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dvanaria
April 15th, 2013, 10:06 PM
Hi, I'm trying to format the hard disk on my Kaypro 10.

I haven't been able to find any information at all on how to do this, except a vague comment about having to go into the hard disk controller board's bios program and run the format from there. I have no idea how to do this.

Here are the specs on my machine:

Hard Disk: MicroScience HH 612 (this is the one with the 10 position dip switch)
Hard Disk Controller: WD-1002 (Western Digital)
Motherboard: PC 81-180 C
Rom BIOS: 81-302

Does anyone have any experience doing this? Any help is appreciated!

ldkraemer
April 16th, 2013, 05:24 AM
dvanaria,
Typically the Western Digitial 100X Controllers used address C800:5 as the entry point to the format routines. You will need to execute DEBUG, then GO to address C800:5.
See Page 43 of the attached document. There are also some registers that might need to be set for specific drives, depending on location.

I searched the Interent with Google and located some good Documentation on the 1002.

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/WD1002-datasheet.html
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/westernDigital/WD100x/79-000029_WD1002S-WX2_XT_MFM_OEM_Manual_Jul85.pdf
Pages 43-45 explain the entry point via DEBUG.

Good Luck.

Larry

geneb
April 16th, 2013, 06:00 AM
Um, no. This is a Kaypro 10, not a PC compatible of _any_ stripe. Accessing the formatter via g=c800:5 ONLY works with PCs.

dvanaria, there's a full set of Kaypro 10 install disk images in the Don Maslin collection here: http://www.retroarchive.org. I suspect the first disk has a formatting tool on it.

g.

dvanaria
April 16th, 2013, 07:51 AM
there's a full set of Kaypro 10 install disk images in the Don Maslin collection here: http://www.retroarchive.org. I suspect the first disk has a formatting tool on it.

Ok thanks geneb! I have all the reload software for the K10, but not any system utilities like the one's on Don Maslin's page. I was hoping I wouldn't have to get into the problem of getting CP/M software from a modern PC to the K10, I know that's a big project, but looking at all the software available on that page it looks like it would be worth it.

Do you recommend figuring out a serial communication connection between my PC (where I can download these files from Don Maslin's page) and running a terminal emulation program on the K10? I have the Mite software that comes with the K10.

Or do you think it's better to set up an older (486) PC with a 5.25 floppy drive and run the DOS program that can create floppies from there?

Thanks for your help.

TX_Dj
April 16th, 2013, 08:53 AM
Don's archives are (mostly?) teledisk images, which can by written out by Sydex Teledisk on a DOS PC with a 5.25" drive. Others may be IMD's, which needs Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk.

You can't put these image files onto the Kaypro and do anything useful with them, afaik. You can write the disk on the PC and use the disk with the Kaypro, though.

phogren
April 16th, 2013, 03:08 PM
I would assume you know that anything on the hard disk will be gone once formatted. You need the Kaypro disk 1 of 10. It will format the drive for you via a submit file. You just stick the disk in the floppy drive and boot it. If you get all 10 disks it will also put the software in different user areas.
The only problem you might run into is the settings on the hard drive. If it's already been used in a 10 you shouldn't have any problem.
I would also assume it's already been low level formatted. Holler if you have any problems.

dvanaria
April 16th, 2013, 07:44 PM
You need the Kaypro disk 1 of 10. It will format the drive for you via a submit file. You just stick the disk in the floppy drive and boot it.

I actually have the Kaypro 10 disk set (I bought a set off eBay, there are 8 disks in all, CP/M version 2.2h), and when I put in disk 1, it auto-loads and starts installing the software. It doesn't format the drive as far as I know, as I expect this would take some significant time. It checks for each software package and if it's not there, it installs the software onto the hard disk.

The reason I wanted to format the hard drive is because it's got a lot of bad sector error messages. The computer's hard disk came pre-loaded with the software set, but it was almost unusable due to all the hard disk bad sector error messages. I couldn't get anything to run. So I bought the install set thinking that would solve the problem, just reinstall all the software! But that didn't work, the install failed on disk 2 due to more bad sector errors on the hard disk.

