PDA

View Full Version : Hard disc recommendations



bettablue
December 24th, 2013, 06:49 AM
OK, so I'm having trouble with a couple of hard disc drives. One of my MFM drives is an 11 MB MiniScribe full height unit and the other is a 10 MB Xebec full height MFM drive. One is installed in my IBM 5161 expansion unit, and the other in my XT machine.

I've been doing a lot of reading and have learned that the MFM drives in general are quite troublesome, so I was considering the purchase of a pair of SCSI drives and controllers. The only bad thing about this is that in order to completely replace all of my MFM drives, I will need 2 SCSI controllers, and three hard disc drives. I also understand that the size limitations are pretty much non existent in regards to the original IBM systems.

So, right now, I'm curious if replacing the MFM drives with SCSI drives would be worth the money. I know as an investment, SCSI drives will be much more stable. But I have already made a deal to buy 2 Control Data MFM hard discs.

What are your thoughts on replacing the MFM drives with SCSI in the next year or so? Should I, or not?

Thanks much.

Stone
December 24th, 2013, 07:03 AM
Get something Solid State. Then you won't have any problems and since they're IDE interface devices they're even much simpler to install than any of the other varieties or types. :-)

mbbrutman
December 24th, 2013, 07:47 AM
MFM refers to the technology used in the drive. You are mistaking the interface with the technology.

A 25 year old MFM drive with a SCSI interface will have the same problems as your 25 year old drives with the ST506 interface that you are using now. You will need a mid 90s or later drive, and those are still pushing 20 years old.

Go with XT IDE with FLASH like people are already recommending you to in other threads.

pearce_jj
December 24th, 2013, 08:54 AM
A blatant plug for my site... but I'm expecting more PCB stock in the next couple of weeks - Lo-tech.co.uk Shop (http://www.lo-tech.co.uk/shop/)

I'm also intending to offer a small number of boards assembled and tested. And maybe even a couple of 500KB/s XT-CFv3 boards... I found two CPLDs. Those will be the last of them though, since the 5V CPLDs are all long gone now.

Malc
December 24th, 2013, 11:22 PM
I can understand you wanting to keep the machines as original as possible but like others have said XT-IDE is a good way to go and will likely save you money in the long run, Those old hard drives are really pushing past their life span, I have XT-IDE rev 1 cards in a couple of my machines and they work very well.



OK, so I'm having trouble with a couple of hard disc drives....

fatwizard
December 25th, 2013, 12:01 AM
I have been using an 8 bit scsi card (Seagate ST01) with external hard drives from the beginning of my vintage hobby. I was in love with the big old IBM WD25 drive in my XT, but I didn't trust it, so I was wanted the scsi drives to keep things backed up. I started buying old external units originally for the Mac, and my experience has been that the oldest ones have all the same issues as the ST506 drives do. I ended up buying a couple of 3.5" Quantum Pro drives (both 250 meg) 50 pin scsi from ebay. They have been rock solid, but they lack the character of older drives. The issues I've had with scsi are as follows.

Had to upgrade the bios on the Seagate controller to recognize the Quantum drives.

Had power supply failures in the external enclosures (bad capacitors). One of them damaged two of my hard drives before I figured it out!

Scsi is rather mysterious. I have never successfully connected more than one drive. You are supposed to be able to have up to seven devices on this card, but I can't get it to work.

I had one full size CDC 150 meg scsi drive installed in the XT for a while, but it started to fade on me.

Conclusion. Old hard drives are old hard drives, regardless of interface. A scsi controller might well let you use newer drives as it has me.

I do feel I have to draw a line somewhere on how much modern equipment I use on a vintage machine. It's all about how you use the computer, of course, but what about 4164 memory chips that like to pop off, or capacitors that like to fail? If you want a fast, quiet, reliable computer, just buy a new one, and that's no fun at all.

P.S. The old IBM WD25 drive in the XT has sailed right on without issue thru all my scsi playing around.

bettablue
December 25th, 2013, 07:27 AM
Again, thanks Mike. The reason for this thread is fairly simple. I was hoping to get information regarding the MFM drives vs. SCSI in terms of performance, and the fact that SCSI drives are not only cheaper, but more reliable, faster, etc. I got the answers I was looking for. However, as I had stated, I'll be buying 2 XT-IDE boards for my IBM machines. I have a lot of questions regarding the XT-IDE, but those I'll get answered as I do more research in VCF, and the XT-IDE web site. True, vintage hard drives are getting long in the tooth, regardless of the technology, but they are more reliable. MFM drives have a reputation of not being that stable, so, in that regard, SCSI is the way to go.

