PDA

View Full Version : USB on an 8 bit ISA Bus, it is possible!!!



RubberTelly
September 23rd, 2013, 09:07 AM
These cypress products are impressing me more and more...

http://www.cypress.com/?mpn=SL811HST-AXC

It can be done, USB 1.1 on an ISA 8 bit bus!!!

Once again, it will need interface circuitry...

Old Thrashbarg
September 23rd, 2013, 10:03 AM
You're not the first to have that idea (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?18504-ISA-USB-adapter). Building the hardware isn't really the problem... it's the software that's the hard part.

RubberTelly
September 23rd, 2013, 10:05 AM
Been there, done that...If you only want to boot from USB or read a Dongle that is...

evildragon
September 24th, 2013, 12:38 PM
Wow with "256-byte internal SRAM buffer", that's not much for these old computers. Ethernet with a buffer that low already causes problems when other hosts try and send data to an 8088 based machine because they communicate too fast (10mbps). With USB 1.1 devices, I see comparable problems unless that buffer is larger.

mbbrutman
September 24th, 2013, 06:58 PM
SRAM is single cycle access.

USB data packets are at most 1024 bytes in size. Having 256 bytes of high speed SRAM does not sound like a horrible mismatch.

evildragon
September 24th, 2013, 07:17 PM
SRAM is single cycle access.

USB data packets are at most 1024 bytes in size. Having 256 bytes of high speed SRAM does not sound like a horrible mismatch.

It won't still choke the CPU or fill up it's RAM? I figured it would.

ajacocks
September 25th, 2013, 10:15 AM
Also, an 8-bit USB stack, if you limited the drivers available to the most basic, is eminently doable. It's been done (twice!) on the 16/32 bit Amigas.

- Alex

RubberTelly
September 25th, 2013, 10:43 AM
You do know that USB and SD are interoperable...Boot from SD card anyone?

evildragon
September 25th, 2013, 11:00 AM
You do know that USB and SD are interoperable...Boot from SD card anyone?

Do explain what you actually mean. SD cards use a different protocol, electrically and in software, than USB.

RubberTelly
September 25th, 2013, 11:03 AM
Most Hardware USB Controllers have SD support built in these days...

http://www.cypress.com/?id=2387

evildragon
September 25th, 2013, 12:26 PM
Most Hardware USB Controllers have SD support built in these days...

http://www.cypress.com/?id=2387

That's not just a USB controller though, it's a multifunction IC. I'm beginning to think you may not know what you're talking about.

eeguru
September 25th, 2013, 03:17 PM
Most Hardware USB Controllers have SD support built in these days...

http://www.cypress.com/?id=2387

Again chip scale BGAs w/ .4mm ball pitch. Good luck on your HDI boards.

Chuck(G)
September 25th, 2013, 03:39 PM
I find this thread very confusing. Is the idea to support a USB device on an ISA bus? Well, if you can limit your subset, the FTDI Vinculum looks to be a low-software approach, but what it supports is pretty limited. There are plenty of USB-capable (host mode) MCUs, some with 5V tolerant inputs, e.g. STM32F1xx that are both cheap and quite flexible.

But supporting a generalized USB stack in an 8-bit PC is not something I'd have nightmares about implementing. But a few devices, I don't see an issue.

As far as SD card support, heck, you don't even need an MCU--an SPI interface can be implemented in random logic or even a CPLD and will do just fine if you're not speed-fussy.

Cimonvg
September 25th, 2013, 05:03 PM
hello
I did buy a rs232 to USB device :
http://www.sureelectronics.net/goods.php?id=1135
..but have not tried it out jet :eh:
Think it could bee cool to use USB sticks with the old 5150!
But it needs some kind of programming, to make it work in like DOS enviroment.
A first try i will use a terminal application, to communicate with the box.
/cimonvg

cr1901
September 25th, 2013, 05:41 PM
http://bretjohnson.us/source/source.htm

Bret Johnson wrote a few USB drivers for DOS in the past... they only work on UHCI machines however. Although it requires a 386, they will run in real mode. So it's certainly possible. The comments indicate that the drivers can tolerate a machine which lacks a PCI BIOS as well.

