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fradge
November 26th, 2013, 06:18 AM
I am trying to get my newly restored 5150 to boot from the hard drive. I am able to access the hard drive. I think I remember it was able to do that back in the day. I tried booting with no floppy in the drive with switch 1 in both positions. No luck.
On another note. What is the best way to get downloaded files onto the 5150 from a modern PC? Can I bye a IDE 5.25 floppy drive for my i7? I sure can't use a thumb drive.

Stone
November 26th, 2013, 06:38 AM
Gary, to make the HD bootable type 'SYS C:' after you have booted from the floppy.

I've never seen an IDE floppy. In any case, you will need a machine with a 5¼" 360K to write floppies for that machine.

fradge
November 26th, 2013, 06:58 AM
Gary, to make the HD bootable type 'SYS C:' after you have booted from the floppy.

I've never seen an IDE floppy. In any case, you will need a machine with a 5¼" 360K to write floppies for that machine.

And what machine, for instance, would I need that I can use as a go between?

fradge
November 26th, 2013, 07:00 AM
As far as making the HD bootable, I won't loose any files that are on there?

SomeGuy
November 26th, 2013, 07:34 AM
The SYS command will not erase any data files, but you might want to check if there is supposed to be a version of DOS already installed on the drive. (Look for a C:\COMMAND.COM, hidden IO/DOS .SYS files and a C:\DOS folder). Ideally you should SYS the drive with the same version of DOS.

You should also check with FDISK that the partition is marked as "active".

As for getting files to the machine, your best bet is to obtain a "tweener" system, and add a 360k 5.25" drive to it. Full-sized desktop Windows 98 computers usually work well for this. Windows 9x or earlier will easily let you run programs to re-create copy protected or non-standard disks.

Another option is to add a 3.5" 720k drive to your 5150 (a common 1.44mb internal should work as 720k on a low-density controller) and then hunt down a USB 1.44mb drive that supports 720k.

To the best of my knowledge no 5.25" drives are available for PCs that use anything other than the old standard FDC header.

Stone
November 26th, 2013, 07:39 AM
The SYS command will not erase any data files, but you might want to check if there is supposed to be a version of DOS already installed on the drive. (Look for a C:\COMMAND.COM, hidden IO/DOS .SYS files and a C:\DOS folder). Ideally you should SYS the drive with the same version of DOS.He doesn't really have any choice at the moment as the only bootable floppy he has is DOS 3.3.

krebizfan
November 26th, 2013, 07:52 AM
As far as making the HD bootable, I won't loose any files that are on there?

Can you read the disk after booting with a floppy? If you can, then SYS will work and the files will be safe. If you can't (because the disk had a strange format or any other reason), then you may have to format or partition (fdisk) the drive. Do that and the data on disk will be lost. I recommend backing up the contents of the drive (if possible) before experimenting.

For go between, almost any system prior to the Pentium III (and some after) can accept a 360KB dual sided drive and make it easy to transfer small files. If you find a system with a big enough case, you can extract the drive from the 5150 and use it in a newer system to make necessary disks and then return the drive to the 5150. Unfortunately, getting the right 5.25" floppy drive is expensive these days.

Other transfer options:
the Backpack floppy which puts a 3.5" 1.44MB floppy drive on a parallel port while a USB floppy would be attached to the I7
Zip drives can also be attached to the parallel port but purchase of a PalmZip driver would be needed. The I7 system would have a USB Zip Drive to match.

fradge
November 26th, 2013, 07:55 AM
The SYS command will not erase any data files, but you might want to check if there is supposed to be a version of DOS already installed on the drive. (Look for a C:\COMMAND.COM, hidden IO/DOS .SYS files and a C:\DOS folder). Ideally you should SYS the drive with the same version of DOS.

You should also check with FDISK that the partition is marked as "active".

As for getting files to the machine, your best bet is to obtain a "tweener" system, and add a 360k 5.25" drive to it. Full-sized desktop Windows 98 computers usually work well for this. Windows 9x or earlier will easily let you run programs to re-create copy protected or non-standard disks.

Another option is to add a 3.5" 720k drive to your 5150 (a common 1.44mb internal should work as 720k on a low-density controller) and then hunt down a USB 1.44mb drive that supports 720k.

To the best of my knowledge no 5.25" drives are available for PCs that use anything other than the old standard FDC header.

There is a DOS directory. Command.com is at the root level so is MSDOS.sys and IO.sys. fdisk shows c: as primary dos partition.
Is that 3.5" 720 an MFM interface?

