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sev
June 23rd, 2014, 10:27 PM
I recently acquired an Amiga 3000. The guy I bought it from told me the battery damage was pretty extensive.

The pictures below are more or less how I got the box. I just cleaned the corrosion off, but the top layers of the board had already flaked away by the time I got to it. It looks like the previous owner physically forced the battery to snap off causing all this damage to the PCB. Very aggravating to see.

The other thing is the system looks like its missing chips. It had no kickstart rom, so I grabbed the roms v3.0 roms from my 4000 and threw them in, no dice.

When I turn it on, the VGA monitor comes up, black creen, the power LED comes up solid, no flashes whatsoever.

Along with the roms, I popped in a a3640 to see if it would have any life... nothing. same difference.

What else can I try? There is no SCSI drive connected, would that make a difference?

Pics of the motherboard, are there some RAM chips missing? It is bare on the bottom right where it has sockets from U850D to U857D.

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s339/tetatdo/CAM00247_zps7z68u891.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/tetatdo/media/CAM00247_zps7z68u891.jpg.html)

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s339/tetatdo/CAM00250_zpscjksk3cn.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/tetatdo/media/CAM00250_zpscjksk3cn.jpg.html)


Before cleaning: :( :( :(

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s339/tetatdo/CAM00249_zpsebfvy9sk.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/tetatdo/media/CAM00249_zpsebfvy9sk.jpg.html)


After cleaning : :( :(

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s339/tetatdo/B56819D0-F1D3-4086-9D71-8BF9D1089BB9_zpsonly0xzn.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/tetatdo/media/B56819D0-F1D3-4086-9D71-8BF9D1089BB9_zpsonly0xzn.jpg.html)



How much damage is there, is this fixable? I feel like the corrosion ate through multiple layers of the board.

HELP!!

jltursan
June 23rd, 2014, 11:05 PM
Can't see the pics?

Anyway, the corrosion can always be fixed repairing all the damaged tracks following the schematics. I've recently done the same with my A3000.

It can boot without HD but you'll need some kind of ROM for sure. To use 3.0 ROMs you'll need to configure some jumpers in the machine.

njroadfan
June 24th, 2014, 03:35 AM
Amiga 4000 ROMs won't work in a 3000. They lack the required SCSI support.

rittwage
June 24th, 2014, 04:26 AM
Unless you're extremely lucky, it's dead without professional expensive help- and maybe even still dead. Sorry to see another so injured...

SParent
June 24th, 2014, 04:38 AM
The ram at the left is chip ram, the ram at the right is fast ram. The eight empty socket at bottom right are normal. If you don't have any ZIP fast ram, you can switch 8 DIP ram chips from the sockets at the left to those at the right, giving you 1MB of chip ram and 1MB of fast ram. Since you have 8 ZIP chips at the right (giving you 1MB or 4MB of fast ram, depending of the chips installed), it's ok to have all 16 DIP ram chips to the left, giving you the maximum 2MB of chip ram.
Just in case you don't know: chip ram can be accessed by CPU and special chips (denise, agnus, etc.) and fast ram can be accessed by the cpu only. An amiga can run with chip ram only, but not on fast ram only, that's why 8 DIP chip ram are soldered on the board, you can't move them.

Edit: corrected the size of ram.

KC9UDX
June 24th, 2014, 06:11 AM
First, you need A3000-specific ROMs. You technically could use A2000 ROM, but don't do that. Get the correct ROMs, and hopefully you don't need a ROM tower, because you haven't got one. I can't read the rev number, and I don't remember any of the rev numbers, but that would allow someone to tell you if you need a ROM tower or not.

Second, pull all the socketed RAM, and boot the machine. You will get a specific screen color indicating a problem if there is one.

I would do that before I try and repair the motherboard.

geoffm3
June 24th, 2014, 06:40 AM
Back when I had an A3000, it had some battery damage similar to that. I ended up replacing the sockets for the chips for the Denise and Paula around the affected area and that was enough to get it running again.

It looks to me like you're missing the Kickstart ROMs, which you'll need at a minimum.

KC9UDX
June 24th, 2014, 07:20 AM
Apparently, Kickstart ROMs are available and affordable now.

http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=284

If you don't already have it, you'reof course going to want Amiga 3.1 floppy disk set or AmigaOS3.9 CD

Crypticalcode0
June 24th, 2014, 07:24 AM
looking at your pictures unless you know how to lift those 7474 and 7404 IC's you cannot asses the full extend of the damage.

Your missing FastMem that can be helped by carefully removing the socketed DRAM chips, and placing them in the FastMem sockets.
Or placing ZIP's into the respective ZIP sockets.

