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View Full Version : Kaypro 10 freezes at boot up



oblivion
May 1st, 2013, 01:20 PM
I recently aquired two Kaypro 10's in excellent condition but both freeze at boot up when "Kaypro 10 ver 1.9E" is display on the screen

the power light is on, the hard drive is spinning but the hard drive light IS NOT on. The floppy light does come on and stay on after a moment but it doesnt sound like its trying to boot to a floppy. it does this with or without a floppy in the drive.

aaqording to the previous ower the machines had new RAM and new hard drives (seagate ST212's) installed. the floppy drives (toshiba 5401aoko1) were also tested and tested out ok when outside of the machine. previous owner thinks it may be an issues with the floppy drive controllers on both units but I wanted to see what anyone here thinks before i start digging around inside or looking for a new controller. I have 0 experence with these types of machines.

phogren
May 1st, 2013, 03:20 PM
Interesting. It's good that you get the "Kaypro 10 ver 1.9E". There isn't a separate FD controller, it's built into the motherboard. First thing I would check is that all the cables are hooked up correctly. It should boot with the floppy disk. Since the hard disks have been changed the HD activity light may not have been connected. There is a 50 pin cable that connects on the motherboard near the middle or on the later models to the side near the FD connector. That 50 pin cable goes to an "intermediate card". From that card there's a cable that goes to the WD Hard Disk Controller mounted outside the drive cage. There are two cables that go from that controller to the hard disk drive. There is also a power cable that connects to the hard disk controller.
Check all those. Also check the BIOS which should be a 81-302 chip. There are a lot of floppy disk images available for the K-10. Holler if you need one.

look for bent or broken pins on any of the connectors.


I can think of a few other things but let's see how all the above is first.

oblivion
May 1st, 2013, 06:53 PM
Bios number checks out. on connector J9 for the big 50 pin connector the last pin on the upper right hand corner appears to be broken off but I cant tell if its supposed to be this way.
cableing all looks good. hard drive looks all hooked up correctly, even checked to see if it was a dead LED.
I could def use a disk image for a for the k-10

what is supposed to happen on a normal k-10? does it go to a command prompt after the Kaypro version screen or ask to insert a boot disk?

phogren
May 2nd, 2013, 09:41 AM
I think that pin is supposed to be gone. If you have the original cable it probably has a plug on it to match.
When the stock K10 boots off the hard drive it ends up at an A> prompt, then there's a drive B (second half of the hard drive) and C> which is the floppy drive. When you boot of the floppy it boots to drive A also but then the hard drive is B and C.
Do you have a PC system with a 5 1/4" drive to make disks?
If not PM me and we'll figure out your options.

oblivion
May 2nd, 2013, 11:29 AM
hmmm, yhea after giving everythinga good look over the cables and everything looks fine. nothing looks busted. Its odd the same problem is affecting both machines.

I do have a 5 1/4 drive but they are 1.2mb drives. I do have a 5 1/4 360kb drive in my tandy 1000 EX if a more modern 1.2mb drive wouldn't work. as i'm new to the kaypro and cp/m machines i'm not sure how it all would need formated but I do have the option if the files are online to transfer them to a 1.44 or possibly 720kb 3 1/2 disk and then to a machine with a 5 1/4 drive.

phogren
May 2nd, 2013, 11:52 AM
There are numerous sources for the K10 disks.
Dave Dunfield and IMG files work well
also Teledisk files (.td0) work well
System won't let me attach a >td) file so email me and I'll send what you need.

TX_Dj
May 3rd, 2013, 12:23 PM
There isn't a separate FD controller, it's built into the motherboard.

While I do agree with what you're saying here, the FDC circuit is definitely a distinct section of the board (just north of the CPU), and the "controller" is an FD1797B. For the most part, it runs the show when it comes to floppy drives - though there is some glue in there as well. There's also an associated 244/245 pair, if memory serves (may be one or the other and a 373 latch), and if those are faulty or intermittent, they can prevent the controller from talking to the rest of the machine.