I have made the decision to go with the XT-IDE board for both of my IBM computers, as well as my Compaq Portables, and other systems compatible with the PC as their drives begin to fail. However, I'll probably buy the 1st revision boards which have already been assembled and tested. I've watched some videos on YouTube and other sites covering the XT-IDE installation, and set up. And from what I can tell, it's really pretty simple. I agree that using drives of the ages you specify is pushing their longevity to lengths that they were never meant to surpass, but still; if I can keep them working for just a little while longer, then I'll try to stay with the technology I'm somewhat familiar with.

The only thing I would want to do in addition to swapping out the hard disc drives is to see about finding a rear expansion plate that has either the CF, or USB adapter, or possibly even one adapter for both which would take up only one expansion bay on the rear of my expansion unit, and the XT machine. Can someone point me to a couple of adapters that would do the job?

Again Mike, and everyone who replied... Have a Very Merry Christmas and Happy new Year..

Thanks again...

~BB~


MFM refers to the technology used in the drive. You are mistaking the interface with the technology.

A 25 year old MFM drive with a SCSI interface will have the same problems as your 25 year old drives with the ST506 interface that you are using now. You will need a mid 90s or later drive, and those are still pushing 20 years old.

Go with XT IDE with FLASH like people are already recommending you to in other threads.

mbbrutman
December 25th, 2013, 08:19 AM
"MFM drives have a reputation of not being that stable, so, in that regard, SCSI is the way to go."

Once again, you are confusing MFM and SCSI. When you say MFM you probably mean ST506 interface which is what the old Xebec controllers used in the XT class machines use. SCSI is an alternative controller. Drives using both ST506 and SCSI can be built on "MFM" techology, which refers to the electronics and mechanisms within the drive.

Use the Seagate ST-225 as an example. The common version of this drive is the ST506 interface. The SCSI version is the ST-225N. Both are MFM drives - the only difference is the controller they use. And both are going to be equally unreliable at this point.

Your only benefit to going with SCSI is that newer SCSI drives will generally work on older controllers. So you can cheat death a few years by running a 1GB drive on an old 8 bit controller. That is a good reason to use SCSI, at least for a few more years. But 8 bit SCSI controllers don't grow on trees ...

bettablue
December 25th, 2013, 08:26 AM
You are exactly correct. I was, and probably will still be confusing the technologies. Hopefully, after doing some additional reading, I'll get it straightened out, but in all actuality Mike, you have already done most of that for me already.

As always... Thanks again. This little bit of education will go a long way.




"MFM drives have a reputation of not being that stable, so, in that regard, SCSI is the way to go."

Once again, you are confusing MFM and SCSI. When you say MFM you probably mean ST506 interface which is what the old Xebec controllers used in the XT class machines use. SCSI is an alternative controller. Drives using both ST506 and SCSI can be built on "MFM" techology, which refers to the electronics and mechanisms within the drive.

Use the Seagate ST-225 as an example. The common version of this drive is the ST506 interface. The SCSI version is the ST-225N. Both are MFM drives - the only difference is the controller they use. And both are going to be equally unreliable at this point.

Your only benefit to going with SCSI is that newer SCSI drives will generally work on older controllers. So you can cheat death a few years by running a 1GB drive on an old 8 bit controller. That is a good reason to use SCSI, at least for a few more years. But 8 bit SCSI controllers don't grow on trees ...

pearce_jj
December 25th, 2013, 12:05 PM
The only thing I would want to do in addition to swapping out the hard disc drives is to see about finding a rear expansion plate that has either the CF, or USB adapter... Can someone point me to a couple of adapters that would do the job?

Surely, this (http://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/XT-CFv3)?

Chuck(G)
December 25th, 2013, 12:15 PM
I really like the XT-CFv2 board that I have--nice slot for a CF card in the bracket. The only fly in the ointment is that it does require SMT assembly skills, but I didn't find that daunting--just a good iron and some soldering braid--and a good magnifier. Performance is excellent.

bettablue
December 25th, 2013, 12:40 PM
And this will connect to the XT-IDE to make a solid connection? If yes, then it will be perfect. Like I said, I have a lot more reading to do before I buy the XT-IDE boards.

This looks perfect! Thanks.


Surely, this (http://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/XT-CFv3)?

