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canuck46
May 12th, 2006, 06:17 PM
So, FINALLY after getting my IBM 5150 and 5160 formatted and running properly....with Dos on them...I suddenly discovered I dont have a clue what kind of software would be appropriate for these machines. I would like to set them up with something that would have been available when they were new. The 5150 has a color monitor and 10 Mg Hard Drive and the 5160 is mono with about a 20 mg Hard Drive. Any Ideas ???? And of course where would I get something like that ???? Any help would be appreciated.

Dave:confused:

mbbrutman
May 12th, 2006, 06:43 PM
Well, it depends on what you want to do.

Any version of DOS 2.1 or up would be suitable. DOS 3.3 is very functional. DOS 5 or DOS 6.22 would be good as well. I'd go with 3.3 or 5.0. PC DOS of course .. MS DOS wouldn't be authentic, and it is slightly different.

Next up are applications:


Procomm is a classic terminal emulator, still good for file transfer over the serial port
WordStar 3.31 is the classic word processor of the day. Early versions of WordPefect would be fine too.
Microsoft Multiplan for a spreadsheet, or Lotus 1-2-3 1A.
Microsoft Flight Simulator 2.1x is a classic.
Other games, of course .. CGA only though.



That's a good start at least ...

canuck46
May 12th, 2006, 07:00 PM
I have all the noted DOS versions you listed...The 5150 curruntly has 3.3 on it and the 5160 has 2.1. I have a "Pile" of discs labelled Wordstar 5.0 but I didnt know where they fit in . I have 12 discs so I'll try and install that...nothing ventured.........:rolleyes:


Thanx for the info....

Erik
May 12th, 2006, 08:00 PM
For the 5150 you could run DOS 1.0 or 1.1 for real authenticity! :)

The earliest software available from IBM included DOS, The "Microsoft Adventure" and "Microsoft Decathalon" as well as a Typing Tutor.

Some other really early software would have been the aforementioned WordStar, Lotus 123, VisiCalc, SuperCalc and dBase II.

Enjoy!

Terry Yager
May 12th, 2006, 08:37 PM
If you like games, a couple of my favorite (free?)-ware games that work on an XT-compat with CGA are 'Jill of the Jungle', and 'Commander Keen'. Oh yeah, let's not forget about 'Lemmings' (I think that works w/ CGA?), also one of my all-time favorites. These programs should turn up in a web-search on the titles.

--T

canuck46
May 12th, 2006, 09:43 PM
Well....know I have something to work with !!!!! I have a few hundred 51/4 floppys with "Stuff" on them...So I'll just have to see if I can find the mentioned ones...I have a couple of them.... but I dont know if they work...I DO have "The IBM Typing Tutor" and it works....but I still cant spell....;) I'll see what I come up with and let everyone know.

Dave

alexkerhead
May 12th, 2006, 10:15 PM
Canuck, how did you resolve the issue with the hard disk?
As I recall, you and I had the same problem with our 5150s.

canuck46
May 13th, 2006, 09:55 AM
When I tryed to format 5150 HDD with 2.1 it said....bad sectors....cant format etc... I tryed other 2.1 discs...same deal.....finally found a Dos 5 disc...formatted and installed...no problems...BUT,I wanted a older more appropriate copy of Dos on that machine...So I dug around and found 3.3...reformatted and installed that....runs fine. Im not sure what the "ISSUE" was(is) yet....but ITS GONNA GET 2.1 on it sooner or later!!!! It may be the discs I have??? I dont know....But If I ever figure that out I'll let you know. Using the 2.1 disc I was able to format and install Dos on my 5160 and it runs just fine????

Dave:confused:

Jorg
May 13th, 2006, 10:25 AM
Not sure how big your harddisk is.. but I think MS-DOS 2.x only supports 10 MB disks. 20 MB harddisks as from 3.0, afaik that is.

canuck46
May 13th, 2006, 06:30 PM
One further note on ORIGINAL HDD Issue........ Using a different 2.1 disc I was able(so it said) to format 5150 HDD BUT when I tryed to copy Dos files to HDD it said there was not enough room.....So thats when I blew it and put something newer on..... It seemed like machine was more confused than I was...gave me different messages...So,Thats when I ran accross Dos 5 and went that way...