I have successfully used mass storage with Bret's USB drivers, but it's slower than floppy disk access on a 300MHz machine! Never tried the mouse or keyboard drivers. I don't imagine that getting a USB keyboard to hook IRQ 1 would be feasible either, since the PC doesn't send out that interrupt pin to the ISA bus.

cr1901
September 25th, 2013, 05:44 PM
Again chip scale BGAs w/ .4mm ball pitch. Good luck on your HDI boards.

Going forward, I think BGA is one of the stupidest things ever invented, simply because it's impossible for a human to reliably solder them... we rely waaaaay too much on the machines to do everything for us. What do we do when the machines which place BGA components, which themselves contain BGA components, fail? We're going to byte ourselves in the ass one day with this bootstrapping*...

*Hey, just like the GCC project did, since the original version doesn't exist anymore!.

RubberTelly
September 26th, 2013, 02:06 AM
BGA to anything converters do exist...I did post something about it somewhere...At some point...

Aaaarg...I've lost track...Need more Coffee...

RubberTelly
September 26th, 2013, 02:09 AM
BGA to anything

http://www.advanced.com/

NobodyIsHere
September 26th, 2013, 04:32 AM
BGA to anything

http://www.advanced.com/

Those adapters do not solve the fundamental problem with BGA components.

It is relatively easy to find a BGA-48 to DIP-48 socket adapter PCB.

Now, how do you fasten the BGA-48 to the adapter?

That requires a lot of technical skill and specialized equipment like an IR soldering lamp.

If SMT is difficult for many hobbyists then BGA assembly is way out of reach.

Have you ever assembled a PCB yourself? Are you familiar with SMT and/or BGA technology?

Andrew Lynch

RubberTelly
September 26th, 2013, 05:43 AM
1. Drill appropriate holes in PCB for BGA Balls to sit in, not through the board, just on top, best off to use a drilling jig for this.
2. Apply solder to Chip side of board holes to slightly fill them, do not over do it with the solder, the balls need somewhere to sit.
3. Solder the chip into place by applying a small amount of solder to the Back side of the PCB, enough to melt the front Solder to grip the Balls.
4. Get lots of practise at this, it's easy in theory, but hard to do...

eeguru
September 26th, 2013, 06:02 AM
I think you need to find a ruler and measure how small a .4mm ball pitch is.

.8 and 1mm BGA can be done with a home oven. However the boards are prohibitively expensive for hobbyists to order. For 1mm pitch the dog bones require 10 mil drills and 5 mil rings. That beyond most bargain PCB's DRM rules. .4mm is solidly in HDI territory which adds up to significant dollars for small runs of boards.

Dca2
September 26th, 2013, 09:07 AM
A little bit off topic but regarding BGA soldering, I agree that it is mainly a factory-level game. But it is also not absolutely impossible for a hobbyists at home. The key is a practical method to manage the temperature curve and the focus of heating. I recently fixed an ATI HD2600 video card from my 2007 Apple iMac. The GPU on this card was gone and I have to replace this one-square-inch BGA chip, which has hundreds of tiny soldering joints underneath it. I made my own "BGA rework station" with a cheap aluminum pizza case, a thermal meter, the kitchen stove and a 898D hot air gun (I will add pictures after I'm home tonight). the temperature curve that I adopted for this chip is: 110℃/120s - 200℃/120s - 265℃/30s - 100℃/120s. Long story short, I went through the curve twice for removing the damaged BGA chip and re-soldering a brand new identical BGA chip. The card seemed to work for weeks so far, although it looks quit toasted. However, the entire process that I experienced was much more complicated than what I can write here, and always with uncontrollable speculations between success and failure. Yes, it's possible but extremely difficult and speculative. Joy in pain...

Comment: do not take this as any tutorial in general. It is my true story but only for your entertainment.

