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Roland Huisman
December 22nd, 2012, 12:15 PM
Hello Everyone,

I wonder, are there some tools to access the filesystems of vintage (CP/M) diskettes or disk images?
I have a system to make images of old 8" disks using the dave dunfield software.

But I want also get a file out of an image or diskette. And put the file on another diskette.
There are several imagetools but are there also tools to really use the filesystem?

Regards, Roland

gslick
December 22nd, 2012, 12:38 PM
But I want also get a file out of an image or diskette. And put the file on another diskette.
There are several imagetools but are there also tools to really use the filesystem?


These are the utilities I have used in the past to copy files into and out of CP/M disk images:

http://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/index.htm

Welcome to the Wonderfully Ancient World of CP/M
Cpmtools 2.9 Executables for Windows Users
Introduction
Cpmtools is a suite of command line utilities which allow access to CP/M file systems. It is available on many platforms. This document is targetted at the use of the cpmtools Win32 executables at the Windows command prompt by Windows users who know how to use command line utilities and disk images and who may not wish to create cpmtools executables from source code... just to use them.

Roland Huisman
December 22nd, 2012, 01:00 PM
Wonderful, I will test it. Does it work directly to the diskettedrive
or is it also possible to get files from images like the .IMD from Dave Dunfield?

The files I want to copy are on 8 inch disks from different systems...
The 8 inch drive works fine using the software from Dave to make images.
But I don't know how it behaves under windows dos....

Regards, Roland

gslick
December 22nd, 2012, 01:25 PM
When I did this I used ImageDisk on one system to read the disks and create disk images, then used the cpmtools on a different system to work with the disk images.

ImageDisk needs to run in real mode DOS and the pre-compiled cpmtools executable binaries I used need to run under Windows

One other intermediate step I had to do for the disks I was working with was to reorder the sectors in the image created by ImageDisk before using them with cpmtools. You shouldn't need to do that with single sided disks and you may not need to with double sided disks.

Roland Huisman
December 23rd, 2012, 03:03 AM
Hello Gslick,

I've tried the software but I have some troubles...

I have images from a trs80 II cpm2.2 (SSDD) and xerox 820 (DSDD).
The cpmtools won't work with the IMD files so I'd made binary
images from de .IMD files using the IMDU /B option.

The xerox disk is:
0/0 500kbps SD 26x128
0/1 500kbps DD 26x256
154 tracks 77/77 4004 sect

The TRS80 disk is:
0/0 500kbps SD 26x128
0/1 500kbps DD 16x512
77 tracks 77/0 1242 sect

It seems the cpmtools does not directly support these formats.
So I was wondering if I can edit the diskdefs file so it can understand these formats.

The diskdef files has several blocks of settings for diskformats like:

diskdef ibm-3740
seclen 128
tracks 77
sectrk 26
blocksize 1024
maxdir 64
skew 6
boottrk 2
os p2dos
end

For the TRS80 II think it has to be something like this but I don't now all settings:

diskdef trs80
seclen 512
tracks 77
sectrk 16
blocksize 512
maxdir ?
skew ?
boottrk 0
os 2.2
end

Does anyone have some experience here? Is skew the same as interleave?

Regards, Roland

gslick
December 23rd, 2012, 08:05 AM
Yes, you need to use the ImageDisk utilities to create plain binary images.

You might also need to create your own entries in the cpmtools diskdefs file for the specific disk formats you are working with. I had to do that for my project and it took a while to figure out the correct settings. I had to do some reading about the CP/M disk layout to understand the various parameters.

Maybe someone here already knows the correct values for your disk formats.

-Glen

MikeS
December 23rd, 2012, 08:35 AM
Can't help directly, but 22disk has at least 17 different format definitions for TRS-80 systems and the various CP/M versions used; maybe there's some useful info there.

http://www.gaby.de/edownl.htm

Roland Huisman
December 23rd, 2012, 01:47 PM
Thank you all for helping.

If I use the standard diskdefs I can see a part of the directory listing of the single sided disk. (trs80 cpm)
I use the cpmls without any filesystem options. It reads in default mode which seems to be apple-do.

11373

So it seems really close, but really close is not good enough for a computer ;-)
Till now I can get only rubbish with my own diskdefs settings.
(The .RKH file is the binary file created by IMDU /B)

Is there any way of getting all settings out of the IDM files?

Regards, Roland

Jimmy
December 23rd, 2012, 04:00 PM
If your 8" drive is attached to a PC you should be able as Mike suggested to use 22Disk to copy the files to a MSDos drive and them select the files you want to write back to a disk. The disk could be the 8" drive a 5.25 or even a 3.5. 22Disk will work using a Dos guest under VMWare or Virtual PC. I have a CPMDisks.def file for newer drives if you need it.

PM me if I can help in any way.

Roland Huisman
December 25th, 2012, 04:09 AM
@Mike

Thanks for the 22 disk link! I have to put in some time here.
It seems the program omits the TRS80 model II formats. The Xerox
820 is there as 5.25 format. So this might be one step forward.

@Jimmy

The 8 inch is connected to a P75 Running Windows 98SE.
And the controller supports all FDD modes at 250, 300 and 500kbps 1Side and 2Side.
The 22disk software works but knows mostly 5.25 disks.
I would highly appreciate your CPMDisks.def file to try.