One thing that I've grown to hate about Kaypros, nearly every major IC or subsystem (such as the WD1002 HDC in the K10) require some form of initialization during the cold boot sequence, and if it should fail to initialize properly, this will tend to "hang" the machine. In the case of the OP, it sounds like his HDC isn't initializing, since he only hears the drive spin, and doesn't hear any head seeking (moving off the landing zone) and doesn't get a solid "10MB READY" led.

Despite the OP's issue, his K10 is still in better "working" condition than mine, and I've poured dozens of hours of diagnostic time into mine.

leeb
May 3rd, 2013, 03:09 PM
Floppies... tested okay... OUTSIDE of the machine.
On what? a PC-type system?

Id try disconnecting BOTH FDs and see if it will come up on the HD.
I think you have 'new drive compatibility' issues...
... but that's only a guess. :D

oblivion
May 5th, 2013, 09:17 PM
Floppies... tested okay... OUTSIDE of the machine.
On what? a PC-type system?

Id try disconnecting BOTH FDs and see if it will come up on the HD.
I think you have 'new drive compatibility' issues...
... but that's only a guess. :D

The floppy was tested by the previous owner so i'm not sure. there is paperwork here that says it was tested as a 360kb drive and worked fine so I assume it was in a PC. I tried booting the machine with both the floppy disabled and just the HDD as well as with the HDD disabled and only the floppy to the same effect.

is the led on the floppy drive supposed to come on and stay on after power up? I know when a PC drive does that it means the cable is in wrong.

TX_Dj
May 6th, 2013, 07:25 AM
is the led on the floppy drive supposed to come on and stay on after power up? I know when a PC drive does that it means the cable is in wrong.

I have yet to actually get my K10 working - but I can tell you this much - the failure scenarios I outlined in my previous post include "floppy drive comes on and stays on". It does this shortly after boot, most of the time on my system.

If the problem is cable-related, the drive will come on just as soon as power is applied, and stay that way. If it waits until moments after the machine turns on, that appears "more normal" (I'll need someone with more recent WORKING Kaypro 10 experience to confirm) though I suspect it should quit at some point. Also, the HDC should get initialized, the HD should pass its POST, and the two together should cause the "10MB READY" led to light solid.

Definitely seems there may be a power-up initialization issue in your system, and unfortunately I've not solved all my problems yet, so I can't tell you exactly what has contributed to similar behaviors in my system.

oblivion
May 7th, 2013, 01:11 PM
OK, my floppy drive light kicks on and stays on about 5 seconds after power is switched on. I took teo photos of the internals. I doubt they will help at all but maybe theres something painfully obvious someone may see thats off that i don't.

http://imageshack.us/a/img401/7522/1005070j.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img819/6725/1005073.jpg

TX_Dj
May 7th, 2013, 08:50 PM
Well... everything looks right, and at least in the top pic what the previous owner said about new ram appears correct, as sockets have been added, and it's TI RAM whereas it seems to me that Kaypro favored mostek.

I'm not clear - have you yet followed phogren's advice to write the K10 floppy images yet?

oblivion
May 7th, 2013, 09:16 PM
Well... everything looks right, and at least in the top pic what the previous owner said about new ram appears correct, as sockets have been added, and it's TI RAM whereas it seems to me that Kaypro favored mostek.

I'm not clear - have you yet followed phogren's advice to write the K10 floppy images yet?

his email was lost in my junk mail but I found it. i'll attempt to make some disks tommarow.

phogren
May 8th, 2013, 09:48 AM
screen shots:

opening screen - select Copy file to disk
13173

Just hit enter
13174

should highlight the file you want like this.
If it isn't highlighted you'll need to know the directory the file(s) are in
13175

If you get to here - you are ready, the disk should complete - no pre formatting required
13176

oblivion
June 1st, 2013, 10:42 PM
ok, It took awhile but I did it (the 51/4 disks I had turned out to be 360k and not 1.2mb disks, oops. but picked up 2 sealed boxes of 1.2 disks at goodwill today). anyways the program worked fine and I made the disk but unfortunitly it didn't load. looks like the floppy drive isnt even attempting to load any disks. again this problem is effecting two of these machines so whatever it is its probibly not a fluke.

ldkraemer
June 2nd, 2013, 03:49 AM
oblivion,
It would be interesting to see what Jumpers are currently selected on your Toshiba floppy.