Chuck(G)
September 26th, 2013, 09:22 AM
Well, the specialists in adapter boards Schmartboard (http://www.schmartboard.com), do market BGA adapters, but the best they've been able to do is 1.0 mm pitch. Here's their assembly instructions (http://schmartboard.com/schmartboard_dc_ez_bga_instructions.pdf). I can't imagine doing an 0.4 mm BGA the same way with any measure of success. BGAs that small are definitely reflow-oven fodder, which puts them outside of the usual electronics/computer hobbyist's capabilities.

evildragon
September 26th, 2013, 09:51 AM
Don't they have any BGA adapters that are spring loaded like how motherboard sockets are now these days?

NobodyIsHere
September 26th, 2013, 10:14 AM
Don't they have any BGA adapters that are spring loaded like how motherboard sockets are now these days?

Yes, they do make sockets for the larger pitch BGA devices but they are very expensive ~$100 each.

The BGA socket would be more expensive than the rest of the board and parts combined.

BGA devices are designed to be assembled with robots and baked on in IR ovens/heat guns.

I've seen manual BGA soldering rework stations and they use a microscope like device and tiny tools.

Most of the time I can't even see what they are working on even staring right at it.

BGA is a non-starter for hobbyist projects IMO unless they are going to be pre-assembled at the factory.

In that case, be prepared for some big time prices -- as in hundreds per board in quantity.

Andrew Lynch

geoffm3
September 26th, 2013, 10:41 AM
Yes, they do make sockets for the larger pitch BGA devices but they are very expensive ~$100 each.

The BGA socket would be more expensive than the rest of the board and parts combined.

BGA devices are designed to be assembled with robots and baked on in IR ovens/heat guns.

I've seen manual BGA soldering rework stations and they use a microscope like device and tiny tools.


There's a BGA rework station just down the hall from me... I can't imagine how much it cost the company, but it wasn't cheap I'm sure. The microscope is a stereoscopic one, and on top of that also overlays a lighted template in the field of view for lining up the workpiece with the part footprint. The table is also heated and has jets underneath to heat the underside of the board, as well as the hot-air gun nozzle that heats the part up itself. The part is held to the nozzle with a vacuum and the tecnician lowers the part down directly onto the board when it the temperature is right.

It doesn't look like a complicated process, but the equipment definitely is.

Dca2
September 26th, 2013, 05:41 PM
Here are pictures to my previous post #22
153601536115362

Dca2
September 26th, 2013, 05:43 PM
continue...

15363153641536515366

NobodyIsHere
September 26th, 2013, 05:57 PM
Doesn't that sort of prove my point that BGA component work is probably beyond the skill level of most hobbyists? Look at how exotic your set up is! Could average hobbyists replicate anything like that with consistent success? I really doubt it.

I have made many PCBs and have builders almost constantly unhappy with the PCB only option. Nearly all of my hobbyist PCBs are all 0.1" PTH DIP/PLCC technology. Basically Radio Shack 25W soldering iron technology is too much for a sizeable percentage of hobbyists!

Using SMT components to a limited extent might be feasible for some with careful part selection and PCB layout. However even the "wide pitch 1mm" BGA technology is just not realistic for nearly everyone. Also it requires much more sophisticated and expensive multi-layer PCBs.

Yes, it may be possible but I don't think it is practical. You all are free to try whatever you want but all I can say is "good luck"

Andrew Lynch

geoffm3
September 26th, 2013, 07:34 PM
Doesn't that sort of prove my point that BGA component work is probably beyond the skill level of most hobbyists? Look at how exotic your set up is! Could average hobbyists replicate anything like that with consistent success? I really doubt it.

I have made many PCBs and have builders almost constantly unhappy with the PCB only option. Nearly all of my hobbyist PCBs are all 0.1" PTH DIP/PLCC technology. Basically Radio Shack 25W soldering iron technology is too much for a sizeable percentage of hobbyists!

Using SMT components to a limited extent might be feasible for some with careful part selection and PCB layout. However even the "wide pitch 1mm" BGA technology is just not realistic for nearly everyone. Also it requires much more sophisticated and expensive multi-layer PCBs.