BTW when lifting Chips always check for damaged pads and please use a Socket instead of directly soldering the IC's back in I expect the Capacitor by the 7474 be be disconnected and some of the traces to be missing in the area.
When that is the case use laquered wire to fix that problem.

KC9UDX
June 24th, 2014, 08:28 AM
Your missing FastMem that can be helped by carefully removing the socketed DRAM chips, and placing them in the FastMem sockets.
Or placing ZIP's into the respective ZIP sockets.

The DIP sockets for FAST RAM are in the same RAM bank as the first row of ZIP chips, so it only makes sense to use them if you don't have any ZIP chips. It's desirable to have the full 2Mb of CHIP RAM anyway, I wouldn't remove those.

Either way, it's best to not start changing things until you know the extent of the damage.

sev
June 24th, 2014, 09:02 AM
First, you need A3000-specific ROMs. You technically could use A2000 ROM, but don't do that. Get the correct ROMs, and hopefully you don't need a ROM tower, because you haven't got one. I can't read the rev number, and I don't remember any of the rev numbers, but that would allow someone to tell you if you need a ROM tower or not.

Second, pull all the socketed RAM, and boot the machine. You will get a specific screen color indicating a problem if there is one.

I would do that before I try and repair the motherboard.


Thanks for all your info, I do have a a2000 here, I want to try to pop the ROMs in to see if it will work, obviously if it does Im willing to buy the correct roms. So just to confirm youre saying the a2000 roms would work? If i pop them in should It show me a color code if there is something wrong?

sev
June 24th, 2014, 09:20 AM
First, you need A3000-specific ROMs. You technically could use A2000 ROM, but don't do that. Get the correct ROMs, and hopefully you don't need a ROM tower, because you haven't got one. I can't read the rev number, and I don't remember any of the rev numbers, but that would allow someone to tell you if you need a ROM tower or not.

Second, pull all the socketed RAM, and boot the machine. You will get a specific screen color indicating a problem if there is one.

I would do that before I try and repair the motherboard.

what is a rom tower???

The board revision is 8.9 I believe

KC9UDX
June 24th, 2014, 09:31 AM
Thanks for all your info, I do have a a2000 here, I want to try to pop the ROMs in to see if it will work, obviously if it does Im willing to buy the correct roms. So just to confirm youre saying the a2000 roms would work? If i pop them in should It show me a color code if there is something wrong?

No, A2000 ROMs could work, but it's not a simple matter of just plugging one in. And, it may only work with release 1.3 and earlier ROMs. It may only work with early revision A3000 motherboards, and it may not work at all. It's quite possible no one ever actually did it, but, the original A3000 was designed so A2000 ROM would work with some modification or something. IIRC, that's the original reason there were 4 ROM sockets. But, also, it would make perfect sense that the A2000 ROM capability went away when the ROM tower came about or went away.


what is a rom tower???

It's a board that plugs into the ROM sockets and has sockets for ROM chips on the bottom. I have an early A3000UX that requires this, but it is my understanding that boards even earlier than mine don't require them.

There are pictures of a ROM tower here (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?25696-A3000-problem).


The board revision is 8.9 I believe

Ten years ago I could have told you everything you would want to know about that board. Unfortunately, I just don't remember that stuff anymore. My guess is that you don't need a ROM Tower. But, it's only a guess, and it would be best to confirm that with someone else who has an 8.9 board.

sev
June 24th, 2014, 09:36 AM
No, A2000 ROMs could work, but it's not a simple matter of just plugging one in. And, it may only work with release 1.3 and earlier ROMs. It may only work with early revision A3000 motherboards, and it may not work at all. It's quite possible no one ever actually did it, but, the original A3000 was designed so A2000 ROM would work with some modification or something. IIRC, that's the original reason there were 4 ROM sockets. But, also, it would make perfect sense that the A2000 ROM capability went away when the ROM tower came about or went away.



It's a board that plugs into the ROM sockets and has sockets for ROM chips on the bottom. I have an early A3000UX that requires this, but it is my understanding that boards even earlier than mine don't require them.

There are pictures of a ROM tower here (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?25696-A3000-problem).



Ten years ago I could have told you everything you would want to know about that board. Unfortunately, I just don't remember that stuff anymore. My guess is that you don't need a ROM Tower. But, it's only a guess, and it would be best to confirm that with someone else who has an 8.9 board.


thanks for all the info.

I yanked off all the ZIP chips and fired it up, no diagnostic screen came up... So sounds like if I want the roms I need to take a gamble and order actual a3000 roms? given the extent of the damage Im not sure If I want to take the gamble without SOME indication that the board still works.

