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atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 01:55 AM
OK, before I start, let me tell you about my system. It's has a PIII CPU, 256MB of RAM, a fully tweakable BIOS (Voltage, Bus Speed, Multiplier, ect...), & minimal cooling (This will change next Friday); Just 2 fans on the CPU cartridge. The CPU speed is set to 3x135MHz=405MHz, as it was for 5+ years. My motherboard has a CPU Tempurature alarm, set to 194F. The CPU tempurature averaged around 178F before I did what I'm about to say below.

I felt my CPU's heatsink & fans needed a long-needed cleaning. I removed the cartridge from the case, removed the twisty sheet metal holding the cartridge together from the back, removed the plastic & heatsink from the CPU PCB, removed the fans from the heatsink, & then removed ounces of dust from the heatsink & fans.

After that, I reassembled everything, & now the CPU gets freaking hotter! WTF is going on!?

If it matters, I moved my 256MB RAM PCB from DIMM2 to DIMM1 (Closer to the CPU cartridge).

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 01:59 AM
Between the heatsink and fan is usually a layer of coolant paste, it probably needs replacing since you've taken it all apart and broken the seal.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 02:09 AM
Ah, good point. There's no coolant on this one, but one of those metallic-sticker things. You know what? I think I know what the problem is. I think the CPU just has to adapt to the new position the sticker-thing's in, kinda like how you can't do some serious overclocking on a CPU for the first couple hours/days when you replace the coolant.

Everything seems fine now that I (Minimalized?) my Bus Speed (I forget what to). My CPU is running at somewhere around 375MHz now, & the alarm isn't going off. I think I'll leave my computer on for the night & then set my bus speed back to 135MHz tommorrow afternoon. (...& then set it higher next weekend, after I install a case fan, & maybe some new CPU Coolant (But then I'd have to wait another day for it to settle in...))

So, back to the question I asked in another thread: How hot is too hot? I need a good number to set my Tempurature alarm to.

alexkerhead
June 4th, 2006, 02:33 AM
Go get some thermal compound, doesn't matter what kind with a P3. Radio shack has some low grade stuff that will do fine.

Jorg
June 4th, 2006, 02:34 AM
You can use the stickers just once!

Best would be to remove the heatsink, clean the cpu surface and heatsink surface with a soft (but not fluffy!) cloth and some alcohol.

Then put a drop (not more) of coolant paste on the CPU before replacing the heatsink.

Your describing that you only have the CPU cooled. Do you know how high the case temperature gets? That might also be a reason the cpu cooler has limited functionality.

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 02:36 AM
Yes, those sticky pads are a use-once application. Do as Jorg suggests, and also put the settings back to standard.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 02:41 AM
Well 1: I don't know what the actual/official speed of the CPU is, & 2: It's not a sticky sticker, It's completely dry! The CPU left an imprint on it though...

Also, I plan to do some serious overclocking, so I'm planning to get some high-grade coolant paste.

My BIOS also tells me the tempurature of the case itself; I think it was around 100-110F the last time I checked.
(By the way, I'm using the same computer right now; the alarm hasn't gone off at all w/ the Bus Speed minimized)

alexkerhead
June 4th, 2006, 03:26 AM
It would be a waste of time to overclock a p3, coppermines never do more than 300 over on expensive cooling, and I doubt you have a tualitan.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 03:49 AM
Trust me, I use my PC to the limit. Even w/ my CPU speed minimized to 375MHz, I manage hang my computer (Everything; not just an app) Even when I boot up, you can already see the 30MHz difference. At 405MHz, the logon window would show for about .2 seconds, and at 375MHz, it stays for about 1.

How to I tell if it's a Coppermine or a Tualitan?

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 04:01 AM
They usually have the speed written on them... But I would agree that you are wasting your time trying to overclock it, more harm than good IMHO.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 04:08 AM
So you're saying that it's pointless to get probobly 50-200MHz more out of my PC ,speed that I need for my emulators to not hang, when I have no money at all?


& on the IC's next to the CPU, it had "300 MHz" printed on them, & my motherboard doesn't go that low. I can't seem to find any documentation on telling whether I have a Coppermine or a Tualitan...

alexkerhead
June 4th, 2006, 04:46 AM
www.cpuid.com
download cpuz.
Run it, it will tell you everything,
You might even have a katmai, the oldest pIII core.
Katmai was 450MHz-1.13GHz slot pentium 3 cpu's
Coppermine was 650MHz-1.1Ghz socketed or slotted pentium 3 cpu's
tualitan was 1GHz-1.4GHz socketed pentium 3 cpu's
I dont feel like searching the specifics, but that is a general synopsis.
Kaymai's have 512KB cache, Coppermines have 256KB cache, tualitans have 512KB.
The tualitan was high end workstation/servers
Coppermine was end user and high end machines.
Katmais are very slow for their clock speeds.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 05:01 AM
Sadly, it's a Katmai. I guess this is why my favorite P&C game, "The Longest Journey", always had framerate issues...

