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View Full Version : IBM PC Dos Version 1.0 kinda I think



Jimmy
April 16th, 2012, 05:55 PM
This is on eBay as the Holy Grail or DOS. I am very new here and the information provided to my questions has been fantasitic.

This item is the Version 1.0 disk but with a Version 1.1 manual I think.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-DOS-Ver-1-00-HOLY-GRAIL-OF-DOS?item=290698933271

Would not having the original matching manual greatly reduce the value?

Thanks,

Jimmy

Ole Juul
April 16th, 2012, 08:08 PM
This item is the Version 1.0 disk but with a Version 1.1 manual I think.

Would not having the original matching manual greatly reduce the value?

I would think so, but the diskette itself is likely to garner about what they're asking. However, what did come with 1.0?

I've got a 1.1 disk and a couple of 2.1s, but I don't anticipate finding a 1.0 any time soon. I'm certainly not going to pay a collector's prices for it.

Floppies_only
April 16th, 2012, 10:05 PM
This is on eBay as the Holy Grail or DOS. I am very new here and the information provided to my questions has been fantasitic.

This item is the Version 1.0 disk but with a Version 1.1 manual I think.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-DOS-Ver-1-00-HOLY-GRAIL-OF-DOS?item=290698933271

Would not having the original matching manual greatly reduce the value?

Thanks,

Jimmy

Jimmy,

If I was interested in this item I would have a friend take the seller to the woodshed. For an asking price of half a grand U.S., the auction should have ten to twenty pictures showing everything being offered, including model numbers of the manual slipcase, binder, and cover page, copywrite page, and Preface, to include a complete history of any revision(s) or of the fact that the manual started its life as a version 1.10 manual. I would have my friend tell the seller that as far as I was concerned, the auction is only for the disk without cover and the manual pages without binder and slipcase, and not worth more than one hundred dollars at most (and this is probably inflated, as well).

I would have the friend (pick one who doesn't buy anything this guy sells) tell him that his item description is proof that he has flunked as an ebay seller and I hope he looses his listing fee with no sale and stops selling on ebay to improve the overall quality of sellers on ebay.

Sean

Ole Juul
April 16th, 2012, 10:42 PM
I must say, I was surprised when I clicked on the link. What? Only one picture and no description? I do think this item has the potential to sell for the starting price, but with this unusual presentation might indeed go unsold.

MikeS
April 16th, 2012, 10:51 PM
And of course there's the bane of the game collectors, counterfeits...

Ole Juul
April 17th, 2012, 12:17 AM
And of course there's the bane of the game collectors, counterfeits...

I was just looking carefully at my disks yesterday and trying to ascertain how easy it would be to print a similar label. The thought would be to make a couple for disks that go with the computers where they belong and keep the originals elsewhere. I decided actually that it would be so easy that if I did it, I would have to include an unobtrusive distinguishing mark so as to prevent someone making a mistake in the future, intentionally or otherwise. It is indeed possible that someone could have a different perspective.

Jimmy
April 17th, 2012, 05:53 AM
Thanks everyone for replying. As always the information is top notch.

I think i need to pass on this one.

Jimmy

Maverick1978
April 17th, 2012, 07:37 AM
Jimmy... for that price, you should get a complete copy of 1.00 - I've seen it go for that price in the last year or so more than once. I've also seen it hit double that price in the last year or so. With this guy's poor photos, I expect this to go unsold. The travesty will happen when some idiot decides that a single floppy disk is worth that kind of money and pays it, thereby further inflating the value of the product. Sigh. And so it goes... ebay.... the best - and worst - thing to happen to collecting, anything.

Great Hierophant
April 17th, 2012, 08:49 AM
You are really paying $500 for a label, nothing more. PC-DOS 1.00 can be found elsewhere and put on any 5.25" floppy disk.