Stone
November 26th, 2013, 08:05 AM
Then you already have DOS on the HD. What's the date on command.com? That will tell us its version.

fradge
November 26th, 2013, 08:37 AM
Then you already have DOS on the HD. What's the date on command.com? That will tell us its version.

7-24-87
BTW thank you for this.

Stone
November 26th, 2013, 08:55 AM
It's MS-DOS 3.3 but it's a different release than the floppy disk that you have. Shouldn't make any difference if you do a SYS C: to the HD.

But before doing that try FDISK/MBR from the floppy.

SomeGuy
November 26th, 2013, 09:39 AM
According to my info, "07/24/1987 12:00a 25,276 COMMAND.COM" is from MS-DOS® Version 3.30A DTK OEM.

I would suggest making a copy of the hidden IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS and COMMAND.COM before running SYS on the drive, but with PC-DOS 3.3 or Vanilla MS-DOS 3.3, anything in the C:\DOS folder should still work.

MikeS
November 26th, 2013, 10:28 AM
There is a DOS directory. Command.com is at the root level so is MSDOS.sys and IO.sys. fdisk shows c: as primary dos partition. Wonder why it doesn't boot then. Is that partition Active? What message do you get, if any, when trying to boot without a floppy?

Is that 3.5" 720 an MFM interface?IDE and MFM are hard disk interfaces, not applicable to floppy drives.

Looks like no one's mentioned a cable connection for transferring data using Interlink or similar 'networking' software; does your 'server' still have a serial port?

Stone
November 26th, 2013, 10:42 AM
IDE and MFM are hard disk interfaces, not applicable to floppy drives.FWIW, technically, floppies are actually MFM drives. I believe this is from Chuck(G) so I tend to believe that it's correct.


Looks like no one's mentioned a cable connection for transferring data using Interlink or similar 'networking' software; does your 'server' still have a serial port?Really, Mike, an i7 with a serial port? :-)

MikeS
November 26th, 2013, 03:36 PM
FWIW, technically, floppies are actually MFM drives. I believe this is from Chuck(G) so I tend to believe that it's correct.Yes, but I think we're talking about the interface, (ST412/506 if you want to be pedantic), not the recording method... ;-)


Really, Mike, an i7 with a serial port? :-)Never hurts to ask; How about a Bluetooth or USB<>serial adapter and terminal progs?

So why doesn't it boot from the HD?

Chuck(G)
November 26th, 2013, 03:44 PM
Solid state hard disks aren't disks--they're usually rectangular and don't usually spin. Whether they "seek" is a matter of splitting hairs. Come to think of it, most regular hard disks are solid-state; they contain no vacuum tubes.

My, how technology raises hob with language! :)

Stone
November 26th, 2013, 04:00 PM
Never hurts to ask; How about a ..... USB<>serial adapter and terminal progs?If that works as unreliably as the USB-Parallel adapter I have you can forget it. :-) Have you had any measure of success with USB to Serial or Parallel adapters? I sure haven't. But a PCI Parallel or Serial card would do the trick.

k2x4b524[
November 26th, 2013, 04:26 PM
Ive had moderate success using one of those usb -->> serial / parallel adapters in win 7, it is really anal. My P5N-D has a parallel port on it, god help you getting a parallel to scsi working in anything above xp IMHO


If that works as unreliably as the USB-Parallel adapter I have you can forget it. :-) Have you had any measure of success with USB to Serial or Parallel adapters? I sure haven't. But a PCI Parallel or Serial card would do the trick.

yuhong
November 26th, 2013, 04:40 PM
Solid state hard disks aren't disks--they're usually rectangular and don't usually spin. Whether they "seek" is a matter of splitting hairs. Come to think of it, most regular hard disks are solid-state; they contain no vacuum tubes.

My, how technology raises hob with language! :)
My favorite is the word "chipset" that is still used even though today's Intel chipsets no longer consist of multiple chips at all.

modem7
November 26th, 2013, 11:52 PM
Lots of IBM 5150 information at http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/index.htm

There:
See [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5150_5160/720k/5150_5160_boot_using_720k.htm)] for using 720K diskettes with the IBM supplied floppy controller.
See [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/transfer/transfer.htm)] for some means of transferring files between your 5150 and a 'modern' PC.

fradge
November 27th, 2013, 06:19 AM
Thanks for everyones help. I have now booted from the C: drive and have launched applications I haven't seen in years. Lotus Symphony, Formworks, Dollars and Sense and PCTOOLS.

fradge
November 27th, 2013, 10:41 AM
Lots of IBM 5150 information at http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/index.htm

There:
See [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5150_5160/720k/5150_5160_boot_using_720k.htm)] for using 720K diskettes with the IBM supplied floppy controller.
See [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/transfer/transfer.htm)] for some means of transferring files between your 5150 and a 'modern' PC.

