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DumbQuestionDuJour
June 6th, 2012, 05:31 PM
Hi, everyone.

I just acquired a 5150 that has a 5161 expansion unit, along with a keyboard and a (5151) monitor. It came with power cords and the cable that hooks the expansion unit to the PC and also two floppy disks, one of which is a boot disk (says Intellicon PC-MOS/386 Version 1.05/1.04, PC-DOS Version 1.05/1.04 Disk 1 of 1, (c) 1987-1989 Connect Tech Inc. (The other floppy says Intellicon, QNX Version 2.01/2.01 (and someone crossed out the numbers and wrote 2.10c)).

The various components were in their original boxes, but no documentation. The boxes don't seem to have much helpful info on them.

Much as I'd love to relive the good old days and fiddle with it for a while, unfortunately my husband lacks any sense of computer nostalgia and would like it off of the floor of his office sooner rather than later. Like "yesterday" wouldn't be soon enough for him. So I'm trying to figure out as much info as possible about it with an eye toward selling it and representing it properly.

I booted it up before hooking up the expansion unit, and it boots just fine, says "The IBM Personal Computer Basic Version C1.10, copyright IBM Corp 1981, 62940 bytes free. I assume that means it's got 64K of RAM.

I hooked it up to the expansion unit, rebooted, then turned the expansion unit on after it booted. Nothing seemed to happen. How can I tell if the expansion unit is working? And how can I tell the specs of the various things that people will want to know about it?

Any help greatly appreciated by both me and my floor-less husband.

Thanks.

Chuck(G)
June 6th, 2012, 05:53 PM
Hi DQdJ,

It all depends upon what's in the expansion unit--by itself (un-populated with cards), it doesn't do anything. A photo of the rear of both units might give us a hint without having to open up either.

There's generally a fair demand for them, as the original 5150 had only 5 expansion slots and an anemic power supply, so it's a period piece for the hard-bitten IBM-er. When the 5160 came out, two things happened. First, the 5160 had 8 slots, not 5 and second, "multi" cards serving more than one purpose were plentiful. So the need for extra slots dropped off pretty rapidly.

What's puzzling is the QNX and PC-MOS/386 disks, which are intended for a much later system. I wonder if there's some sort of 80386 accelerator card in those boxes.

Hope this helps!

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 6th, 2012, 06:25 PM
Thank you, Chuck(G). Here's a picture of the back of the two machines; there aren't any cards in the expansion unit besides the one that connects to the PC. There is one expansion slot cover missing, as though someone might have removed a card.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/651/51505161backs.jpg/

Chuck(G)
June 6th, 2012, 06:36 PM
How strange to have an expansion unit with nothing in it!

I'm trying to avoid asking you to open the unit up, as it looks to be a real bear of a job. On the front of the unit, is there anything that looks like it might be a disk drive (floppy or hard)? Sometimes these were used for nothing more than a hard disk expansion.

bettablue
June 6th, 2012, 06:47 PM
Nice find! And here, I had to beg borrow and almost steal to get mine. Now that's is almost done these things (expansion units that is) are popping up all over the place.

Congratulations.

~BB~

marcoguy
June 6th, 2012, 06:49 PM
I figured you'd poke your nose in this thread sometime :P I'm really trying to get that 5161. If it ends up on Ebay, I will probably go for it.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 6th, 2012, 06:50 PM
Looks like maybe a hard drive in the right bay of the expansion unit?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/51505161front.jpg/

marcoguy
June 6th, 2012, 06:51 PM
Yep. That's probably a Seagate ST-412 hard drive.

modem7
June 6th, 2012, 06:52 PM
I hooked it up to the expansion unit, rebooted, then turned the expansion unit on after it booted. Nothing seemed to happen. How can I tell if the expansion unit is working?
Note that the 5161 needs to be powered on before the 5150 is powered on, but since there are no cards in the 5161, it won't accomplish much.


I booted it up before hooking up the expansion unit, and it boots just fine, says "The IBM Personal Computer Basic Version C1.10, copyright IBM Corp 1981, 62940 bytes free. I assume that means it's got 64K of RAM.
No, the 64K is simply how much RAM that BASIC is using. But you can determine the total amount of (conventional) RAM that there is via BASIC. Enter the following two lines in BASIC:
def seg = &h40
print peek(20)*256 + peek(19)
The figure then displayed is the total amount of (conventional) RAM in KB. There is a bug in the 5150 which means that in some circumstances the amount shown will be wrong, but if the figure shown is 256K or above, then you can be very certain about the amount shown.
Also, your 5150 may have a memory card that provides additional RAM in the form of expanded memory.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 6th, 2012, 07:02 PM
Note that the 5161 needs to be powered on before the 5150 is powered on, but since there are no cards in the 5161, it won't accomplish much.


Thank you. Somehow that's counterintuitive to me, so I appreciate the info. Do I need to leave it on for a minute or two before powering on the 5150?

I'll check out the RAM tomorrow AM when I have a bit more time.

modem7
June 6th, 2012, 07:12 PM
Thank you. Somehow that's counterintuitive to me, so I appreciate the info. Do I need to leave it on for a minute or two before powering on the 5150?
You should be able to get away with powering them on at roughtly the same time, but because bettablue has a 5161, he's probably better qualified to comment.

bettablue
June 6th, 2012, 07:36 PM
You should be able to get away with powering them on at roughtly the same time, but because bettablue has a 5161, he's probably better qualified to comment.


I find it i little odd that the 5150 will boot without the 5161 powered on, or attached. Everything I have read seems to indicate that the 5161 HAS to be powered on before the PC. In mie, the expansion needs to be powered on about 5 to 10 seconds before the PC That makes me also wonder if the extender card is working properly.

(Spelling corrected. Problems with eyesight.)

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

modem7
June 6th, 2012, 08:01 PM
I find it i little odd that the 5150 will boot without the 5161 powered on, or attached. Everything I have read seems to indicate that the 5161 HAS to be powered on before the PC. In minw, the wxpansion needs to be powered on about 5 to 10 seconds before the PC That maked me also wonder of the extender card ir working properly.
I expect that one can power on the 5161 after the 5150, but it would have to be done within a certain time period.

I expect that the 5160 will need to be on during the 5150's Power On Self Test (POST), but at a minimum, the first element of the POST that involves the 5161.

Refer to http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5150/misc/5150_post_and_initialisation.htm
In the web page referred to, at item 15, is a check of communications with the 5161. So the 5161 will need to be on at at least item 15. How long that is after 5150 power on is going to depend on how much conventional RAM there is (because of the varying time for item 10 to run).

In a particular situation, the 5161 will need to be on even before item 15. This will be because of item 10 (zero RAM past 64K). For example, 256KB conventional RAM on the 5150 motherboard and additional conventional RAM fitted on a card in the 5161. For the conventional RAM in the 5161 to be zeroed, the 5161 would need to be be on at the time that item 10 has finished zeroing the the first 256K of RAM (what is on the 5150 motherboard).


Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Because of item 15, I would expect that a 5150 will display an "1801" error if the 5161 is unpowered. Does your 5150 do that?

Chuck(G)
June 6th, 2012, 08:43 PM
My usual stupid question: Why isn't the power on these things coupled together such that the 5150/5160 BRS turns on both units? It would seem to be pretty simple to use a M-F IEC power cord to couple them together. I suppose you could daisy-chain your monitor power from the 5161.

modem7
June 6th, 2012, 09:05 PM
My usual stupid question: Why isn't the power on these things coupled together such that the 5150/5160 BRS turns on both units? It would seem to be pretty simple to use a M-F IEC power cord to couple them together. I suppose you could daisy-chain your monitor power from the 5161.
The resulting 2 seconds long power brownout usually causes one's neighbours to complain. :)

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 03:05 AM
def seg = &h40
print peek(20)*256 + peek(19)
The figure then displayed is the total amount of (conventional) RAM in KB. There is a bug in the 5150 which means that in some circumstances the amount shown will be wrong, but if the figure shown is 256K or above, then you can be very certain about the amount shown.


512 K, apparently. That was with the expansion unit off.

It took two tries to boot this AM. It always pops up with the number 1801 when it's first turned on, then the drive spins, then normally it comes up to the "OK" prompt. This AM the disk kept spinning and the OK prompt didn't come up, just green blips quickly cycling down the screen. I turned it off, reinserted the boot disk and turned it on again and it booted normally. My mostly uneducated gut would say that maybe the boot disk is starting to show its age.

I also booted it this AM with the 5161 turned on. The hard drive light on the expansion unit came on a minute or two after I turned on the 5150, then the screen showed 1701, then the OK prompt. For kicks I did the command that Modem7 was kind enough to provide, and it still came back with 512K of ram. Probably not surprising given that there are no cards in it (assuming that additional RAM might be on a card?). Anyway, is there any way of finding out whether the hard drive is functional and/or contains any state secrets?