Is this CPU worth overclocking? & what speed do you guys think I should run it at w/ the current cooling I suggested? (My computer has run long enough for it to resettle into the sticker enough I think..)

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 05:04 AM
Also, I just noticed, CPU-Z says my multiplier is set to 4 (as opposed to 3) & the bus speed is 123MHz! The CPU is running at 495MHz!!! The BIOS is set to 375MHz!!! WTF!?

Jorg
June 4th, 2006, 05:15 AM
Is your CPU a 266 Mhz one by any chance (4x66 Mhz)?

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 05:23 AM
So you're saying that it's pointless to get probobly 50-200MHz more out of my PC ,speed that I need for my emulators to not hang, when I have no money at all?

Yup :) Since you will end up with a fairly unstable and overheating system and the end of the day, it might not even last too long.

Best to find out what speeds your mainboard can support - low-end Pentium processors go for next to nothing on eBay. You could probably sell your existing processor for more or less the same price as a slightly faster one.

Whatever you choose to do, you'll need to get some thermal paste for the processor, that sticker really is not going to do the job properly now you've reused it.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 05:39 AM
Well can you at least tell me what tempurature to set my alarm to? I want to see how fast I can get it w/ the current cooling, & then after a case fan & some thermal paste, I'll set it higher.

mbbrutman
June 4th, 2006, 06:23 AM
Don't bother overclocking:


Running hot (whether overheating or not) shortens the live of the components
The actual speed bump is usually neglible, as most of the bottleneck in a modern machine is in waiting for memory, disk, network traffic, etc.
When your machine starts computing incorrect results, you may or may not notice the difference. That's acceptable for gaming, but really not cool if it trashes the filesystem on your disk.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 06:33 AM
Seriously, why would I worry about shortening the lifespan of my PIII!? This is the slowest modern CPU I have! It's over 5 years old! If it dies, I'll just put in another of my various MotherBoards & CPU's! (Heck, I have a Dual-PIII Proxy server in my room gathering dust!) & I have no worries for my data! All that's on my HD is Win2000, some emulators, OS Updates, & Mozilla FF! I don't need anymore warnings about how I'm not gonna gain anything or how it might damage my system! I just want to get some extra speed, even if it's 50MHz, out of my existing hardware!

(Damn, it's like speaking to a scratched up record!)

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 06:44 AM
http://www.howard81.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 07:07 AM
Erik's host's bandwidth completely dropped there for like 10 minutes...Wierd...

Anywho, I've browsed many forums & I can't seem to get a good solid number on how hot my CPU should be...

mbbrutman
June 4th, 2006, 07:19 AM
Seriously, why would I worry about shortening the lifespan of my PIII!? This is the slowest modern CPU I have! It's over 5 years old! If it dies, I'll just put in another of my various MotherBoards & CPU's! (Heck, I have a Dual-PIII Proxy server in my room gathering dust!) & I have no worries for my data! All that's on my HD is Win2000, some emulators, OS Updates, & Mozilla FF! I don't need anymore warnings about how I'm not gonna gain anything or how it might damage my system! I just want to get some extra speed, even if it's 50MHz, out of my existing hardware!

(Damn, it's like speaking to a scratched up record!)


If you want to trash stuff, there are better groups of people to ask for advice. The people here generally like to keep things running for a good long time so that it makes it to vintage.

By the way, you're still not going to notice a 50Mhz jump. Most of your time is spent waiting for memory or disk. Your time would be better spent elsewhere, like say, reading a book that teaches you the basics about these things.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 07:51 AM
I've stated before, I've already noticed the drop from 405MHz to 375MHz. My HD is no more than 3 years old, & my RAM's maximum Bus speed is 133MHz. If I set the Bus speed to 133MHz & the Multiplier to 3.5, I'd be getting 95MHz more than I'm getting now. With some good cooling, I could set the multiplier to 4 & get 532MHz, still 2 MHz short of officially overclocking. This would be enough for my emulators to work well w/o framerate issues.


...& all I ask in this thread is the simple awnser of what would be a good CPU Tempurature Alarm setting, & yet I've gotten no awnser...

carlsson
June 4th, 2006, 08:09 AM
375 MHz sounds like 5 x 75 MHz? What is the CPU rated, and are your RAM chips PC-133 or better?