Yes, it may be possible but I don't think it is practical. You all are free to try whatever you want but all I can say is "good luck"

Andrew Lynch

Agreed... in general I think the complexity of most BGA parts themselves is probably beyond the scope of most hobby applications as well. A lot of the RAM bus speeds of the microprocessors we are using now require very careful component layout and routing for DDR, well outside the capability of the hobbyist. And if you have a problem soldering that BGA? Have fun reballing it. I've been told at work that a typical processor-sized (200+ pin part) BGA can cost upwards of $400 to reball.

I do think there's a place for SMT for hobbyists, but it's limited to parts packages that have connections at the edge of the part. Fairly fine pitch QFPs can be done easily with a wide chisel tip iron and a generous amount of flux.

Chuck(G)
September 26th, 2013, 07:49 PM
I do think there's a place for SMT for hobbyists, but it's limited to parts packages that have connections at the edge of the part. Fairly fine pitch QFPs can be done easily with a wide chisel tip iron and a generous amount of flux.

I do fine on 0.5mm QFPs with just an iron and some braid. If I can do it, anyone can.

cr1901
September 26th, 2013, 08:17 PM
Doesn't that sort of prove my point that BGA component work is probably beyond the skill level of most hobbyists? Look at how exotic your set up is! Could average hobbyists replicate anything like that with consistent success? I really doubt it.

I have made many PCBs and have builders almost constantly unhappy with the PCB only option. Nearly all of my hobbyist PCBs are all 0.1" PTH DIP/PLCC technology. Basically Radio Shack 25W soldering iron technology is too much for a sizeable percentage of hobbyists!

Using SMT components to a limited extent might be feasible for some with careful part selection and PCB layout. However even the "wide pitch 1mm" BGA technology is just not realistic for nearly everyone. Also it requires much more sophisticated and expensive multi-layer PCBs.

Yes, it may be possible but I don't think it is practical. You all are free to try whatever you want but all I can say is "good luck"

Andrew Lynch

And this is the main reason hobbyists electronics died out... all about money- let the machines do everything for humans and not provide an alternative when the machines screw up. What ever happened to fixing things that were broke instead of throwing them away?!

Rick Ethridge
September 26th, 2013, 08:25 PM
I've had a motherboard with bad caps replaced. I'm using it now. Nowadays I only throw out computers that are POSITIVELY IRREPARABLE.

geoffm3
September 26th, 2013, 08:50 PM
And this is the main reason hobbyists electronics died out... all about money- let the machines do everything for humans and not provide an alternative when the machines screw up. What ever happened to fixing things that were broke instead of throwing them away?!

I don't think it's anything so insidious. Fanout with hundreds of pins is harder without BGAs, certainly it makes for much smaller packages which makes for smaller devices. Cell phones would be much larger without them.

Chuck(G)
September 26th, 2013, 08:55 PM
They do start to pile up, however... :)

Dca2
September 26th, 2013, 09:03 PM
Yep, added comments in my original post @22 floor for avoiding potential misleadings.

Back to the topic, I do use USB mass-storage on most of my ISA rigs. I'll post details tomorrow...

Dca2
September 27th, 2013, 01:05 PM
Back to the topic. I'm not sure if there is a massive demand for using USB keyboard, USB sound codec or USB printer on vintage computers. But imo, using USB mass-storage does matter for the sake of convenience and cool. Actually, I have been using USB sticks on my 386DX-40 and DX4-100 for 2+ years. The product I use is a CH375 based ISA card with an USB port on its backplate (as pictured). Yes, it comes with a little (4kB) DOS driver that can be loaded by config.sys which adds a new DOS drive letter (H:\ for eg.) also visible under Windows 3.x. It allows me to use USB stick, USB card reader or USB external HD with my ISA rigs, including my 8088 XT clone (8-bit ISA), with reasonable r/w speed. It supports hot-swap and even boot from USB (if a boot ROM is installed). However, it may not be a general USB solution for ISA bus but just USB mass-storage only, and the storage has to be formatted in FAT (required by DOS). I have not yet tested it with USB hub or CD/DVD. But I do prefer its convenience over floppy disks, LL3 or FTP (command line).

