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camerongray
August 28th, 2013, 04:52 PM
Hi,

I recently picked up a pretty sad looking IBM XT but was able to revive it (C56 on the motherboard was causing the PSU to short out, I removed this and it seems to work fine).

The issue I have is that the machine came with the original MGA and Printer port card where I don't have an MGA monitor. I picked up a 'Trident TVGA 9000i-1' ISA VGA card to test but I'm having trouble getting it working. The card is a 16-bit card but I have set the jumpers in order to use 8 bit mode. I also tried with 'Autodetect 8/16 Bit BIOS Interface' jumper set both on and off.

When I boot the machine with the MGA card and DIP Switches 5 and 6 off, the machine appears to boot normally (POST beeps, seeks floppy, HDD lights up (Not sure if the drive works yet)), with the VGA card inserted and MGA card removed with DIP Switches 5 and 6 on, I get the three beeps (One long two short) to indicate a video error, with the VGA card removed in this state, the machine appears to POST normally.

At no point during this does the monitor come out of standby.

It's worth noting that I had to remove C56 to allow the machine to boot which may have caused issues with the ISA's +12v connection, but this is not connected on my VGA card so doubtful this is the problem.

I'm at a bit of a loss here so any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance,
Cameron

EDIT:
I have taken a (Pretty poor quality) photo of the VGA card I'm using in case that helps:
14966

Stone
August 28th, 2013, 05:31 PM
Have you tested the VGA card in a 16-bit slot yet? Maybe it doesn't work.

In any case here's a list of 16-bit VGA cards that are known to work in 8-bit slots:

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=Hardware:8bit+Friendly+ISA+VGA+ cards

As you'll see, the card you are using *may* require a 286 processor to work in an 8-bit slot.

camerongray
August 29th, 2013, 01:12 AM
Unfortunately I don't have any other ISA machines handy to test with at the moment (Poor show I know!) but I could probably dig one out if I absolutely had to.

How would I tell whether it requires a 286 or not, are there certain BIOS versions on the "Trident TVGA9000I-1" to look out for?

It's not the most reliable source of course but the eBay listing states "Put VGA in your IBM PC XT!!!" - I'll email the seller to see if they actually tested the card in an XT or if they are just guessing!

Worst case I can always return it and find another card, but there are very few on eBay UK going around (That aren't being shipped from the US), if anyone can find any (or has one they are willing to sell) for a reasonable price, I'd be extremely happy!

Also, FWIW, I'm using a VGA LCD monitor that's probably from around 2005 (1280x1024 Acer), not sure if this matters.

Thanks again,
Cameron

archeocomp
August 29th, 2013, 02:21 AM
TVGA9000I-1 definitely works in a XT. Even Sergey based his VGA cad around this chip. I personally have used several Tridents (9000B, 9000C, 9000I) in a XT clones and they all worked.
http://www.malinov.com/Home/sergeys-projects/isa-supervga

I would say, your card is not working, or you did not jumper it right.

camerongray
August 29th, 2013, 02:59 AM
Ahh, thanks for that. The seller says this is the first problem they have heard of with that card and are happy for me to return it.

Now trying to decide whether to get another card the same or to buy a CGA card and use its composite output (Quality doesn't matter as I'm planning on getting a proper MGA monitor soon)

Stone
August 29th, 2013, 03:22 AM
I've got a Datamedia CGA card that works great if you're interested.

Also an IBM 5151 in excellent condition:

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?38382-IBM-5151-mono-monitor-in-excellent-condition

modem7
August 29th, 2013, 03:44 AM
I recently picked up a pretty sad looking IBM XT but was able to revive it (C56 on the motherboard was causing the PSU to short out, I removed this and it seems to work fine).
I added your machine to the list [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/vcf_motherboard_failure_history.htm)].


, with the VGA card inserted and MGA card removed with DIP Switches 5 and 6 on, I get the three beeps (One long two short) to indicate a video error, with the VGA card removed in this state, the machine appears to POST normally.
5160 motherboard video switches set for MDA:
During POST, motherboard looks for MDA card. If MDA found, motherboard initialises the card. If not found, motherboard issues 1 long and then 2 short beeps. If MDA found, but there was a problem initialising the card, the motherboard issues 1 long beep and then 2 short beeps.