So now what I'm thinking is I'll try to format the hard disk to get rid of all the bad sectors (I'm not sure if that will work, but I thought I would try).

Sharkonwheels
April 17th, 2013, 12:20 AM
I think you have to CTRL-C the initial auto-install, and then use the LOAD4MAT submit file manually, and that does a format, partitioning, and then software load to the various USERs.

I think it was 'xsub load4mat' but memory is dim, there...

phogren
April 17th, 2013, 06:25 AM
Look at user area 15 on the first disk and see if the format program is there. I'll find the program later and if you need it send it to you.

phogren
April 17th, 2013, 04:56 PM
the submit file you want is: load4fmt.sub O found it on the reload disk 1 which came from k10hald1.td0 and written to disk with teledisk on a dos 6.22 machine.
I also have a file called k10fmt.com i can send if you would like to try it.
Also Sharkonwheels is THE kaypro expert.

Sharkonwheels
April 17th, 2013, 06:09 PM
Also Sharkonwheels is THE kaypro expert.

Oh, I don't know if I'd go THAT far...

:)

geneb
April 18th, 2013, 06:05 AM
Sorry Dude, you're stuck with it now. :D

g.

dvanaria
April 18th, 2013, 08:28 AM
Awesome, thanks for your help phogren and Sharkonwheels.

I did a CTRL-C on disk 1, once it started autoloading, and was able to find the following two format utilities in user area 0 on the disk:
LOAD4MAT.SUB
FORMAT06.COM

I tried running the submit file by running the following:
SUBMIT LOAD4MAT
but it failed with the error "Error On Line 003 Invalid Control Character"
12857

I then looked at the actual text of the LOAD4MAT.SUB file and saw that line 3 read:
^<^Z^[ + RELOAD FOR KAYPRO 10^>
12858

I couldn't get past that. I also tried "XSUB LOAD4MAT", which ran for a few seconds, but then just returned the command prompt:
12859

However...

I then tried running FORMAT06.COM directly, and it worked! It did a high-level format of the disk, which seemed to erase the previous contents (though I was hoping for a low-level format to get rid of all the Bad Sector error messages I was getting from the hard disk). After formatting, I rebooted Reload Disk 1 and watched it go through its install process. It found a whopping 250 bad blocks on the hard disk still, but I think part of the install process works to isolate those blocks so the system doesn't use them... I was able to get through all 8 Reload Disks (I started getting Bad Sector errors from the hard disk around disk 7, but disks 1-6 installed without any errors at all). When it was done, I rebooted with no floppy in the drive and was greeted with the main K10 menu:
12860

Thanks for the help. I'm still seeing intermittent Bad Sector messages, so I'm still going to try to figure out how to do a low level format. If I'm still getting errors after that (and after reinstalling Reload disks 1 through 8 again), I think I have to face the fact that the hard disk is probably toast (hard errors that can't be fixed, as opposed to soft errors).

dvanaria
April 18th, 2013, 09:34 PM
Ok now I feel a bit stupid - I figured out what I was doing wrong when trying to do a low-level format with Reload Disk 1.

I kept trying to use SUBMIT.COM and XSUB.COM to run the batch file LOAD4MAT.SUB, but couldn't get it to run.

Then I took a closer look at how the reload disk normally runs when you just boot the computer with the floppy in the drive: it calls 'EX RELOAD'

In other words, it uses the program EX.COM to call the batch file RELOAD.SUB. I looked at the text inside RELOAD.SUB and it looked an awful lot like the text of LOAD4MAT.SUB.

So, long story short, calling 'EX LOAD4MAT' did the trick. Turns out all this script does is call FORMAT06.COM, so I guess that's as low-level as I can get with these programs to format the hard disk.

Anyway, it didn't solve my original problem: all these Bdos error: Bad Sector messages. FINDBAD is finding upwards of 700 bad blocks during installation.

I think I need a replacement hard disk...

dvanaria
April 19th, 2013, 07:39 PM
I also have a file called k10fmt.com i can send if you would like to try it.

phogren, do you know if your k10fmt.com program is any different than the format06.com I found on Reload Disk 1 (for CP/M ver 2.2 H)?

format06.com does seem to be a high-level format, maybe k10fmt.com might be a more thorough format?