Stone
April 17th, 2012, 08:52 AM
I was just looking carefully at my disks yesterday and trying to ascertain how easy it would be to print a similar label. The thought would be to make a couple for disks that go with the computers where they belong and keep the originals elsewhere. I decided actually that it would be so easy that if I did it, I would have to include an unobtrusive distinguishing mark so as to prevent someone making a mistake in the future, intentionally or otherwise. It is indeed possible that someone could have a different perspective.But, that wouldn't even be the hard part for someone (not you, Ole) who had counterfeiting on his mind. IIRC, all IBM system disks of this era were made without a write protect notch. So, if someone were to make a copy he'd need to find a suitable housing for it -- one without a write protect notch, before he could even dream of putting a fake lable on it. If anyone is in doubt as to the authenticity of this eBay disk, ask for a full pic of it and look for a notch -- if it's there, it's a fake.

Chuck(G)
April 17th, 2012, 08:59 AM
It used to be that duplicator disks that had no write-enable notch were fairly easy to find. One can just as easily re-use a duplicator disk from some other product.

MikeS
April 17th, 2012, 09:02 AM
But, that wouldn't even be the hard part for someone (not you, Ole) who had counterfeiting on his mind. IIRC, all IBM system disks of this era were made without a write protect notch. So, if someone were to make a copy he'd need to find a suitable housing for it -- one without a write protect notch, before he could even dream of putting a fake lable on it. If anyone is in doubt as to the authenticity of this eBay disk, ask for a full pic of it and look for a notch -- if it's there, it's a fake.No problem; I've got a few hundred disks (DD & HD) without a notch, and a drive modified to write to them. Hadn't occurred to me how valuable they'd be to certain people... ;-)

Good tip though, Stone.

Stone
April 17th, 2012, 09:06 AM
If that modified drive of yours will support 160k SS floppies.... ferget the rest -- just PM me your phone #. :-) :-)

Shadow Lord
April 17th, 2012, 07:52 PM
I would have the friend (pick one who doesn't buy anything this guy sells) tell him that his item description is proof that he has flunked as an ebay seller and I hope he looses his listing fee with no sale and stops selling on ebay to improve the overall quality of sellers on ebay.

Sean

What fee? As far as I know eBay does not charge a fee (http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/insertion-fee.html#free)anymore to list item for the small volume sellers. Hence the ridiculously inflated starting prices. It used to be that you had to have a starting price of 0.99 to avoid the listing fee but now you can do whatever and if the item sells you pay the flat 9%. It has sent eBay to the toilet with all sort of idiotic price listings for trash.

Shadow Lord
April 17th, 2012, 08:04 PM
No problem; I've got a few hundred disks (DD & HD) without a notch, and a drive modified to write to them. Hadn't occurred to me how valuable they'd be to certain people... ;-)

Good tip though, Stone.

One of those drives would be very handy at times....

MikeS
April 17th, 2012, 09:24 PM
If that modified drive of yours will support 160k SS floppies.... ferget the rest -- just PM me your phone #. :-) :-)Actually I just realized what a big mistake I made mentioning those disks; I may have trouble unloading my 50 original PC-DOS 1.0 disks now... ;-)

Seriously, I do have a version 1.1 with manual; what's it worth these days?

Shadow Lord
April 17th, 2012, 09:49 PM
Depends how many fools are bidding ;). Realistically I've seen it go for about $50 usually. Although a last year one guy was unloading his IBM stuff and his manuals were selling for $350.... The 1.0 has gotten real high I've seen a few go for $700 in the past year.

MikeS
April 17th, 2012, 09:54 PM
Thanks for the info!

Ole Juul
April 17th, 2012, 11:37 PM
One of those drives would be very handy at times....

Just cut the wire and add a switch so it will either write to anything or not write to anything. That's very handy in may ways. When it's off you have a safety, and when on, you have the luxury of not having to peel off those little sticky tabs which are vintage items.

pearce_jj
April 18th, 2012, 12:16 AM
Does anyone have a scan on the label for the v1 disk? It would be nice to have a replica in the disk box anyway.

Ole Juul
April 18th, 2012, 12:46 AM
Does anyone have a scan on the label for the v1 disk? It would be nice to have a replica in the disk box anyway.

They're red and always very faded. There's pics on the net, but I bet you'll like this link:

http://thestarman.pcministry.com/DOS/ibm100/index.html

As for a detailed scan, I guess I could make one of 1.1 and change the decimal. :)

Arkady
April 18th, 2012, 03:15 AM
Thanks everyone for replying. As always the information is top notch.

