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Chris2005
August 23rd, 2006, 01:52 PM
who's into games? I know nothing about games. Puter games that is. I think I have some Battletech thing (older), or actually I think it's called MechWarriors, a few others I got when they started putting them in jewel case and selling them for five bucks.
So who can recommend a good game? I lean toward sci-fi stuph (but not like friggin Doom or anything that morbid), or this title that caught my eye Civilization (maybe CIII?). I know many would be laughing but I just haven't gotten into games in the last decade or so. I used to love Starflight, and Ancient Art of War/War at Sea. Anyone remember 2400 AD or whatever it was called? It was lousy, but I wouldn't mind seeing that title again.
I like fun things, blow up a few space ships here and there, but something that requires strategy.
A few years ago there was something called Homeworld. A friend told me it was ok, but buggy. That City of Heros thing looked alright, but that's like an online thing. Do you have to have broadband?

dreddnott
August 23rd, 2006, 02:58 PM
I'm a huge fan of PC games. I have a large collection of boxes from the Golden Age of PC Gaming.

I took some pictures but the battery in my camera died before saving them. I'll try again tonight.

Homeworld was a fantastic milestone in RTS gameplay and graphics.

bbcmicro
August 23rd, 2006, 03:19 PM
I was never really into video/computer games. In 1999 my parents finally sucummbed and purchased a PSone as a sort of joint christmas present for me and my two brothers, and again 3 years ago for a PS2. They never really appealed to me, and the only game I really enjoyed and playd obsessively was Metal Gear Solid.

PC wise my favourite was Oblivion. Alas, the only computer anywhere near the specs required for that game went bye-bye in June. Fortunately I had spent over 60 hours on it and was slowly degenerating into a recluse, so perhaps it was for the best. Mind you, it shall return come Christmas time, when I get my parents to get that PC repaired as a Christmas Prezzie!
Also, the first command and conquer was good. And Magic Carpet 2, both over 10 years old now. I did play command and conquer red alert 2, but that was just plain silly. Some evil russian communist dictator with a wierd tatoo between his eyes, a shaven head, some wierd flashy headpiece thing that served no purpose, and a telephone that could control people. Near impossible to get involved in a game that already alienates its story to all players over 6

I don't seem to enjoy classics such as Pac Man, Invaders, Galaga and the like as much as others folks, especially older people. Perhaps that is because I have been brought up on a wimpy three dimensions as opposed to the time when men were men and we had 2 dimensions ever morning for breakfast, and LIKED IT! Nostalgia is the biggest factor here, methinks, and as I have none of that particular era, I can't sail through a game I played 20+ years ago dispite its cultural connotations, because I see it in comparison to todays standards.


I played Doom on a GBA once, I cant understand how people can play on that, its gross! Quake wasn't much fun either, with these wierd crab thing that laid eggs on your face, or something like that. Its all the same :)

Bill_Loguidice
August 24th, 2006, 07:40 AM
You could say I'm into games, close to 30 years now. While I collect everything videogames and computers, I find that beyond hacking, hobby programming and specialized peripherals and add-ons, classic computers most interest me for gaming. While it's nice to have a classic word processor or spreadsheet, it's merely good to have as part of the collection, not for actual usage (modern computers do that much better). That's where the games come in. They're timeless.

I've found over the past several years, since about 1999/2000, in regards to modern stuff, I've been much more into consoles than PC gaming. I buy the majority of my new games for consoles and handhelds and just pick and choose my PC games carefully, like Civilization IV and Half-Life 2. Prior to that time period I used to make a point of keeping my PC rig updated every six months. Now I run a very good computer into the ground for 3 - 4 years before getting a new one. Priorities change and frankly the types of games I like to play on a PC with a monitor tend not to require the latest horsepower. All the other game types are just fine on console.

As for your online gaming question, there is little you can play properly with dial-up, so if you don't have broadband, I would stick to casual Web games. Same things for console gaming.

chuckcmagee
August 24th, 2006, 09:12 AM
Unfortunately, the games I like require about 3 hours a day for 20 days to finish. Now that I'm the "primary care-giver" for my mother, I just don't have that kind of time to spend on games anymore. Whoknows when I'll even unwrap "Myst III". It's still sitting there, not even opened yet after a few months of buying it.