KC9UDX
June 24th, 2014, 10:36 AM
Unfortunately the only way you'll get it to do anything at all is with a set of A3000 ROMs. Any A3000 Kickstart ROMs will work for diagnostic purposes.

TeamBlackFox
June 28th, 2014, 09:55 AM
Seems like there's still some residue on the board. Go to a chemistry supply store and ask for a solution of " Iodophor " which is iodine and phosophoric acid. Get a clean turkey baster or other syringe like device and use that to apply some to the board. Leave it on there for ~5-10 minutes, then clean it off. Take the motherboard then and throw it in the dishwasher with the hot water wash turned off and the heated dry and a little bit of Dawn in the detergent reservoir. Take it out once dry and put it in your water heater room and leave it there for 24 hours. Then use a hair dryer on high, ensure board is COMPLETELY dry.

I used this to resurrect an A2000 years back. After doing this, I repaired the tracks by bridging the damaged sections with wire. A real pro would repair the tracks by putting in copper and putting some sort of protectant on it, but I'm not that good at soldering.

aysel
June 29th, 2014, 11:47 AM
Hi, not sure what you used to clean the board but the key is to nutrealise the acid from the battery. I have brought a few A2000s back from the dead and find the best corrosion stopper is pure lemon juice followed by a good rinse, clean and dry.

Have to say, the acid from your battery looks to have had a pretty catestrophic effect, most I have had the battery has eaten its way through tracks and occassionaly pin solder and a little corrosion to any bare metal its come up against but yours looks to have worked its way through the whole PCB almost!? I would guess for the amount of hours you would have to pay someone to put that right it would be more economical to just source a replacement board?

Classic Commodore design of putting a little barrel of acid right next to key components lol... on the A2k its 10mm from the 68000 and I just caught my A4k in time as that was 10mm from the SIMM bank... genius :-)

KC9UDX
June 29th, 2014, 02:35 PM
Keep in mind the goo from the batteries is usually as base, not an acid.

geoffm3
June 30th, 2014, 06:32 AM
You mentioned too that you tried this with an A3640. This board has a built-in processor. Have you tried it in that config? Make sure the jumpers are set right for the internal CPU.

KC9UDX
June 30th, 2014, 07:00 AM
You mentioned too that you tried this with an A3640. This board has a built-in processor. Have you tried it in that config? Make sure the jumpers are set right for the internal CPU.

Those jumpers are very important, but it won't do anything without ROMs.

Interestingly, an A3000/25 runs about the same speed with the stock CPU as with an A3640. And, the rather large amount of heat introduced inside that small case by the '040 is very problematic.

rittwage
June 30th, 2014, 08:32 AM
Those jumpers are very important, but it won't do anything without ROMs.

Interestingly, an A3000/25 runs about the same speed with the stock CPU as with an A3640. And, the rather large amount of heat introduced inside that small case by the '040 is very problematic.

Not sure exactly what you mean here... They both run at 25MHz, but one is 68030, and the other is 68040. Quite a difference in speed. The 3640 roughly triples the speed of the A3000.

Now, the stars must be aligned just right to get the 3640 to work in an A3000. You have to have real 2.0x ROMs (not softkicked), the card has to be the right version (3.1 or maybe 3.2 with correct PALs), the jumpers have to be correct, it has to have low-profile heatsync, and there is the issue of heat you mention. However, there are very few accelerators for the 3000, so it is worth it if you can get it working. I wouldn't try until the rest of the machine is stable, though.

KC9UDX
June 30th, 2014, 08:53 AM
Have you ever done it?

The benchmarks are about the same. Or, I had two defective ones.

Mind you, I did this just after getting a CyberStormPPC with 060/50, so maybe I was biased. In any case, I had determined the A3640 was not worthwhile in an A3000, even after resolving the heat issue.

geoffm3
June 30th, 2014, 09:38 AM
ISTR the A3640 was quite a lot faster... the 040 remember had a number of improvements over the '030, not least of which was a larger cache.

rittwage
June 30th, 2014, 12:56 PM
Yes, it's about 3x faster if configured properly.

KC9UDX
June 30th, 2014, 01:30 PM
That sure doesn't seem right. Granted, my memory of things 17 years ago isn't perfect, but I wouldn't have abandoned an A3640 if it was 3x as fast as the stock machine. I wouldn't have abandoned it if it was twice as fast. It just wasn't.

The Warp Engine was significantly faster. The only thing the A3640 did was get hot.

Crypticalcode0
June 30th, 2014, 02:29 PM
A3640 has a slight problem performance wise, and that is that you don't get more fastMem.