A typical floppy has the following Signals with Jumpers or a Shunt for other possibilities:

Pin No. Signal Name Description
2---> /REDWC Density Select 0=Low/1=High
4 N/C Reserved
6 N/C Reserved
8<--- /Index 0=Index
10--> /MOTEA 0=Motor Enable Drive 0
12--> /DRVSB Drive Select 1
14--> /DRVSA Drive Select 0
16--> /MOTEB 0=Motor Enable Drive 1
18--> /DIR 0=Direction Select
20--> /Step 0=Head Step
22--> /WDATE Write Data
24--> /WGATE Floppy Write Enable, 0=Write Gate
26<-- /TRK00 0=Track 00
28<-- /WPT 0=Write Protect
30<-- /RDATA Read Data
32--> /SIDE1 0=Head Select
34<-- /DSKCHG 1=Disk Change/0=Ready

And most of the older 5 1/4" floppies had a Programmable Shunt (or DIP Switch):

PROGRAMMABLE SHUNT (SOCKET)
1 -- HS -- 16
2 -- DS0 -- 15 \
3 -- DS1 -- 14 \ SELECT ONLY ONE
4 -- DS2 -- 13 /
5 -- DS3 -- 12 /
6 -- MX -- 11
7 -- SPARE - 10
8 -- HM -- 9 - USE THIS - HEAD LOAD WITH MOTOR ON

The only siginals I find on the Kaypro 10 Schematic are:
*=ACTIVE LOW
J8-8 *INDEX
J8-10 *DRV A
J8-12 *DRV B / *HD CTRL RESET

J8-16 *MTR ON
J8-18 *STP IN
J8-20 *STEP
J8-22 *WRT DATA
J8-24 *WRITE
J8-26 *TRK 00
J8-28 *W PRTCT
J8-30 DSK DATA
J8-32 *SIDE ONE

but I might have missed some. I'm thinking that the Hard Drive was replaced and isn't formatted (prepared), and the floppy was replaced and isn't jumpered correctly to
boot from floppy. I searched with Google, but didn't find any jumper settings for that Toshiba Floppy. Do you have any information on the proper Jumper settings?

UPDATE: The 1484-F_Kaypro_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf file shows the proper Jumper settings for the Toshiba Floppy Drive.

If you were to just set the floppy for DS0 and use the HM Shunt, I'm wondering it it would boot from floppy then?

Larry

oblivion
June 3rd, 2013, 09:59 AM
here are the current jumper settings

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1125/1005202f.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/1005202f.jpg/)

TX_Dj
June 3rd, 2013, 10:18 AM
ok, It took awhile but I did it (the 51/4 disks I had turned out to be 360k and not 1.2mb disks, oops. but picked up 2 sealed boxes of 1.2 disks at goodwill today). anyways the program worked fine and I made the disk but unfortunitly it didn't load. looks like the floppy drive isnt even attempting to load any disks. again this problem is effecting two of these machines so whatever it is its probibly not a fluke.

Can't use 1.2MB disks in a 360KB disk drive.

The end media is what matters, not the source drive type.

To write 360KB floppies, even in a 1.2MB drive, you must have DSDD floppies, not DSHD floppies.

The K10 uses 360KB floppies.

oblivion
June 3rd, 2013, 10:24 AM
Can't use 1.2MB disks in a 360KB disk drive.

The end media is what matters, not the source drive type.

To write 360KB floppies, even in a 1.2MB drive, you must have DSDD floppies, not DSHD floppies.

The K10 uses 360KB floppies.

the teledisk program I was given refused to write to a 360k floppy. and besides that the floppy drive didn't even attempt to read the disk when inserted. I do have a TANDY 1000 with both a 360kb drive and a 720kb I could use but i'm not sure teledisk would work on it.

phogren
June 3rd, 2013, 11:29 AM
The program not writing to a 360KB disk is strange and is what the problem is. There are other versions of the teledisk program available. If you format the floppy from DOS will it do 360k? If there is a CMOS setting for the computer you are using does it say 360 or 1.2 for the floppy? Try the tandy and see if it will format a 360K floppy.
The Toshiba drive is jumpered correctly according to the Kaypro technical manual.

ldkraemer
June 3rd, 2013, 03:26 PM
phogren,
Your statement, "The Toshiba drive is jumpered correctly according to the Kaypro technical manual", doesn't match what the "1484-F_Kaypro_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf"
manual states about the jumper positions.