Chuck(G)
December 25th, 2013, 01:15 PM
No connection to the XTIDE--this is a complete controller using a CF card instead of an IDE drive.

bettablue
December 26th, 2013, 12:48 PM
Excellent Chuck! Unfortunately, my soldering skills are up to the task, but my vision isn't due to complications of diabetes. (Yeah, just one more nail) Still, I think getting one already assembled isn't unheard of, and they are much less expensive than the CFFA3000 board made for the Apple II line. For now though, I'll go with the option that will cost me the least, and that means, buying 2 Control Data full height drives and configure my MFM controller for those in both my 5150, and 5160. Then I can begin saving for 2 XT-IDE boards. At least my computers will be functional until I get the XT-IDE upgrades.




No connection to the XTIDE--this is a complete controller using a CF card instead of an IDE drive.

wesleyfurr
December 29th, 2013, 04:45 PM
I'm a big fan of James' XT-IDE CF Lite cards...though so far I've only managed to get one of the two cards I have assembled. An easy build, small form factor, and it just worked! If you want the external option for the CF cards, you can run a cable to a IDE to CF slot adapter...search ebay for item # 221250436153 as an example. I've got an original XT-IDE card in my old Tandy with two of those adapters in it. Works great...I'm hoping to get a few more of James' cards when he gets more to sell...then I can have them all the old machines I want to tinker with.

I'm assuming the answer is no, but does anyone know if the original XT-IDE and XT-IDE rev2 boards still available for purchase anywhere?

Wesley

bettablue
December 30th, 2013, 05:03 AM
That sounds great! Now you've brought up another question though. You mention using two of the adapters in your Tandy computer. Could you clarify that for me please?

Do you mean you have two XT-IDE boards installed, or are you talking about running just one XT-IDE with two CF/USB adapters with external elots on the rear of the PC, allowing the insertion of separate CF/USB slots?




I'm a big fan of James' XT-IDE CF Lite cards...though so far I've only managed to get one of the two cards I have assembled. An easy build, small form factor, and it just worked! If you want the external option for the CF cards, you can run a cable to a IDE to CF slot adapter...search ebay for item # 221250436153 as an example. I've got an original XT-IDE card in my old Tandy with two of those adapters in it. Works great...I'm hoping to get a few more of James' cards when he gets more to sell...then I can have them all the old machines I want to tinker with.

I'm assuming the answer is no, but does anyone know if the original XT-IDE and XT-IDE rev2 boards still available for purchase anywhere?

Wesley

wesleyfurr
January 14th, 2014, 06:29 PM
That sounds great! Now you've brought up another question though. You mention using two of the adapters in your Tandy computer. Could you clarify that for me please?

Do you mean you have two XT-IDE boards installed, or are you talking about running just one XT-IDE with two CF/USB adapters with external elots on the rear of the PC, allowing the insertion of separate CF/USB slots?

Sorry for the late response...I can't seem to keep up with posts here.

One XT-IDE board, two IDE to Compactflash slot adapters connected to it.

Wesley

bettablue
January 15th, 2014, 10:17 AM
I've made a deal to buy the two Control Data Systems hard discs. :p They are a matching set of full height 30 MB each, using an MFM controller by Western Digital. Since the drives are basically twins, I plan to install both into my 5161 expansion unit for a more "finished" look when the cover is removed. I've found that little things like that not only look tidy, but since they're both the exact same drives, it will be much easier to setup the drives when I install them and configure the controller.

Then too, the price is right. The seller is giving me both drives for only $50.00 total! That's $25.00 each. :p I can't buy an XTIDE for that. Eventually (meaning later this year) I plan to buy at least one XTIDE and install it in my XT machine to see how it works. If it does what I want, then I'll consider putting the XTIDE into my expansion unit. But that brings up a couple of other questions. :dunce:

1. Since the XTIDE has the capability to use both a USB thumb drive, and a CF card, can I have each one assigned it's own drive letter?

2. Can I have a USB adapter, and a CF card adapter installed to the rear of the computer for easy access? I know of a couple of adapters I've seen on E-Bay, but I'm not sure if I can get one rear expansion bay adapter that has both a USB and CF card adapters. Am I barking up the wrong tree with that kind of adapter?

Finally, I may even just wait till the hard disc eventually fails all together, then replace the hard discs with an XTIDE board. Who knows, there may be another revision by then. :frankenstein:

As always, I would sincerely appreciate your opinions and responses.

Thanks in advance.

