PDA

View Full Version : Mac SE/30 not detecting hard drive



oblivion
August 25th, 2012, 07:28 PM
I have a MAC se/30 that doesnt seem to be detecting its internal HDD. I'm a PC guy so i know virtually nothing about macs so this may be something horribly simple. I've tried 2 HDD's. one was an official mac 40mb drive and the other a 50 pin 4 gig scsi drive. they both seem to power up fine in the mac and spin and i know both drives were tested working from the previous owners. I'm currently getting into my Mac with OS 7 via disk right now but the HDD install is not showing up on the desktop nor was installation to the hdd an option on installing OS 7 (or OS 7.5 for that matter). I missing something? my experence with SCSI and even moreso Macs is limited. I can also verify the HDD installed with the Macs previous owner was working, he had a larger hdd installed but replaced it with the 40mb drive when he decided to sell it so the mac was deffinatly accessing HDD's prior to being sold to me.

commodorejohn
August 25th, 2012, 09:05 PM
My SE/30 has this issue as well; the folks on 68k Macintosh Liberation Army (http://www.68kmla.org) inform me that it likely needs to be recapped. However, I haven't gotten around to doing this, so I can't say for sure whether that's true.

patscc
August 25th, 2012, 10:19 PM
Does the external SCSI port work at all ?
patscc

NeXT
August 25th, 2012, 10:45 PM
Keep in mind that Apples disk utilities will NOT detect hard drives that are not branded by Apple unless you locate and apply the appropriate utility patch.

patscc
August 25th, 2012, 10:59 PM
I think OP did try an "official" Apple 40Mb ok'd by the previous owner, although that's a good point. oblivion, do you have a copy of something like Drive7 laying around ?
More importantly, adding to NeXT's post, can you check with original owner what the drives were formatted with ?
Going out on a limb, is there a possibility this is a SCSI ID issue ?
patscc

oblivion
August 25th, 2012, 11:29 PM
nope, nothing like drive7 or an external scsi drive around.
it could be an scsi issue since i hardly ever work with scsi drives. what should i try?

its a good possibility the 4 gig drive was formatted in a PC format but that doesnt explain the mac drive not working. i'll try switching to the mac drive again tommarow since i have a working OS now and see if it detects it. if it does what will i need to make the 4 gig drive work?

patscc
August 25th, 2012, 11:53 PM
What's the model no. on the 40Mb ?
patscc

oblivion
August 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
its a quantum 40 meg drive from 1990. i see numbers a few places but nowhere states them as a model number. the number by the barcode is MK1 15 17J 037E. also have 42S 940-40-9404

patscc
August 26th, 2012, 08:03 AM
See if this is the same, or similar drive.
http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/quantum/PRODRIVE-40-S-42MB-3-5-HH-SCSI1-SE.html
I think you should check if SCSI ID is set to 0.
patscc

oblivion
August 26th, 2012, 09:11 AM
See if this is the same, or similar drive.
http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/quantum/PRODRIVE-40-S-42MB-3-5-HH-SCSI1-SE.html
I think you should check if SCSI ID is set to 0.
patscc

looks like the drive. i just opened the SE and tried hooking up the apple drive, its not detecting it. correct me if i'm wrog but on booting up the OS (os 7) via disk a folder or something should appear on the desktop showing the hdd right?

i checked the drive and it looks like its set to 0. there is no jumper on A2,A1,A0 so i assume that means its set to open which means its set to 0. the only jumper is on EP which is parity check enabeling.