KAYPRO 10: Jumper the two Pins in the"1" position, the two Pins in the "LD" position, and the two Pins in the "HM" position. The Terminating resistor is needed.

DRIVE A: Jumper the two Pins in the "1" position, the two pins in the "LD" position, and the two Pins in the "HM" position. The Terminating resistor is not needed.

DRIVE B: Jumper the two Pins in the "2" position, the two Pins in the "LD" position, and the two Pins in the "HM" position. The Terminating resistor is needed.

The Jumper in the "HD" position needs to be moved to the "HM" position. (Head Load with Motor "ON")


Oblivion need to try these settings according to what drives are in the Kaypro 10.


Thanks.

Larry

oblivion
June 3rd, 2013, 03:42 PM
I'll try that ID

as for the disk. I cant get it to write to the disk for some reason. i'm using brand new 2s/dd 360k disks but when teledisk gets to writing to the disk I get a "sector not found, cyl 0 side 1 sect 10"

phogren
June 4th, 2013, 11:31 AM
Well by looking at the picture and looking at the manual the drive is configured correctly for a drive 1 in a kaypro 10

TX_Dj
June 4th, 2013, 12:35 PM
I'll try that ID

as for the disk. I cant get it to write to the disk for some reason. i'm using brand new 2s/dd 360k disks but when teledisk gets to writing to the disk I get a "sector not found, cyl 0 side 1 sect 10"

Ok, lets clear the confusion here-

Are you trying to write with a 1.2 drive on a PC? Or with the Kaypro's drive connected to the PC?


If a 1.2 drive on a PC:
Is the bios configured for a 1.2 drive? It should be.

If the Kaypro drive on a PC:
Jumper DS1, terminate, connect it to the "A" side of the twist, configure BIOS for 360K drive.

BIOS should always be configured for the DRIVE TYPE, not the type of disk you want it to write.

You *will* get errors if that is wrong.

You've mentioned several times IIRC about having a tandy with a 360K drive in it. Is that the machine you're using, or some other machine?

oblivion
June 4th, 2013, 01:01 PM
the last attempt was with a 2S/DD 360k floppy disk on a tandy 1000 with a 360k drive so in the last case I am using the correct floppy with a genuine 360k floppy drive but I get that error when teledisk attempts to write the information to the disk.

the last time I tried it succeeded in writting the data to the disk but like you pointed out it wouldnt work on the kaypro because i used a 1.2mb disk on a 1.2mb floppy drive in a PC.

TX_Dj
June 5th, 2013, 06:06 AM
Well, then what happens when you use a DSDD disk in the PC's 1.2MB drive, ensuring the BIOS of that machine does show the drive to be a 1.2MB and not a 360KB drive?

See, the thing here is, a 1.2MB drive spins at a different speed, so the data rate must be increased to write a 360KB disk on it. If the BIOS is incorrectly set, then the data rate will not be correct, and the write will fail.

The tandy should work, in theory, but there could be other reasons why it would not. Tandy PC's had some unusual quirks and pitfalls, IIRC.

oblivion
June 5th, 2013, 09:41 AM
Well, then what happens when you use a DSDD disk in the PC's 1.2MB drive, ensuring the BIOS of that machine does show the drive to be a 1.2MB and not a 360KB drive?

See, the thing here is, a 1.2MB drive spins at a different speed, so the data rate must be increased to write a 360KB disk on it. If the BIOS is incorrectly set, then the data rate will not be correct, and the write will fail.

The tandy should work, in theory, but there could be other reasons why it would not. Tandy PC's had some unusual quirks and pitfalls, IIRC.

yhea, i've heard of that happening before. I have tried other unused disks though since I have a pack of never used 360k floppies. that being the case it may be an issue with the Tandy. unfortunitly thats the only 360k drive I have avaliable to me. my other options i think would be to pull the drive from the kaypro and hook it up to a pc possibly or I don't mind paying shipping + a few $'s if someone would make me a disk.