I googled for "pentium 3 temperature" and found these links. The latter document goes down to 450 MHz SECC2. As you can see, no Pentium III processor is recommended to have a core temperature above 90C (195F), so if your board reads 250F, the CPU is cooking.

http://www.yak.net/fqa/290.html
http://www.casecooler.com/temandvolgui.html

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 08:34 AM
I never said it went that high, I just said that the alarm's capable of going that high. This is good, seing that I have my alarm set to 194F. I looked up my CPU, & it's limit is 90C. I forgot the equation to convert C to F, so what's 90C in F?

Also, again, the manufacturors speed is 533MHz. (4x133MHz maybe?)

mbbrutman
June 4th, 2006, 08:51 AM
A 500Mhz CPU operates at 500 million operations per second. That's a new operation every 2 nanoseconds.

Memory latency is generally in the 10s of nanoseconds.

Hard disks, even the newest, are orders of magnitude slower than memory.

The net result - your computer, even when overclocked, spends most of it's time waiting for memory or disk. Even with a big cache on the chip. There just isn't much point in overclocking.

You just don't bump the clock speed and expect a big difference. That's not the way things work. There are plenty of web sites and books that explain how CPUs and memory work together.

Vlad
June 4th, 2006, 09:08 AM
The only way to get something like that to work is if your Hard Drive used Fiber Channel or something near the HPC end of things. As for RAM, you would need RDRAM, DDR2, or XDR for that to work. So in the end, a Pentium III really isn't worth the trouble of over clocking. Only really High end stuff can overclock and show that drastic of an improvement.......

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 09:10 AM
...& I'm not expecting a big difference. You have to realize that my CPU is (& has been) running about 150MHz lower than what Intel intended it to be. I'm not trying to overclock it 500MHz or create some mutant supercomputer or something, I'm just trying to get it to it's original speed & maybe exceed it. The current speed of the CPU isn't capable of even playing StarFox on an SNES emulator correctly!!

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 09:20 AM
well you didn't say that to begin with........ http://www.howard81.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

what is the STANDARD speed for your CPU?

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 09:28 AM
For the 2305564855705745505709573457345079th time, it's 533MHz!!!!!

& I just learned EVERYTHING I need to know about overclocking within the past 18 hours. Until less than 5 hours ago, I didn't even know what the standard speed of my CPU was!

Terry Yager
June 4th, 2006, 09:32 AM
18 hours? Wow, you're good!

--T

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 09:36 AM
Yeah, I'm cool like that...

mbbrutman
June 4th, 2006, 10:01 AM
Let's recap this thread:


Well 1: I don't know what the actual/official speed of the CPU is, & 2: It's not a sticky sticker, It's completely dry! The CPU left an imprint on it though...

Also, I plan to do some serious overclocking, so I'm planning to get some high-grade coolant paste.

Ok, so we've established that you are going to do some overclocking.


Trust me, I use my PC to the limit. Even w/ my CPU speed minimized to 375MHz, I manage hang my computer (Everything; not just an app) Even when I boot up, you can already see the 30MHz difference. At 405MHz, the logon window would show for about .2 seconds, and at 375MHz, it stays for about 1.

A 30Mhz difference made that one step in your boot process 5 times faster? Do you think that is believable or realistic using any sort of math?


Also, again, the manufacturors speed is 533MHz. (4x133MHz maybe?)

Funny use of the word 'again'. This is the first time you ever mention the speed of the CPU, which you didn't know at the start of this thread.


For the 2305564855705745505709573457345079th time, it's 533MHz!!!!!

& I just learned EVERYTHING I need to know about overclocking within the past 18 hours. Until less than 5 hours ago, I didn't even know what the standard speed of my CPU was!

I counted 2 times. Now you are just being plain rude.

I'm going to speak for a few level headed people when I make the following points:


Don't ask for help then turn rude when people give it to you.
Don't be suprised if people here are against the artificial shortening of a computer's lifespan.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 10:25 AM
I apoligize. There was a dog barking at me all night, which was giving me a bad headache. I had a little trouble thinking straight. Plus, I didn't know much about my CPU when I started the thread; All I knew was that it was a PIII & that the BIOS was running it at 405MHz. I believe I mentioned 533MHz more than twice, at least 3 times. Today I MIGHT go to RadioShack, so that might give me some time to buy Thermal Coolant & a Chassis fan(I probobly have one somewhere at my otherhouse).

mbbrutman
June 4th, 2006, 10:38 AM
I think the thing for you to do is to get it running at it's proper rated speed, and if it can't, find out the definitive reason why.

And that, we can help you with. :-)

Go get some sleep first!

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 10:44 AM
Never!!!!! (I'll probobly make it to 1-2PM today) Well for some reason my WLAN card's acting up (or it might just be my router), so I'm off my PIII for now.