Dave:confused:

mbbrutman
May 13th, 2006, 07:01 PM
Minor correction ... DOS 2.x supports up to 15MB per partition according to Microsoft. And you can have up to four different partitions per machine. But yes, effectively only one partition is active at a time so it is rather limited.

canuck46
May 13th, 2006, 07:57 PM
So does anyone have any idea why Dos 2.1 would say "Not Enough Space" when I tried to copy Dos onto HDD ??? Obviously there was lots of space as I was able to re-format with Dos 5 and Dos 3.3 and install them. The hard drive is 10mg. Maybe the Dos gods were mad at me that nite....I might try again just caus "I Can".:listen:

mbbrutman
May 13th, 2006, 08:25 PM
If you did format c: and then immediate did the sys c: it should have been fine. If you started copying files before doign the sys c: it might give you that message.

Of course the way around that problem is just to use format c: /s ...

If that wasn't it, I haven't a clue.

Micom 2000
May 13th, 2006, 08:32 PM
One of the things I discovered when finding old computers was the almost predictable software installed on them. I concluded the majority of users were quite boring. Standard WP or occasional Wordstar, Lotus and an accounting program. Occasionally I would find one reflecting imagination in the user and would mine it for some of the programs on it. It was more fun.

One of my favorite tools which I still put on every Intel computer I own is CMFiler which can read hex listings as well as Ascii and execute any program plus much more.
It still works with Win 98. An amazing program. It is a bit like Norton Commander or PC Tools but incredibly more capable. With it I could explore and troubleshoot any computer.

There are so many interesting programs developed for early DOS. One of the best DOS graphics programs I've seen was one called Neo-Chrome, but it might have required a 386 processor. I loved the early Sidekick, a program called pop-up, a free-form idea developer whose name I can't remember, an early windows with 4 frames. I imagine all of these are on Simtel. Some games of course, but I could use my Atari for more interesting ones. Check out the numerous archives for the many programs available. Part of the fun is finding programs that tickle your fancy rather than those business programs that simply reflect the needs of some corporation.

Lawrence

Terry Yager
May 14th, 2006, 07:52 AM
Early versions of DOS would format a floppy disk two different ways, but I don't recall if that applied to hard drives as well. The default was to format as a 'data' disk, in which the system tracks were available for a little extra storage space. If you thought you might want to put a system on the disk, you had to enter a certain parameter to the command line, so it would reserve the system tracks for future use. The error message returned when attempting to sys a data disk was similar to what you're seeing [No room for system on destination disk].

OK, I looked it up, and I believe this may be what you're experiencing:


Fixed disks are already physically formatted when shipped by IBM. When formatting a fixed disk, FORMAT checks all locations within the DOS partition, but does not physically format them again. --DOS Manual, pg. 2-93

I'm searching for the error msg now, which may take a while, so I'll get back to ya.

--T

Terry Yager
May 14th, 2006, 08:09 AM
No room for system on destination disk

Explanation: The destination diskette does not contain the required reserved space for DOS; therefore, the system cannot be transferred. --PCDOS manual, v.2.10, pg. A-61

This error doesn't seem to apply to hard drives tho, just floppies, and I really don't remember. Whaddaya think, Mike?

--T

Terry Yager
May 14th, 2006, 08:23 AM
What was the exact wording of your error msg? The only 'No space' messages I can find are returned by FDISK, but IIUC, you were getting the errors from FORMAT?

--T

mbbrutman
May 14th, 2006, 08:48 AM
Formatting a disk without /s doesn't copy the system files to the disk (floppy or hard disk). As soon as you create the first file or directory on the target disk, you have possibly used the space where those system files go, or taken the slot in the file allocation table that they need. (Yep, they've got to be right at the beginning of the FAT. Google for the exact rules.)