I think i need to pass on this one.

Jimmy

You shouldn't, it's not that expensive, please have a look at this one : 221004581670

Ok... Sorry... I'm out ! ;)

Arkady
April 18th, 2012, 03:51 AM
Does anyone have a scan on the label for the v1 disk? It would be nice to have a replica in the disk box anyway.

See THERE (http://partage.mescontenus.orange.fr/n/664-533/uid/SfUJWMIMhAP5xWIZ/folder/70651889/)

Click onto the icon above "IBM_DO..." : it's a bit heavy, RAR 4Mb.

Inside the RAR file, you will find a BMP file, it's a scan of the label, big enough to let you do what you want with.

Stone
April 18th, 2012, 03:59 AM
You shouldn't, it's not that expensive, please have a look at this one : 221004581670Well, I've got a box of them and they're in even better condition -- they're still shrinkwrapped!!! I guess I'll be able to retire, soon, eh?


85548555

MikeS
April 18th, 2012, 06:54 AM
Just cut the wire and add a switch so it will either write to anything or not write to anythingWhich wire?

Shadow Lord
April 18th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Which wire?

The blue one, no the red one, no the blue one... Just kidding ;) Like the last time this issue came up I maintain my stand: every time I mess with a FDD it is fuxored for good! No cutting wires for me.... Plus, handy means to me is once in a blue moon. I have a few non-notched 5 1/4" disks that are originals which have issues. I would like to see if formatting them and writing a new image would help... Probably not as the disk has gone bad but you never know...

framer
April 18th, 2012, 08:18 AM
What's really sad is the look on someones face when they try and boot it and it doesn't work. Yep could be a label.

Get a free working copy on the net.

framer

Shadow Lord
April 18th, 2012, 09:14 AM
You shouldn't, it's not that expensive, please have a look at this one : 221004581670

Ok... Sorry... I'm out ! ;)

Yeah, but that one is for "real collectors" not just any nobody w/ $1500!

barythrin
April 18th, 2012, 09:56 AM
MikeS, you should put it on the VCGM ;-) Good attention and auction if you're not interested in it. For the OP though yes not matching means it's not really the value you'd want. Keep in mind however a lot of this is novelty for collectors. While yes, I'd love to find some 1.0 stuff (and I was one of the bidders losing that C/PM auction yesterday or so) you have to keep in mind that the disks are likely not going to work. So you have a nice original manual and labelled disk but likely you'd end up needing to find the software elsewhere to really use it. Don't get me wrong, lots of stuff works fine too, but just in case someone new is eying this, take the purchase for what it is. A collectible, possible not usable item. The other fun catch would be to end up getting it with a virus infection or something lol.

SpidersWeb
April 18th, 2012, 12:17 PM
Do 5.25" disks, even when left sealed, still retain their information these days from that era? or even be repairable (e.g. format, then put the data back)?
Just curious, because the disks being readable makes a huge difference to me, I couldn't spend $$$ on 'looking-at' disks.

I'd also wondered about slicing them open with a knife carefully and replacing the insert, but then how do you seal it back up without looking nasty :/

MikeS
April 18th, 2012, 12:30 PM
Do 5.25" disks, even when left sealed, still retain their information these days from that era? or even be repairable (e.g. format, then put the data back)?The problem is not so much losing their information, but the oxide layer flaking off (taking the info with it of course, and leaving crud on the head). Some brands were worse than others though.

MikeS
April 18th, 2012, 12:32 PM
The blue one, no the red one, no the blue one... Just kidding ;) Like the last time this issue came up I maintain my stand: every time I mess with a FDD it is fuxored for good! No cutting wires for me.... Plus, handy means to me is once in a blue moon. I have a few non-notched 5 1/4" disks that are originals which have issues. I would like to see if formatting them and writing a new image would help... Probably not as the disk has gone bad but you never know...If you know what and where it is, you can get by without cutting anything by simply putting a temporary jumper across the sensor.

Maverick1978
April 18th, 2012, 12:36 PM
Do 5.25" disks, even when left sealed, still retain their information these days from that era? or even be repairable (e.g. format, then put the data back)?
Just curious, because the disks being readable makes a huge difference to me, I couldn't spend $$$ on 'looking-at' disks.

