It sounds that either one channel is faulty or there is a resource conflict (probably more likely) causing the lock-up.

If you need somewhere to host the XTIDE Universal BIOS, hopefully I will have some kit-form ISA cards available in a few weeks (all through-hole) that provide a 32K or 64K in-system programmable ROM (actually a flash chip).

Mark2000
April 24th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Pearce, that bit about a conflict interested me so I removed my Soundblaster, which was causing problems with the IBM Advanced Diagnostics Disk as well as a Parity Error in CheckIt. I removed it, though, and am getting the same results. This is the board I have: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-disk-floppy-controllers/A-B/ACCULOGIC-INC-Two-IDE-AT-drives-SIDE-3.html. If there is a conflict there may be setting to remove it... or make it worse.

I do have a NIC card with an empty bank. I guess I would need some good chap to burn me a chip to stick in it (for which I would pay them) if I'm going to try that solution. One other most likely dumb question out of curiosity - why isn't there an XTIDE ROM that fits the AT's extra empty banks? I know those are for BIOS extensions. Wouldn't it be logical to fill them up rather than sticking yet another card in an ISA slot?

pearce_jj
April 25th, 2012, 03:59 AM
You can stick the ROM anywhere, if there is a spare socket on-board that supports an 8KB ROM then that is certainly fine.

Many users here don't have the ability to write to 27Cxx chips and 28Cxx chips are horribly expensive (and again need a board capable of writing to them) - hence why I decided to create a little flash-based board for the job.

Mark2000
April 25th, 2012, 07:23 AM
"Optional ROMs U17/U37

Motherboard sockets U17 and U37 are empty, available to be populated by ROMs, if desired.
Like the BIOS ROMs, they are to be of type 27256 (with speed of 150nS or faster), and like the BIOS ROMs, they are 8-bit ROMs supplying 8-bit data to a 16-bit data bus. U17 supplies the lower 8 bits of the 16 bits and U37 supplies the upper 8 bits of the 16 bits. As a result, the bytes from U17 appear at even addresses, and the bytes from U37 appear at odd addresses. In the 5170 memory map, their combined output appears at addresses E0000 (896K) through to EFFFF (960K-1).
While the ROMs could contain any data, BIOS expansion ROMs can be placed in U17/U37, because a part of the POST looks for the BIOS expansion signature (AA55h) at address E0000."

8658

pearce_jj
April 25th, 2012, 08:06 AM
That is why there's no xtide BIOS 'kit' available in this form (that and because it's a software project I suppose). Of course for anyone with 27C256 chips at hand and a programmer it's a neat solution.

Otherwise, the chips alone will cost you 20 (http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/m27c256b-15f1/ic-eprom-cmos-256k-27c256-dip28/dp/1125431) and then we need a programmer or someone to program them. 28C256 chips should work too, but unfortunately they're even more expensive (http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1095782) and still need some way to program them.

Mark2000
April 25th, 2012, 08:57 AM
Would these work: http://www.ebay.com/itm/M27C256B-12F1-ST-Micro-Integrated-Circuit-Lot-of-5-Pieces-/160669935768?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2568aca898

With this writer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOP853-USB-Universal-Programmer-EPROM-MCU-GAL-PIC-abw-/380422833337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5892f7c4b9

If so, not too big an investment here in the US.

pearce_jj
April 25th, 2012, 09:41 AM
Yes probably, then you'd just need to split the BIOS file into the two halves (via a simple C or Pascal type program).

Mark2000
April 26th, 2012, 07:23 AM
I wonder if I could avoid the whole rom burning experience by just getting this: http://www.amazon.com/Promise-Technology-Eidepro-16Bit-CD-Blitz/dp/B00005112Y?SubscriptionId=AKIAJASE6HSSVXTNREYQ&tag=vglnk-c1023-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00005112Y

It's an ISA IDE card with LBA BIOS on board. Any change this would be a solution?

Mark2000
May 18th, 2012, 02:37 PM
Alrighty. I finally got the chips and a programmer and I've successfully installed XTIDE into the u17 and u37 banks on my 5170. The boot menu comes up and everything. One thing I can't find info on is how to set my bios for a 500mb+ drive. Do I just set it as no drive? Type 1?

Stone
May 18th, 2012, 02:52 PM
Do I just set it as no drive? Type 1?You mean you haven't already tried both options..... and more??????????????? Geez, where's you adventerous spirit, anyway? :-)

I don't really think it matters what you have the CMOS drive set to. The XTIDE takes primary control of that parameter.

Mark2000
May 18th, 2012, 03:09 PM
Well, funny enough I burned, installed, and tested the chips right before I had to run out the door to pick up the kid. Now I'm away from the machine and figured I'd ask and just have the answer when I got home.

pearce_jj
May 18th, 2012, 10:38 PM
Set the machines own BIOS to no drives. At boot the built-in BIOS runs and will ignore the hard disk, then it transfers control to the XT/IDE BIOS which you can configured accordingly (using xtidecfg and saving the file). If everything is good you should then find the drive detected and, if there's an OS on it, the machine will boot right up.

lutiana
June 18th, 2017, 01:21 PM
Alrighty. I finally got the chips and a programmer and I've successfully installed XTIDE into the u17 and u37 banks on my 5170. The boot menu comes up and everything.

Ok, time to resurrect this one.

How did you achieve this?