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dongfeng
June 8th, 2006, 10:02 AM
I've been using WinImage to make images of various 5.25" disks I have, in particular my XT and AT diagnosis disks. The original XT disk is 160k, the AT 360k. The blank disks I am using are brand new 360k disks.

Both the disks convert into image files with no problems at all. The 360k AT disk image also has no problem to copy to a new blank 360k floppy. The resulting disk, I can boot from, just like the original.

The problem is with the 160k XT disk!

I formatted my 360k disk to a 160k disk in DOS [FORMAT A: /F:160]. However, when I use WinImage to put the image on the disk, it says that the format is wrong! It offers to format it for me, but it then comes up with a track 0 error.

In WinImage you can also change the disk type of the created image. I coverted the image to 360k disk and it copies to a 360k disk no problems. But the result is a disk that is not bootable!

Also, if I format the disk to 160k, and then diskcopy in DOS my original disk... it works fine and that copy is bootable just like the original.

Any ideas ???

mbbrutman
June 8th, 2006, 10:35 AM
Use DskImage :-)

http://www.brutman.com/PCjr/pcjr_downloads.html

Chris2005
June 12th, 2006, 09:08 AM
I'm not discouraging the use of Imagedisk, but keep in mind there's 22 pages of docs. Teledisk is very straitforward for a job like that (though I've never arc'ed a 160k floppy, but it's bound to work).

Chris2005
June 12th, 2006, 09:09 AM
ok. Never mind I guess lol. I don't know what that program is. Sowwy.

kb2syd
June 13th, 2006, 05:18 AM
Imagedisk may have 22 pages of docs, but you only need to read one or two pages to learn how to use it. Plus, it is legally available, open format, and the source code is available to review. The last I knew about teledisk, you were not supposed to use it to create new images, only to handle existing images.

the xt guy
June 13th, 2006, 06:57 AM
Winimage will only image 5-1/4 inch disks that are in 360K format. If you try to image a 5-1/4 inch disk that is 160K, 180K or 320K, it will give back the error that you saw. It is assuming that all 5-1/4 inch disks are 360K format and when it tries to read a 5-1/4 that is not in that format, it thinks the format is wrong.

For you 5-1/4 inch disks that are in 160/180/320K format you will have to use something else, like Teledisk. That's what I've used and it works most of the time. It may or may not work correctly on a modern, fast computer, you might have to use a 386 or 486 (although it seemed to work OK on my old Althon XP3000.)

Luke
June 13th, 2006, 10:18 AM
You need to format diskette in your XT 'format A: /1' (Diag disk for XTs was 180 Kb as I remember).
Then make image in your modern computer.
But remember! You floppy could be not correct aligned, so it won't read data written on high dentisty drive.

Chris2005
June 13th, 2006, 04:50 PM
"Imagedisk may have 22 pages of docs, but you only need to read one or two pages to learn how to use it. Plus, it is legally available, open format, and the source code is available to review. The last I knew about teledisk, you were not supposed to use it to create new images, only to handle existing images."

Well, it was a little more challenging for me. I still don't understand all of it in it's entirety. I'm not knocking it in anyway, and yes has it's benefits, in particular the openness of the file format. No, you're really not supposed to be using TD, the author has asked that it be removed from sites, but even Dave Dunfield who wrote ID has it on his! And it works well for those quick and dirty jobs.

Terry Yager
June 13th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Wow! I didn't realize that TD was restricted now. Do you have a link handy?

--T

mbbrutman
June 13th, 2006, 04:57 PM
The program I wrote (link is above) will handle 160KB, 180KB, 320KB, as well as the standard 360KB, 720KB, 1.2MB, 1.44MB, and 2.88MB formats. It runs on DOS and Windows machines, and generates a raw binary image so it is compatible with images made using the 'dd' command in Linux.

It does not handle copy protected diskettes. Teledisk can handle some, but not all. How does Imagedisk handle copy protection?

mbbrutman
June 13th, 2006, 04:58 PM
I thought that Dave Dunfield reconsidered that decision? (I remember the big flameware on ClassicCmp a few months ago .. what a barnyard of crap that was.)

Terry Yager
June 13th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Does it recognize any CP/M formats, or are we still 'stuck with' TeleDisk?

--T

Terry Yager
June 13th, 2006, 06:13 PM
I didn't see the flamewar, but I have seen barnloads of crap (with me working the shovel/sh!tfork).

--T

kb2syd
June 14th, 2006, 05:38 AM
I thought that Dave Dunfield reconsidered that decision? (I remember the big flameware on ClassicCmp a few months ago .. what a barnyard of crap that was.)

The code is available as executables. Not in ascii. You can review it, but not edit it (unless you really want to work at it).

I'm working on a program to access the imagedisk images and make the filesystem available to windows and linux. Wish me luck...

kb2syd
June 14th, 2006, 05:40 AM
Does it recognize any CP/M formats, or are we still 'stuck with' TeleDisk?