Terry Yager
June 4th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Yeah, I'm cool like that...

Perhaps you could share with the rest of us some of the links you've been studying, so that we too can learn everything there is to know about overclocking. (Hell, with my highly-evolved intellectual capacity, I might even be able to shave it down to a mere 36-or-so hours).

--T

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Well, I said everything I NEEDED to know, not everything. I think the reason Terry Yager reacted was because I went from zero to semi-hero in -18 hours.

Google is your friend, & my friend too! I just searched things like "how to overclock" (w/ the quote marks) If there's anything I know that you don't, I'd be suprised! An example of the deph of my knowledge of overclocking is something like don't srew around with the voltage if you're dealing with an AMD processor. I'd be really suprised if I knew something you didn't!

Terry Yager
June 4th, 2006, 11:28 AM
Actually, I'm kinda vintage computer-centric, so I have very little knowledge of modern systems, let alone overclocking them. My most up-to-date computer is a 300MHz P-II.

--T

Terry Yager
June 4th, 2006, 11:34 AM
...and, no...my reaction is not out of envy for your superior learning ability, but more of a knee-jerk at percieved rudeness towards people who are genuinely trying to help you. If rudeness was not your intention, then I beg your forgiveness...

--T

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Again, I apoligize if I was rude. Just that damn dog....

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 12:10 PM
stop digging for excuses by blaming the dog, just apologise and we'll be happy to help :)

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 12:10 PM
Crap I just realized, There's a CPU heatsync/fan in the attic, I could've taken the fan off of it & used it as a chassis fan! (Now there's a car parked under the attic ladder...)

Terry Yager
June 4th, 2006, 12:59 PM
stop digging for excuses by blaming the dog, just apologise and we'll be happy to help :)

I'm kewl with it...

--T

dongfeng
June 4th, 2006, 01:09 PM
Things to do:

1. Get some thermal paste and restick the CPU
2. Set the BIOS settings to 533MHz
3. THEN monitor your motherboard temperature

You might find that Windows 98SE would run better on your system (especially under load), 2000 seems to struggle slightly on 256MB. Especially for games, you want all the available memory you can get!

carlsson
June 4th, 2006, 01:50 PM
I forgot the equation to convert C to F, so what's 90C in F?
F = 32 + (C*1.80) or the other way around: C = (F-32)/1.80.

90C is exactly 194F, so you had the conversion made already.


the manufacturors speed is 533MHz. (4x133MHz maybe?)
Yes, 4x133 sounds likely. I don't think Intel ever made any 8x66 MHz processors, at least not according to the processor specs at Geek.com.

Is there a marking on the SDRAM modules? Maybe they're only PC-66 or PC-100 and therefore the computer was clocked down from 4x133 to 4x66 (266 MHz) or 4x100 (400 MHz). Perhaps the RAM modules are of different makes, so one would function at 133 MHz bus, but the other would just make the computer crash. You'll have to test it, unless you can read the codes. Here is a site with a lot of information. Identify hardware by type, select RAM chip and follow the guide. Most, but not all brands of RAM chips are covered.

http://www.plasma-online.de/

Mad-Mike
June 4th, 2006, 02:08 PM
Things to do:

1. Get some thermal paste and restick the CPU
2. Set the BIOS settings to 533MHz
3. THEN monitor your motherboard temperature

You might find that Windows 98SE would run better on your system (especially under load), 2000 seems to struggle slightly on 256MB. Especially for games, you want all the available memory you can get!

I'm with him on Windows 98SE, I had Postal 2 Running on my 667 MHz PIII at full framerate on 416MB of RAM. I can't believe that 256K would be max for a PIII motherboard. I kicked mine up around 512MB just a few weeks ago (RAM is CHEEEP here in Seattle, I dunno why). Actually, sometime this week I'm getting a 1GHz CPU in for this thing. I also use ZSNES (that or SNES9X, I can't remember which) using the Eagle Scaler and Stereo Audio and all the bells and whistles and it works fine.

The key to keeping a Pentium III really cool is Thermal Paste. When I first put the 667 and the board together, mine was going up to 175 degrees according to Intel Active Monitor. I was using a Pentium 200 MMX heatsink (which I'm still using), so I swapped it out with a Slot 1 PIII heatsink, which brought the temp down, so I figured if I could aid the heat transfer, I'd fix it, so I added some heatsink grease and it fixed the problem perfectly. Just recently I used up my unusable slot with one of those expansion slot cooling fans, this sucker is REALLY stable now.

alexkerhead
June 4th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Jorg, I don't believe there was a P3 under 450MHz..
Atari, Katmai's wont overclock more than avout 20-50MHz before coming unstable.
What you could do is, get a socket 370 to slot on conversion card and pm me about a free 800MHz P3 and load it on one of those boards. They are like $10.