Erik
August 24th, 2006, 10:30 AM
I used to play EverQuest. 3 hours a day was probably the shortest I ever spent during the years I was hooked into that world. Some days went over 20.

I stopped playing when my son was born and haven't looked back. Now I can't imagine where I ever found the time.

fxg
August 24th, 2006, 10:43 AM
You gave up gaming when your son was born?? Damn it, my gaming time went away when I got my current job! And I'm far from getting married or having a child... Well, a lot further than I was a week ago...

Erik
August 24th, 2006, 10:46 AM
You gave up gaming when your son was born?? Damn it, my gaming time went away when I got my current job! And I'm far from getting married or having a child... Well, a lot further than I was a week ago...

I was able to continue playing while employed. I spent days at work, evenings online and had limited sleep.

Interesting times.

Chris2005
August 24th, 2006, 02:03 PM
someone once told me that xbox games could run on a peecee. Is this so? Also, the Xbox is more or less a pc clone. Is there a motherboard that corresponds to it's design, as in uses all the same chips? I hate to buy anything I can't fix, and I'm in the market for one (preferably broke LOL).

bbcmicro
August 24th, 2006, 02:15 PM
I dunno about Xbox, but I have played and completed several playstation one games using an original disk and an emulator

atari2600a
August 24th, 2006, 03:37 PM
I LOVE point & click adventure games. Here's a list of the best ones I've played:

-Sam & Max
-Beneath a Steel Sky
-The Longest Journey
-Syberia
-Syberia II
-The Black Mirror

DimensionDude
August 24th, 2006, 06:38 PM
I LOVE point & click adventure games.


I, too, liked Sam and Max. My favorites, however, include the somewhat earlier "type in the text" games from Sierra, especially the King's Quest and Leisure Suit Larry games.

Like the first person shooters, too. Castle Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, etc.

Favorite space battle type game is Wing Commander: Privateer. The sound of weapon fire hitting the ship's armor can still raise goosebumps. :)

Kent

Bill_Loguidice
August 25th, 2006, 06:43 AM
someone once told me that xbox games could run on a peecee. Is this so? Also, the Xbox is more or less a pc clone. Is there a motherboard that corresponds to it's design, as in uses all the same chips? I hate to buy anything I can't fix, and I'm in the market for one (preferably broke LOL).

That's incorrect. While the Xbox uses perhaps a higher ratio of PC-like parts than either the PS2 or GameCube, it's no more compatible with any possible PC configuration you could come up with. It will take several more generations of PC hardware before a reliable software emulator will be possible.

On the bright side, perfectly functional refurb and used Xbox systems are available for under $100. I personally don't condone modding of a console for any purposes, but like all consoles, the Xbox is readily hackable with the right technical skills. They can also be user serviced using those same skills, for instance replacing a defective optical drive. There's really nothing else to worry about breaking, save for the hard drive, though I have yet to hear any reports of that.

Bill_Loguidice
August 25th, 2006, 06:47 AM
I, too, liked Sam and Max. My favorites, however, include the somewhat earlier "type in the text" games from Sierra, especially the King's Quest and Leisure Suit Larry games.

Like the first person shooters, too. Castle Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, etc.

Favorite space battle type game is Wing Commander: Privateer. The sound of weapon fire hitting the ship's armor can still raise goosebumps. :)

Kent

Not to get technical, but "Castle Wolfenstein" was the Apple II, Atari 8-bit and C-64 computer game with an entirely different perspective from the future iD game. "Wolfenstein 3D" was the FPS inspired by the two games (the other being "Beyond Castle Wolfenstein", both by the late Silas Warner and Muse Software, both classics that featured speech).

By the way, the basic plot of "Castle Wolfenstein" was "escape the castle prison", while "Beyond Castle Wolfenstein" was the more ambitious "sneak back in and plant a bomb at Hitler's meeting table, then get out again", the latter no doubt inspired by the real (but obviously failed) assassination plot).

carlsson
August 25th, 2006, 08:50 AM
At the launch of the Xbox (not to be confused with the current 360), it was said to consist of a custom modified 733 MHz Pentium III processor with an equally improved GeForce 3 (IIRC) class graphics set. I agree that software emulation will take long, about as long as it takes if you would want to make a software emulation of a 600-700 MHz Pentium III. Perhaps a fair deal can be emulated 1:1, I don't know how modified the CPU is.