Stone
June 7th, 2012, 03:38 AM
The 1701 error is a fixed disk drive not ready error and that's probably because the expansion unit, as previously noted, doesn't seem to have a HD controller.

The 1801 is an I/O Expansion unit POST error.

modem7
June 7th, 2012, 03:50 AM
512 K, apparently. That was with the expansion unit off.
With 512K showing, the likely RAM configuration in your 5150 is 256K on the motherboard and 256K on an expansion card.


It took two tries to boot this AM. It always pops up with the number 1801 when it's first turned on,
An 1801 error basically translates to "the 5150 is having trouble communicating with the 5161". If you are seeing 1801 when the 5161 is off, but not when the 5161 is on, then I expect that.


then the drive spins, then normally it comes up to the "OK" prompt.
The boot sequence is normally:
1. If there is a boot floppy in A:, then boot from that, else
2. If there is a hard drive, then boot from that, else
3. Boot to BASIC (gives the "OK" prompt).


This AM the disk kept spinning and the OK prompt didn't come up, just green blips quickly cycling down the screen. I turned it off, reinserted the boot disk and turned it on again and it booted normally. My mostly uneducated gut would say that maybe the boot disk is starting to show its age.
Not sure what happened there. Maybe it was a hiccup.


I also booted it this AM with the 5161 turned on. The hard drive light on the expansion unit came on a minute or two after I turned on the 5150, then the screen showed 1701, then the OK prompt.
A 1701 error is produced by the ROM in an XT class hard disk controller card when the card is having problems with a hard drive. Because you only see the 1701 when the 5161 is powered on, you must have a hard drive controller card in the 5161.

A photo of the insides of both the 5150 and 5161 would be good at this time. You probably need to do that anyway to help sell the two units later.

Stone
June 7th, 2012, 04:08 AM
A 1701 error is produced by the ROM in an XT class hard disk controller card when the card is having problems with a hard drive. Because you only see the 1701 when the 5161 is powered on, you must have a hard drive controller card in the 5161.You're likely right, again, on this one. DQDJ stated there were no cards in the unit other than the extender but that was without actually opening the case. And, yes, HD controllers and slot covers look confusingly similar from the back of the case. My money's with you, again. :-)

bettablue
June 7th, 2012, 08:24 AM
Because of item 15, I would expect that a 5150 will display an "1801" error if the 5161 is unpowered. Does your 5150 do that?

Yes. Whenever my PC is booted with the 5161 turned off, the PC generates an error 1801. I wanted to verify that the expansion unit needed to be powered on, or present during the boot cycle. I tried various boot floppies and get the same error regardless if the expansion is either disconneced or powered off, however, when the extender card is removed, or the 5161 is powered on when connected, the machine/s boot as expected. No error.

So again, I have to question the extender card. Is it possible that the BIOS has been configured in such a way that it WILL boot from floppy on this particular system with the 5161 disconnected or powered off? I read somewhere in IBM's documentation that states that the eu needs to be connected AND powered on prior to booting the PC, or the PC will display error 1801. I don't recall if IBM's documentation gave a time frame though. (Sorry, I don't remember which document) And, in another post here in the forums, a user was told the same thing. He HAD to have the eu powered on for approximately 10 or more seconds before powering on the PC. The explanation was that the eu need time for any hard disks to spin up before they were accessed. In my own system, that is about right. Although, I find that 15 seconds gives a bit more time for the old drives to get up to speed and therefore boot more reliably.

bettablue
June 7th, 2012, 08:49 AM
I figured you'd poke your nose in this thread sometime :P I'm really trying to get that 5161. If it ends up on Ebay, I will probably go for it.

Marco; I really hope you do get one. In fact, I like hearing that more of these are coming out of the closet so to speak. That means there are more of them out there that need to be found. And, the more we can find and refurbish, the more we can save for the future.

But that still begs the question: how many of these were actually purchased?

MikeS
June 7th, 2012, 09:06 AM
The resulting 2 seconds long power brownout usually causes one's neighbours to complain. :):rofl:
Especially when there are two FH HDs in the 5161...

MikeS
June 7th, 2012, 09:09 AM
...My money's with you, again. :-)Usually a safe bet...

Time to open up those cases so we know what we're actually talking about.

MikeS
June 7th, 2012, 09:13 AM
...So again, I have to question the extender card. Is it possible that the BIOS has been configured in such a way that it WILL boot from floppy on this particular system with the 5161 disconnected or powered off? I don't follow; sounds like everything's as it should be regarding the 5161 connection, but I don't think the combo has actually 'booted' anything yet other than ROM BASIC.

Just sounds like a bad HD, cable or controller and a bad or non-bootable FDD/diskette.

bettablue
June 7th, 2012, 09:19 AM
I just now received a PDF document from IBM. It is the Product Announcement for the IMB 5161 expansion units (Both models) and labeled as follows:

Product Announcement March 8 1983

IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit 5161 Model 1
IBM Personal Computer XT
Expansion Unit 5161-2

The PDF I was sent is really nothing more than an image though, so the text can't be extracted directly. I tried, but either I don't have the correct software, or the text in the PDF is just an copy of the original document. Unfortunately, it also looks like the forums won't allow me to attach the file to a post. Also, I don't have any way of scanning this with OCR to extract the text.

Please send me a PM and I'll email the file.

Personally, I think this would be a good document to add to modem7's site too.

MikeS
June 7th, 2012, 09:27 AM
If she powers up with the 5161 turned off, she gets an 1801 error; with it turned on, she gets a 1701 error and it goes into BASIC. Sounds pretty straightforward.

Stone
June 7th, 2012, 09:31 AM
if you rename the PDF to something the forum accepts, i.e., ZIP or JPG you can easily fool this bad-boy software. :-)

per
June 7th, 2012, 09:40 AM
if you rename the PDF to something the forum accepts, i.e., ZIP or JPG you can easily fool this bad-boy software. :-)

...but not the file-size limit for uploads.

Perhaps something like http://www.2shared.com/ would work?

bettablue
June 7th, 2012, 09:48 AM
if you rename the PDF to something the forum accepts, i.e., ZIP or JPG you can easily fool this bad-boy software. :-)

Can't seem to add any files at all. I keep getting a red indicator next to the file name. :-|

per
June 7th, 2012, 10:34 AM
Can't seem to add any files at all. I keep getting a red indicator next to the file name. :-|

The maximum upload limit for the forums is about 100kb per file, slightly depending on what kind of file. Those PDF files are problably way bigger than 100kb. I typically use the site I mentioned above when temporary uploading bigger files to the internet.

Chuck(G)
June 7th, 2012, 10:46 AM
Isn't there already 5161 documentation (including schematics) in the 5160 Techref (should be on Modem7's site)?

bettablue
June 7th, 2012, 10:50 AM
I just sent a copy of the PDF over to Marcoguy. What's funny is that I can't see anything that would keep me from adding the file. I even zipped the file to reduce file size, and renamed it to get rid of the extremely long file name etc...

Maybe Marcoguy will have better luck posting it thatn I.

bettablue
June 7th, 2012, 11:02 AM
The maximum upload limit for the forums is about 100kb per file, slightly depending on what kind of file. Those PDF files are problably way bigger than 100kb. I typically use the site I mentioned above when temporary uploading bigger files to the internet.

That's it then. Yeah, the PDF is 609K.

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 11:49 AM
I uploaded the file to Rapidshare. Here's a link.
https://rapidshare.com/files/4014458385/ProductAnnouncement_183-28_IBM_5161_PC_Expansion_Unit.PDF

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 12:07 PM
Apologies for the absence (internet died). Just to clarify a bit, here's the current state of affairs.

If I turn on the 5150 only, it boots to Basic, so I guess that the boot disk is no good.

Last night when I was turning on the expansion unit first and then the PC, I wasn't removing the (apparently un-) bootable floppy (d'oh). I have since removed it, and it now boots up off of the EU hard drive first to a Dos 3.1 but then to a Procomm screen that looks like this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/5150procommscreen.jpg/

If I then press any key to continue, it just hangs. My uneducated guess would be that it's looking for some piece of hardware (a modem?) that's no longer there (maybe it used to be behind the missing expansion slot cover?) or possibly there but not working.


ETA: After an earlier unsuccessful try, I was just able to get it to boot to the C prompt by interrupting it while the autoexec.bat file was running. :)

Shadow Lord
June 7th, 2012, 12:10 PM
It looks like the only difference between the 5161-1 and 5161-2 is if a fixed disk adapter was included or not. I assumed they were essentially the same and I don't think that the -1/-2 designation ever officially made it into the model name. At least all the 5161s I have ever seen have just been 5161 with no dashes.