So far, I'm just a user without putting any thought on what else this product can do with USB. I'm happy with its existing simplicity of use because that's all I need for my $18. Maybe it is not something truly belong to vintage computers. But it's another nice retrofit option similar to those modern LCD monitors, CF cards or FDB-based HDDs often seen in today's retro projects.

I bought it from a random online seller in China. I don't have a valid URL anymore (sorry) but full information about this product is easy to access by Googling with keywords: USB ISA CH375. That's why I didn't bother to post it here as I assume it's something known without mention.



1537615377153781537915380

Chuck(G)
September 27th, 2013, 01:54 PM
I think I have a couple of USB-serial adapters from the same maker.

If you're interested only in storage devices such as flash sticks, then it's probably okay, but it really doesn't take much to do that. But connecting to a variety of USB devices does require a USB driver stack--and that's where the software gets ugly.

Dca2
September 28th, 2013, 06:43 PM
Yeah. if I recall correctly, I was brought here by the amazing XT-IDE. But given the vast (if not infinite) categories of USB drivers, maybe the development cost will beat the power of passions in typical hobbyist measurement. As you may already noticed via Google that most of the USB ISA cards come without backplates, implying a fact that they actually target to those industrial users. So, my choices are quite limited within what're already available now.

But miracle like Raspberry PI does exist -- starting from passions but got its path to bissness eventually. Is it always duplicable then?

nathan
September 28th, 2013, 07:50 PM
Did a fair share of googling for this mysterious ISA USB card, but didn't come up with anything. Can you give us a manufacturer, or model number that can be added to the search? Thanks!

Caluser2000
September 28th, 2013, 09:26 PM
Answers the OPs question. I'd certainly be in the market for couple.

Chuck(G)
September 28th, 2013, 09:45 PM
I doubt that it's still in production, but it probably uses/used the WCH375 part, which is a basic USB Host to any old bus interface gizmo. Manufacturer's website is http://www.wch.cn (how's your Chinese?). But there's a datasheet (http://wch-ic.com/download/down.asp?id=13) for it; there are other datasheets for wch products (http://wch-ic.com/download/).

FWIW, they claim to be the original inventor of the Gotek floppy drive emulator; an email to them got the response that Gotek and others stole their design.

Ah, Chinese IP...

Caluser2000
September 28th, 2013, 10:00 PM
Fortunately I don't have a TAJIMA HAPPY BARUDAN embroidery machine.

Krille
September 29th, 2013, 02:38 AM
Yes, it comes with a little (4kB) DOS driver that can be loaded by config.sys which adds a new DOS drive letter (H:\ for eg.) also visible under Windows 3.x. It allows me to use USB stick, USB card reader or USB external HD with my ISA rigs, including my 8088 XT clone (8-bit ISA), with reasonable r/w speed. It supports hot-swap and even boot from USB (if a boot ROM is installed).

Is the driver or boot ROM available for download somewhere? If not, can you post them? I tried downloading the zip file from here (http://wch-ic.com/download/list.asp?id=57) but it's just a text file.

Dca2
September 29th, 2013, 05:13 AM
Chuck(G) pointed to the right maker (http://www.wch.cn) which I still remember. But I'm not sure if the chip and card are all from the same maker. There is another company has the card listed on their website (http://yising.cn.china.cn/supply/1633172128.html)

I found the original zip package in my archive, it contains much more than just a driver. I missed a way to upload any file other than image here, but I verified that there is an alternative link still valid at:
http://wch.cn/download/down.asp?id=57

The card is still for sell on TAOBAO (Chinese equivalent to eBay) for 160 (about $23) here (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.Wq6ZLk&id=4114188724&_u=t9j0j4lf110), but again, without backplate. You have to DIY one for use in AT case. They normally don't do international shipping tho.

Sorry for posting so many non-English links, hope Google translation can help...