--T
ImageDisk doesn't recognize any formats. It just reads and writes raw disk images. It has worked, with tweaking, for most of the softsectored images I have thrown at it.

I don't know how it would handle copy protected disks either.

When desperate, I just fall back to the catweasel, but that is not an option for everyone.

Chris2005
June 14th, 2006, 08:11 AM
"I thought that Dave Dunfield reconsidered that decision?"

To continue with the ID project? He later rereconsidered.

"(I remember the big flameware on ClassicCmp a few months ago .. what a barnyard of crap that was.)"

Yeah, I'm forced to agree. This project is important though. I can't see ticking off a guy like that, when he's devoted considerable effort to preserving old warez.

"Does it recognize any CP/M formats, or are we still 'stuck with' TeleDisk?"

Everything TD can handle (my understanding). Plus+++

"The code is available as executables. Not in ascii. You can review it, but not edit it (unless you really want to work at it)."

He had said he would make the source available, upon personal request. But it does rely on some of the coding tools he sells (read libraries I guess), so ultimately of what use it would be is questionable.

"I'm working on a program to access the imagedisk images and make the filesystem available to windows and linux. Wish me luck..."

Kelly, and I just figured out who you were...do you mean available for the purpose of editing? What are you programming in? And if this means you'd be able to extract individual files from an image (as opposed to having to dump the whole image to a floppy and read em off that way)...very interesting.

I was wondering when the h you were going to show up here!

"I don't know how it would handle copy protected disks either."

Depends on what type of copy protection there is.

Now, again I'm not knocking it, but ID has been no more successful at recovering bad sectors from a run of the mill disk then TD - in my experience. I managed to obtain the sources for the Tandy 2000's "boot code", probably the BIOS sources, which I found out all by myself was not contained in rom, rather loaded from disk at boot up (Kelly would insist he beat it into me out back in his woodshed...so we'll just humor him then ;). 4 quad-density disks. There were 2 bad sectors in the whole lot. I was hoping ID would recover them, but sadly it didn't.
If you're interested in a trick, and this might be independent of what imaging program you use (I used to use it with WinImage), if you have a "stuck" sector, and as long as the program (or OS) prompts you as to what to do next, let the disk spindle settle down, then go ahead and continue. I have successfully recovered sectors this way.

kb2syd
June 14th, 2006, 12:22 PM
"I'm working on a program to access the imagedisk images and make the filesystem available to windows and linux. Wish me luck..."

Kelly, and I just figured out who you were...do you mean available for the purpose of editing? What are you programming in? And if this means you'd be able to extract individual files from an image (as opposed to having to dump the whole image to a floppy and read em off that way)...very interesting.


Hi Chris... Yep, it's me.
My intent is to make the filesystem on the diskette available for reading and writing files directly to either windows XP or Linux. Right now I'm working in .NET. This would not be from the diskette though, it would be through an image disk or catweasel image.


If you're interested in a trick, and this might be independent of what imaging program you use (I used to use it with WinImage), if you have a "stuck" sector, and as long as the program (or OS) prompts you as to what to do next, let the disk spindle settle down, then go ahead and continue. I have successfully recovered sectors this way.

The catweasel can do a lot to try to recover bad sectors, but it is not cheap. Setting the retry and a few other options in ImageDisk can help sometimes. I experienced that when imaging that stash of Tandy 2000 disks.

Chris2005
June 14th, 2006, 04:31 PM
"Right now I'm working in .NET. This would not be from the diskette though, it would be through an image disk or catweasel image."

Yeah, that's the idea. Once you have the image, there's no need to write it back to a floppy. Just suck out what ya need. Ok, so I'll guess you're using a VB front end, with some C++ code (or C# bleck) to boot (no pun). Or am I way off?

"The catweasel can do a lot to try to recover bad sectors, but it is not cheap. Setting the retry and a few other options in ImageDisk can help sometimes. I experienced that when imaging that stash of Tandy 2000 disks."

Well if it's better at retrieving things then software alone, that might be a good reason (a very good reason!) to buy it. Would you say that's accurate? What if I mailed you the disks? Would you be interested in taking a look at them? I don't intend to buy one now, but maybe eventually.

kb2syd
June 15th, 2006, 04:58 AM
Ok, so I'll guess you're using a VB front end, with some C++ code (or C# bleck) to boot (no pun). Or am I way off?

Exactly.


Would you say that's accurate? What if I mailed you the disks? Would you be interested in taking a look at them?

Accurate is hard to define when making images of "damaged" disks. I think it is OK. Sure you can mail me the disks to try to image. Wait a week before you do. I'm rebuilding my "imaging" machine and having a hard time getting Debian re-installed. Contact me off list for a mailing address.

Chris2005
June 16th, 2006, 07:19 AM
I have your mailing address goober. And as a matter of fact, I may be up in that corner of Joisy this weekend. Some guy is getting rid of alot of old stuph.

kb2syd
June 16th, 2006, 10:09 AM
Stop by if you're able. What's your email address. I'll send along a phone number.

What kinda stuff you picking up?