MikeS
June 7th, 2012, 12:25 PM
My uneducated guess would be that it's looking for some piece of hardware (a modem?) that's no longer there (maybe it used to be behind the missing expansion slot cover?) or possibly there but not working An excellent guess in my opinion.

Congratulations!!! Sounds like you got it working in spite of all the usual helpful (!) comments and suggestions, not a mean feat by any means! ;-)

Unless you changed something or wiggled some cards/cables/connectors you might see that 1701 hard disk error again though...

So, where do you want to go from here?

SpidersWeb
June 7th, 2012, 12:27 PM
Congratulations to the original poster. That is awesome :)
I'd figured there would be some problem, like needing a low level format, but it booting up immediately is an epic result. If only you were in NZ, I'd be bidding all over that thing!

Edit: as for the hang, I noticed that when I removed COM1 but left COM2 installed I would hardware lock some programs (because they'd expect to find a COM1), so I wouldn't be suprised if you're correct and it's just missing it's modem.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 12:59 PM
Thanks! No state secrets on the hard drive; just a few directories besides the DOS directory: \UTIL (has either a nu.exe or .com -- is that some ancient version of Norton?), \PCPlus, \PCPay, and \RR. It's been sort of fun exploring it and remembering various stuff about the DOS of that era, which is slowly coming back.

I'm not sure whether to open the case or not; I don't want to risk damaging it, but it would probably be helpful to have a picture of the guts or to at least have a bit more info. I'll probably list it within the next day or two so that my husband can have his office back.

SpidersWeb
June 7th, 2012, 01:22 PM
Yes, "nu" will no doubt be Norton Utilities :)

You wont damage it just by removing the case, taking a few photos and popping the case back on. On the back you remove the flathead screws holding the lid in place, then just slide the top of the case forward. Nothing fancy. The more 'goodies' that are visible the higher the sale price will be.

To set up the autoexec file a bit nicer:

C> COPY CON: C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT
@ECHO OFF
PROMPT $P$G
PATH=C:\DOS
VER
(then on a new line press CTRL and Z)

It'll replace the current autoexec with a normal/boring DOS startup.

Oh and before you send it or move it, you are supposed to park the drive. Look for something like PARK.COM in C:\DOS.

Stone
June 7th, 2012, 01:26 PM
You might want to edit the autoexec.bat file to remove the Procomm call. Then you should (might) have a clean, successful boot sequence.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 03:43 PM
Thanks, everyone. I redid the autoexec.bat file per the suggestions here, though kept the path both to \DOS and to the root as well, since that was how the existing file had the path, and how I set similar systems up years ago. I remember that stuff pretty well but I had completely forgotten how to end the file ( ^Z ). Funny what sticks with you and what leaves after 25 years! I did take the cover off of the EU and photographed the inside; I'll post pictures later but it will have to wait until hungry family isn't hungry anymore. I actually worked for a software company back in the late 80's - early 90's, and though I mostly did software support, I also did a bit of simple hardware stuff -- arcnet cards and modems mostly -- so it's familiar, just a bit rusty. And I do remember finding the occasional stubborn case that didn't want to fit back on very well after removal, and was hoping that that didn't happen here. Fortunately it didn't. I reassembled it and it's still booting fine.

Oh -- and I had also completely forgotten about parking the drive, though I don't see any park.* program anywhere. Is it hidden or something?

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 03:51 PM
I don't believe that there is a disk parking utility built in to DOS. There is one on the IBM diagnostic disk, IIRC.

modem7
June 7th, 2012, 04:11 PM
A head parking program is available at
http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/software/PARK.zip

modem7
June 7th, 2012, 04:13 PM
I just now received a PDF document from IBM. It is the Product Announcement for the IMB 5161 expansion units (Both models)

Personally, I think this would be a good document to add to modem7's site too.
Done. I've added an 'IBM 5161 - Documentation' link to my web site: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 04:13 PM
Here's another disk parking utility from my site's archive:
http://win31.yolasite.com/resources/diskpark.zip

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 05:48 PM
Pictures of the innards. Not sure that they provide any further insights, but in case anyone is interested:

1) View of the whole thing from above. Sorry so blurry.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/5161inside1.jpg/

2) View of the two boards.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/5161inside2.jpg/


3) The hard drive from the side:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/5161inside5.jpg/

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Did I mention I want to buy it more than anything? :D

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 06:03 PM
LOL -- I love the ringing endorsement. I'll probably be listing it tomorrow for a 10-day stint. I just don't know what to ask for it, so I'll let the free-market forces do their work.

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 06:08 PM
I just hope to God it doesn't skyrocket out of my price range.

SpidersWeb
June 7th, 2012, 06:08 PM
Should fetch a decent amount - being so complete and operating.
You'll want pics inside the 5150 itself as well (just to see what cards are installed).
Did you type 'mem' and find out how much memory you had in there?

Edit: fingers crossed for you marcoguy :D

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 06:09 PM
Are you going to list them separately?

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Marcoguy, yes, if that would be of more interest to you, I'm happy to list them separately, with the 5150, monitor and keyboard as one lot, and the 5161 (and accompanying cable) as its own listing. I'm assuming that that would be your preference since you already have a 5150? If not, let me know and I'll list them all as one.

Spidersweb, "mem" gave me a "Bad command or filename" error, but I ran chkdsk and the hard drive is 10mb with 2.7mb free, and it says 524288 bytes total memory. Some lost clusters, but I didn't run the /f parameter.

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 06:34 PM
Yes, it would be. Thanks so much! I have a 5160 that I want to hook it up to.

Shadow Lord
June 7th, 2012, 06:53 PM
Two suggestions for your listing:

1. If you are including the cable w/ the 5161 unit then make sure to include the transmitter card from the 5150 with it.
2. If you want to maximize your money I would list separately as such:
a. 5151 Monitor (these working in original box fetch a decent amount on their own)
b. 5160 w/ keyboard (again in original box might do okay)
c. Transmitter Card/Receiver Card/Cable (alot of people have the unit and have their own PCs but not these - specially the cable)
d. 5161 (w/ the HDD controller/drive cable/and HDD of course)


The 10 day format in IMHO is just a waste of money. The people who want these guys will know the first day they you post them and the ferocious bidding will happen the last day. A long bidding period really doesn't gain you anything, but YMMV!

If you had posted a week earlier I'd be hitting you hard for the cable myself, but thanks to some good fortune and the helpful guys on this forum I got a cable already.

I'd also be ready/plan to double box these for shipping. Whoever buys them is going to want to get them safe and sound w/ the original boxes as undamaged as possible. Remember, you are not shipping a $0.50 Chinese made iPad case. This is 30 year old tech that is very hard to replace. Good luck with your auctions!

SpidersWeb
June 7th, 2012, 06:53 PM
If you sell them seperately, you need to remove the card from the 5150 which the 5161 connects to. It is not a standard PC card. The expansion unit is useless without that card.

524288 bytes = 512KB memory

Ole Juul
June 7th, 2012, 06:53 PM
I'm happy to list them separately, with the 5150, monitor and keyboard as one lot, and the 5161 (and accompanying cable) as its own listing.

If you do that, make sure you include the transmitter card from the 5150 with the 5161, otherwise the 5161 will be useless and it's not easy to find such a card. Personally, I think it would be better to keep the whole system together - but that's just me. :)


Spidersweb, "mem" gave me a "Bad command or filename" error, but I ran chkdsk and the hard drive is 10mb with 2.7mb free, and it says 524288 bytes total memory. Some lost clusters, but I didn't run the /f parameter.
I don't think the state of the format is important since it needs to be redone anyway. That's regular maintenance for these old drives.

SpidersWeb
June 7th, 2012, 06:55 PM
yus! I got in first with the 'remove card' advice :P
do I win a prize?

mbbrutman
June 7th, 2012, 07:02 PM
It's probably worth more as a package with the 5150. I wouldn't do anything else to touch it - you have demonstrated that it works and the two halves have always been together.

Chuck(G)
June 7th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Second that, Mike. As a pair operating together, it's a lot more convincing that answering endless questions about the 5161 to the effect of "How do you know it works?"

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 07:12 PM
If i was you, I would have the 5150 w/ the monitor/kb in one auction and the 5161 with the extender/receiver cards in another. You could state in the auction for the 5161 that you are willing to sell the cards individually. Hell, you could even sell the HD from the 5161 in a separate auction since it's an ST-412 and those go pretty high individually.