DimensionDude
June 4th, 2006, 06:39 PM
Another useful cooling tip is to polish the heatsink where it contacts the cpu. I use 400 grit sandpaper, wet. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface (glass is best) and move the heatsink in a figure 8 pattern. It doesn't have to be a mirror finish, but the smoother, the better.

This brought the idle temp of an AMD XP 3200+ from 115F to 90F. Max load temp went from 149F to 135F.

Kent

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 08:11 PM
By the way, I was thinking about putting an old hd in my computer to set the PageFile to. How much will this speed things up?

alexkerhead
June 4th, 2006, 09:15 PM
Another useful cooling tip is to polish the heatsink where it contacts the cpu. I use 400 grit sandpaper, wet. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface (glass is best) and move the heatsink in a figure 8 pattern. It doesn't have to be a mirror finish, but the smoother, the better.

This brought the idle temp of an AMD XP 3200+ from 115F to 90F. Max load temp went from 149F to 135F.

Kent
lol, I don't believe a katmai p3 is worth the trouble.
It is called lapping.

atari2600a
June 4th, 2006, 11:50 PM
Yeah, I saw this done on The Screen Savers, back when TechTV wan't taken over by G4. That same week they also showed their modded CD-ROM & Hard Drives (They cut patterns/images into the drives cases, put transperant plastic under it, & put in blue LEDs)

alexkerhead
June 5th, 2006, 01:40 AM
Yeah, I used to be into overclocking and modding, got tired of it though, too expensive.

Here is one of my units I won second place in a local computer show with.
AMD 2400XP@2.4GHz - @2Ghz stock
http://www.gallery.ubertechworld.com/albums/userpics/10002/P3060040.JPG
The images were taken before I cleaned the wiring up, but it gives you an idea.
The second cd rom is a fake for wire hiding and such.

Here is my daily machine. P4 3.06GHz@3.45GHz
http://www.gallery.ubertechworld.com/albums/userpics/10002/PIC00001%7E9.jpg

Here is my current server(dual P3) 2xP3 1GHz's
Side on
http://www.gallery.ubertechworld.com/albums/userpics/10002/PIC00004%7E7.jpg
Side off
http://www.gallery.ubertechworld.com/albums/userpics/10002/PIC00006%7E2.jpg

Here is my main dos machine AMD K-6 500MHz@550MHz
side view
http://www.gallery.ubertechworld.com/albums/userpics/10002/PIC00005.jpg
Front drives view.
http://www.gallery.ubertechworld.com/albums/userpics/10002/PIC00004.jpg

I have about five or six more "pimped out" machines.
I don't recommend bothering with it though, I almost got myself sunk into big debt with that hobby.

NathanAllan
June 5th, 2006, 06:49 AM
Atari, if you put an older harddrive as the place for the pagefile then it might slow it down some (older means slower transfer rates). If you wanna do that, figure out how to use some kind of memory card or flash ram based drive. I did something like that with a pcmcia based flash card and the system speeded up tremendously. If you can find an adapter for a pci slot that sounds best. Win didn't like it so I would have to keep resettign it but when it was set there it flew. With a memory card, there is no spin-up. And it gets warm, too so you'd need to make sure there is good airflow. About your case fans, that's all well and good, but don't forget an exhaust fan. Lots of fans that blow in arre fine but it has to have somewhere to go, like, out. What kind of graphics does it have? See if you can put in some kind of graphics board to take the load off the main processor.

carlsson
June 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM
Speaking about Pentium III, I just browsed Tradera and saw a 800 MHz kit: motherboard, CPU, some memory and optional power supply. Current bid 12 SEK ($1.70) with just a few days to go, plus the dreadful shipping. However it is from a branded computer (Fujitsu-Siemens), but I think they have less own solutions than other brands. Not that I really need one and it could be DOA. If the seller was local though..

Mad-Mike
June 5th, 2006, 01:20 PM
Speaking about Pentium III, I just browsed Tradera and saw a 800 MHz kit: motherboard, CPU, some memory and optional power supply. Current bid 12 SEK ($1.70) with just a few days to go, plus the dreadful shipping. However it is from a branded computer (Fujitsu-Siemens), but I think they have less own solutions than other brands. Not that I really need one and it could be DOA. If the seller was local though..

I would not go for it. I had a Fujitsu/Siemens Socket 370 ATX board I put into a customer's computer upon request about 3 years ago, that board was NOTHING but trouble from the start. It would refuse to boot sometimes, and it had issues with it's on-board graphics adapter too (and using a GeForce on top of it).

atari2600a
June 5th, 2006, 02:51 PM
I'm using an nVidia TNT2 Model 64. I know nothing about it & it's running on a driver supplied by Win2000. I searched nvidia.com for ForceWare (Release 70) for it, but it wouldn't recognize it. Is an TNT2 Model 64 good? If not, I'm thinking about going to my local surplus to pick up a dual-VGA AGP card.