Chuck(G)
January 15th, 2014, 10:48 AM
1. Since the XTIDE has the capability to use both a USB thumb drive, and a CF card, can I have each one assigned it's own drive letter?

When did that happen? AFAIK, the XTIDE only handles CF and IDE/ATA drives.

SpidersWeb
January 15th, 2014, 10:57 AM
An XTIDE with CF is a brilliant device to have.
But I would never remove perfectly working vintage hard drives. Just my opinion, I just think they're part of the whole IBM 516x experience.

pearce_jj
January 15th, 2014, 11:38 AM
This board (http://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/XT-CF-lite) can co-exist with the IBM stock MFM controller, and has the CF card accessible through the (custom made) expansion slot bracket, so you don't need to open the machine to change the card. I've just ordered more PCBs - should be available in a few weeks :)

bettablue
January 17th, 2014, 05:44 AM
I have made some pretty good friends in VCF over these last three years. In fact, one in particular, who shall remain unnamed at this point in time, who bought and paid for two replacement hard discs for my IBM 5161 and XT machines. As mentioned previously, I was looking to purchase two 30 MB full height Control Data hard discs. Well, my friend paid for them yesterday and I should take delivery no later than Wednesday, Jan 22. With these drives, I'll have a matching set of drives installed into my expansion unit, and a good replacement for the drive in my XT computer. Since all three drives match each other, I'll have some fun putting my vintage IBM systems back together again.

Then the 2nd half of the allthingsdos team, Ed Hall, will be helping me to not only install the drives, but he will be working with me to get the rest of my computers up and running, including a Commodore 64 for me and one for my brother-in-law who lives in Atlanta GA, then there is my Compaq Portable 2, and finally a Packard Bell Legend Force mini tower with a 1st gen 75 MHz processor, 16 MB of RAM and a 4X CD ROM. We'll be upgrading the Packard Bell to eliminate the all-in-one card and install separate components, such as video card, network adapter, sound card etc. So in other words, I'll be quite busy for a while after the CCS drives come in.

I may be in the market for a sound card, and network adapter for the PB.
I know I've asked this before, but does anyone have any suggestions for where I can downloading the PB master restore CD?

Caluser2000
January 17th, 2014, 07:53 AM
There is PB wiki with some master cd images I believe linked to in another VCF thread. If you are going to put in a few extracards the drivers may not be included in the restore cd. Not quite sure what you mean by all in one card. The PB machine may well have the sound, nic etc built in to it's mobo. Do you have some pics of the back of the machine showing the ports etc? A few OEMs did this. A topic for the Pentium class machine forum maybe?

bettablue
February 11th, 2014, 08:53 PM
Well, today was very productive; VERY productive indeed!

I had been battling getting the replacement hard discs working in my IBM 5161 expansion unit. With the major assistance given by modem7, George Minges and especially Ed Hall, the better half of All Things DOS, my IBM 5150/5161 system is back up and operating. Once Ed got into the expansion unit, he began by disconnecting all of the cables between the controller and both hard disc drives, reset the jumpers, and finally swapped the terminator from one drive to the other. Then he reconnected everything. When he finally booted the system up about 15 to 20 minutes later, it allowed him to low level format both hard discs, and install DOS 3.3. Now all I have to do is get my tweener back up and working, so I can reinstall Norton Commander (unless someone has it on either 1.44 MB 3.5" or 360 KB 5.25" floppy disc. I have the ability to use either floppy format on my system) Then I can proceed to install the rest of the programs I have on 360 Kb floppy, i.e. word processing, spreadsheet, and gaming software, and I'll have everything back to where it was before the MiniScribe drive went DOA on me.

There is still one problem that needs to be addressed though. While we had everything open, we found that the power supply fan is making a lot of noise too. So, I'll need to either replace the power supply fan, or the power supply itself. Personally, I am hoping to find the power supply from an IBM 5160 XT to replace the one installed in my IBM 5161 expansion unit. Then I can take my power supply and give it to Ed so he can swap out the fans and he'll have a good replacement power supply for his 5160 XT.

So, does anyone here have either the replacement power supply, or power supply fan? If so, how much do you want, including shipping? Please reply via private messaging. Hope to hear from someone soon, as I really want to get my system back to 100% again.

As always, thanks in advance.

Stone
February 12th, 2014, 03:29 AM
I have lots of fans. I don't know if the fan in a 5161 is identical to one in a 5160 but if someone wants to clue me in I'd take a look thru my stash to see what I have.