SpidersWeb
June 7th, 2012, 07:16 PM
Part of me likes the idea of it being seperate so that marco can get his wish and I do think you'd get more $$ if you split.... but I am a fan of keeping it together as complete system (from a historical perspective). My own machines are 'mix and match' - the idea of having a complete system original like that would be quite awesome and the more which get split up the harder it is to achieve.

What are ST412's worth these days? I got given one for free, and installed DOS on it last week, just curious (you'd need to stab me for me to part with it).

Shadow Lord
June 7th, 2012, 07:18 PM
While a complete package is nice and ideal for us the OP will benefit financially from the separation. If someone, who has a 5150, want the 5161 they are willing to pay X amount of dollars. They are not suddenly going to pay Y dollars to get a system they don't want/need and have to sell later. The OP can post that she is parting out a complete system in her eBay listing and the system has been tested all together and works. Of course this is more hassle and head ache so it all depends on OPs initial goal.

I personally think she should tell her hubby to shove it, get a nice retro desk and pluck the whole thing down on it! ;) But thats me. I love messing with the old machines. She may not have the same "love".

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 07:22 PM
Hmmmm.... Thanks. That does make sense, and it's definitely food for thought. And the card thing hadn't occurred to me.

The only reason I was thinking of a 10-day auction is that I normally list from home, then immediately move things to a location away from home to declutter. If I list tomorrow, Friday auctions really aren't particularly terrific but that way I get the stuff out of here for the weekend. I'd prefer an auction end on a Monday rather than a Friday. And I'm really not a fan of 3-day auctions. The 10-day auction only costs $0.40, which is a small price to pay for family harmony. LOL.

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 07:22 PM
I think that there may be more people in my boat who just need a 5161 than who want a complete system or just cards. You'll probably make more money if you separate them.

mbbrutman
June 7th, 2012, 07:22 PM
While a complete package is nice and ideal for us the OP will benefit financially from the separation. If someone, who has a 5150, want the 5161 they are willing to pay X amount of dollars. They are not suddenly going to pay Y dollars to get a system they don't want/need and have to sell later. The OP can post that she is parting out a complete system in her eBay listing and the system has been tested all together and works. Of course this is more hassle and head ache so it all depends on OPs initial goal.

I personally think she should tell her hubby to shove it, get a nice retro desk and pluck the whole thing down on it! ;) But thats me. I love messing with the old machines. She may not have the same "love".


I really think that this is a case where the sum is worth more than the parts. It's a complete working unit.

Somebody with the money to purchase a 5161 isn't going to be upset at having to purchase a 5150 with it. You can always use spares. I know it won't be bothering me if I bid. ;-0

It's a beautiful machine, and relatively uncommon. It's going to command a premium.


Mike

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Oh, and I can't even begin to picture the box-inside-a-box thing. The boxes are so big already I don't think I could find boxes large or sturdy enough to double-box. They do all have the original packing materials in their respective boxes (molded styrofoam for the monitor and keyboard, though the monitor styrofoam has broken a bit; spongy foam for the computer units).

modem7
June 7th, 2012, 07:31 PM
Pictures of the innards. Not sure that they provide any further insights, but in case anyone is interested:
The hard drive controller is the 'variation #1' card described at http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/ibm_xebec/ibm_xebec.htm

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 7th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Part of me likes the idea of it being seperate so that marco can get his wish and I do think you'd get more $$ if you split.... but I am a fan of keeping it together as complete system (from a historical perspective)..

Yeah, I would really like to accommodate some of the helpful folks on this board, which is why I was willing to do it separately. But I do completely get the historical perspective as well. The boxes even still have the (RIP) "ComputerLand" stickers on them, which is sort of cool as well. And a (RIP also) TWA Cargo sticker, too. A couple of "Remember when's?" just on the box. :)

And much as it has been fun to toy with a bit -- lol less frustrating, even, than my current machines (gotta love a computer that predates viruses and malware...), don't shoot me, but I simply don't have enough appreciation to have any desire to keep it. I completely lucked into this one, and am only fortunate that I followed my gut that it was something that had value and that didn't belong in a trash heap somewhere. I'd much rather convert it to cash and have a bit of mad money to spend with the family this summer.

Shadow Lord
June 7th, 2012, 07:39 PM
Oh, and I can't even begin to picture the box-inside-a-box thing. The boxes are so big already I don't think I could find boxes large or sturdy enough to double-box. They do all have the original packing materials in their respective boxes (molded styrofoam for the monitor and keyboard, though the monitor styrofoam has broken a bit; spongy foam for the computer units).

I got all of my boxed units boxed in another box. So it is definitely possible! ;D The box itself is rare and will increase the price on the units. Trust me you want to find boxes....

marcoguy
June 7th, 2012, 07:41 PM
Awww crap. There's no way I'm going to be able to afford this!

Shadow Lord
June 7th, 2012, 11:11 PM
Awww crap. There's no way I'm going to be able to afford this!

Never say never ;).

modem7
June 7th, 2012, 11:59 PM
Never say never ;).
That is correct. One has to be optimistic.
Here is what I keep telling myself when I think about certain items coming up on eBay:

"I can afford it if I win the lottery before auction end."

"Maybe due to some quirky eBay problem, I'll be the only one who sees the listing."

"Maybe the seller will accidentally list the item in a category that hardly anyone ever visits: Nuclear waste disposal services"

"Maybe after auction end, the seller will accidentally address the item to me."

"Maybe the top ten highest bidders will drop dead just before auction end, thus failing to pay and leaving me as the eleventh highest bidder to win."

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 02:43 AM
Trust me you want to find boxes....

Geez, it must have been huge and ridiculously heavy. The three main boxes, stacked on top of each other, are about 4' tall and of course all of the stuff is quite heavy (I was really shocked at the weight of the keyboard, even); if the point of the extra boxing is to add protection, more packing material will just make it taller / bigger. I would think that no extra packing material would just mean one large box that would be more likely to wind up mishandled somewhere.

I'm in a rural area (to my knowledge, I can't even buy an anti-static bag around here if I wind up pulling the card from the 5150; I'm guessing that the couple I have on hand from old modems or network cards would be too small), so there's no shipping store in the (non-existent) mall down the street, though we do have UPS and FedEx in the area. Which shipping service shipped yours?

marcoguy
June 8th, 2012, 06:09 AM
I remember a thread a little while back about someone who got a 5150 with the monitor and KB. It shipped UPS and came to them completely totaled. Now there's one less 5153 monitor in the world. (The others were repaired)

Shadow Lord
June 8th, 2012, 10:09 AM
Geez, it must have been huge and ridiculously heavy.

The systems are already huge and heavy. The 2-3 pounds added by a box and some packing styrofoam/peanuts is hardly going to make it ridiculous. Let me put it this way if you insisted on shipping in the original box I wouldn't buy form you. Others will, but if you want the premium money for selling a rare item in a box then you need to deal with it. Honestly, if you have a UPS store close by in another town they can pack it for you professionally if you really are adverse to doing it yourself and ship it.



I'm in a rural area (to my knowledge, I can't even buy an anti-static bag around here if I wind up pulling the card from the 5150; I'm guessing that the couple I have on hand from old modems or network cards would be too small), so there's no shipping store in the (non-existent) mall down the street, though we do have UPS and FedEx in the area. Which shipping service shipped yours?

I've gotten them through UPS, USPS, and FedEx. Ask around here and you can find horror stories with each carrier. No one carrier is perfect. I've had the best success w/ USPS and UPS. If the package is too heavy (over 70lbs) or too big USPS won't take it. FedEx has been the worst for me. They did a horrible job w/ my 5162 delivery and although insurance covered it - its not the same. So better packing is always a wise choice!

Shadow Lord
June 8th, 2012, 10:14 AM
That is correct. One has to be optimistic.
Here is what I keep telling myself when I think about certain items coming up on eBay:

[I]"I can afford it if I win the lottery before auction end."


Yeah i wished for that on a NeXT auction. Although when it sold for almost 10K I don't think even the lottery would have helped.



"Maybe due to some quirky eBay problem, I'll be the only one who sees the listing."


Has happened to me.


"Maybe the seller will accidentally list the item in a category that hardly anyone ever visits: Nuclear waste disposal services"


Has Happened to me.


"Maybe after auction end, the seller will accidentally address the item to me."

Thats just dishonest ;)



"Maybe the top ten highest bidders will drop dead just before auction end, thus failing to pay and leaving me as the eleventh highest bidder to win."


Won't help. At least it never has me. The sellers want to always sell it to you at your highest bid price. I think if a buyer is a non-payer then his bids should be canceled and your bid should be lowered to the actual real winning amount. Of course eBay and the sellers don't see it that way so I always end up passing on it.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 12:18 PM
The systems are already huge and heavy. The 2-3 pounds added by a box and some packing styrofoam/peanuts is hardly going to make it ridiculous....