Today I'm gonna try to find 2 fans for my case. I've read in an overclocking forum about this guy who put a fan on the front of his case, then made a (Tube? Tunnel? Funnel?) out of carboard that, tightly fitted, went from the chassis fan to his CPU fan. He claimed it to have dropped the tempurature to 40-something degrees ferinheit. Does this sound realistic to you guys?

PCI flash does sound like a good idea, a very expensive idea... How about this: I add another 256MB to my PC, so I have 512MB, & then turn off the PageFile. Does that sound like a good idea?

alexkerhead
June 5th, 2006, 03:27 PM
Is an TNT2 Model 64 good?
For internet and text? yes
For games newer than 2000? no

atari2600a
June 5th, 2006, 03:47 PM
So do you think I should buy a dual-VGA AGP card to replace it, or should I use a PCI VGA card? (I really want a dual-monitor setup)

I shouldn't be playing any 3D-heavy games on it, mainly Point-&-Click Adventure games like Syberia Sam&Max & The Longest Journey, & some emulators (SNES/Genesis & below, &, if my card can take it, maybe N64/PSX)

I just got my hands on my MotherBoard's manual, & it says that my memory should be installed starting at DIMM4. It's been int DIMM2 for 5 years. Is this bad?

mbbrutman
June 5th, 2006, 04:28 PM
Today I'm gonna try to find 2 fans for my case. I've read in an overclocking forum about this guy who put a fan on the front of his case, then made a (Tube? Tunnel? Funnel?) out of carboard that, tightly fitted, went from the chassis fan to his CPU fan. He claimed it to have dropped the tempurature to 40-something degrees ferinheit. Does this sound realistic to you guys?


No, not unless the machine was in a refrigerator first.

A fan and heat sink can only help make a device as cool as the air blowing across it. If the room temperature is 72F, all of the fans in creation won't get the temperature of the CPU down to 71F.

DimensionDude
June 5th, 2006, 04:30 PM
He claimed it to have dropped the tempurature to 40-something degrees ferinheit. Does this sound realistic to you guys?




Wow, does he keep his computer inside a refrigerator? Perhaps he dropped the cpu temp BY 40F, say from 130F to 90F. It's possible, I suppose, if the room was rather cool. As I mentioned earlier, my Athlon 3200+ now idles at 91F with room temp being about 76F. And this is actually with a physically smaller heatsink, but a better fan. A bit noisy, but I can live with it if my computer is stable.

Kent

atari2600a
June 5th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Hm, well any opinions on whether I should install 256MB more RAM & cut off the PageFile, or whether I should replace the Graphics card with a dual-VGA one or just install a PCI VGA card?

Terry Yager
June 5th, 2006, 04:56 PM
No, not unless the machine was in a refrigerator first.

A fan and heat sink can only help make a device as cool as the air blowing across it. If the room temperature is 72F, all of the fans in creation won't get the temperature of the CPU down to 71F.

According to the laws of thermodynamics, you won't even be able to bring the temperature in the wake of the fan all the way down to exactly 72F, there'll always be a certain amount of loss (entropy).

--T

carlsson
June 5th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Dual head is overrated, IMHO. Unless you work with video editing, some form of DTP/3D modelling or other application requiring big windows open, two displays next to eachother is only annoying.

RAM or a swap file? Well, they don't fill the same function. If you want to put the swap on a separate disk, maybe you can find a reasonably fast 8-10 GB disk to add to your system. IIRC, Windows 98 can't utilize more than 256 MB in an efficient way anyhow, but maybe you are using 2000 or XP.. Did you check the current SDRAM modules which speed they are certified for, if you're going to reset the settings to obtain the original 533 MHz? Maybe you'll find a boost in speed going from ~400 to 533 and getting compatible SDRAMs. Once you have PC-133 and have checked which CPUs your motherboard supports, you could go out shopping for e.g. Pentium III 800 or 1000 MHz or higher as you wish.

atari2600a
June 5th, 2006, 05:34 PM
Well though I do do video editing & other things that require large windows, I won't be using my PIII for it. Maybe Macromedia Director MX 2004 might work at 533MHz, but not Adobe Premiere!