That said, I wonder if there was not Xboxen modified to run Microsoft Windows or some other operating system, i.e. converting the video game into a computer?

80sFreak
August 25th, 2006, 09:25 AM
That said, I wonder if there was not Xboxen modified to run Microsoft Windows or some other operating system, i.e. converting the video game into a computer?

Linux is available for the Xbox here (http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/Main_Page).

Cheers,

80sFreak

bbcmicro
August 25th, 2006, 09:49 AM
I briefly toyed with the the idea of getting an official linux kit for my playstation, but reasoned that it was quite a lot of money and I would never really use it.
http://www.linuxplay.com/

dreddnott
August 25th, 2006, 10:55 AM
Save that money up for a PlayStation 3, it comes with Linux preinstalled...

Bill_Loguidice
August 25th, 2006, 11:24 AM
Save that money up for a PlayStation 3, it comes with Linux preinstalled...

It doesn't mean it will be usable like a traditional Linux though. Most likely it will be heavily restricted.

The Xbox 360 development suite from Microsoft for $99 is interesting, but it too has its purposeful limitations.

Chris2005
August 25th, 2006, 12:30 PM
"That's incorrect. While the Xbox uses perhaps a higher ratio of PC-like parts than either the PS2 or GameCube, it's no more compatible with any possible PC configuration you could come up with. It will take several more generations of PC hardware before a reliable software emulator will be possible."

So you're saying that the ic's present on it's motherboard won't be found anywhere else? I was kind of lead to believe there was at least one mobo out there to which it was real close. I read something to this effect while reading "Hacking the Xbox". If you're actually that acquainted with the system, I'm curious to know what's on it's mobo that can't be found otherwise.
And I wasn't referring to any kind of emulation. I just like to have the ability to fix something, and being that parts from it's era are likely to be found dirt cheap (that is if all of them can be found).

Bill_Loguidice
August 25th, 2006, 12:45 PM
If you're asking can you approximate the basic setup of the Xbox without being in any way compatible, then the answer is "yes, of course" (you'd have to run something like Windows or Linux on it, of course). If you're asking "can I build my own Xbox?", then the answer is "no, of course not". Besides the proprietary OS and condensed design configuration, there are subtle differences like the proprietary form of USB used for the controller ports and many, many other things that make such an endeavor impossible. Again, if your concern is your Xbox breaking, which is as likely as any other modern console, then the simple answer is is that with the right skills you can replace things like the optical and hard drives yourself, which is likely all that would ever break. Certain games may refuse to run if you modify it and you'll be banned from Xbox Live most likely depending on what gets changed, but those are different issues.

Again, when you can buy new, boxed systems for not too far over $100 and refurbs and used for less than $100, what's the point?

Chris2005
August 25th, 2006, 12:55 PM
oi are the parts on the mobo the same as on any pc boards out there. You can plug a standard usb mouse and keyboard (at least) into it, presumably any usb device, and run them under linux, so I'm not concerned with the subtle differences. Yes there's a minor hack to it.
I'm not looking to approximate anything, just want a line on parts. If I can't fix it (i.e. if the stuph it's made of is too proprietary) I lose interest.
The point is I like to fix things, and have the ability to. As long as I can get the parts ;).

carlsson
August 25th, 2006, 01:46 PM
It doesn't mean it will be usable like a traditional Linux though. Most likely it will be heavily restricted.
*must not respond with something about Linux already being restricted* ;-)

80sFreak
August 25th, 2006, 03:55 PM
oi are the parts on the mobo the same as on any pc boards out there.

I believe I read something about the Xbox was that it is a "legacy" free PC.. So it seems it is not backward-ish compatible with the 8088 like PCs of today.

Cheers,

80sFreak

80sFreak
August 25th, 2006, 03:56 PM
*must not respond with something about Linux already being restricted* ;-)

But would you say it is *more* restricted then Windows? ;)

Cheers,

80sFreak

atari2600a
August 25th, 2006, 04:10 PM
Hey, I got a friend who runs an HTTP, FTP, CS:S, & Ventrilo (VoiP) on his modded, Linux-running xBox, SIMUTANIOUSLY. Never underestimate the power of underground hacking communities! :p

(I've also seen a DS w/ GPS :p)

Terry Yager
August 25th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Of course, there's always the nagging reality of that 'custom' chip (ASIC, etc) which does most of the work...