Krille
September 29th, 2013, 06:31 AM
I found the original zip package in my archive, it contains much more than just a driver. I missed a way to upload any file other than image here, but I verified that there is an alternative link still valid at:
http://wch.cn/download/down.asp?id=57

Thanks!

archeocomp
September 29th, 2013, 07:21 AM
The card is still for sell on TAOBAO (Chinese equivalent to eBay) for 160 (about $23) here (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.Wq6ZLk&id=4114188724&_u=t9j0j4lf110), but again, without backplate. You have to DIY one for use in AT case. They normally don't do international shipping tho.
The price is OK, but irrelevant if they don not ship to foreign countries. What a pitty, it is a nice card.

Chuck(G)
September 29th, 2013, 08:15 AM
I suspect that some Chinese-made stuff is known simply by the chipset as a model number (Use a USB information tool to tell you the vendor ID). My USB-serial cable, for instance has no manufacturer's branding, but the Vendor and Product ID shows it to be a CH341 (a WCH chip), which, although used as a RS232 converter, can equally be suited to parallel or memory interfaces as well.

So, if some enterprising builder can find a batch of CH375 chips, I suspect that a very serviceable ISA-to-USB card can be designed from the application notes and that drivers are available also with a bit of looking.

RubberTelly
September 29th, 2013, 01:22 PM
Cool, you guys rock...you found a card...Maybe we can use a programmed FX2LP chip to do the same thing?

Chuck(G)
September 29th, 2013, 02:17 PM
Well, there are a lot of choices. One thing you don't need (because you won't be able to support the bandwidth) is USB 2.0, so money tossed that way is probably wasted. Same for USB OTG.

There are a lot of coices. There is a ton of IP cores, some free, for USB host on an FPGA. I like the CH375/374 for a couple of reasons, however. It's USB 1.1 It comes in a 28-pin SOP, which means that the average hobbyist can solder it. It's 5.0 or 3.3V Vcc

The negative is that I don't know if the chip is still available, although the manufacturer's web site would seem to indicate that it is.

eeguru
September 29th, 2013, 06:26 PM
Rubber, the FX2 is a fabulous chip and been around for 15 years now, but it is a USB device only. It would only be useful in connecting to a PC. I've toyed around with the idea of making a bus sniffer out of it, but you still would have to have an FPGA in the middle as the parallel engine on the FX2 is a finicky beast. It has an 8051 core on-board, but it isn't fast enough to do much - definitely not fast enough to move data. Thus if you want a device only solution and still have to have some programmable logic in the middle, a FT2232H would be much cheaper choice. FX2s are pricey.

The only prayer of getting an entirely through hole USB host solution would be a PIC32 in a DIP28 with a pair of IDT7200 buffers for command and control. But it would leave you a bit resource limited.

archeocomp
September 29th, 2013, 11:10 PM
So, if some enterprising builder can find a batch of CH375 chips, I suspect that a very serviceable ISA-to-USB card can be designed from the application notes and that drivers are available also with a bit of looking.
They can be found at UTSOURCE
Quantity 1 2~10 11~30 31~50 51~100
Unit Price $ 5.00 /piece $ 4.50 /piece $ 4.25 /piece $ 4.00 /piece $ 3.50 /piece

Sleepwalker3
March 30th, 2014, 07:06 AM
The price is OK, but irrelevant if they don not ship to foreign countries. What a pitty, it is a nice card.

Why do you think they don't ship to foreign countries? Just get a TaoBao agent, give them the details. For example, you can go to http://www.newbuybay.com (they are just one) and post the URL and they will give you the price and freight cost.

mluti
July 3rd, 2014, 04:21 PM
Very interesting posts and suggestions...

So, time goes-by...
Any one got source for an Cypress SL811HST based board ?

I spending time to fight with CH375 board from China, and since is no luck, perhaps there is another solution, similar to Cypress...
Please advise.
Thank you,
mluti

ineverland
August 11th, 2015, 01:36 AM
Have you successfully boot an 8088 XT from usb sticks with this isa-to-usb card? If it can be done ,then I will buy one,Wait online...