Is that a program I would need a TurboROM for?

phogren
April 20th, 2013, 06:47 AM
I haven't tried it yet. It does come with the advent turborom and is used if you want to switch back to the standard K10. The program for formatting with advent is: advfmt.com. It has a lot of options for different hard drives and even the option for inputting parameters for drives that aren't listed. I've always done low level formatting on a PC clone system (debug g=c800:5). I've never looked into a call to the Kaypro HD controller to see if there is a similar procedure. I'm fixing another K10 motherboard and if I can get it to work I'll try the K10fmt.com program and let you know how it goes.

As far as the Advent Turborom system, I struggled a little with it but once I got it figured out I like it.

dvanaria
April 20th, 2013, 09:16 AM
I've always done low level formatting on a PC clone system (debug g=c800:5). I've never looked into a call to the Kaypro HD controller to see if there is a similar procedure. I'm fixing another K10 motherboard and if I can get it to work I'll try the K10fmt.com program and let you know how it goes.

Ok thanks, I'd be interested to know how the k10fmt.com program works.

I'm in the process of setting up a PC clone system myself in order to have access to all the software that's online, I didn't know it could also be used to run low level formatting on hard disks, that's good to know.

phogren
April 21st, 2013, 12:06 PM
Trying the K10FMT program with the standard ROM it shows it will only work with ADVENT turborom.
I'll stick an advent rom in and see how it works then.

bear
April 23rd, 2013, 02:39 PM
The PC is not likely to be of use for this project. Even though PC controllers typically have low-level format routines built in to their ROMs, the low-level format of an ST-412 (or ST-506, or ESDI, or SMD) interface drive is not interchangable between controllers of different types. This means that a drive must be low-level formatted for the controller you intend to use with it, or at least one significantly similar to it.

phogren
April 24th, 2013, 06:07 AM
I've done 5 or 6 hard disks by LL format on a PC and then formatted on a Kaypro. I seem to remember someone saying that back in the day if you bought a HD from Kaypro it came with a LL format already done, I've done bone stock 10 meg's and it's worked well, also some ST225's and formatted them with the Advent format and again (knock-on-wood) it has worked out well. I've never mucked around (technical term) on the Kaypro WD hard disk controller to see if it has the same routine as some of the WD controllers on the PC but it might be worth a look.
I also think there are some older threads some where on this forum discussing this.

Frank S
September 25th, 2014, 12:40 AM
Format06.COM only formats the first 6 tracks.
Format.com is asking you whichdrive/heads/tracks are to formatting.
Format.com is in the USER 13 area on the K19hald1 disk.
It appears as FORMAT.MOC.
copy it to format.com does the job.

Frank

TX_Dj
April 25th, 2015, 12:38 PM
So yeah, digging up this old thread (and my first post here in a long time) to provide more specifics on what Frank said above.

After botching my KayPLUS ROM installation, I needed to get the system back to working, so I had to reformat the drive back to the standard K10 format first.

Put K19HALD1 image onto a disk, and boot it.

A0> USER 13
A13> REN FORMAT.COM=FORMAT.MOC
A13> FORMAT

It will then ask you a series of questions regarding which drive(s), how many heads, and how many cylinders it has. Substitute your drive's heads and cylinders if they differ from the stock 10MB drive.

Drives answer: 1,1
Heads answer: 0,3
Cylinders answer: 0,305

It will then proceed to format the disk, verifying the bad sectors along the way. This is both an LLF and HLF at the same time.

When you're done with that (it'll take about 30-45 minutes), at least run thru the first disk to get CP/M system onto the hard drive and lock out bad sectors. You can do that by leaving AutoLoad Disk #1 in the drive, press reset, then press enter when the screen comes up. It will then PUTSYS/PUTOVL, then it will FINDBAD for both B: and C: (the two hard drive partitions), and then it will PIP all the system stuff onto the hard drive.

From there, you should be able to eject the floppy, reset, and boot from the hard drive (which then becomes A: and B:, and the floppy becomes C: ).