Yes and no. Ideally yes, but just because it's new/unopened doesn't necessarily mean that the disks will work. First, remember that these things are often > 20 years old, and they are degrading sitting there in their new packaging :) In addition, poor storage conditions, of which there may no longer be any outward signs, could have killed the disks, sitting flat with the weight of the DOS manuals on them could've killed or bent the 5.25" floppies, any number of things. In my experience, 9/10 times NOS stuff will work. Just don't be overly upset that the 30 year old software you just forked out big bucks for doesn't work when you open it and discover that it's now a $500 paperweight.


I'd also wondered about slicing them open with a knife carefully and replacing the insert, but then how do you seal it back up without looking nasty :/

This is a last resort type of thing. I'd never trust a floppy that had been removed from its sheath and then reinserted and resealed. Generally, you'll only ever want to do this when you want to wash the disk to attempt data recovery. (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-02-21-retrieving-data-using-soap-and-water.htm)

SpidersWeb
April 18th, 2012, 12:49 PM
Yeah was just wondering about probability because I haven't bought any NOS software packages yet, 90% is a pretty decent percentage.

And yep I meant as a last resort but not for data recovery, more for having original disks that are usable. For example you have original disks with bad sectors, in my case Xtree Gold, you could replace the insert and give it a new life. Naturally I use backup copies of any original titles but having the original disks operating is quite important to me. Seeing something historic is great, but actually using it is epic.

Although in saying that, spending $500 on original PCDOS disks, you'd have to be brave to crack out a knife :/

Ole Juul
April 18th, 2012, 01:18 PM
Yeah, but that one is for "real collectors" not just any nobody w/ $1500!
Actually it's $1940 (dollars) but I can understand that, because it is listed as rare. I picked up an almost similar copy at the thrift store but they only charged be a buck. The only difference is that my copy wasn't rare.

@Maverick1978: Old diskettes, as Mike mentioned can have a problem with the coating. Apart from that, my personal experience is that almost all old 5-1/4" diskettes read just fine. Many (less old) 3-1/2" ones don't. The bigger format is more reliable and was superior technology in that sense.


Which wire?

Hehe, well I would hope that wouldn't pose a problem to someone smart enough to get it open. I suppose blocking the sensor or LED would work too but I just like having a switch on the front.

Jimmy
April 18th, 2012, 04:49 PM
After everybody here scared the "DoDo" out of me about buying a possibly counterfeit copy off eBay, I called my old IBM SE and asked him did he know where someone might get a legimate copy of PC Dos 1.0. He said not a problem, he got me a copy with the manual for about 1/3 of what they are asking on eBay. Now if old SE is one of you and been following this thread and just made it, I guess I outsmarted myself then.

Shadow Lord
April 18th, 2012, 06:05 PM
After everybody here scared the "DoDo" out of me about buying a possibly counterfeit copy off eBay, I called my old IBM SE and asked him did he know where someone might get a legimate copy of PC Dos 1.0. He said not a problem, he got me a copy with the manual for about 1/3 of what they are asking on eBay. Now if old SE is one of you and been following this thread and just made it, I guess I outsmarted myself then.

Your old SE wouldn't happen to have a line on a NOS/NIB 5170 would he? :D

Erik
April 18th, 2012, 06:15 PM
Most of us who got and registered DOS 1.0 when new got regular updates from IBM with new inserts to the manual. That included DOS 1.1 since 1.0 was as buggy as a bait shop. After that we had to buy new versions...

Finding DOS 1.0 with a pristine, as shipped, 1.0 manual would be impressive.

Shadow Lord
April 18th, 2012, 07:12 PM
Most of us who got and registered DOS 1.0 when new got regular updates from IBM with new inserts to the manual. That included DOS 1.1 since 1.0 was as buggy as a bait shop. After that we had to buy new versions...

Finding DOS 1.0 with a pristine, as shipped, 1.0 manual would be impressive.

I have one, and I suspect so do many others because either they did not register (so never got updates) or never bothered to incorporate the updates in their manuals!