Malc
February 12th, 2014, 04:26 AM
If you can get the part number from the fan google it or look on ebay if Stone can't help you, It was a while back but i found the exact same fan i needed from a seller on ebay selling NOS Or Case cooling fans work well and much quieter too.

fatwizard
February 12th, 2014, 08:12 AM
Unless the bearings in the old fan are truly shot, a drop or two of light oil in the right place might be all that's needed to quiet the fan back down.

bettablue
February 12th, 2014, 09:04 AM
Unless the bearings in the old fan are truly shot, a drop or two of light oil in the right place might be all that's needed to quiet the fan back down.

I thought of trying that, but when we opened the power supply, we found that the fan motor is a sealed unit. I suppose if I had a long enough needle I could reach the inner bearing, but if what I'm told in this thread is true, then I can replace the fan with a case cooling fan. I'm really not too fond of that idea, although if others can attest to this replacement, I will try it.

On another note, and still on topic: Between the two of us, both Ed Hall, and I have our own XT computers. Both have bad power supplies. (funny, huh? Is it that common of an issue?) In mine the power supply is completely DOA, but on his, the power supply still works, although its only providing 80% of its required output in both the 12 volt, and the 5 volt sides. 80% isn't enough to get the hard disc to spin up, or to boot the computer. It is also clear that Ed's 5160 had been run quite a while without a cooling fan in the power supply, as there is a burn pattern on the case's upper, right where the power supply sits underneath. So right now, we need to replace his power supply. So, I want to replace it entirely. I see no reason to even try rebuilding it, because of burning on the power supply circuit board, and I'm not sure of how extensive the damage might be. I don't want to waste the time, and money for something that MIGHT work.

The power supply in MY 5160 is completely dead though. But at least there is no burnt area, and the circuit board looks OK. Still, I would rather replace this power supply before trying a rebuild.

As for the power supply in my IBM 5161 Expansion Unit, I really worry about makeshift repairs. However, if others can attest to this practice of replacing the power supply fan with a case cooling fan, on their own power supply, then I'll try it on my own. But if nobody else has done it previously, then I don't want to try it.

If I do attempt it, what size of cooling fan would I need to purchase? It looks pretty simple to replace the original fan with a nice upgraded ball bearing fan.

Lastly; I have been searching E-Bay for XT power supplies for several months. I just can't seem to have any kind of luck in locating one to use as a replacement for the power supply in my XT with a decent price. I don't call $50.00 to $95.00 decent. When I needed one for a friend of mine a while back, there were plenty to choose from and I bought one for only $25.00. Now, it's become a rarity.

So does anyone here have a power supply I can buy at a reasonable price, maybe two so I can fix Ed's XT at the same time?

Again, as always; Thanks in advance everybody.

Stone
February 12th, 2014, 09:13 AM
Just replace the fan in that one. I've replaced lots of fans in lots of power supplies and they've only needed to be replaced that one time. The repair has always lasted.

bettablue
February 12th, 2014, 09:25 AM
Just replace the fan in that one. I've replaced lots of fans in lots of power supplies and they've only needed to be replaced that one time. The repair has always lasted.

I appreciate that. So you think swapping out the bad fan with a case cooling fan will work?

Thanks stone.

SpidersWeb
February 12th, 2014, 10:30 AM
A 12V DC fan is a 12V DC fan. Unless it's some lo-flow super quiet model it should do the job fine.

Just make sure it's the same diameter (so the screw holes line up easily), you install it so it blows air downwards, and that it provides good airflow (most do). If it ends up providing too much airflow, and you need to quieten down your new 747, a trick is to disconnect the fan's GND line and solder it up to +5 - provides 7V to the fan instead of 12V, was a cheap way to shuttup overkill fans before motherboards started getting decent fan controllers.

Connector may or may not be the same - just solder it up to the old plug.


As for the 'burn mark' on the case. That's quite common, most of my machines have it. I can't be sure what it is exactly, but my thoughts was that it's actually residue from when the old mains caps popped (I don't think I have any IBM's with the original paper caps still) - since it's in the opposite direction of airflow (e.g. it likely happened when the fan wasn't spinning).

Al Kossow
February 12th, 2014, 11:06 AM
A 12V DC fan is a 12V DC fan.

No, actually, you need to be concerned that they aren't sleeve bearing fans and that they have real ball bearings in them.
Sleeve bearing fans are notorious for getting gummed up and seizing.