Thanks for the recommendation. I have the later version of the IBM 5.25 floppy drive adapter. Problem is after entering DRIVER=C:\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /D:0 /F:2 in the config.sys (on line 3) the PC boots with UNRECOGNIZED COMMAND in config.sys`

MikeS
November 27th, 2013, 12:58 PM
If that works as unreliably as the USB-Parallel adapter I have you can forget it. :-) Have you had any measure of success with USB to Serial or Parallel adapters?I wouldn't expect any of the transfer programs like Interlink to work through USB (which is why I specified using terminal programs) but I've certainly used both parallel and serial USB converters with parallel printers and various serial devices respectively with no problems (once you get the com port and IRQ numbers sorted out).

Bluetooth<>RS-232 converters also work well for me for wireless file transfers between a BT-equipped 'server' and an RS-232-equipped 'client' running terminal programs on both ends (Hyperterm etc. vs. Telix etc.).

And then of course there are the parallel and serial port to Ethernet adapters for wired conections...

The slight drawback using terminal programs is that in most (but not all) cases you need to actively be on both ends, i.e. type 'Receive' on one end and 'Send' on the other, as opposed to transfer programs that let the 'server' run unattended, in the background, or even completely headless like a 'real' network server, and of course you can't actually run programs on the 'server' as you can with Interlink etc.


But a PCI Parallel or Serial card would do the trick.That's why I said it never hurts to ask what ports the 'server' may or may not have available.

Stone
November 27th, 2013, 01:46 PM
That's why I said it never hurts to ask what ports the 'server' may or may not have available.I don't think any i7 systems come with that option and was confident the OP hadn't installed one. :-)

MikeS
November 27th, 2013, 04:28 PM
I don't think any i7 systems come with that option and was confident the OP hadn't installed one. :-)Hey, you suggested it ;-) :

But a PCI Parallel or Serial card would do the trick.
But back to the topic: what was the answer?

giobbi
November 27th, 2013, 04:50 PM
On another note. What is the best way to get downloaded files onto the 5150 from a modern PC? Can I bye a IDE 5.25 floppy drive for my i7? I sure can't use a thumb drive.

see: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/transfer/transfer.htm

I'm succesfully using laplink between a modern PC and my XT (5160). Of course it would require some free RAM, I don't know if it will run in a 5150...
However, get Laplink5 and a cross serial cable. Run it on the modern PC in pure DOS (You can install FreeDOS on a pendrive and boot from USB) or a dos shell of a Win9x machine. Choose "remote install" from the menu and follow the instructions (you will need to type two line from the dos command line on the old PC to activate the COM transfer).
It will install automatically (the LL5.exe file will be copied on the old PC) and you will able to transfer whatever you want from one PC to another. Then you can start to use a cross LPT cable if you want to increase performance.

You should easily find Laplink5 googling it (I checked it few days ago) or look on http://vetusware.com/search/ . If you can't find it, write me in PM and I will sent it to you.

-- Giovi

UPDATE: sorry, too fast answering, I miss the part where you're telling you have no serial port. But if you have a free IDE port, why not to throw away 3 euros (free shipping) in this card:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/HIGH-SPEED-PCI-CONTROLLER-CARD-3-PORT-PCI-EXPRESS-SERIAL-PARALLEL-COMBO-ADAPTER-/400587895007?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d44e630df
I believe you won't find a cheaper solution :-)

Stone
November 27th, 2013, 06:05 PM
Hey, you suggested it ;-) :Ya', but the suggestion was for him to install one. :-)

MikeS
November 27th, 2013, 06:38 PM
UPDATE: sorry, too fast answering, I miss the part where you're telling you have no serial port.No, that's just Stone's assumption (probably correct though) ;-) I asked the OP whether he has a serial port of some kind but he hasn't answered.

Many/most of those add-on serial/parallel port cards etc. are not usable in DOS and can be as tricky to implement as the USB adapters; might be worth a try though...

SpidersWeb
November 27th, 2013, 07:33 PM
No, that's just Stone's assumption (probably correct though) ;-) I asked the OP whether he has a serial port of some kind but he hasn't answered.