I do, however, plan to do alot of HTML programming on this machine. Having a dual monitor setup will make things easier, since I wouldn't have to keep maximizing & minimizing my Firefox &/or Notepad window.

atari2600a
June 6th, 2006, 06:43 AM
Semi-Great news! After just recently skimming through my Motherboard's manual, I realized that I don't have one or two jumpers set properly! Do you know what this means!? My CPU is still locked! This means that my CPU was running at standard speed the whole time! It wasn't set to 3x133MHz, it was at 4x133MHz! The only reason CPU-Z says my CPU is running at 495MHz was because the bus speed was 124MHz!

alexkerhead
June 6th, 2006, 07:09 AM
PM me if you want me to send you a 1ghz celeron or something. all you would need is a slocket card(slot 1 card with socket 370 socket.)

NathanAllan
June 6th, 2006, 07:58 AM
Atari, about the pagefile being on a flashcard it really isn't that expensive. It's old technology and I found it all at geeks.com for less than $100 after you add it all up.

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=CF_ADP-DT&cpc=SCH&srm=0

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=JJ-PC1012-DT&cpc=SCH&srm=0

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=SDCFB-512-R&cpc=SCH&srm=0

32.00+11.00+17.00=50.00 for pci pcmcia adapter, pcmcia-flash card adapter, and the 512mb flash card. The stuff's been around for a long time and isn't hot caca anymore. Long way to get to the barn but it works. The prices I quoted are rounded up and doesn't include shipping, though. Just a thought for ya. I did my swapfile experiment on a laptop that already had a pcmcia slot.

Nathan

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2006, 08:35 AM
Semi-Great news! After just recently skimming through my Motherboard's manual<snip>!

When all else fails...

--T

carlsson
June 6th, 2006, 10:30 AM
495 MHz? I thought you said 405 MHz earlier in this thread. In any case, if the motherboard is supposed to support higher bus speeds, try to figure out why it was clocked down. Maybe SDRAMs are functional with a bit of overclocking, but not all the way to 133 MHz. I can not stress enough number of times the importance of understanding that running on a higher bus speed than the memory is designed for can be a big risk for crashes.

atari2600a
June 6th, 2006, 11:40 AM
I thought it was at 405MHz, but remember that the CPU was locked & I didn't realize that! The whole time, the Multiplier was at 4, when I thought it was at 3! It's running at 496MHz because it was overheating (Remember?) & I turned down the clock speed. (For all n00bs, clock speed isn't locked by the CPU)

Also, why did you buy a PCMCIA-tO-PCI adapter & then buy a PCMCIA-To-CF adapter when you could of just gotten a PCI-To-CF adapter? (Yes, they make those now)

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2006, 12:07 PM
...or, just install a PCI<-->USB card and one of those 8-in-one card readers. ('Round here, we use SD/MMC, CF, SmartMedia, as well as straight PCMCIA Flash, so that seems to be a good solution for about the same cost (cheep!)).

--T

atari2600a
June 6th, 2006, 12:38 PM
That would be too slow & unreliable for a something like the PageFile, since the system is ALWAYS writing & reading to/from it.

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2006, 12:56 PM
I dunno, the USB-to-flash setup I use is still faster than a mechanical hard drive (at least, the older ones that I'm familliar with).

--T

atari2600a
June 6th, 2006, 01:03 PM
Yes, but the data would have to go through too much unneccissary IC's before it'd got to/from the CF card. I mean, If it was going through USB, I minus well be using a thumb drive!

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2006, 01:10 PM
...and, for the options generally available, (live RAM, cache Ram, VM), the VM or 'pagefile' is accessed the least often.

--T

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2006, 01:13 PM
Going thru hunderds of ICs is still faster than a hard drive. The real bottleneck is the USB itself.

--T

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2006, 01:18 PM
If your apps are thrashing your hard drive too much, you should consider enlarging your pagefile, so that it will hold all of the data that the program needs, instead of paging portions of it in and out constantly.

--T

Terry Yager
June 6th, 2006, 01:24 PM
Of course, if your pagefile exceeds your (available) RAM, then a certain amount of paging will still be necessary (at which point, you should consider either upgrading your computer, or downgrading your software to something that the hardware can handle more easily).

--T

dongfeng
June 6th, 2006, 01:44 PM
Another stick of 256MB wouldn't be expensive (on eBay, they go pretty cheap). 512MB would help things a lot. As I mentioned before, processors are cheap, especially if you offset the cost by selling your old one. What is your mainboard?

I still think that setting the system to factory specifications, a nice fresh install of Windows 98SE and the latest drivers, you'll end up with something really quite useable for emulators and such.