@all
I have some disk information. I think it should be possible to
calculate some missing information. But other information seems to be machine specific.

Regards, Roland

MikeS
December 25th, 2012, 07:30 AM
@Mike

Thanks for the 22 disk link! I have to put in some time here.
It seems the program omits the TRS80 model II formats. The Xerox
820 is there as 5.25 format. So this might be one step forward.There were some additional definitions 'out there'; maybe Chuck(G) will read this and have something to add...

Roland Huisman
December 26th, 2012, 02:35 AM
I'd oversee one document at the cpmtools. There is a
nice document about how cp/m disks are build.
So I will try to understand the format.

But there is also some information that is not stored at
the disks like block sizes. Nice... Some new stuff to figure out... :)

Regards, Roland

Chuck(G)
December 26th, 2012, 08:37 AM
Currently, the "official" version of 22Disk has about 526 formats, last updated the 20th of December.

If you're a registered user of 22Disk anytime over the past 25 years, we supply free updates upon request (try that with your copy of PC Write).

22Disk has never been "abandonware" and anyone who claims that is committing slander.

Roland Huisman
December 26th, 2012, 01:37 PM
Hello Chuck,

Thanks for the reply on my cp/m disk request.
I had to search your word ' abandonware ' so if I
understand correctly the program has always
been supported.

Did you make this program? The 22disk link I
got from mike does not support 500+ disk formats.
Is there an version to buy which have all these disk formats?

I really wonder what the price is for it.

Regards, Roland

Chuck(G)
December 26th, 2012, 02:56 PM
Attached is a list of formats currently in the data base. I'll respond with the rest via PM.

Jimmy
December 27th, 2012, 09:32 AM
Roland:

I am out of town until next week, as soon as I get home, I will get the files off disk and send them to you.

Jimmy

MikeS
December 27th, 2012, 10:40 AM
Currently, the "official" version of 22Disk has about 526 formats, last updated the 20th of December.

If you're a registered user of 22Disk anytime over the past 25 years, we supply free updates upon request (try that with your copy of PC Write).

22Disk has never been "abandonware" and anyone who claims that is committing slander.Seems to be a lot of confusion about some Sydex programs and the web site is not very helpful.

How about once and for all a summary of products, their status and where/how to buy and price of the commercial versions?

What about Anadisk for example; would that help Roland?
And what's the status of Teledisk and 22nice? CopyQM?

Chuck(G)
December 27th, 2012, 10:59 AM
CopyQM/AnaDisk/TeleDisk/FormatQM no longer belong to Sydex. There were sold to BAE Armor in 2000 along with other Sydex computer forensics products. I have no idea of their current state; however, the terms of the sale allow us to update old registered customers to the year 2000 version of the software.

We still own 22Disk and 22Nice (both at rev. 1.43, with continuous 22Disk updates). Updates to registered customers may be had for free upon request as long as we still offer the products--now going on 25 years.

As far as selling new copies, we've run up against the simple problem of "How many new computer systems come with legacy floppy support?", so we don't actively market the products or try to explain why USB floppy drives aren't suitable. However, they can be purchased upon request to Sydex; simply send an email to info (at) sydex.com. Most people may find it cheaper and more straightforward to simply have us perform the conversion, a service we currently offer, than struggling with old gear and software.

I hope this clears a few things up.

Roland Huisman
December 29th, 2012, 11:43 AM
@ Chuck

This list is very complete and supports the preferred disk formats. But I'm a bit confused.
Are these formats also available for the older version or do I need to buy the 1.43 program?
If the old one works, it fine for me... But I have no problem to pay a fee for an updated version.

@ Jimmy

Thanks for your reply! Do you have an update for the old version so I can use the formats I need?

@ Mike

Anadisk is that an analyzing software? I'll check it. I'm not familiar with it.

Thank you all for helping and explaining!

Regards, Roland

MikeS
December 29th, 2012, 10:30 PM
@ Chuck

@ Mike

Anadisk is that an analyzing software? I'll check it. I'm not familiar with it.Yes, another of Sydex's excellent products. If you read the 22disk doc file there's a pretty good writeup about using it to determine an unknown disk's layout.

m

Jimmy
December 30th, 2012, 02:41 AM
Mike:

How do you get a list of the products and the pricing? I visited the WebSite but did not see any mention of the software products. Cand you do tape recover of a damaged QIC Tape?

Thanks,

Jimmy

MikeS
December 30th, 2012, 03:34 PM
Mike:

How do you get a list of the products and the pricing? I visited the WebSite but did not see any mention of the software products. Cand you do tape recover of a damaged QIC Tape?

Thanks,

JimmyJimmy, I think you'd be better off asking Chuck those questions ;-)

Jimmy
December 30th, 2012, 06:36 PM
Mike:

I suffer pretty bad from "Old Timers", I realized what I did and send him a PM asking him. I have been using the software for I do know how long. Late 80's or early 90's. I am not sure.

Sorry

Jimmy

MikeS
December 30th, 2012, 07:13 PM
Mike:

I suffer pretty bad from "Old Timers",Tell me about it ;-)

Happy New Year, guys!