--T

Bill_Loguidice
August 27th, 2006, 05:42 AM
No one is denying that the Xbox can't be hacked - every console can and has. The point is, you can't build your own. End of story. Not a big deal really. If you want to "roll your own", you don't want a console, unless it's one of those "build your own" like the XGameStation.

Chris2005
August 30th, 2006, 12:32 PM
I'm of the slight persuasion that we have a communication problem. No one suggested building an Xbox. I don't recall seeing that proposition anywhere. And I can't imagine why someone would want to try. Though I did ask:

a) can all of most of the chips be substituted with ic's found on clone motherboard's common to it's era

b) can Xbox games be run on a PC. Someone kind of sort of indicated this a while back in probably yahoo chat or something.

It's really nice when you can find spare parts for things. Are we not in a vintage forum? What will someone do if their Amiga 1000 or IBM PEECEE blows up? Are they going to simply look to replace it? It would make more sense to try to fix it, or find someone who could. The Xbox ain't yet vintage, but just the same, instead of chucking it, why not try and fix it. If you've never desoldered an ic, or simply unplugged one and changed it, frankly you're missing out. But it's not as hard as you think.

carlsson
August 30th, 2006, 02:51 PM
a) No, because an Xbox contains custom chips and is not a IBM PC compatible.
b) Maybe via emulation, and perhaps a bit of the emulation can be done by letting through code to the host CPU instead of emulating the CPU.

Sure, to some degree you can repair a broken Apple II, Amiga 1000 or Xbox. Some simpler gates (74LSxx), resistors, capacitors etc are given. Some integrated chips still exist, or pin-compatible replacements. Some can be emulated with a GAL chip, while others, in particular more analogue operating custom chips, may be impossible to obtain other than from another broken machine of the same type.

Chris2005
September 5th, 2006, 12:57 PM
I still say most of the chips are somewhat common. I remember it being compared to a ROTM mobo of it's day. I'm not saying everything can be found out there...just most of it. Nevermind anyway. Icaramba.

Bill_Loguidice
September 5th, 2006, 01:07 PM
I still say most of the chips are somewhat common. I remember it being compared to a ROTM mobo of it's day. I'm not saying everything can be found out there...just most of it. Nevermind anyway. Icaramba.

If you can find evidence of that, I'm sure we'd love to hear it. Even if as much as an extremely optimistic 60% of it were user replaceable parts, I don't see what good it would do you anyway. You can replace the optical and hard drives if need be, and the power supply is external, so I really don't see what else you'd want to swap out in case of failure. Frankly, if anything else failed, it would be easier just to get a new system than try to track down custom chips. In that regard, it's just like every other console ever, with fairly select replaceable parts. It also seems moot on a sub-$100 (refurb or used) or just over $100 product (new). You can buy a spare machine, even non-working (even cheaper), just for parts to put into the good machine. Also, it's not like this is a niche product. You're talking about something that has sold in the tens of millions and counting, ensuring they will be in the supply chain (eBay, flea markets, whatever) for at least the next 30 years or so.

Chris2005
September 7th, 2006, 12:15 PM
I guess you're of the persuasion it's bad to fix something. It started out as a question, and I was obviously looking for some response. But why someone again and again has to tell me it's such a bad idea I'm at a loss to explain. I don't actually own a copy of Hacking the Xbox, and my guess is that's where I obtained most of the info about it.
It's often a good idea to dig down deep into something, and many times this happens when you have to fix it. If you're not so disposed that's your affair. But personally I'm not timid about cracking open anything. Often that leads to alot more questions then you had to begin with, but those are often the ones that need to be answered.

Bill_Loguidice
September 7th, 2006, 12:31 PM
No one is arguing, no one is dissuading, all I was trying to say, as were others, is that you really can't fix consoles to the same degree you can PC's, and since even the Xbox is full of custom components, the best bet is to get a spare if you so badly want to fix something that you seem to fervently believe will break. I don't see what you're having an issue with. We talked about the parts that could break and are easy to replace, we talked about some of the custom components, we talked about some of the ways around trying to find parts you can't find (because they're only in Xbox's), etc. Am I missing something that you're upset about? We all seem to have covered everything possible regarding this. Yes, it's wonderful to fix stuff, but as has been made abundantly clear throughout this discussion, there are limits in the console world unless you are working off of a spare identical unit!