SpidersWeb
February 12th, 2014, 12:11 PM
Yes, should've mentioned that, they'll run quieter and more importantly longer in that orientation than a sleeve bearing fan.
Also try an avoid using "super cheap awesome fan max airflow 4000 only 5 dollars" fans. I've thrown out sealed ball bearing units after 6 months of use just because of cheap manufacturing (they got noisy way too quick).

fatwizard
February 12th, 2014, 04:38 PM
I dug out the fan from my 5160's original power supply (a dead power supply, I might add). When I retro-fitted a more modern power supply into the original case, I used the fan from the replacement supply. This one is the original, and if yours is like this one, you can peel back the label to access the bearings.

I put the fan label side down on a heating register (a few moments under a hair dryer on low would accomplish the same thing) to soften the adhesive. Then use an Exacto knife or razor blade to get under the edge of the label, lift it until you can get ahold of it, then gently peel it back.

A couple of drops of light oil right in the center, then just carefully reapply the label. Mine needed no addition adhesive to stick back in place. If you are careful, you won't even be able to tell it has been peeled off.

I leave the fan lying face down for a spell to let the oil migrate down into the bearings. I wish I had left the original in the unit really, but now it's handy for this little demo.

1723917240

Malc
February 12th, 2014, 11:18 PM
Exactly, Pay a bit more and get a decent ball bearing Fan and it will last for years, I refurbed the PSU on my 5160 when it popped an X2 cap, A complete recap and new fan and it's as good as new and much quieter, That was around 4 - 5 years ago and never a problem since.


Also try an avoid using "super cheap awesome fan max airflow 4000 only 5 dollars" fans. I've thrown out sealed ball bearing units after 6 months of use just because of cheap manufacturing (they got noisy way too quick).

bettablue
February 13th, 2014, 01:07 PM
If I sent my wife for the part, SHE would go for the cheapest one she could, but I'm the one who's going to buy the fan.

What I need to know (preferably before I open the power supply) is what size fan to get. I will be getting a real ball bearing fan, so that isn't even a part of the question. I HATE sleeve bearings. I've had too many of those go out on me in computers that came with them as part of their cooling. I even lost a computer because 2 of 3 cooling fans had seized and the processor over heated to the point where it blew out the thermal controller next to the processor. No, I've learned my lesson.

Another question: About running the fan off the 5 vold side of the power supply... Would that really give the fan enough power to keep the power supply cool enough?


Yes, should've mentioned that, they'll run quieter and more importantly longer in that orientation than a sleeve bearing fan.
Also try an avoid using "super cheap awesome fan max airflow 4000 only 5 dollars" fans. I've thrown out sealed ball bearing units after 6 months of use just because of cheap manufacturing (they got noisy way too quick).

SpidersWeb
February 13th, 2014, 03:17 PM
It's 7 volts as far as the fan is concerned (difference between +5 and +12 is 7) but yes that provides enough for most fans to spin - but you only try that if the fan is doing crazy air at 12V. The more airflow the better - it's just an option if the new fan ends up pushing more air than it needs to and it gets annoying on the ears. So don't worry about that for now.

To find the fan size you need, look at the top of the PSU and measure between the screws (up and down, not diagonally) - then translate it with this page: http://www.quietpc.com/faq/27
Thickness I'd guess 25mm or maybe 32? Not sure about rpm off the top of my head - hopefully someone can recommend those details.

I'm a bit low on specifics, often I just run around the garage until I find an old P3 or P4 case or dead PSU with a fan that looks like it fits, check it spins quietly and blows reasonable air, and go with it. But if you're shopping for the perfect fan you'll probably want to be more picky.

fatwizard
February 13th, 2014, 07:09 PM
The one in the pictures is an 80mm. I found this handy little chart.

Screw hole spacings and fan sizes
32mm between screw holes 40mm fan size
40mm between screw holes 50mm fan size
50mm between screw holes 60mm fan size
60mm between screw holes 70mm fan size
72mm between screw holes 80mm fan size
83mm between screw holes 92mm fan size
105mm between screw holes 120mm fan size

bettablue
February 14th, 2014, 08:25 AM
Excellent my friend! That is exactly what I need. Now, I can buy a case cooling fan and not have to open my 5150 until I'm ready to install it. From what I understand, even at 7 volts, case cooling fans move a lot more air than the original power supply fans do at full speed, so I'm feeling a bit better about doing this mod.

Thanks Fatwizard.


The one in the pictures is an 80mm. I found this handy little chart.

Screw hole spacings and fan sizes
32mm between screw holes 40mm fan size
40mm between screw holes 50mm fan size
50mm between screw holes 60mm fan size
60mm between screw holes 70mm fan size
72mm between screw holes 80mm fan size
83mm between screw holes 92mm fan size
105mm between screw holes 120mm fan size

bettablue
February 16th, 2014, 12:36 PM
I was given a power supply today, but I have no idea what it came from. It is much too large to fit in an XT or 5161 case. The voltages are right, as is the power switch assembly, but thered is no pass through. I'm attaching the few photos I have in order to see if anyone can tell me what this thing is. As you can see in the photos, this PSU is quite large in comparison with an XT power supply.

Anyone know what this is?

Malc
February 16th, 2014, 12:54 PM
Not checked part numbers but it Looks like a PSU for an IBM AT 5170

Stone
February 16th, 2014, 01:08 PM
I was given a power supply today, but I have no idea what it came from. It is much too large to fit in an XT or 5161 case. The voltages are right, as is the power switch assembly, but thered is no pass through. I'm attaching the few photos I have in order to see if anyone can tell me what this thing is. As you can see in the photos, this PSU is quite large in comparison with an XT power supply.

Anyone know what this is?I see a passthrouh. :-) It's an AT PSU, like the original 5170 had.


Not checked part numbers but it Looks like a PSU for an IBM AT 5170The IBM 5170 PSU I have has part # 6480014 on it.

bettablue
February 16th, 2014, 01:16 PM
I see a passthrouh. :-) It's an AT PSU, like the original 5170 had.

The IBM 5170 PSU I have has part # 6480014 on it.

Yeah, I saw the pass through after I posted the reply.

So, my question is pretty simple then. Is the fan assembly compatible with mt 5160 PSU? or is there anyone out there who wants/needs a 5170 power supply, I can trade for a 5160 PSU?

Stone
February 16th, 2014, 01:28 PM
Not checked part numbers but it Looks like a PSU for an IBM AT 5170You can't check the part number. The pic he posted (with the part number on it) is of his XT PSU, NOT the AT PSU he just got. Dontcha' just love it when people go out of their way to confuse us? :-)

Malc
February 16th, 2014, 01:58 PM
You can't check the part number...

Ahh i see, Yes just looked again at the pics :-)

bettablue
February 16th, 2014, 04:07 PM
The smaller power supply is my bad 5160 power supply. The larger one is the one I am questioning. From the looks of it, the fans are NOT compatible with each other. However, since I have no need for this PSU, I'll either post it for sale on E-Bay, or here in the Vintage Computers/parts for sale forums. The only thing I'm not sure about is what to ask for it. Got any ideas?

Plus I'm thinking about starting a new thread just for the power supply issues.

Moderators, can you move the portion of this thread to Vintage Computer Hardware please.






You can't check the part number. The pic he posted (with the part number on it) is of his XT PSU, NOT the AT PSU he just got. Dontcha' just love it when people go out of their way to confuse us? :-)

SpidersWeb
February 16th, 2014, 05:56 PM
Those AT power supplies are odd. Most of the time you don't need one, but when you do need one it's impossible to find one.

Stone
February 16th, 2014, 06:29 PM
That particular model, Astec AA14320, is quite readily available from the manufacturer or supplier.

bettablue
February 16th, 2014, 08:09 PM
I started another thread to keep things on topic. So take a look at Vintage Computer Items For Sale or Trade. The thread title is Question IBM 5170 AT Power Supply for Sale or Trade. I'm asking $25.00 or trade for an XT power supply. I actually need the XT power supply for Ed's 5160 XT computer, so I thought I would try to help him. Hopefully, someone will need a power supply for a 5170 AT computer. Then too, if someone takes it for my asking price of only $25.00 plus shipping, then I'll use the money to buy replacement parts to rebuild Ed's 5160 XT power supply, or maybe even make an offer to buy a 5160 PSU for Ed, and a fan for me. It would only be an offer at that point, and up to you if you want/need more stone. But, it's a beginning.

bettablue
February 18th, 2014, 09:27 AM
Sorry to bring this thread up again, but I have a question to ask pearce_jj. How much are you asking for the assembled and tested XTIDE boards? My soldering skills are pretty good, but since I've become the one armed man, (LOL) I have limited function in my right arm. Buying a pre-assembled board is pretty much a given to my as assembling will be quite difficult one handed.