5160 motherboard video switches set for CGA:
During POST, motherboard looks for CGA card. If CGA found, motherboard initialises the card. If not found, motherboard issues 1 long and then 2 short beeps. If CGA found, but there was a problem initialising the card, the motherboard issues 1 long beep and then 2 short beeps.

5160 motherboard video switches set for EGA/VGA (DIP Switches 5 and 6 on):
Motherboard expects the video card to initialise itself. How EGA/CGA cards report an initialisation problem (e.g. faulty RAM) with themselves is up to the card maker. IBM EGA cards produce 1 long beep followed by 3 short beeps. Some clone cards produce 1 long beep followed by 2 short beeps.

So, with DIP Switches 5 and 6 on (and assuming a fully functional motherboard), the source of the beeps is your VGA card. It is informing you that it found a problem with itself.

camerongray
August 29th, 2013, 04:36 AM
5160 motherboard video switches set for EGA/VGA (DIP Switches 5 and 6 on):
Motherboard expects the video card to initialise itself. How EGA/CGA cards report an initialisation problem (e.g. faulty RAM) with themselves is up to the card maker. IBM EGA cards produce 1 long beep followed by 3 short beeps. Some clone cards produce 1 long beep followed by 2 short beeps.

So, with DIP Switches 5 and 6 on (and assuming a fully functional motherboard), the source of the beeps is your VGA card. It is informing you that it found a problem with itself.

Oh that's great, I'll have a good look over the card when I get home in case it's something obvious but will probably end up returning it and getting a CGA/VGA card, currently torn between the two, also tempted to go all out and buy an MGA monitor.

Beerhunter
August 31st, 2013, 03:56 AM
I'm planning on getting a proper MGA monitor soon
You will do better finding one if you call it an IBM Monochrome Monitor (or Display) and the adapter an IBM Monochrome Display/Printer Adapter. (In other words, there is no "G" because there is no graphics.)

Chromedome45
August 31st, 2013, 04:23 AM
If you still want a working VGA card for the XT I am using a cirrus logic 5402 based board and works for me. I too have never been able to get a Trident 9000 anything to work in my XT. Or a Trident 8900 as well.

Stone
August 31st, 2013, 04:54 AM
I've got a Trident TVGA9000B that works great in my XT. It's got 512 KB on it.

modem7
August 31st, 2013, 03:04 PM
I too have never been able to get a Trident 9000 anything to work in my XT. Or a Trident 8900 as well.
In regard to the Trident cards, there seems to be quite a lot of variation in what people are reporting.

I just picked up a new-in-box Trident 9000C card, so box, card, manual, drivers. Configured for 8-bit operation, the card works in an 8-bit slot in my IBM AT and in my 386 based clone. But I cannot get it to work in an IBM XT or in an XT clone. But, I wasn't expecting it to work in XTs, because the manual contains, "8 or 16 Bit AT-Bus Slot Select" - the manual indicates AT bus.
The manual (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals.htm#Trident) indicates that my 9000C card is strictly speaking, a "9000C MKII", which will be a second version of the 9000C card. So maybe the first version 9000C card (configured for 8-bit operation) works in XTs, but not the second version of the card (the MKII).

Now, if it was not for the manual, then I would not have known that I have the MKII version of the 9000C. There is no "MKII" marked on the card. I would have looked at the LSI chip (a Trident TVGA9000C), and from that and the fact that the BIOS is a Trident one, assumed that I had I simply had a Trident 9000c card.

So, I think that there may three things going on that is leading to the conflicting Trident results:

1. Trident produced variations of its cards (e.g. four variations of Trident 9000C, three variations of Trident 9000I, ...). Some variations are XT compatible, some are not.

2. People identifying non-Trident cards as Trident. Just because the card's LSI chip is a Trident TVGAXXXXXX does not mean that the card is a Trident XXXXX. The BIOS on such cards may or may not be XT compatible.

3. Trident-made OEM cards. Just because the card's LSI chip is a Trident TVGAXXXXXX does not mean that the card is a Trident XXXXX. The BIOS on such cards may or may not be XT compatible.