Formatting with /s transfers the system files over, so this won't be a problem.

In the case of floppy disks formatting is both physical and logical formatting. For hard disks format only does a software format. The physical (low level) format has to be done with a utility, either in BIOS somewhere or in software.

As for the error message, I'd boot with a proper DOS disk and format c: /s to format the hard disk. If it was the reserved space issue, that will take care of it.

canuck46
May 14th, 2006, 12:14 PM
OK..Im going to try this again....Im settin up 5150 upstairs close to this computer....and I'll try and format it.For some reason I think the /s was ommited on my part...Oops.....We'll see shortly....

Dave

Mad-Mike
June 2nd, 2006, 01:41 PM
One of the things I discovered when finding old computers was the almost predictable software installed on them. I concluded the majority of users were quite boring. Standard WP or occasional Wordstar, Lotus and an accounting program. Occasionally I would find one reflecting imagination in the user and would mine it for some of the programs on it. It was more fun.

One of my favorite tools which I still put on every Intel computer I own is CMFiler which can read hex listings as well as Ascii and execute any program plus much more.
It still works with Win 98. An amazing program. It is a bit like Norton Commander or PC Tools but incredibly more capable. With it I could explore and troubleshoot any computer.

There are so many interesting programs developed for early DOS. One of the best DOS graphics programs I've seen was one called Neo-Chrome, but it might have required a 386 processor. I loved the early Sidekick, a program called pop-up, a free-form idea developer whose name I can't remember, an early windows with 4 frames. I imagine all of these are on Simtel. Some games of course, but I could use my Atari for more interesting ones. Check out the numerous archives for the many programs available. Part of the fun is finding programs that tickle your fancy rather than those business programs that simply reflect the needs of some corporation.

Lawrence

I find it pretty much looks like this as far as software goes, yes, t's REAL predictable.

PC's, XT's, and Clones - if they even have a hard drive: Spin-Rite, Optimizer, ProComm Plus, Xtree Gold, BASICA with a bunch of BASIC programs and games, maybe some sort of menu system, Lotus 1-2-3 on occasion, and sometimes an early Word Processor, usually WordPerfect 5.1 Usually running MS-DOS or PC-DOS 3.1-5.0.

286, 386 SX, and early 386 DX - Usually MS-DOS 5.0, sometimes as new as 6.1, VERY rarely an early Windows (like 2.03 or 3.0), usually no Windows, some sort of freeware/shareware game like Commander Keen or Elf. Usually comes with Lotus 1-2-3, WordPerfect 5.1, and in rare cases, Harvard Graphics. These sometimes have cool screensavers on them.

386 DX-486 DX4 w/16MB or Lower of RAM - Usually DOS 5-6.22, Windows 3.1, Adobe Font Manager, some WordPerfect, some Lotus 1-2-3, sometimes a Microsoft office program or two, and maybe a Web Browser or ISP program of some sort, usually being AOL 3.0. Usually has a couple DOS games on it, in rare cases they could be something like Monkey Island and DOOM, but usually are Commander Keen, Scorched Earth, and Windows Entertainment Pack.

Anything Else - Usually Runs Windows 95, 98, NT, or 2000, has pretty much anything my computer has or has had on it (Microsoft Office, Microsoft Word, Microsoft yadda yadda). Sometimes has DOOM or Microsoft Arcade pack installed. Usually is slow as crap to start Windows, has Porn on the drive somewhere possibly, and usually is trying to run more fancy stuff than a machine of that type can handle.

Terry Yager
June 2nd, 2006, 02:51 PM
Oh yeah, Commander Keen. The first two-or-three versions were shareware & CGA-compatible. IIRC, Scorched Earth requires VGA, & I'm not sure what the minimum processor is, the oldest I've run it on was a '486.