I dont see any damage to the board or blown caps.

patscc
August 26th, 2012, 11:09 AM
I believe you should see a drive icon with the name of the drive, but I'm a bit rusty on System 7 and don't have one in front of me.
You might want to try this boot disk:
http://main.system7today.com/articles/tutorials/disktools.html
patscc

commodorejohn
August 26th, 2012, 11:33 AM
I dont see any damage to the board or blown caps.
Caps don't have to be blown to cause problems, they can just age and dry and stop working properly. As I said, I'm not 100% sure that's the cause, but that's what people with more Mac repair experience have suggested to me.

oblivion
August 26th, 2012, 07:52 PM
I believe you should see a drive icon with the name of the drive, but I'm a bit rusty on System 7 and don't have one in front of me.
You might want to try this boot disk:
http://main.system7today.com/articles/tutorials/disktools.html
patscc

my issue is its the only mac i currently own here so i don't have any other macs to put these files on and then make a floppy with.

patscc
August 26th, 2012, 08:05 PM
So I guess the guy you got them from isn't close by ?
patscc

oblivion
August 26th, 2012, 08:14 PM
So I guess the guy you got them from isn't close by ?
patscc

nope, got the se/30 off the forums awhile ago but didnt acually have an OS to try the mac with till a few days ago when a forum member made and sent me some disks. as i said the prior owner of the mac said it worked fine. he was useing a larger 4 gig drive with it but when he sold it to me he took that larger drive out and put the working stock drive back in. then i recently aquired a nice 4+ gig 50 pin scsi hdd off the forums a few weeks ago but i cant get either of them to work. both drives were verified working by previous owners and as i said they do power up and spin.

patscc
August 26th, 2012, 08:36 PM
Is there anything else on the boot disk ?
patscc

oblivion
August 26th, 2012, 08:49 PM
Is there anything else on the boot disk ?
patscc

i have the following
mac OS 7.01 boot disk (how i currently access the mac)
os 7 install 1
os 7 install 2
os 7 tidbits
" printing
" fonts
" disk tools

also have OS 7.5 disks but it never let me install them, i assume this os is to big to make a floppy boot and it needs a hdd.
i have 7 install disks for that
a maclink plus disk
disk tools for 7.5

ok, disk tools is what you were talking about so maybe i already have that?

sorry, i'm seriously completly ignorant when it comes to macs.

RWallmow
August 27th, 2012, 12:38 AM
i have the following
mac OS 7.01 boot disk (how i currently access the mac)
os 7 install 1
os 7 install 2
os 7 tidbits
" printing
" fonts
" disk tools

also have OS 7.5 disks but it never let me install them, i assume this os is to big to make a floppy boot and it needs a hdd.
i have 7 install disks for that
a maclink plus disk
disk tools for 7.5

ok, disk tools is what you were talking about so maybe i already have that?

sorry, i'm seriously completly ignorant when it comes to macs.

You might just need to prepare/partition the drive with "HardDrive Setup" / "HDSC Setup" on the Disk Tools disk (I don't recall which comes with OS7), you can think of this as FDISK for a Mac. This is the part that would have trouble with non-apple drives, it can be patched to use non-apple drives, there's info out on the net on how to do this, or you can use 3rd party partition software (fwb toolkit) to do this.

oblivion
August 27th, 2012, 10:48 AM
well, i tried disk tools and I got "unable to locate a suitable SCSI drive" so at this point either theres a real issue with the SE/30 or my mac 40mb drive is not working. I cant test the 3rd party drive because i have no way to download apple software/patches from the internet and format them for an old mac. so i guess i either need to find an old internet capible mac cheap or anouther old apple hard drive to test.

RWallmow
August 27th, 2012, 11:18 AM
well, i tried disk tools and I got "unable to locate a suitable SCSI drive" so at this point either theres a real issue with the SE/30 or my mac 40mb drive is not working. I cant test the 3rd party drive because i have no way to download apple software/patches from the internet and format them for an old mac. so i guess i either need to find an old internet capible mac cheap or anouther old apple hard drive to test.

You could try installing the Executor Mac emulator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executor_(software)) on your PC, if you have a floppy drive on your PC, you should be able to write out disk images, and copy over 3rd party or hacked software too (you can probably perform the hacks on the apple util from it too). I have a copy of setupexecutor.exe on my server (http://acrpc.net/utils/) complete with the serial code (it was released as free software in about 2006).

That said, you may very well have some SCSI issues, not software issues, if its not seeing the apple branded one, that or the apple branded one is dead. Is the drive terminated? Does it use terminating resistor packs? or is there a termination jumper on the drive you can set? Could you maybe take a photo of the board side of the apple drive so we can see jumper settings, and presence or lack of terminating resistor packs?

bibilit
August 27th, 2012, 12:13 PM
Can be a problem with the disk,or probably just software related.

Try Lido 7 (Scsi formatter) can "see" a 3rd party disk.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/lido7.html

You can probably also use Transmac with a Win$ machine to create the floppy you need:

http://www.asy.com/sharetm.htm

Good luck.

oblivion
August 27th, 2012, 01:38 PM
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1576/ad2u.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/ad2u.jpg/)

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5158/ad1r.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/209/ad1r.jpg/)

oblivion
August 27th, 2012, 02:46 PM
Can be a problem with the disk,or probably just software related.

Try Lido 7 (Scsi formatter) can "see" a 3rd party disk.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/lido7.html

You can probably also use Transmac with a Win$ machine to create the floppy you need:

http://www.asy.com/sharetm.htm

Good luck.

used a mac emulator and copied lido 7 to a disk on my pc. the mac recagnized it when i booted into system 7 but it gave an application not found error. is that a good link? its only 197kb and seems to just be a sort of text file.

RWallmow
August 28th, 2012, 03:33 AM
used a mac emulator and copied lido 7 to a disk on my pc. the mac recagnized it when i booted into system 7 but it gave an application not found error. is that a good link? its only 197kb and seems to just be a sort of text file.

You would probably have to download it INSIDE the emulator, downloading on a PC, then copying to emulator, then copying to mac disk will almost certainly destroy the file and or its resource forks.

Looks like your drive has the terminating resistors installed on it, and is set to SCSI ID 0 (typical proper setting for HD), and it looks like EP is jumpered for "Parity checking", which I don't think would make a difference, but you could always try it without.

I am not seeing any reason your SE/30 should not see this drive, and if this drive is apple ROM, with apple logo sticker on top you should not need a 3rd party utility to see it, it should just work with the disktools included. I would start leaning to bad capacitors as has been suspected from the start. Bad capacitors can manifest in many ways, I have seen them cause the floppy to quit working, the SCSI to quit working, and most often and usually first to go is the sound to quit working. Even if there are no visible signs of them leaking, the capacitors can fail. My SE/30 board looked clean as a whistle but its sound and floppy were dead, bad caps were the cause.

oblivion
August 28th, 2012, 09:30 AM
hmmm, i may send the board out to get recapped then which is probibly a good idea anyways.
heres a shot of the board
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5750/1004263r.jpg

patscc
August 28th, 2012, 10:14 AM
They don't seem to look that bad. Is the PRAM battery still good ?
patscc

oblivion
August 28th, 2012, 10:37 AM
They don't seem to look that bad. Is the PRAM battery still good ?
patscc

don't know. could it be causeing an issue with the scsi?

also, is there sound in Tetris for the mac? I assume there is but i'm asking because when i start the mac up i get the chime, so i hear that but (after a load of disk swapping between tetris and the boot disk) i loaded up Tetris but there was no sound/music and yes sound was checked in the options. so maybe thats more evidence to a cap issue.

RWallmow
August 29th, 2012, 07:49 AM
don't know. could it be causeing an issue with the scsi?
Anything is possible, but most old Macs I have dealt with will still boot to a SCSI drive even with a bad PRAM battery, only ever had newer (Open Firmware) Macs that wouldn't boot with bad battery (my beige G3 for example).

patscc
August 29th, 2012, 07:59 AM
Oblivion, what do you have in the way of test equipment ?
patscc

oblivion
August 29th, 2012, 11:48 AM
Oblivion, what do you have in the way of test equipment ?
patscc

not much, i don't even have anouther mac to test the drives on. i recently moved cross country and 90% of my stuff is in storage 2000 miles away. i have a multimeter i barely know how to use but as far as testing equipment thats about it. I did find a friend thats willing to recap the entire board for me though. looking at the board it looks like part of it was recapped at one point in the past.

bibilit
August 29th, 2012, 11:55 AM
@ oblivion,

Yes you board has been already recapped in the past. (C8/C9/C10/C13 seems to be original, but not 100% sure)

RWallmow
August 29th, 2012, 12:32 PM
@ oblivion,

Yes you board has been already recapped in the past. (C8/C9/C10/C13 seems to be original, but not 100% sure)

Nice catch, I didn't even notice that C3-C7 do all look new the first time I looked at the photo. The axials at C2 and C11 could go either way just like the aluminums at C3/C8/C10/C13, you just cant tell from photo if they are new or old, would almost have to see the soldering on them in detail to tell if its wave/oven/machine or hand soldered.

Even though 3-7 were replaced at one point, there is no telling how long ago that was, these things started showing signs of this failure in the late 90's-early 00's (depending on machines usage history), so its not impossible you could have a cap-fix that's well over a decade old, and could be due again.

oblivion
August 30th, 2012, 10:03 PM
ordered the caps, once my friend recaps the board and i fire it up i'll let you guys know how it goes.

oblivion
October 3rd, 2012, 12:27 AM
well, appears it was a bad apple hard drive. i had the board recapped and had the same issue then about 3 days ago i aquired a working macintosh classic. i pulled out the hdd from the classic, stuck it in the se/30 and it worked fine. I would still like a larger hard drive in the se/30 though so my new question is.

1) apperently the macs were made to only use apple branded hard drives. so will I have no issues if i used a much larger later apple hard drive (few gigs) from a later macintosh?

2) i have a confirmed working 3rd party hard drive (NOT apple branded) but I cant get it to work. I tried running Lido 7.56 from a floppy after using a system 7 boot disk but all i get is "LIDO75~SEA" could not be opened, because the application program that created it could not be found

RWallmow
October 3rd, 2012, 03:46 AM
well, appears it was a bad apple hard drive. i had the board recapped and had the same issue then about 3 days ago i aquired a working macintosh classic. i pulled out the hdd from the classic, stuck it in the se/30 and it worked fine. I would still like a larger hard drive in the se/30 though so my new question is.

1) apperently the macs were made to only use apple branded hard drives. so will I have no issues if i used a much larger later apple hard drive (few gigs) from a later macintosh?
Yes, any SCSI "Apple ROM" hard drive should be seen by the computer, no problems, no hassle, no fuss (assuming SCSI ID and Termination are right).


2) i have a confirmed working 3rd party hard drive (NOT apple branded) but I cant get it to work. I tried running Lido 7.56 from a floppy after using a system 7 boot disk but all i get is "LIDO75~SEA" could not be opened, because the application program that created it could not be found

SEA is a compressed file, you will need Stuffit Expander on your mac to open this file to extract the actual LIDO program from it. You can probably extract LIDO using the Executor emulator I spoke of in an earlier post, I am pretty sure it includes Stuffit, then you should be able to write the extracted executable to a 1.44mb mac formatted disk in executor.

You can also patch the stock Apple disk utility to format MOST non-Apple drives. I would say the patched apple one will format about 80% of SCSI drives and LIDO will format about 99% of SCSI drives. I have run into a few instances where neither one would work though (the time LIDO didn't even do the trick I was trying to format an IDE device, on a SCSI to IDE bridge). "FWB Toolkit" is another great program for formatting non-apple drives, it actually worked with my IDE>SCSI bridge setup, but its not 100% either, I have had drives not work with it, that did work with LIDO, so YMMV.

As you can see there's sadly no fool proof way to format non-apple ROM drives in a classic Mac, but with the scarce availability of apple drives, and abundance of non-apple drives, its something most of us classic mac users deal with frequently. I think once you get your copy of LIDO extracted from that SEA file, you will probably find it will format most drives you come across.