SomeGuy
August 31st, 2013, 04:58 PM
Hmm, if a card can function in an 8-bit AT slot, then the root of the problem is probably the BIOS using 286 instructions. Has anyone kept track of the BIOS versions in each card? It would also be interesting to know if using an NEC V20/30 would make it work.

modem7
August 31st, 2013, 05:29 PM
Hmm, if a card can function in an 8-bit AT slot, then the root of the problem is probably the BIOS using 286 instructions.
Yes, quite possibly.


It would also be interesting to know if using an NEC V20/30 would make it work.
The results may vary from BIOS to BIOS.
I know that with my 9000C MKII, substituting the XT's 8088 with a V20 did not change the result.
Of course, a 286 has instructions that are not in the V20.


Has anyone kept track of the BIOS versions in each card?
Not that I'm aware of.

I think that for the purpose of recording which Trident cards (or clone/OEM versions), are compatible with the XT, two things need to be noted:
1. Card hardware - a photo of the card, or some identifying feature (like the "7133 REV B1" printed on my card); and
2. Card's BIOS revision.

In that way, someone can be very confident that the card they plan to buy is going to work in their XT.

modem7
August 31st, 2013, 05:37 PM
Interestingly, my Trident 9000C MKII card behaves like Cameron's TVGA9000i based card. In an IBM XT, or XT clone, the card generates 1 long beep followed by 2 short beeps. As expected, removing the card's BIOS chip results in no beeps at power on.

It's possible that the initialisation code in the card's BIOS is first checking to verify the presence of a 286 (or better), and if not present, generating the error beeps.

Chromedome45
August 31st, 2013, 06:28 PM
Same here with the 9000. I have 1 of them and a 8900D and neither one works. 1 Long and 2 short beeps. The 9000 one looks indentical to Modem7's 9000c MKII. AFIAK I think the Trident 8800 would work with an XT class machine. So for Now I'll use my Cirrus Logic 5401. even though it's not CGA resgister level compatible. The Tridents are. In a 286 or greater machine that is.

Next project to think about a CGA/EGA to VGA convertor. Basically an D/A convertor. The ones you see on eBay are for Analog CGA we need one that can handle Digital CGA/EGA. I have seen them out there but way to expensive.

Chromedome45
September 2nd, 2013, 08:39 AM
I've got a Trident TVGA9000B that works great in my XT. It's got 512 KB on it.

Got anymore that work in an XT (trident that is)

Stone
September 2nd, 2013, 08:44 AM
Are you lookin' for one or just takin' my inventory for me? :-)

giobbi
January 14th, 2014, 11:46 AM
So, I think that there may three things going on that is leading to the conflicting Trident results:

1. Trident produced variations of its cards (e.g. four variations of Trident 9000C, three variations of Trident 9000I, ...). Some variations are XT compatible, some are not.

2. People identifying non-Trident cards as Trident. Just because the card's LSI chip is a Trident TVGAXXXXXX does not mean that the card is a Trident XXXXX. The BIOS on such cards may or may not be XT compatible.

3. Trident-made OEM cards. Just because the card's LSI chip is a Trident TVGAXXXXXX does not mean that the card is a Trident XXXXX. The BIOS on such cards may or may not be XT compatible.

I just wish to add my two cents and my (unfortunately negative) experience with Trident 9000i-3 chipset based.
The card is like this one:
1684616847

The original bios was the D4.01E version. I dumped the ROM content and I compared it with the one posted on the Sergey's site. No difference. I programmed an Eprom with the old bios (D3.51 version), but I still get the on long beep-two short beeps error code.
A tip: if I leave the switches set for CGA card, I get the long beep-two short beeps sequence TWICE; while if I set the switches for VGA, I get the sequence ONCE only. Not sure if it's relevant.

I can't check the RAM chips, since I haven't any to replace.

QUESTION: DOES ANYBODY HAS A 9000i THAT'S WORKING ON THE ORIGINAL IBM-XT *AND* AN EPROM PROGRAMMER? It would be fine to test these not working 9000i with a working firmware and see if it solves, or not.

--Giovi

--UPDATE: I remembered I had an old Cyrix 486-like MB with some ISA slots; I checked the VGA card and it's working fine. So the problem is a compatibility problem.