Back to the topic. I'm not sure if there is a massive demand for using USB keyboard, USB sound codec or USB printer on vintage computers. But imo, using USB mass-storage does matter for the sake of convenience and cool. Actually, I have been using USB sticks on my 386DX-40 and DX4-100 for 2+ years. The product I use is a CH375 based ISA card with an USB port on its backplate (as pictured). Yes, it comes with a little (4kB) DOS driver that can be loaded by config.sys which adds a new DOS drive letter (H:\ for eg.) also visible under Windows 3.x. It allows me to use USB stick, USB card reader or USB external HD with my ISA rigs, including my 8088 XT clone (8-bit ISA), with reasonable r/w speed. It supports hot-swap and even boot from USB (if a boot ROM is installed). However, it may not be a general USB solution for ISA bus but just USB mass-storage only, and the storage has to be formatted in FAT (required by DOS). I have not yet tested it with USB hub or CD/DVD. But I do prefer its convenience over floppy disks, LL3 or FTP (command line).

So far, I'm just a user without putting any thought on what else this product can do with USB. I'm happy with its existing simplicity of use because that's all I need for my $18. Maybe it is not something truly belong to vintage computers. But it's another nice retrofit option similar to those modern LCD monitors, CF cards or FDB-based HDDs often seen in today's retro projects.

I bought it from a random online seller in China. I don't have a valid URL anymore (sorry) but full information about this product is easy to access by Googling with keywords: USB ISA CH375. That's why I didn't bother to post it here as I assume it's something known without mention.



1537615377153781537915380

Anonymous Coward
August 11th, 2015, 06:44 AM
Is there any hope of getting a USB mouse going on CH375?

jh1523
August 11th, 2015, 10:59 AM
I found the card in question on aliexpress (I shop there quite regularly for electronic parts)

The good news? It's available for $26, and they ship worldwide.
The bad news? The shipping starts at $70 for one piece.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/ISA-TO-USB/1896817972.html



It looks like the seller also has a FDD/USB stick adapter for $45, with outrageous shipping as well http://www.aliexpress.com/item/FDD-UDD-COM1/1896977789.html

new_castle_j
August 11th, 2015, 11:29 AM
I found the card in question on aliexpress (I shop there quite regularly for electronic parts)

The good news? It's available for $26, and they ship worldwide.
The bad news? The shipping starts at $70 for one piece.



You'll get the same price, but pay only a few dollars for shipping by going thru a TaoBao agent

Sleepwalker3
August 11th, 2015, 11:39 AM
I haven't dealt with Aliexpress, but it may be worth asking the seller if there are cheaper shipping options. If it's from China, then there are usually lots of options and some very cheap ones if you don't mind waiting 4 weeks. The FDD/USB adaptors are readily available on ebay complete with case that looks like a FDD and fits exactly into the slot, but be careful to look at various types. Some are setup to be able to do 100 'disks' on the USB, some are just for 1 disk.

jh1523
August 11th, 2015, 11:44 AM
I haven't dealt with Aliexpress, but it may be worth asking the seller if there are cheaper shipping options. If it's from China, then there are usually lots of options and some very cheap ones if you don't mind waiting 4 weeks. The FDD/USB adaptors are readily available on ebay complete with case that looks like a FDD and fits exactly into the slot, but be careful to look at various types. Some are setup to be able to do 100 'disks' on the USB, some are just for 1 disk.

Actually I have one of the even newer ones that does 1000 floppies on a stick. But the PC software to format and write to the floppy partitions is still very annoying and works best with versions of Windows up to XP (I use a virtual XP machine for this purpose).

Like I said I have dealt with aliexpress a lot for electronic parts lately, however it seems that this particular seller is peculiar about its shipping. It looks like he is the sole source of these kind of boards and I wouldn't be surprised if he insisted on "his" shipping.