I would love to have one built directly to a rear expansion slot, so that swapping CF cards will be as simple as going to the back of the computer, or in my case, the 5161 expansion unit.
Also, have there been any issues from any others using an XT-IDE board in an IBM 5161 expansion unit, or because of the nature of the 5161's extender and receiver cards make that a moot point?



A blatant plug for my site... but I'm expecting more PCB stock in the next couple of weeks - Lo-tech.co.uk Shop (http://www.lo-tech.co.uk/shop/)

I'm also intending to offer a small number of boards assembled and tested. And maybe even a couple of 500KB/s XT-CFv3 boards... I found two CPLDs. Those will be the last of them though, since the 5V CPLDs are all long gone now.

Stone
February 18th, 2014, 09:36 AM
Also, have there been any issues from any others using an XT-IDE board in an IBM 5161 expansion unit, or because of the nature of the 5161's extender and receiver cards make that a moot point?Keep in mind that because the XTIDE doesn't use a FH HD (or even a HH HD) it probably doesn't have any need to be in the 5161 and especially not if you're going to be using some sort of flash drive with it. Speaking of Flash Drives, why would you want to swap a Flash Drive in an XT setup? It's already overkill -- one is way more than enough space -- forever. :-)

bettablue
February 18th, 2014, 10:18 AM
Keep in mind that because the XTIDE doesn't use a FH HD (or even a HH HD) it probably doesn't have any need to be in the 5161 and especially not if you're going to be using some sort of flash drive with it. Speaking of Flash Drives, why would you want to swap a Flash Drive in an XT setup? It's already overkill -- one is way more than enough space -- forever. :-)

Probably... But what if I want to add some programming? I would think that adding it via card reader would be quicker. As far as the expansion unit goes, there are a few items that I simply won't be able to install into my 5150 machine as there just aren't any open expansion ports available.

I'm not trying to be facetious or difficult. I'm sorry if it comes off like that. But a large part of me really wants to keep the expansion unit. And, since the current system sees the hard discs just as though they were installed directly inside the 5150, I thought it would be just as simple to keep the expansion unit as part of the system. It is already the biggest part as it sits right now. If, I'm wrong, which is sometimes the case, please let me know. Maybe I just need to see the advantages, or disadvantages to make the correct decision. At the same time though, please don't assume that I am a complete dolt. I just want to have all of the information available to me before I make that sort of decision.

As always stone; I find your replies directly to the point, and have never been led one way or the other. That's one thing I like about working with you. I always know what to expect.

Stone
February 18th, 2014, 10:37 AM
Probably... But what if I want to add some programming? I would think that adding it via card reader would be quicker.Isn't that why you have a tweener? Doesn't your tweener have serial/parallel ports? Don't you use LapLink or something similar? That's a very functional and efficient method to add anything to Alice and her siblings.
As always stone; I find your replies directly to the point, and have never been led one way or the other. That's one thing I like about working with you. I always know what to expect.I'm making a note right now to be sure to suprise you sometime soon. If there's one think I strive to avoid it's being 100 predictable. :-)

bettablue
February 18th, 2014, 11:32 AM
:) Yes, on all counts... Still though, I have my own thoughts on what will and won't work the best for me. And, while you are correct about using my tweener, it is mainly used to write programs, or move data via floppy disc. At least that's the primary reason I rebuilt my Pentium 75 Packard Bell. I can easily bring data directly to Alice via the rear mounted CF card adapter on Alice too. Then, I have two types of floppy, a 360 KB 5.25" DDSD drive, and a 1.44 MB 3.5" floppy disc drive. Since Alice has both types too, I have several options to bring data from my tweener over to Alice. Plus, my tweener is also my primary vintage gaming computer. If a particular game, such as Ripper, or Silent Steel, have to run from CD-ROM, this machine is fantastic for these games, especially after adding as much RAM as possible; 16 MB, and video RAM, up to 4 MB using the built-in multi card.

As I mentioned, I have several methods of bringing data to Alice, and depending on which method I choose at the time, well, I want them all to be as simple as possible.

Oh, yeah... You're not 100% predictable. I would say more like 99.8% :winkingdevil:


Isn't that why you have a tweener? Doesn't your tweener have serial/parallel ports? Don't you use LapLink or something similar? That's a very functional and efficient method to add anything to Alice and her siblings.I'm making a note right now to be sure to suprise you sometime soon. If there's one think I strive to avoid it's being 100 predictable. :-)