Chris2005
September 7th, 2006, 12:52 PM
who said I was even upset? And alot of my thinking (when it comes to vintage computers anyway) is how to work around parts that aren't commonly available. And the Xbox is a shining example of how people found workarounds. Granted not generally concerning the hardware, but even that was done by the dude at MIT.
You simply had to state at least twice you didn't see why someone would bother. Well...I might feel like bothering. You also made assumptions about what I was trying to do, and you were way off. All this makes for a convoluted thread. A little perturbing, but I wouldn't call it upsetting.
As a general rule I do get a little peeved when someone presumes to give their opinions rather then answer the questions. If you don't have any valuable information, it's best not to answer. I have my own opinions, I don't need anyone else's. Unless of course I simply asked for one...

Bill_Loguidice
September 7th, 2006, 12:58 PM
If you're not interested in a typical forum discussion, then why do you bother even posting? That's what this is for. You don't have to like the answers or bother to respond back. If someone misinterpreted what you were asking, perhaps you didn't ask it as clearly as you could have. Could that possibly be it too?

Chris2005
September 7th, 2006, 01:13 PM
"If you're not interested in a typical forum discussion, then why do you bother even posting?"

Gracious Me I haven't got a ****ing clue.

"That's what this is for. You don't have to like the answers or bother to respond back."

No, I shouldn't bother to respond when someone repeats their own opinion twice. Why do you bother posting Bill? Just so you can get my blood pressure up? I really have wonder about your motives too. And that's not what this is for, though so often it is the case with online chats. It's for exchanging information (generally), not hammering someone with your opinions.

"If someone misinterpreted what you were asking, perhaps you didn't ask it as clearly as you could have. Could that possibly be it too?"

Well I'm going to venture a guess that you were the only one who surmised that I wanted to build an Xbox from scratch. Oi someone lock this friggin thread already!

mbbrutman
September 7th, 2006, 01:15 PM
Hi guys. Timeout

I'm not locking the thread to prevent you from flaming each other. Not flaming other people is your job. But if it ever came to a cage match, I'm betting on Bill.


Back on topic ..

My consoles are entirely user servicable, and they include schematics. Parts are getting harder to find though. And they are kind of big .. 2 to 300lbs per, and standing 6 feet tall. And they only play one game a piece ..

atari2600a
September 7th, 2006, 03:11 PM
Showoff... (W/ the arcade machines & all...) :p

mbbrutman
September 7th, 2006, 03:38 PM
For the kind of money I've got invested I should be able to show off once in a while. :-)

It's a joy working on the old iron. They were designed to be serviced, so they come with schematics and full documentation. The components are generally off-the-shelf TTL parts.

For example, the Williams Defender is based on the 6502 CPU, which was used in the KIM-1, Apple ][, C64, etc. The memory chips are old crusty 4116s. Code is stored on PROMs, and a simple CMOS memory stores the configuration and high score list. Defender is actually a two CPU machine - one CPU does nothing but sound, and the other does everything else. Designing a multi-processor for a game is quite extraordinary.

Joust is even more complex .. Four 6502s.

The Atari games are wonderful too, but for different reasons. Asteroids and BattleZones are conventional computers, but their vector display is representative of a technology that is long since gone. The displays shared a lot in common with FAA RADAR scopes, and even those have been upgraded to newer technology over the years. You can't emulate or replace a vector display with something else ..

If you look at them as computers, they are fascinating.

atari2600a
September 7th, 2006, 04:49 PM
Hey, you can never emulate that vector glow, but at least MAME comes extremely close to simulating vector graphics on a digital display! :p

mbbrutman
September 7th, 2006, 05:05 PM
No, it doesn't. Have you ever seen a vector display for real, or just emulated versions of them? There is quite a difference - a vector display has no pixels, just lines.

atari2600a
September 7th, 2006, 05:23 PM
Yes, I've seen actual vector displays before. Trust me, MAME has some pretty decent vector simulation. (It doesn't deserve the rank of "emulation") Sometimes, you just have to tweak the vector settings in the mame.ini file a little

..yet It still doesn't feel right whilst playing it via MAME...