Many/most of those add-on serial/parallel port cards etc. are not usable in DOS and can be as tricky to implement as the USB adapters; might be worth a try though...

Another option for "USB" is FastLynx 3.3. I was going to suggest it, but I haven't tested the 'Remote Upload DOS client' using USB yet.
But I have used it to go Windows 7 -> $12 USB serial adaptor -> null modem cable -> IPC AT at 115,200 with it. DOS file transfer tools (LL3 and FX2) failed with the same USB adapter (used DOSBox I think).

giobbi
November 28th, 2013, 05:35 AM
Another option for "USB" is FastLynx 3.3. I was going to suggest it, but I haven't tested the 'Remote Upload DOS client' using USB yet.
But I have used it to go Windows 7 -> $12 USB serial adaptor -> null modem cable -> IPC AT at 115,200 with it. DOS file transfer tools (LL3 and FX2) failed with the same USB adapter (used DOSBox I think).

I don't believe Laplink will work under Dosbox. But I have an USB -> serial adapter, so I tried to connect my WinXP to my 5160 XT, and it's working fine (It's copying Zak McKracken while I'm writing :-) ). The USB -> serial add a COM3 serial port on the device list.

Note: if you get an unrecoverable error while LL5 is accessing the COM ports, you need to edit the TSR.INI file into your Laplink V folder enabling only the usb -> serial (in my case it's the COM 3).

If you're in doubt where to get Laplink V, get it from www.vetusware.com or from here (http://www.verrua.org/abandoned/laplink5.zip)


Here you have the TSR.INI config configured for COM3 only:

[General]
ComputerName=Giovi_XP
GroupName=GroupName
RedialTries=1
RedialSeconds=15
[LapLink]
DateFormat=0
WeekStartsMonday=No
TimeFormat=0
24HourTime=No
DoubleClickTime=Medium
BeepDuration=Short
ThousandsSeparator=,
DisplayColor=1
CursorStyle=Underscore
SwapButtons=No
Confirmations=Copy Move Mouse
FlickerFix=No
DisplayTimes=No
LongMenus=Yes
CopyReport=No
CopyNewer=Yes
ConfirmOverwrites=No
SelectSubdirs=Yes
CopyExisting=No
OverwriteReadOnly=No
CopyByDateRange=No
CopyDateOnlyToday=Yes
CopyRecentDays=No
CopyRecentDayCount=7
CopyDates=
Compression=No
AutoTreeUpdate=No
TurboMode=Yes
SameDisplayOptions=No
LeftWindow=ShowAll SortByName Ascending ListMode *.* HideSystem
RightWindow=ShowAll SortByName Ascending ListMode *.* HideSystem
UsePrefix=No
UseSuffix=No
UseRetries=No
LastNumberDialed=0
Editor=LE
CommonRecording1= ~1.
CommonRecording2= ~2.
CommonRecording3= ~3.
CommonRecording4= ~4.
[COM1]
Type=Serial
Enabled.LL=No
TransferMode=Best
Baud=0
[COM2]
Type=Serial
Enabled.LL=No
TransferMode=Best
Baud=0
[COM3]
Type=Serial
Enabled.LL=Yes
TransferMode=Best
Baud=0
[COM4]
Type=Serial
Enabled.LL=No
TransferMode=Best
Baud=0
[LPT1]
Type=Parallel
Enabled.LL=No
IRQ=0
TransferMode=Best
[LPT2]
Type=Parallel
Enabled.LL=No
IRQ=0
TransferMode=Best
[LPT3]
Type=Parallel
Enabled.LL=No
IRQ=0
TransferMode=Best
[IPX]
Type=IPX/SPX
Enabled.LL=No

fradge
November 28th, 2013, 10:28 AM
I have a serial port on a Laptop running NT

SomeGuy
November 28th, 2013, 11:44 AM
Well, speak of the devil, this just turned up on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MS-DOS-3-30A-Microsoft-Operating-System-Vintage-5-25-5-1-4-Disk-Software-Master-/221326293538?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3388133a22#ht_382wt_864
(although, as always they want too much).
I am wondering though, if perhaps this OEM version is designed to refuse to boot on non DTK-OEM hardware, either intentionally, or unintentionally. I recall some early Tandy-OEM copies of MS-DOS were like that. Of course the OP's original problem may have been something else like a corrupted boot sector.

Good to hear it is working now though.