MikeS
April 18th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by MikeS
Which wire?

Hehe, well I would hope that wouldn't pose a problem to someone smart enough to get it open. I suppose blocking the sensor or LED would work too but I just like having a switch on the front.A switch is indeed nice, but I think you've got it backwards; you don't want to cut a wire, you want to short out the sensor, and you want to simulate unblocking the LED-sensor path...

Ole Juul
April 18th, 2012, 11:23 PM
A switch is indeed nice, but I think you've got it backwards; you don't want to cut a wire, you want to short out the sensor, and you want to simulate unblocking the LED-sensor path...

Yep, I probably just put the switch wires across the sensor. It was a while ago and I just remember that it was obvious when I looked at it. (I get your question now :) ) I have the drive that I did that to, but haven't been motivated to put it in the DOS boxes I'm using now (or modify these) since I don't write nearly as many disks as I did back then - just a bit of "tweener" work now.

Jimmy
April 19th, 2012, 06:42 AM
Shodow Lord:

I want to say it because I am new here, but it's probably because I am old and not to bright but is NOS/NIB with original OS and New In Box?

I am still working on the Tower Case for you, I will get it I think, but just going to have to catch him at the right time.

Could you send me the eBay link where the one on the box sold please.

Thanks,

Jimmy

Shadow Lord
April 19th, 2012, 07:22 AM
Jimmy:

NOS: New Old Stock
NIB: New In Box

barythrin
April 19th, 2012, 09:57 AM
You're a lucky SOB. Another TLA for ya ;-) Did he get it from some repository they have? This will undoubtedly end up with a bunch of questions on whether they have more ;-) I'd love to buy one.

Jimmy
April 19th, 2012, 11:12 AM
He got it from another IBMer who from what I gathered from the conversation, picked up several from other IBMer's years ago, before they were vintage. Did IBM offer the first 5150 to all their employees first or at a discount? I am trying to remember we purchased a good number of the 5150 with 2 floppy drives back in late 1982 or early 1983 and wrote a loan calculator that printed our loan documents. We started off trying to write it in IBM Cobol but ended up writing it in compiled basic. I kept both the compilers and have the disks, slip covers and manuals. I do not remember what OS came with them, I am thinking Version 1.1.

Shadow Lord
April 20th, 2012, 12:19 PM
See THERE (http://partage.mescontenus.orange.fr/n/664-533/uid/SfUJWMIMhAP5xWIZ/folder/70651889/)

Click onto the icon above "IBM_DO..." : it's a bit heavy, RAR 4Mb.

Inside the RAR file, you will find a BMP file, it's a scan of the label, big enough to let you do what you want with.

Well, the eBay parasitism was quick! DOS 1.0 listed here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-DOS-1-0-Revised-January-1982-EXTREMELY-RARE-/251044937567?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7371bf5f) and lo and behold it suddenly comes with a "high quality" label for you to print out and stick on the disk you bought. BTW this is a NR auction w/ a low starting price of $1250.

Ole Juul
April 20th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Anybody that cares probably already has a digital copy, but I couldn't help but notice.

Files on Disk are Readable Using DOS DIR Command
. . . Sold - As-Is

Caluser2000
April 20th, 2012, 12:43 PM
That's EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY RARE !!! So must be rarer than the rare one.

Shadow Lord
April 20th, 2012, 06:57 PM
Anybody that cares probably already has a digital copy, but I couldn't help but notice.

Its almost as if the seller read this thread and then tried to address each comment here (label, readable disk, difference between 1.0 and 1.0 revised) etc. in his ad.

Ole Juul
April 20th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Its almost as if the seller read this thread and then tried to address each comment here (label, readable disk, difference between 1.0 and 1.0 revised) etc. in his ad.

I agree, and it would probably be a smart thing to do too. Anyway, I like to think that we're an influential group. :p

Shadow Lord
April 20th, 2012, 08:04 PM
I agree, and it would probably be a smart thing to do too. Anyway, I like to think that we're an influential group. :p

Yeah, I am okay with that too except that they always miss the most important part: how ridiculous the starting prices/BIN prices are! Now if they would address that point to we would be set ;)