I figure since this thread got me to where I needed to be (since FORMAT06 wasn't doing the whole drive, which I needed after the KayPLUS ROM laid out the drive in a way that the stock ROM can't work with), that I'd share these specifics in case anyone was still having problems.

ldkraemer
August 26th, 2017, 01:22 PM
TX_DJ,
Your filename has a typo, it should be K10HALD1.IMD

I was also doing some research into how to do a correct format/rebuild, and located this posting. It's very good information. Thanks.

The Manual also states that the Two Partitions are 5 Meg each.


The files on K10HALD1.IMD are:

cpmls -f kay2 -D K10HALD1.RAW
Name Bytes Recs Attr update create
------------ ------ ------ ---- ----------------- -----------------
EX .COM 4K 20
FORMAT06.COM 4K 18
LOAD4MAT.BAK 8K 54
LOAD4MAT.SUB 8K 54
PIP .COM 8K 58
RELOAD .BAK 6K 41
RELOAD .SUB 6K 41

User 1:

Name Bytes Recs Attr update create
------------ ------ ------ ---- ----------------- -----------------
ASM .COM 8K 64
BAUDM .COM 2K 6
BAUDP .COM 2K 6
CHECK .COM 4K 23
CONFIG .COM 36K 273
D .COM 4K 24
DDT .COM 6K 38
DUMP .ASM 6K 33
DUMP .COM 2K 4
ED .COM 8K 52
FINDBAD .COM 2K 16
FLPYFMT .COM 2K 16
GENFLPY .COM 10K 70
LOAD .COM 2K 14
MFDISK .COM 30K 230
MOVCPM .COM 12K 84
MUFBACK .COM 4K 20
MUFDESC .COM 6K 44
MUFLOOK .COM 2K 12
MUFREST .COM 4K 17
NOMENU .COM 6K 38
PAUSE .COM 2K 1
PUTOVL .COM 26K 200
PUTSYS .COM 26K 200
READ .COM 2K 4
SAFETY .COM 2K 3
STAT .COM 6K 41
SUBMIT .COM 2K 10
TERM .COM 2K 6
XSUB .COM 2K 6
YESMENU .COM 6K 39

User 13:

Name Bytes Recs Attr update create
------------ ------ ------ ---- ----------------- -----------------
FORMAT .MOC 4K 26

User 15:

Name Bytes Recs Attr update create
------------ ------ ------ ---- ----------------- -----------------
RCHECK .COM 10K 78
RELOAD .1 2K 1
41 Files occupying 292K, 106K Free.


The parameters for the FORMAT Questions are:

1. First Disk, Last Disk (1,3) or ESC to QUIT
2. First Head, Last Head (0,7) or ESC to Start Over
3. First Cylinder, Last Cylinder (0,305) or ESC to Start Over


00000000 31 00 A0 AF 32 84 0D CD 23 0C 1A 0A 0A 4B 61 79 1...2...#....Kay
00000010 70 72 6F 20 31 30 20 48 61 72 64 20 44 69 73 6B pro 10 Hard Disk
00000020 20 43 65 72 74 69 66 69 63 61 74 69 6F 6E 20 50 Certification P
00000030 72 6F 67 72 61 6D 20 56 65 72 73 69 6F 6E 20 32 rogram Version 2
00000040 2E 35 0D 0A 28 20 43 6F 70 79 72 69 67 68 74 20 .5..( Copyright
00000050 28 63 29 20 31 39 38 33 20 62 79 20 4E 6F 6E 2D (c) 1983 by Non-
00000060 4C 69 6E 65 61 72 20 53 79 73 74 65 6D 73 2C 20 Linear Systems,
00000070 49 6E 63 2E 20 29 0D 0A 28 57 44 31 30 30 32 29 Inc. )..(WD1002)
00000080 20 6F 6E 65 20 72 65 61 64 20 72 65 74 72 79 20 one read retry
00000090 6F 6E 20 65 72 72 6F 72 20 4E 45 57 20 49 4E 54 on error NEW INT
000000A0 45 52 46 41 43 45 20 43 41 52 44 20 4F 4E 45 20 ERFACE CARD ONE
000000B0 50 41 53 53 20 4F 4E 4C 59 00 CD 23 0C 1B 3D 26 PASS ONLY..#..=&


THANKS.

Larry