And get that thermal paste sorted out :lol:

I have a system here, AMD K6 333MHz, 256MB memory and a 20BG hard drive, it runs really nicely.

atari2600a
June 6th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Well I can easily get my hands on another 256MB of RAM, it's just a matter of finding it!

carlsson
June 7th, 2006, 01:50 AM
Where I live, there is a shop specialized in modding video games like PS2 and Xbox. Many of the customers come there with unused consoles, installs the mod chip and at the same time upgrades the hard disk to a 80 MB or larger one. It means the store has a surplus of more or less unused second hand 8-10 GB hard disks, unlocked so they can be used with any IDE system. I've bought a couple of those (approx $10 each), and they're really quiet and reasonably fast. Not as fast as RAM of course, but I'd think putting a such hard disk on its own IDE chain (or in combination with CD if you don't use it much) and use for swap, it would be more than sufficient. As you seem to have acceess to a wide array of other computers, I'd save my money for upgrades either on more modern or more vintage computers as I saw needed.

NathanAllan
June 8th, 2006, 07:01 AM
Atari, I didn't think of the pci-cf adapter. I just saw what was cheap and thinking of versatility. If I was to do that, I'd have both cf and pcmcia available if I ever needed it. And it's still pretty cheap. I'm in El Paso, so cooling is a real issue here, too. I have the case sides off my machine all the time and when it gets too hot and starts shutting down randomly I set a small box fan near it to carry away heat.

Carlsson, I wish there was a store near here like that. Talk about a cool store! Everyone around here sells for top dollar all the time, new or used. And no game-modding shops to speak of.

atari2600a
June 8th, 2006, 07:00 PM
OK, I managed to find 2 average-looking case fans, & one really powerful case fan that plugs directly into an outlet & then has another cable so you can plug your PSU in through it. How much do you think all these will bring my CPU tempurature down to? (It's at 180F now, w/ no thermal grease & w/ at 35MHz under it's standard speed)

I'll post a picture of them later.

NathanAllan
June 9th, 2006, 02:16 AM
I don't know the algebraic formula that'll figure out what your new temperature will be, but if you have good airflow in the case it'll go down. Have you thought about going to some little sheetmetal shop and having vents pressed into the case sides? It's not a bad idea. And you have the excuse to give it a cool paint job. Really, the keyword is airflow in and out. About those three fans, have at least one act as an exhaust fan. The ps fan just can't cut it.

atari2600a
June 9th, 2006, 07:18 AM
Yeah, well the big fan I think I have no choice but to put on the outside of the back of the case. I'll look more closely at the other fans, see which one's more powerful, & then put it at the front of the case. Unless I can get 2 fans running on the same connector on the MB, I'm just gonna have to set the other fan aside for now.

alexkerhead
June 11th, 2006, 09:15 PM
Ya know, nice LED fans are inexpensive and nice looking, and offer a nice amount of CFM movement.
I like TT or sunon fans. Nidecs are my fav, but are far too expensive.

atari2600a
June 11th, 2006, 10:07 PM
Well, my case sucks, so I can't put the big fan in (It would of cooled things down at least 15F too!:( ) so for now I'm stuck w/ only using 1 fan in the front.

My PSU died today. I flipped the PSU switch, heard a long & nasty zap, then saw & smelt smoke. The 5V circuitry is still fine, but everything else is dead! I opened it up, turns out 6 years of dust shorted some diodes or something!!! Ironically, I was planning on cleaning all the dust out of it today too!

I might be able to go to a surplus tommorow to pick up another PSU, but for now, I mourn my dead, 6yr, burnt-PCB-&-Diode-smelling PSU...

atari2600a
June 12th, 2006, 10:09 PM
===UpDaTe!!!===

I'm not freaking lying about what I'm about to say.

I have my CPU overclocked 87MHz (4x155MHz=620MHz, original speed 4x133MHz=533MHz) w/ less than a 5F increase in tempurature!!!!

No crashes or anything!

WTF, is this normal!?

Vlad
June 13th, 2006, 02:33 AM
Oh my freakin, freakin noobie sauce.

No, that is not normal, and I highly doubt that is accurate.....

-VK

alexkerhead
June 13th, 2006, 05:02 AM
That is quite possible with early renditions of the katmai core, which he may luckily have.
Or, the cpu is actually clocked high than what he thinks it is, and an overclock is still an underclock.

atari2600a
June 13th, 2006, 05:52 AM
^^^^^SYNTAX ERROR!!!!!!!^^^^^ (in last sentence)

Can you say that again Alexkerhead? I couldn't really understand that last part.:D

& by the way, I know for sure that the CPU's standard speed is 533MHz.

NathanAllan
June 24th, 2006, 01:15 AM
I had to post this since it's relevant to the conversation. At 82F room temp, with the case sides removed, the CPU temperature is 143F, and with a fan sitting off to the side ($10, walgreens) it goes to around 123F. Those are both with a big heatsink and fan on an AMD 1.2ghz proc.