You'll get the same price, but pay only a few dollars for shipping by going thru a TaoBao agent

I haven't dealt with taobao at all, how does the "agent" thing work?

pietja
August 11th, 2015, 01:43 PM
If the shipping is so expensive why don't we make our own board?
The schematics, bios, driver, PCB and gal code are all available.
http://www.wch.cn/download/CH375X86_ZIP.html

Also the board that is available on aliexpress is exactly the same as the one in the Altium file that is included in the zip file.
25784

pearce_jj
August 11th, 2015, 01:53 PM
When I looked in to this a couple of years back the chip itself seemed to have nonexistent availability as a bare component; maybe that has changed. I've actually got one of these but never gotten around to testing it.

ineverland
August 11th, 2015, 04:50 PM
No,CH375 is designed to handle usb storage device.

Is there any hope of getting a USB mouse going on CH375?

jh1523
August 11th, 2015, 09:34 PM
When I looked in to this a couple of years back the chip itself seemed to have nonexistent availability as a bare component; maybe that has changed. I've actually got one of these but never gotten around to testing it.

CH375 and CH376 are available as chips fairly cheaply on aliexpress. For instance http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CH375B-CH375-SOP28-USB-Original-authentic-and-new-free-shipping-ic/32395491988.html $10 for five pieces with free shipping.



If the shipping is so expensive why don't we make our own board?
The schematics, bios, driver, PCB and gal code are all available.
http://www.wch.cn/download/CH375X86_ZIP.html

Also the board that is available on aliexpress is exactly the same as the one in the Altium file that is included in the zip file.
25784


I've actually ordered a couple of these: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-CH375-module-51-to-read-and-write-U-disk-USB-communication-in-stock/557608224.html Shouldn't be too difficult to interface to ISA with a little bit of glue logic.

pearce_jj
August 11th, 2015, 10:42 PM
Are drivers and source available?

jh1523
August 12th, 2015, 01:55 AM
I'll investigate the contents of the driver package linked earlier in the thread once I get back from vacation next week. Currently my only connection is my phone.

The chip's datasheet seems to be at http://www.8bit.8u.cz/Files/CH375/CH375DS1.pdf

Also CH376 at http://www.mpja.com/download/ch376ds1.pdf (compatible with CH375, has extra SD interface in addition to USB)

griffk
August 12th, 2015, 05:55 AM
If the shipping is so expensive why don't we make our own board?
The schematics, bios, driver, PCB and gal code are all available.
http://www.wch.cn/download/CH375X86_ZIP.html

Also the board that is available on aliexpress is exactly the same as the one in the Altium file that is included in the zip file.
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25784&stc=1

I don't see source for most of the files -- only executables for the most part

gwk

new_castle_j
August 12th, 2015, 06:16 AM
I haven't dealt with taobao at all, how does the "agent" thing work?

I just ordered a couple of these cards by using TaoBao agent Yoybuy.com
I went to TaoBao.com and searched for ISA USB, found a seller, provided the url of the seller's advertisement to yoybuy and had them place an order. Shipping plus the agent fee was about $11

pietja
August 12th, 2015, 08:32 AM
I don't see source for most of the files -- only executables for the most part

gwk
These files seem to contain 8086 source code but because everything is in chinese i can't tell what the code is for.
http://www.wch.cn/download/CH375LIB_V30_ZIP.html
http://www.wch.cn/download/CH375LIB_ZIP.html

Sleepwalker3
August 14th, 2015, 08:41 AM
I haven't dealt with taobao at all, how does the "agent" thing work?

This was answered on the DP forum in various posts. It's a bit unsual for those of us used to ebay, but basically you find the stuff you want on TaoBao, then you pass the details (link) to the Taobao agent, they buy the stuff, add a fee and shipping, then you approve it and pay. There are many agents, but finding one that speaks English can be a battle.
You can try ones like http://www.newbuybay.com/
For DP posts on this you can go to DP and search of have a look at some of these -

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2014/12/29/on-the-first-day-of-taobao-christmas/
http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/03/28/taobao-shopping-service-bhiner-review/

pietja
August 15th, 2015, 10:11 AM
Is there any hope of getting a USB mouse going on CH375?
No the CH375 has an build in USB stack that handles only mass storage devices.

To get any USB device working we would need the CH374 which has no USB stack inside it, but that requires the development an entire USB stack for DOS.