EDIT: Come to think of it, the corners of vector graphics in MAME never really looked right (yet... :p)

Vlad
September 7th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Both of you knock it off. This entire little exchange is uncalled for and just distracts from the topic at hand. Give it a rest and let it go, there is no need for this to turn into some second grade flame fest.

-VK

carlsson
September 7th, 2006, 07:30 PM
I saw my first Vectrex this spring, and I was almost a bit disappointed. I had thought it would have even more crisp vectors and not so pronounced end points.

TroyW
September 7th, 2006, 08:17 PM
Also, it's not like this is a niche product. You're talking about something that has sold in the tens of millions and counting, ensuring they will be in the supply chain (eBay, flea markets, whatever) for at least the next 30 years or so.

Yes and no, in some ways I'd agree and other ways I wouldn't. I plan on getting myself a Sony PS2 when the PS3 comes out, as well as a reasonable collection of games and spare controllers, memory cards, etc. Why? Because after the system is superceeded, it will cease to be a mainstream product, and availability will slowly dry up, just like it has for other systems that people have moved on from. I learnt that lesson years ago when it came to consoles, ending up with a console that works perfectly asides from some fault such as a controller that was broken beyond repair and being unable to find a replacement.

In fact, that is a problem that affects older computers as well as consoles - my beloved Amiga 4000 is practically useless at the moment because the hard disk, floppy drive and mouse are all dead and beyond repair (at least, beyond any repairs I could do) and I have no idea where the keyboard that goes with it ended up, so before I can use it again, I have to replace the keyboard, mouse, floppy drive (and good luck finding one of the fairly rare 1.76Mb half speed 3.5" drives that were used in the A4000) and hard disk, then hope that the floppy disks I still have that I hadn't had a chance to backup to a different medium still work. Oh and then I'll want to replace the battery that started to leak onto the motherboard, so I removed it, but alas it took part of the battery mounting with it, so that needs to be repaired too if I want it to remember the date and time.

So if you're really worried, buy several of whatever machine you particularly like, as well as any things that plug into it like controllers, so you've got your own personal stash, saving you from being stuck like I am with my Amiga 4000.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I've been playing computer games for most of my life, from "Radar Rat Race" on the Vic 20 and "Star Raiders" and "Oils Well" on the Atari 400 to name just a few, right through to Gran Turismo 4 on the PS2. My favourites aren't usually the "itchy trigger finger" games, I particularly like games that make me laugh or think, and so the space quest series, as well as the monkey island series are among my favourites, but being a car enthusiast, I'm also a big fan of car racing game simulations such as the Gran Turismo series & live for speed, not really such a big fan of the more "arcade orientated" titles such as the need for speed series.

Bill_Loguidice
September 8th, 2006, 05:35 AM
I saw my first Vectrex this spring, and I was almost a bit disappointed. I had thought it would have even more crisp vectors and not so pronounced end points.

I have two Vectrex units. One does not converge as well as the other, so it could have been the particular unit you were looking at. In other words, one I have connects the lines perfectly, the other does not do so nearly as well. The latter also buzzes louder. They can be finnicky machines for obvious reasons, but it truly is the most unique console from a display standpoint ever made and likely will be made for quite some time (and yes, I include the Virtual Boy in there). The homebrew scene is also tremendous, second only to the Atari 2600 one.

mbbrutman
September 8th, 2006, 05:38 AM
I saw my first Vectrex this spring, and I was almost a bit disappointed. I had thought it would have even more crisp vectors and not so pronounced end points.

It's home equipment .. it wasn't affordable to make it to the standards that the arcade vector units had to meet.

I need to get my hands on an Atari Star Wars, which was a color vector unit and one of their last vector units.

The downside of any vector unit is repairs .. you just can't pop in a normal tube.

atari2600a
September 8th, 2006, 10:22 AM
Atari Star Wars is awesome! (Wasn't it the first machine to used digitized sound samples?)

Bill_Loguidice
September 8th, 2006, 10:28 AM
Atari Star Wars is awesome! (Wasn't it the first machine to used digitized sound samples?)

First to use digitzed sound from a movie...

carlsson
September 8th, 2006, 04:15 PM
Actually, the guy had two Vectrex units side by side. Dunno if they were of the exact same model/origin. It was the same guy who owns 10++ boxed systems and all kind of games including a newly bought copy of Mr. Boston.