FastMem expansion is something the A3000 Simply needs.
one of the general Mods used by the A4000 can be used, if you think about what it implies.

sev
June 30th, 2014, 09:44 PM
hey guys, unrelated to this a3000, any idea where I can find a proper replacement socket for the motorola 68k? the 64 pin version.

I cant find them anywhere, the ones i find are too small..

mnbvcxz
July 1st, 2014, 01:50 AM
You can buy strips of SIL pins, cut off 2 strips of 32 pins and solder them in place of the socket.

Crypticalcode0
July 1st, 2014, 07:58 AM
that is exactly what i did when replacing my socket in my A500+

KC9UDX
July 1st, 2014, 08:43 AM
SoftwareHut (I think it was) used to sell those sockets, as extensions for the purpose of raising up the Derringer accelerators above the motherboard.

I wouldn't be surprised if some Amiga dealer(s) still have stock.

This (http://softhut.us/)looks very weird, but it may pay to ask.

Maverick1978
July 1st, 2014, 02:12 PM
64-pin sockets are hard to find? - I got a grab-bag of sockets from Jameco (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=64-pin%20socket&search_type=jamecoall) about a year or so ago; it had 4 64-pin sockets in there. I've used one to replace a socket in an Amiga 2000 board already.

Although come to think of it, that A2000 is still fritzing, so take this post fwiw.

sev
July 2nd, 2014, 03:01 PM
64-pin sockets are hard to find? - I got a grab-bag of sockets from Jameco (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=64-pin%20socket&search_type=jamecoall) about a year or so ago; it had 4 64-pin sockets in there. I've used one to replace a socket in an Amiga 2000 board already.

Although come to think of it, that A2000 is still fritzing, so take this post fwiw.


so back on topic, I ordered a set of amiga 3000 specific kickstart 3.1 roms.

Lets hope when I pop these in i get SOME sort of life, even if it just a colored screen telling me what is wrong.

IN all im trying to repair a 1000 system, a 2000 system and a 3000 system, all 3 dead. :(

I have a bad feeling this 3000 is done for though.

KC9UDX
July 2nd, 2014, 03:50 PM
I have a bad feeling this 3000 is done for though.

I don't know why you think that. I wouldn't think anything until I see the boot colors.

2.0 ROMs are better for diagnostics. But, you really want to have 3.1 ROMs when it's working anyway.

sev
July 2nd, 2014, 03:53 PM
I don't know why you think that. I wouldn't think anything until I see the boot colors.

2.0 ROMs are better for diagnostics. But, you really want to have 3.1 ROMs when it's working anyway.

I can count about 3 or 4 traces that are burnt off by the battery acid.. :(

KC9UDX
July 2nd, 2014, 04:25 PM
If they are only for the battery memory, it wouldn't be "done for". In any case, 3 or 4 broken traces is a really easy fix, if that's all it is.

sev
July 2nd, 2014, 04:37 PM
If they are only for the battery memory, it wouldn't be "done for". In any case, 3 or 4 broken traces is a really easy fix, if that's all it is.


lets hope so. I'll let you know as soon as I get the chips.

sev
July 3rd, 2014, 02:41 PM
lets hope so. I'll let you know as soon as I get the chips.

got the kickstart 3.1 roms for the 3000. Popped them in .......aaaaaand a whole lot of nothing

that was a waste of 40 bucks.

KC9UDX
July 3rd, 2014, 07:26 PM
are they in the correct sockets? Did you find out if you're supposed to have a ROM tower? Is the CPU running? Did you do the caps lock test?

Crypticalcode0
July 4th, 2014, 07:12 AM
This might seem like a weird question but did you test it with or without the daughter board inserted?

KC9UDX
July 4th, 2014, 08:33 AM
I was thinking that too. With 1.4 or 2.0 ROMs, one would get a yellow screen if trying to boot without the daughterboard. Under 3.1, I don't think that's the case, and I don't recall what the result is.

sev
July 4th, 2014, 09:31 AM
This might seem like a weird question but did you test it with or without the daughter board inserted?

Yeah, no difference without the daughterboard. Also yes the chips are labelled with which socket they go into. And from what I can tell the Mobo on this is a later revision which doesnt need the rom tower...


Not sure what the caps lock test is? The caps light flashes once when i power on..

KC9UDX
July 4th, 2014, 11:37 AM
Press the capsllock 40 times and see if the light always goes on and off.

SParent
July 4th, 2014, 02:14 PM
Did you try to swap the ROMs? I mean put the ROM0 in the ROM1 socket and the ROM1 in the ROM0 socket. Some A3000 mobo were mislabelled. Don't try to turn them around, always respect pin 1 identification, though.