I'm thinking more of the size than the weight. I can't really envision how the suggestion of putting them all in one box would work unless it was a wooden shipping crate.


Honestly, if you have a UPS store close by in another town they can pack it for you professionally if you really are adverse to doing it yourself and ship it.


The closest UPS store is a 100-mile round trip (no joke!) but I'll look into it.

ETA: Intellectually, I know you're completely right. But logistically, you're giving me nightmares! I'm almost thinking of just plunking it onto Craigslist with a high price and see if anyone wants to come to me. It would surely make my life a lot simpler.

Stone
June 8th, 2012, 12:28 PM
You haven't told us where this ton of equipment is located, have you? :-) You just might find a local buyer.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 12:38 PM
Northern New England.

Stone
June 8th, 2012, 01:05 PM
I'm sure you just piqued marcoguy's interest to the boiling point!!! :-)

Shadow Lord
June 8th, 2012, 01:21 PM
I'm thinking more of the size than the weight. I can't really envision how the suggestion of putting them all in one box would work unless it was a wooden shipping crate.

I think we are having a misunderstanding. I was suggesting you double box each item separately. I.e. take the 5150 box and put it in another box, 5151 in another box etc. Not that you should ship the whole set in one huge freight. Hope that allays some of your nightmares.... ;)

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 01:22 PM
So I just called the closest UPS store. OEM box size is 24x24x12 1/2". The largest box they sell (at that store?) is 25.75 x 25.75 x 25.75 (scored so that you can make it shorter). It's considered oversized. They charge $17 for the box, and he said that depending on destination shipping for it would run $80/box or so if it wasn't oversized (meaning short enough not to be). Based on the UPS website, $80 would only be if it were heading cross-country; otherwise it would run about $30/box within our zone, and increase from there. With three boxes (the monitor being a bit lighter), shipping will wind up being $80-$200 if I go with UPS and do separate boxes. It actually winds up being more expensive to ship both larger units in one box ($175 to stay within the zone rather than $60 for two boxes) due to the oversize issue. Strange but true.

marcoguy
June 8th, 2012, 01:25 PM
I'm sure you just piqued marcoguy's interest to the boiling point!!! :-)

Yep, pretty much. Anyway, where are you in New Hampshire?

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 01:26 PM
I think we are having a misunderstanding. I was suggesting you double box each item separately. I.e. take the 5150 box and put it in another box, 5151 in another box etc. Not that you should ship the whole set in one huge freight. Hope that allays some of your nightmares.... ;)

Thanks, yes, I had misunderstood; I thought you had received them all in one box.

The shipping issue is tilting me toward selling it in pieces, though, unless I find a more feasible option.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 01:29 PM
Northern half of the state.

marcoguy
June 8th, 2012, 01:31 PM
Might be worth the 3.5 to 5 hour drive... I'm pretty much sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for the Ebay auction to go up. As long as you have the 5161 with the extender/reciever cards and cable together as one lot, I'm happy.

Shadow Lord
June 8th, 2012, 01:32 PM
So I just called the closest UPS store. OEM box size is 24x24x12 1/2". The largest box they sell (at that store?) is 25.75 x 25.75 x 25.75 (scored so that you can make it shorter). It's considered oversized. They charge $17 for the box, and he said that depending on destination shipping for it would run $80/box or so if it wasn't oversized (meaning short enough not to be. Based on the UPS website, $80 would only be if it were heading cross-country; otherwise it would run about $30/box within our zone, and increase from there. With three boxes (the monitor being a bit lighter), shipping will wind up being $80-$200 if I go with UPS and do separate boxes. It actually winds up being more expensive to ship both larger units in one box ($175 to stay within the zone rather than $60 for two boxes) due to the oversize issue. Strange but true.

Shipping is a strange beast. Things don't always make sense. However, armed with the knowledge you can price appropriately and list your S&H appropriately. I believe for my 5170 the shipping was $100 from MN to CA w/ UPS. I am almost positive those box sizes are supported by USPS (I have had an in box 5150 shipped double boxed w/ USPS previously). If you sent Parcel post it'll be MUCH cheaper then UPS. Tracking w/ USPS adds another $0.83 and insurance is a $5-$7 depending on selling price.

Try plugging them into the USPS website and see what you get. This way YOU don't get any surprises at the end of the auction and the buyers know what the heck they are getting.

bettablue
June 8th, 2012, 01:40 PM
Yeah, that was Jimmy. Sad, really sad. I'll send you the pics via email marco...


I remember a thread a little while back about someone who got a 5150 with the monitor and KB. It shipped UPS and came to them completely totaled. Now there's one less 5153 monitor in the world. (The others were repaired)

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 01:45 PM
Try plugging them into the USPS website and see what you get. This way YOU don't get any surprises at the end of the auction and the buyers know what the heck they are getting.

Unfortunately it's more. $62 for Boston vs. $30 for UPS; and up to $108 for West Coast vs. $80-something for UPS. Sigh. Off to Fedex...

Stone
June 8th, 2012, 01:57 PM
I've had lots of success with FedEx sending multisync monitors coast to coast to coast. These monsters weigh about 40 lbs. I let them pack'em and they've gotten there in perfect shape every time. Cost: $65 to $100 including the packing charges.

marcoguy
June 8th, 2012, 02:17 PM
Just leave the local pickup option up in the listing...

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 8th, 2012, 04:45 PM
Just leave the local pickup option up in the listing...

Definitely. I think I'd even chip in for gas! :D

marcoguy
June 8th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Lol. Any good hotels in your area? (Because I'm not driving 7-10 hrs in one day!)

Shadow Lord
June 8th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Lol. Any good hotels in your area? (Because I'm not driving 7-10 hrs in one day!)

I have no idea how much gas is in your area or what kind of MPG you get but if it only costs $30 to ship it double boxed to you wouldn't that make more sense? For me on $30 I can drive ~118 miles and this doesn't even count the cost of my time or wear and tear on my car or in your case a hotel. Just saying you may want it shipped at the end....

marcoguy
June 8th, 2012, 05:42 PM
I was actually just thinking that. It depends on how much shipping ends up actually being.

bettablue
June 8th, 2012, 06:28 PM
I was actually just thinking that. It depends on how much shipping ends up actually being.


Still, it might make for a nice drive. After seeing some of the shipping damage I have seen lately, from ALL carriers, not just UPS, it would be prudent to do a pick up. Take it from someone who works for UPS. (Yes, I do, technical support though, not involved directly with package handling) UPS, and FEDEX both have pretty tough guidelines for shipping CRT typs TV's and CRT computer displays. No matter how well you package monitors, for some reason, they are the most often piece of computer technology that gets damaged during shipping. That is exactly I had my brother-in-law make the purchase for me when I bought mine. Even though everything was in the original bozes, I think it was the best choice. My wife picked it up on the way home from a planned trip, and picking up the computer gave her a chance to stop by to see her brother.

Marco, do you know of someone you know who is already making a trip to see you from the same area, or close by? Maybe you could do the same.

Although it may take a little extra time, you know it will end up at your place a lot safer, and you can save some money.

Just another option...

marcoguy
June 8th, 2012, 06:35 PM
It will be safer... and I would always regret it if it came all screwed up or even just a little damaged in the mail.

Shadow Lord
June 9th, 2012, 05:59 PM
It will be safer... and I would always regret it if it came all screwed up or even just a little damaged in the mail.

Well hopefully she will post it on eBay soon before marcoguy has a conniption! ;)

bettablue
June 9th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Well hopefully she will post it on eBay soon before marcoguy has a conniption! ;)

I have to agree. You Go Get 'er Marco!

marcoguy
June 9th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Can't wait!

mbbrutman
June 9th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Can't wait!

Ok guys ... we're having a little thread abuse problem here. It's devolved into an off-line chat channel.

Posts should be meaningful and of general interest to a wide variety of readers. If it takes less than 30 seconds to compose a reply to a thread, then you probably shouldn't be pressing the reply button.

I realize there is a lot of interest in this item, but it's time to stop frothing at the mouth. ; - 0


Mike

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 10th, 2012, 04:12 AM
A head parking program is available at
http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/software/PARK.zip

Unless Norton has a park utility hidden somewhere, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to park it as I'm not sure how to transfer a program onto it. I don't have any 5 1/4" disks, much less a 5 1/4" drive.

The box issue is still difficult. I'm afraid to list it if I don't have the proper shipping supplies, and I'm having a tough time finding them. The joys of living in a rural area. Off to look for some this AM.

I put the whole thing on Craigslist yesterday with what I realize is probably a fairly high price, just hoping that the right person would see it and save me the step of shipping, but no luck on that as of yet.

I'm still wavering between one listing or two. If I did one listing, I'd be willing to ship only the 5161 if that's all the buyer wanted, but not knowing what the pieces are worth, I think that might lead to difficulty reaching consensus about an appropriate credit amount.

modem7
June 10th, 2012, 04:33 AM
Unless Norton has a park utility hidden somewhere, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to park it as I'm not sure how to transfer a program onto it. I don't have any 5 1/4" disks, much less a 5 1/4" drive.
We know you have an ST-412 drive. Its landing zone (cylinder) is 319. One of us here will knock up some very short code that you can type into DOS' DEBUG, code that will move the heads to cylinder 319. You would then power off the 5161 immediately after running the code.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 10th, 2012, 04:43 AM
We know you have an ST-412 drive. Its landing zone (cylinder) is 319. One of us here will knock up some very short code that you can type into DOS' DEBUG, code that will move the heads to cylinder 319. You would then power off the 5161 immediately after running the code.

WOW! Thank you! :D

Shadow Lord
June 10th, 2012, 06:38 AM
The box issue is still difficult. I'm afraid to list it if I don't have the proper shipping supplies, and I'm having a tough time finding them. The joys of living in a rural area. Off to look for some this AM.

I put the whole thing on Craigslist yesterday with what I realize is probably a fairly high price, just hoping that the right person would see it and save me the step of shipping, but no luck on that as of yet.

I'm still wavering between one listing or two. If I did one listing, I'd be willing to ship only the 5161 if that's all the buyer wanted, but not knowing what the pieces are worth, I think that might lead to difficulty reaching consensus about an appropriate credit amount.

I thought we resolved this? Didn't UPS say they will pack it for you for $17? And if you are going to ship you are going to have to go down to their store seems like the easy thing to do is have them pack it. Just list the item w/ UPS as your shipping option and the eBay calculator will tell the potential buyer how much it costs to their door. You will most likely make enough profit that the $17 is not a big issue for packing, but if it is, just take your minimum acceptable price + $20 (so your costs are covered) and list that as your stating bid price.

Save yourself headache and list the two separately. After all of this the last thing you want is deal to fall through because the buyer only wants the 5161 and you two can't figure out how to split the price. If somebody is that desperate to keep them as a set they can bid on both! And since it sounds as if you are selling the cable w/ the 5161 again don't forget the transmitter card!

Just my two cents. I buy exclusively on eBay (no selling) and after 12 years I've seen alot of the BS sellers pull either intentionally or unintentionally and shipping/packing issues is one of the major ones.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 10th, 2012, 07:22 AM
I thought we resolved this? Didn't UPS say they will pack it for you for $17? And if you are going to ship you are going to have to go down to their store seems like the easy thing to do is have them pack it.

Hmmm... I'm fairly sure that the $17 figure was what they would charge me for the box if I wanted to just buy the box and pack it myself. And that was for a box that gave only 1" of play on each side of the longer side of the unit (maybe that's sufficient, though?). I did not get the impression that that included the labor of packing and any packing supplies like bubble wrap. Maybe I'm mistaken, though. And that, of course, is for one box, so three boxes alone would cost $51. If that included packing, then I should probably be all over it. I guess I'll have to call to clarify. And also to clarify, the only reason that I would travel to that site is because they have packing services. There's a UPS office significantly closer to me that has package drop-off only, or I think I could call to schedule a pick-up at pretty much any address on their route, anyway.

I've just put out an appeal to friends for boxes; hoping to find a few folks who have some spares kicking around.

Stone
June 10th, 2012, 08:21 AM
If UPS is charging $17 that must be for packing. FedEx charges me ~$20 to pack and ship a multisymc monitor in a box they charge $5 for. That's a 20" x 20" x 20" box. Seriously, they're not charging $17 for a box. :-)

Shadow Lord
June 10th, 2012, 08:21 AM
Hmmm... I'm fairly sure that the $17 figure was what they would charge me for the box if I wanted to just buy the box and pack it myself. And that was for a box that gave only 1" of play on each side of the longer side of the unit (maybe that's sufficient, though?). I did not get the impression that that included the labor of packing and any packing supplies like bubble wrap. Maybe I'm mistaken, though. And that, of course, is for one box, so three boxes alone would cost $51. If that included packing, then I should probably be all over it. I guess I'll have to call to clarify. And also to clarify, the only reason that I would travel to that site is because they have packing services. There's a UPS office significantly closer to me that has package drop-off only, or I think I could call to schedule a pick-up at pretty much any address on their route, anyway.

I've just put out an appeal to friends for boxes; hoping to find a few folks who have some spares kicking around.

Okay, I misunderstood. The 1" is enough. Basically you won't able to stop a catastrophe (i.e. someone running a truck into it) but small bumps, pressures, and shallow penetrating trauma will be protected against. Just make sure you either pack w/ lots of peanuts (ideally contained in plastic bags) or add solid Styrofoam blocks (even better) in between. Again, i am not sure why you are stressing about the cost of shipping? The cost of shipping is what the cost of shipping is. If someone wants to buy it they need to understand that on top of the auction price they need to pay X dollars for S&H. And if they buy all three boxes they have to pay a significant amount for shipping these days.

bettablue
June 12th, 2012, 09:29 AM
I don't follow; sounds like everything's as it should be regarding the 5161 connection, but I don't think the combo has actually 'booted' anything yet other than ROM BASIC.

Just sounds like a bad HD, cable or controller and a bad or non-bootable FDD/diskette.

Again Mike, I agree. There just seems to be something funny here. The OP stated that the unit will pop up with error 1701, or 1801, then all of the sudden, it's OK? Yet, when they boot the expansion first, everything is normal. Well, that's to be expected, it should be normal. And now that they have started booting it from the expansion unit, it works too! I would say that regardless what the booting issue might be, and I'm thinking more about user error because the OP is unfamiliar with the system. (Don't worry, we were all there at some point; especially me!) I'm just glad they got it all figured out and marcoguy has something he can bid on.

I sincerely hope that marcoguy wins this auction. I've been working with him in private messaging for a while. I can't think of a better person to win this particular system. Besides, if he loses; well, I can't stand to see a grown man cry.

Is there any idea on what the opening bit might be?

marcoguy
June 12th, 2012, 09:45 AM
For those of you who don't know (and I hope I'm not screwing myself by saying this!) It already went up on Ebay with a starting price of $295. There's been one bid, and it isn't me. I usually wait until the end to bid. If this goes over $400, I will likely buy the Tecmar unit that is on Ebay for $400 but it now. Here's a link to the 5161 (once again, I hope I'm not screwing myself by putting this here:D):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180903948099?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1414

Stone
June 12th, 2012, 09:47 AM
Is there any idea on what the opening bit might be?http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-IBM-5161-Expansion-Unit-for-5150-Personal-Computer-inc-cable-cards-/180903948099?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2a1eb72f43

Shadow Lord
June 12th, 2012, 10:17 AM
For those of you who don't know (and I hope I'm not screwing myself by saying this!) It already went up on Ebay with a starting price of $295. There's been one bid, and it isn't me. I usually wait until the end to bid. If this goes over $400, I will likely buy the Tecmar unit that is on Ebay for $400 but it now. Here's a link to the 5161 (once again, I hope I'm not screwing myself by putting this here:D):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180903948099?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1414

Marcoguy,

No you are not screwing yourself. You have a certain amount of money you can spend/are willing to spend on this system. If someone is willing to spend more than you then they are willing to spend more than you. Thats all there is to it. Sniping at the last second, or not bidding until the last minute are strategies only useful in avoiding giving someone time to think "can I spend $50 more"? But they won't help against another bidder who is willing to outspend you. Plus like I told OP: The people who want a 5161 saw this posted on eBay in the first few hours. I suspect this will see the usual last 30 second flurry of bidding before the price becomes known. However, the opening BID is very large already so you never know. It may not climb much past that...

marcoguy
June 12th, 2012, 10:22 AM
I know, I am really just waiting it out because there's really no point on bidding yet. I know I will be outbid if I bid now so I will just let other people bid on it until it is at most a day away from ending.

bettablue
June 12th, 2012, 10:26 AM
I personally thinkk that regardless which one you get, you'll be happy, although you're like me in a lot of respects and will really only be happy with the original. The 5161 on eBay is super clean and in fantastic condition; it looks as good as mine. As well it should. After all, it was boxed for so long.

I really hope you do get it.

I'll be watching marco. Good luck.


For those of you who don't know (and I hope I'm not screwing myself by saying this!) It already went up on Ebay with a starting price of $295. There's been one bid, and it isn't me. I usually wait until the end to bid. If this goes over $400, I will likely buy the Tecmar unit that is on Ebay for $400 but it now. Here's a link to the 5161 (once again, I hope I'm not screwing myself by putting this here:D):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180903948099?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1414

marcoguy
June 12th, 2012, 10:33 AM
We are the same in a lot of respects with things like that. If I win, it'll be refreshing to see 2 HH IBM 360k FDDs and a FH ST-412 in my 5160 instead of the eyesore of a faceplateless 1.44Mb FDD, a 3.5" HD, and a faceplateless CDROM drive. (Those'll go in the 5161) Also, still nothing from Ed...

bettablue
June 12th, 2012, 10:56 AM
If you win, I want the faceplates as you add more drives and such!

Please?


We are the same in a lot of respects with things like that. If I win, it'll be refreshing to see 2 HH IBM 360k FDDs and a FH ST-412 in my 5160 instead of the eyesore of a faceplateless 1.44Mb FDD, a 3.5" HD, and a faceplateless CDROM drive. (Those'll go in the 5161) Also, still nothing from Ed...

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 12th, 2012, 06:28 PM
but I don't think the combo has actually 'booted' anything yet other than ROM BASIC.


Again Mike, I agree. There just seems to be something funny here. The OP stated that the unit will pop up with error 1701, or 1801, then all of the sudden, it's OK? Yet, when they boot the expansion first, everything is normal. Well, that's to be expected, it should be normal. And now that they have started booting it from the expansion unit, it works too! I would say that regardless what the booting issue might be, and I'm thinking more about user error because the OP is unfamiliar with the system. (Don't worry, we were all there at some point; especially me!) I'm just glad they got it all figured out and marcoguy has something he can bid on.

I sincerely hope that marcoguy wins this auction. I've been working with him in private messaging for a while. I can't think of a better person to win this particular system. Besides, if he loses; well, I can't stand to see a grown man cry.

Is there any idea on what the opening bit might be?

I'm not sure I'm following here. If it were only booting to Basic, would I be getting a C prompt? Would I be able to move around from directory to directory, look at which programs are on the system, rewrite the autoexec.bat to remove the Procomm line, etc.?

I don't think I've booted to anything other than Basic on the 5150 alone (really wish I had a boot disk known to be good, but I got rid of all of my 5 1/4" disks at least ten years ago), but based on what I'm seeing on the 5161, I think it's booting to DOS.

I will confess operator error on one thing: The time that I was turned on the 5161 AFTER the 5150, I (examines feet) discovered that the 5161 wasn't actually plugged in. Ahem. At that point, though, I was told that the 5161 should go on first, anyway, so I didn't try it the other way around again. Not sure what would happen if I tried it that way again with both machines plugged in this time (examining feet again...) but since I'm so paranoid about doing anything wrong and causing any damage, I'm not inclined to try.

Re the auction / starting price, I hadn't intended to start it out that high, but I received two offers for the 5161 -- both involving long-distance shipping -- prior to listing it, and I would have felt completely stupid if I had listed it low and it for some reason sold low. I've lucked into auctions that just didn't take hold before myself, and I know it must really stink for the seller, and I didn't want that to happen to me here.

That said, I also hope that Marcoguy gets it; I wish he had bought it when it was on CL.

marcoguy
June 12th, 2012, 06:42 PM
If you have a C prompt, you are in DOS; not BASIC.

MikeS
June 12th, 2012, 06:42 PM
I'm not sure I'm following here. If it were only booting to Basic, would I be getting a C prompt? Would I be able to move around from directory to directory, look at which programs are on the system, rewrite the autoexec.bat to remove the Procomm line, etc.?No, you're booting DOS on the hard disk all right; that was in response to a post early on when you'd said it came up saying OK instead of a DOS prompt.

Nice looking listing, well done; good luck!

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 12th, 2012, 06:48 PM
If you have a C prompt, you are in DOS; not BASIC.

Thanks. That's what I thought. I didn't ever get an A prompt on the 5150, so definitely BASIC there, but it did behave as I would expect it to - light on, tried to boot, gave up, light off, BASIC OK prompt.

MikeS
June 12th, 2012, 07:00 PM
Obviously the 1701 hard disk error has also resolved itself.

It looks like your boot diskette is bad though; while you still have the 5161 you might want to make a new one or redo that one if you don't have any other diskettes, or you won't be able to boot the 5150 except to BASIC.

Assuming the floppy drive is OK of course.

marcoguy
June 12th, 2012, 07:24 PM
To make a bootable disk, type format A: /S. That will format the disk in drive A and make it bootable.Then, you copy whatever files you want from the C drive to the A drive.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 13th, 2012, 01:39 AM
Thanks. Unfortunately I don't have an extra disk. If I hadn't mentioned the two disks that I do have in the 5150 auction, I would do that to one of them. Once that unit is sold, I might contact the seller and ask them whether they would like me to try to make a boot disk with one of those two and make sure that it boots, but in the meantime, having mentioned them in the auction I don't want to destroy them.

I have one place I know of where I might have an old floppy; I'm going to check later today.


To make a bootable disk, type format A: /S. That will format the disk in drive A and make it bootable.Then, you copy whatever files you want from the C drive to the A drive.

SpidersWeb
June 13th, 2012, 04:07 AM
I wouldn't worry too much. As long as your honest in the auction.

If you do insert any disks, rotate the donut a little bit and shine a light off the data surface - make sure it's still shiny and not patchy. Otherwise the heads can build up crud (and then start scratching disks, I learnt this the hard way, fun times).

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 13th, 2012, 12:23 PM
I set it up again today sort of step-by-step, and here's some clarification on the boot / 1801 thing.

1) When the 5150 is turned on WITHOUT the extender card installed, the following happens

a) with either of the two floppies in the drive: "Non-system disk or disk error"
b) with the drive doors opened: boots to BASIC.


2) When the 5150 is turned on WITH the extender card installed, but not hooked up to the 5161, then it immediately displays 1801 on the screen, thinks a bit with the 1801 still displayed, tries to boot off of the floppy drive but then displays the "Non-system disk or disk error" (and boots to BASIC when the A drive door is open). So it seems like the orphaned card is causing the 1801 error? It detects the card, but not the hard drive that the card leads it to expect is there, so it displays the error?

3) When the 5150 is turned on with the 5161 properly hooked up, and the A drive door open, it just boots to DOS. No error, though it does take about a minute or perhaps even longer to get there. I assume that that is normal. From the DOS prompt, I can then read the floppies in both A and B with a dir command, so it would seem that both floppy drives are functional. I haven't tried copying to nul which I vaguely recall is what I used to do eons ago if I was trying to test the integrity of files on a floppy; I imagine that would also test the ability of the drive to read all of the files on the disk. I've found that some of the stuff I remember from DOS (e.g. some of the DIR parameters) don't work on this version, so I'm always a bit reluctant to try anything that might not end well! One of the floppies has a copy of Procomm on it; the other appears to be either a boot disk or an attempt at one, as it has an autoexec.bat and a command.com on it. The command.com is dated 04/09/91, which seems rather newish compared to the age of the machine.

Modem7, I didn't yet try the drive parking commands that you wrote (thank you again for that. GREATLY appreciated!), as I know I'll have the machine on again. I'll give it a try sometime in the next day or two. I did check just to make sure that Debug was in the \DOS directory, and it is. I also looked in the \UTIL directory as well, and besides nu.com, there was also an xtree.exe (think I remember that from my previous life as showing the hard drive directory/subdirectory structure), and also a ship.exe. Is that a drive parking thing? It was time-stamped 4/4/86, 10:56 AM, for what that's worth. I do recall reading something about IBM's SHIPDISK causing trouble with drives, so I am a bit wary, though if this is a parking program, it seems to be a different one.

SpidersWeb
June 13th, 2012, 12:29 PM
xtree.exe is XTree, best file manager known to man kind.
ship.exe most likely is the parking tool, but wont know until it's been run. (double checked that with google, and it concurs that it's a common filename for a park tool)

Good little set of utils.

Shadow Lord
June 13th, 2012, 12:35 PM
Everything is working fine as it should:

1. When you start w/o the extender card your system acts like a plain old 5150 w/ no HDD. If you close the FDD doors it tries to read a floppy to boot. If you don't have one or if it is not a bootable floppy you get the nonsystem disk error. W/ the doors open the system boots to ROM BASIC.

2. W/ the extender installed it is erring out because the extender does not se the receiver on the other end.

3. W/ everything setup the system POSTs finds the HDD in the 5160 and boots from it.

bettablue
June 13th, 2012, 06:26 PM
Now this makes sense. At the beginning I was confused because the OP was booting and either not getting errors when they should, or getting errors when they shouldn't be. This post corrects all of that.

Thanks for posting this clarification. Happy selling.


I set it up again today sort of step-by-step, and here's some clarification on the boot / 1801 thing.

1) When the 5150 is turned on WITHOUT the extender card installed, the following happens

a) with either of the two floppies in the drive: "Non-system disk or disk error"
b) with the drive doors opened: boots to BASIC.


2) When the 5150 is turned on WITH the extender card installed, but not hooked up to the 5161, then it immediately displays 1801 on the screen, thinks a bit with the 1801 still displayed, tries to boot off of the floppy drive but then displays the "Non-system disk or disk error" (and boots to BASIC when the A drive door is open). So it seems like the orphaned card is causing the 1801 error? It detects the card, but not the hard drive that the card leads it to expect is there, so it displays the error?

3) When the 5150 is turned on with the 5161 properly hooked up, and the A drive door open, it just boots to DOS. No error, though it does take about a minute or perhaps even longer to get there. I assume that that is normal. From the DOS prompt, I can then read the floppies in both A and B with a dir command, so it would seem that both floppy drives are functional. I haven't tried copying to nul which I vaguely recall is what I used to do eons ago if I was trying to test the integrity of files on a floppy; I imagine that would also test the ability of the drive to read all of the files on the disk. I've found that some of the stuff I remember from DOS (e.g. some of the DIR parameters) don't work on this version, so I'm always a bit reluctant to try anything that might not end well! One of the floppies has a copy of Procomm on it; the other appears to be either a boot disk or an attempt at one, as it has an autoexec.bat and a command.com on it. The command.com is dated 04/09/91, which seems rather newish compared to the age of the machine.

Modem7, I didn't yet try the drive parking commands that you wrote (thank you again for that. GREATLY appreciated!), as I know I'll have the machine on again. I'll give it a try sometime in the next day or two. I did check just to make sure that Debug was in the \DOS directory, and it is. I also looked in the \UTIL directory as well, and besides nu.com, there was also an xtree.exe (think I remember that from my previous life as showing the hard drive directory/subdirectory structure), and also a ship.exe. Is that a drive parking thing? It was time-stamped 4/4/86, 10:56 AM, for what that's worth. I do recall reading something about IBM's SHIPDISK causing trouble with drives, so I am a bit wary, though if this is a parking program, it seems to be a different one.

SteveMarg
June 14th, 2012, 12:01 PM
Wow. Up to $500 already! I will admit it's in great shape!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-IBM-5161-Expansion-Unit-for-5150-Personal-Computer-inc-cable-cards-/180903948099?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2a1eb72f43

MikeS
June 14th, 2012, 07:01 PM
Wow. Up to $500 already! I will admit it's in great shape!And the listing is also very well done!

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 15th, 2012, 03:31 AM
And the listing is also very well done!

Thank you. I was a bit nervous about listing something I know so little about, so I really appreciate the feedback. I'm also very grateful for all of the information and assistance I've gotten from everyone here. It's been invaluable.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 18th, 2012, 07:21 AM
Two final dumb questions as I'm packing things up:

1) I'm planning on making two cardboard drive protectors for the floppy drives, rather than just leaving the disks in. I assume that this is advisable. I found these instructions on-line

http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/1571/transit.txt

but I have no clue whether this, which it says fits a "1571" or "1541" drive is the proper one because I'm not quite sure what those two numbers are and how they would relate to the IBM 5150 drives.

2) Am I better to use the "SHIP" program in the \UTIL directory to park the hard drive, or am I better to use the debug code that Modem7 was kind enough to write? I've read that IBM's own SHIPDISK from that era could be problematic, so I'm a bit reluctant to use a program I don't know the source of. (ETA: and by that I'm referring to the one on the hard drive; I'm a bit wary of it and trust Modem7's code a bit more, though he had said something about it not going out to as high a cylinder as he wanted or something like that?)

DOS lives on!!
June 18th, 2012, 07:33 AM
Don't run SHIP from the hard drive, always run it from a floppy disk. Running it from the HDD like you said, can cause data destruction.

Shadow Lord
June 18th, 2012, 07:41 AM
But make sure to PARK the HDD someway. Like DLO said you can just copy the ship utility to a floppy disk, run it, and shut down the system right afterwards. Do not turn it back on (unless you plan to re-park). Or if you can get your hands on the park utility from spinrite II you can use that. I found that utility to be the best. Then ship it to its new home stat!

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 18th, 2012, 07:49 AM
So I copy it up to one of the two floppies that I have, go to the A drive, and from the A drive type

SHIP C: ??

Or will it know that the C drive is what I want to park without specifying?

The only park program I have is the ship.exe that I mentioned earlier in the thread that resides in \UTIL with XTREE and NU. I'm not sure whose program it is, so I'm definitely a bit wary. The only thing I know about is that it is time-stamped 4/4/86, 10:56 AM.

Shadow Lord
June 18th, 2012, 07:58 AM
So I copy it up to one of the two floppies that I have, go to the A drive, and from the A drive type

SHIP C: ??

Or will it know that the C drive is what I want to park without specifying?

The only park program I have is the ship.exe that I mentioned earlier in the thread that resides in \UTIL with XTREE and NU. I'm not sure whose program it is, so I'm definitely a bit wary. The only thing I know about is that it is time-stamped 4/4/86, 10:56 AM.

Not sure about the syntax on ship but ship c: sounds like a good guess. You can run it w/o any arguments and see if it throws up a little help screen. And don't forget to take out the extender card from the 5150 once you have finished parking the drive.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 18th, 2012, 08:04 AM
Not sure about the syntax on ship but ship c: sounds like a good guess. You can run it w/o any arguments and see if it throws up a little help screen. And don't forget to take out the extender card from the 5150 once you have finished parking the drive.

Thanks, yes, I put the anti-static bag right on the table so as to remind myself!

How about the floppy drives. Any clue if that pattern will work for the drives on the 5150? Obviously I don't want to do anything that will damage them.

Stone
June 18th, 2012, 08:05 AM
If you want SpinRite's Park I can send it to you... or anyone else who might want it.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 18th, 2012, 08:24 AM
If you want SpinRite's Park I can send it to you... or anyone else who might want it.

Thanks -- that's a very kind offer but I have to ship this out hopefully tomorrow.

Stone
June 18th, 2012, 08:43 AM
IIRC, email only takes about 7.32889 seconds. :-) :-)

Shadow Lord
June 18th, 2012, 10:03 AM
IIRC, email only takes about 7.32889 seconds. :-) :-)

What he said! ;) As for the cardboard cutouts, they should work AFAIK however (the numbers I believe are Commodore 5 1/4 floppy drive models and a 5 1/4 floppy is physically a 5 1/4" floppy no matter what the machine), unless you are attached to your floppies I'd just use those and save yourself headache...

MikeS
June 18th, 2012, 10:19 AM
IIRC, email only takes about 7.32889 seconds. :-) :-)... and then a week and at least fifty often misleading and/or contradictory posts about how to get it from the email machine to the PC or a 5 1/4" diskette...

Stone
June 18th, 2012, 11:03 AM
... and then a week and at least fifty often misleading and/or contradictory posts about how to get it from the email machine to the PC or a 5 1/4" diskette...Hey, when you sell an expansion unit for $816.00 you should be able to find a way to do this! :-)

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 18th, 2012, 01:18 PM
...how to get it from the email machine to the PC or a 5 1/4" diskette...

Aye, there's the rub.

DumbQuestionDuJour
June 18th, 2012, 01:19 PM
What he said! ;) As for the cardboard cutouts, they should work AFAIK however (the numbers I believe are Commodore 5 1/4 floppy drive models and a 5 1/4 floppy is physically a 5 1/4" floppy no matter what the machine), unless you are attached to your floppies I'd just use those and save yourself headache...

Okay. I had googled a bit and people seemed to think that shipping with a cardboard cutout protected the heads better because it pushed something or other back into a better position? Something like that I think anyway. But if that's not the case, I'm all for the easier way. :)

ETA: And in a final bit of great timing, my boxes arrived today. :D

bettablue
June 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Final price $816.00!

I know I won't get that for mine simply because I don't have the original box, but I am impressed nonetheless. And, yes; it is in great shape. That's why it sold for as much as it did. To be honest, that is the highest priced PC accessory that I've personally seen sold on E-Bay. My congratulations to both buyer and seller.


Wow. Up to $500 already! I will admit it's in great shape!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-IBM-5161-Expansion-Unit-for-5150-Personal-Computer-inc-cable-cards-/180903948099?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2a1eb72f43