--T

Micom 2000
June 2nd, 2006, 07:41 PM
But I'm not talking about Intel 386 or 486 boxes. There were an incredible variety of very functional programs that could be used on XTs as well as some pretty cool games such as "Commander Keene" or Tetrus. Somewhere I have a 3-dimensional chess game, and many other programs which were usually "Buttonware", freeware, or postcardware programs, many of which surpassed the big software companies products for many of the later processors. One such I've used since Dos days is CMFiler a much more capable Norton Commander type of progam which still unbelievably works even on W98. Then of course there was DR's GEM, Framework, Deskview, and Deskmate and many others including an Ashton Tate program which I can't recall but had a WP, DB, and a good graphics program.

It is becoming harder to find these programs but many of them are still out there, many times in european archives.
And some of course in my BBS hungry downloads. Some of them on disk I have. I do slack. :^{ Beat me, beat me.

XTs were really exciting for the time and it's our own fault that we burden them with so many of the tedius business programs that> I B M < called forth. What was so wonderous about an XT with Dos 2.1 ,WP , and Lotus 123 ? Except to accountants. That wonderful class of "bean-counters" who were only of interest to corporations or IBM.

But there were some visionaries who saw it's possible use in the world of ordinary people.

Lawrence

Luke
June 3rd, 2006, 06:02 AM
canuck46, DOS older than 3.00 WON'T format 20 Meg partition. Try to make 2 partitions. It's normal, I tried to enter 40 Mb disk in my 386 from portable with DOS 3.30 and it said: "Invalid media disk..." (something like that :P). 3.30 support up to 32 Meg drives. So 2.10 won't format 20 Meg partition, I don't know if it will format 2 10 Mb partitions, but try it.

the xt guy
June 3rd, 2006, 10:52 AM
I think DOS 3.30 was the first DOS that could make extended partitions. DOS 3.0 could see a single hard drive up to 32MB in size, so it's probably easiest just to go with some 3x version.

I use MS-DOS 3.31 (no that's not a typo) on my old 8088's, so I can have a single partition up to about 512MB.

Luke
June 3rd, 2006, 12:33 PM
You are wrong... you CAN make partition in DOS 2.00.

mbbrutman
June 3rd, 2006, 12:46 PM
I think there is a terminology problem.

DOS 3.3 is the first DOS to allow you to use extended partitions as extra DOS drive letters. While even DOS 1.0 has partition support, it only allows you to have one drive letter as you can't see the other non-active primary partitions and it does not support extended partitions. Same thing for all DOS versions up to 3.3.

Luke
June 3rd, 2006, 12:56 PM
OK, then sorry. If I understood, when I want to make second partition only one will be visible and if I want to change partition I must change atvive one in FDisk?

canuck46
June 4th, 2006, 11:58 AM
OK...I'll try that today...like in about 10 minutes......Thanx...

Dave:)

Rubix
June 1st, 2007, 04:44 PM
Could anyone please tell me how to quit Lotus 1-2-3 properly? :p

modem7
June 1st, 2007, 06:30 PM
Google using "exit Lotus 1-2-3"

mbbrutman
June 1st, 2007, 07:16 PM
Google is your friend.

Also, if you have a question that Google can not provide an answer for and it is not related to any current thread, start a new thread.

Big Blues
June 1st, 2007, 08:03 PM
Could anyone please tell me how to quit Lotus 1-2-3 properly? :p

Oh boy, I haven't touched Lotus since 1991. I seem to think you press / to access the menu (maybe \).

Joel

Rubix
June 2nd, 2007, 02:52 AM
Yeah, that works, tnx :) Sorry for not asking Google but you all, I thought it was a simple quick question instead of 15 minutes of searching through Google pages.

Trixter
June 17th, 2007, 10:24 PM
There were an incredible variety of very functional programs that could be used on XTs as well as some pretty cool games such as "Commander Keene" or Tetrus.

I've collected a great deal of those programs here, if you're curious: ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/xtfiles.rar

The games directory has a special "TECH" subdirectory which has games that are notable for being programmed especially well, using hardware or programming tricks, etc. Not all of the games in the TECH directory are fun to play, but all of them are impressive from some coding standpoint.