KC9UDX
July 4th, 2014, 04:44 PM
That is true. It was even on a note that came with ROMs for a while.

Also, are there any peripherals plugged in? An A3000 without a battery will take an eternity to scan the SCSI bus and it's pretty common to have a dead SCSI LED in an A3000.

Crypticalcode0
July 4th, 2014, 05:34 PM
The system will not boot without the daughterboard inserted IIRC it has to do with bus mastering which is totempoled on the daughterboard.

sev
July 7th, 2014, 12:30 AM
Press the capsllock 40 times and see if the light always goes on and off.

nope, stops about 12 to 15 clicks of the capslock key

sev
July 7th, 2014, 12:32 AM
That is true. It was even on a note that came with ROMs for a while.

Also, are there any peripherals plugged in? An A3000 without a battery will take an eternity to scan the SCSI bus and it's pretty common to have a dead SCSI LED in an A3000.

how long after power on should i wait before i call it dead?

swappng the roms now! will let you know how it goes

KC9UDX
July 7th, 2014, 06:17 AM
nope, stops about 12 to 15 clicks of the capslock key

Your CPU is not running, or it's running the wrong thing.

Make sure J100 is 1-2, J102 is 2-3, J103 is 2-3, J104 is 1-2. J151 and J152 should be 1-2. This is for a 25MHz system. I'd have to do some research to determine what it would be if you have a 16MHz machine. But this information is online somewhere, albeit in a confusing way probably.

If that is all correct, the next thing I'd do is fix the motherboard damage. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, it shouldn't be hard finding someone in LA that would do it.

KC9UDX
July 7th, 2014, 06:18 AM
how long after power on should i wait before i call it dead?

Ten minutes. That's more than enough time for the SCSI bus scan. But, it appears your CPU isn't running, so you're not even to the point of booting yet.

sev
July 7th, 2014, 11:24 AM
Your CPU is not running, or it's running the wrong thing.

Make sure J100 is 1-2, J102 is 2-3, J103 is 2-3, J104 is 1-2. J151 and J152 should be 1-2. This is for a 25MHz system. I'd have to do some research to determine what it would be if you have a 16MHz machine. But this information is online somewhere, albeit in a confusing way probably.

If that is all correct, the next thing I'd do is fix the motherboard damage. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, it shouldn't be hard finding someone in LA that would do it.


j103 was set to 3-4, i moved it 2-3, gonna try to run it for 10 minutes, see if anything happens.

Any idea how I can hunt down someone that could repair the board? I didnt have too much luck doing repairs on a 2000 I was trying to fix.

KC9UDX
July 7th, 2014, 11:36 AM
j103 was set to 3-4, i moved it 2-3, gonna try to run it for 10 minutes, see if anything happens.

Any idea how I can hunt down someone that could repair the board? I didnt have too much luck doing repairs on a 2000 I was trying to fix.

There are a lot of shops in the yellow pages there, but I have no idea what they charge. Else, ask around on here, or, find a 'maker' club or an amateur radio club near you. Someone in one of those clubs is bound to want to help you.

Crypticalcode0
July 7th, 2014, 01:35 PM
check the Reset line the BR line and the _AS line with a scope.
If the BR line is low when RST rises there is bus contention.
If _AS does not strobe the CPU is either locked or dead.

SParent
July 15th, 2014, 06:18 PM
This thread gave me the boost I needed to finally upgrade my A3000 with 3.1 roms. So I bought and installed them, works great! While I was at it, I made a few tests.

ROMs labelling: my old 2.04 ROMs are labelled "ROM0" and "ROM1". They must be inserted in the wrong socket for the computer to boot, that is, ROM0 in the ROM1 socket, and ROM1 in the ROM0 socket. On the other hand, my new 3.1 ROMS are labelled "U180" and "U181". These markings are correct. They must be inserted in the corresponding socket.

Booting without the daughter card: I got the same result with 2.04 and 3.1 ROMs correctly installed. A yellow screen appears for 1 second, then black. Power led flashes ten times then stays low. Caps lock, when pressed, comes on and off six times, then stays off.

Booting without ROMs, without the daughter card: Screen stays black, power led stays low (doesn't flash). Caps lock, when pressed, comes on and off six times, then stays off. Installing the 3.1 ROMs the wrong way gives the same results as no ROMs.

KC9UDX
July 16th, 2014, 06:09 AM
This thread gave me the boost I needed to finally upgrade my A3000 with 3.1 roms. So I bought and installed them, works great! While I was at it, I made a few tests.

That is very good information, thank you.

Now you can install OS3.9 :cool: