PDA

View Full Version : HP 1000 F-series.



MattisLind
July 8th, 2014, 11:23 PM
Well. Maybe I am crazy, but we got this mail from the Swedish Maritime Administration last year. They had a HP 1000 that they were disposing. Were we interested?

Maybe. There were no specifics about it other than it was in store in Norrköping some 160 km south of Stockholm on several pallets. And it was free.

Down in Norrköping we found this which we brought home.

19370

A HP 21MX F-series with a floating point processor and a HP 7906 drive. Vintage late seventies / early eighties. It had 1 Mbyte of RAM installed.

19371

A very maritime handle for the key... The machine had been used for collecting cartography data.

19372

With the system there were a HP7970E 1600bpi tape drive. There were also a HP7933 hard disk. But we didn't bring that with me. Stupid? Maybe. But as far as could understand there were no disc packs with it. It was heavy and I am bit reluctant trying to keep old hard drives running. There are so much in them that could fail. As far as I understand it could be emulated.

When searching their storage container I also found a HP9810A calculator as well as a Cipher F880 half inch tape drive with PERTEC interface.

There were supposed by another pallet with all manuals, software (presumably disc packs) and the terminals. But it couldn't be found...

Marty
July 9th, 2014, 05:03 AM
Hi All;
MattisLind, Congratulations, You should be able to keep Yourself out of trouble for awhile.. I think Your Cipher is very Similar to mine..

THANK YOU Marty

NeXT
July 9th, 2014, 07:55 AM
I have the same PERTEC tape drives on my PDP-11/84. That I can recall, the 7933 disk drive was a non-removable drive.

Qbus
July 9th, 2014, 09:01 AM
Looks like you’re doing well collecting up the obsolete systems, first the PDP-11 and now the HP, next will have to be a Data General Nova.
Don’t know why the HP-1000 doesn’t get the same amount of love as the DEC stuff? That’s a good haul for a couple hundred miles round trip.

MattisLind
July 9th, 2014, 10:14 AM
Looks like you’re doing well collecting up the obsolete systems, first the PDP-11 and now the HP, next will have to be a Data General Nova.
Don’t know why the HP-1000 doesn’t get the same amount of love as the DEC stuff? That’s a good haul for a couple hundred miles round trip.
It's a planning thing as well. Wife and kids out of town. Can do whatever I want until Saturday...

Well. I agree. It is kind of strange that HP is not getting that much attention. They are nice machines from an engineering point of view. Nicely built, all gold plated cards, sturdy chassis. Maybe they weren't that successful with the software? I actually haven't tried RTE yet.


That I can recall, the 7933 disk drive was a non-removable drive.
You're right. Maybe I should have brought it anyway...

Chuckster_in_Jax
July 9th, 2014, 08:15 PM
. Maybe they weren't that successful with the software? I actually haven't tried RTE yet..

I worked in an Analytical lab that had an HP 1000 for data acquisition . Ours didn't have a hard drive. It had a 2647A terminal like this one.

http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/HP2647A-37L.jpg

Later we upgraded to a HP 1000 A series that used the RTE-1000 operating system. It is very similar to UNIX.
BTW, RTE stands for Real Time Executive.

TerraHertz
August 1st, 2014, 05:01 AM
Down in Norrköping we found this which we brought home.

19370



(Sob) I have been trying to find one more of those HP green racks for ages.
Need one to fill this hole, and typical modern racks are always a little bit too wide. Also, don't match the other 5 HP green racks along this wall.
But do you think I can find one? Nope.
My being in Australia is part of the problem, I suppose. They seem to be very rare here.

19685

MattisLind
August 1st, 2014, 08:34 AM
What about your E-series? Did you get any further with that one? Found any other manuals than the ones at bitsavers? It is really a pity that there are so few engineering drawings for HP equipment (at least compared with DEC). Tony Duell has done a great work reverse engineering several HP machines, for example the HP9830 which I have been working with lately. I don't think he had done anything with HP 1000 though.

Dwight Elvey
August 1st, 2014, 12:27 PM
If this has the DRAM in it and you didn't get the battery pack,
it will need a resistor on the connector that would have gone
to the battery pack to let it think there is a battery pack.
I'd have taken everything they had. Even if I'd have needed to
rent a truck.
Dwight

MattisLind
August 1st, 2014, 01:12 PM
If this has the DRAM in it and you didn't get the battery pack,
it will need a resistor on the connector that would have gone
to the battery pack to let it think there is a battery pack.
I'd have taken everything they had. Even if I'd have needed to
rent a truck.
Dwight

This one has three 256 k boards, and four 64 k boards. So it has DRAMs. And it has the battery pack. The reason for not taking the hard drive was that I thought I use a HPIB emulator to emulate the 7933 drive. And it was rather heavy. But now when thinking of it it would maybe be nice to have the drive... It would make up a nice system. But then there is the space issue. We can't just hoard everything... We already have a M-series with a 7900 drive and paper tape punch / reader. And then the maintenance issue. Maybe 7933 is a very reliable drive. Most HP stuff is very reliable.

The system was delivered in 1979. There is a note indicating so on the inside of the door. I guess that it was later upgraded with more memory (presumably the initial config was four 64 k boards) and the 7933 HPIB drive. Initially I think it only had the 7906 drive.

BTW. Does the 7900 make use of the same cartridges as the 7906?

/Mattis

gslick
August 1st, 2014, 01:24 PM
What about your E-series? Did you get any further with that one? Found any other manuals than the ones at bitsavers? It is really a pity that there are so few engineering drawings for HP equipment (at least compared with DEC). Tony Duell has done a great work reverse engineering several HP machines, for example the HP9830 which I have been working with lately. I don't think he had done anything with HP 1000 though.

What schematics are you looking for which you haven't yet found? I have an HP 1000 2113E and also 2117F (plus a 2100A too) and I think I have been able to find schematics online for every board in them.

In addition to bitsavers there are also docs online at www.hpmuseum.net although I don't know if there are any docs there than aren't also on bitsavers.

Dwight Elvey
August 1st, 2014, 02:49 PM
BTW. Does the 7900 make use of the same cartridges as the 7906?

/Mattis

I don't think so but I'm not an expert on these.
I have neither for mass storage. I'd been looking
for a disk drive and controller to use with my 21MX
but they are always out of my budget. I have loaded
code serially ( RS232 ), just to see something run
but I'm off on other projects right now.
Dwight

MattisLind
August 1st, 2014, 10:25 PM
What schematics are you looking for which you haven't yet found? I have an HP 1000 2113E and also 2117F (plus a 2100A too) and I think I have been able to find schematics online for every board in them.

In addition to bitsavers there are also docs online at www.hpmuseum.net although I don't know if there are any docs there than aren't also on bitsavers.

Maybe I jumped to conclusion a little to fast. If I searched on bitsavers a bit more I could find great deal about the CPU, the 7906 disc, the 13037 disc controller.

What I didn't immediately found was something on the 12821 card. And also stuff for the 7900 disc and controller boards. Maybe it is somewhwere else where I haven't looked yet.

/Mattis

gslick
August 1st, 2014, 10:58 PM
Maybe I jumped to conclusion a little to fast. If I searched on bitsavers a bit more I could find great deal about the CPU, the 7906 disc, the 13037 disc controller.

What I didn't immediately found was something on the 12821 card. And also stuff for the 7900 disc and controller boards. Maybe it is somewhwere else where I haven't looked yet.

/Mattis

12821A
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12821-90006_CS80intf.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12821-90006_Jan82.pdf

7906
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90901_7906_UM_Mar80.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90904_TechInfPkg.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90905_CE_Jul84.pdf

13037
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037-90902_TechInfPk_Aug80.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037-90905_CEhndbook_Mar85.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037A.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037C.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037D.pdf

7900
http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=275

TerraHertz
August 2nd, 2014, 05:34 AM
What about your E-series? Did you get any further with that one? Found any other manuals than the ones at bitsavers? It is really a pity that there are so few engineering drawings for HP equipment (at least compared with DEC). Tony Duell has done a great work reverse engineering several HP machines, for example the HP9830 which I have been working with lately. I don't think he had done anything with HP 1000 though.

It's still sitting on the bench, waiting for a power supply schematic. I've been occupied with several other projects, and the less urgent ones get neglected. Such is life. Hopefully will get back to it uh.... this year.

When I searched, there definitely wasn't a schematic for that model power supply available. I should look again now.

The original article about that machine is here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm

Dwight Elvey
August 2nd, 2014, 07:11 AM
As I'd said, it won't run without the resistor
in the battery pack. As I recall it won't run with
a flat battery loading the supply down either.
The supply is a switcher. As I recall the supply was used
for a couple different models. It seems like I found
the schematic under one of the other models schematics
someplace.
Dwight

MattisLind
August 3rd, 2014, 01:38 PM
12821A
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12821-90006_CS80intf.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12821-90006_Jan82.pdf

7906
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90901_7906_UM_Mar80.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90904_TechInfPkg.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90905_CE_Jul84.pdf

13037
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037-90902_TechInfPk_Aug80.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037-90905_CEhndbook_Mar85.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037A.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037C.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/13037D.pdf

7900
http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=275

Thanks for the pointers. I probably should have found them myself if I had searched a bit better.

Do you have your HP1000 running? What is the config for those machines?

Gerardcjat
August 12th, 2015, 11:30 PM
What schematics are you looking for which you haven't yet found? I have an HP 1000 2113E and also 2117F (plus a 2100A too) and I think I have been able to find schematics online for every board in them.

In addition to bitsavers there are also docs online at www.hpmuseum.net although I don't know if there are any docs there than aren't also on bitsavers.

Hello gslick and everybody ! About the 2113E : Do you mean ** ALL ** boards, including the processor one ??
So far, I haven't been able to locate schematics for it. May you provide some links, if you have them ? Many thanks.

Gerardcjat
August 12th, 2015, 11:36 PM
7933 vs 7900A disk drive question

Updating my knowledge : I was told that a 7900A CANNOT run without a disk pack loaded. Is that true ?

Al Kossow
August 13th, 2015, 07:58 AM
7933 vs 7900A disk drive question

Updating my knowledge : I was told that a 7900A CANNOT run without a disk pack loaded. Is that true ?

Correct, unless you can keep the heads from loading. This is true for any removable media drive.

Also the 7900 and 7906 packs are NOT interchangeable. The disk platter is thicker on the 7906.
7900 uses IBM style 2315 thickness platters.

I have lots more HP manuals scanned, and boxes more that haven't been scanned. Generally I watch the mailing
lists to see if someone is looking for something that isn't already up, and bump it in the queue if I have it.

Getting through all the unsorted paper is something I have to get through soon. It's all taking up way too much space.

gslick
August 13th, 2015, 08:54 AM
Hello gslick and everybody ! About the 2113E : Do you mean ** ALL ** boards, including the processor one ??
So far, I haven't been able to locate schematics for it. May you provide some links, if you have them ? Many thanks.

Take a look here:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/92851-90001_Mar81_1.1.pdf

Appendix G
E/F Series CPU Assembly 5061-1341/1400

Gerardcjat
August 13th, 2015, 11:07 PM
Thanks Guys !!
It's a great pleasure beeing on this Forum, with guys like you.

Gerardcjat
August 13th, 2015, 11:23 PM
BTW, I ***MAY*** have the opportunity to buy an 7009A probably in working order, but no firm warranty given.
WITHOUT any "accessory" : No cable, no disk pack, only the related Power Supply
The vendor is hard in deal, and I expect a bottom line of 400 / 450 Euros ( 450 / 500 $ )
Basically, I think it's a TOO expensive deal.
and I probably will not go for it.
Any opinion on this proposed deal VERY WELCOME.
( I am located near Paris, France )

MattisLind
August 14th, 2015, 03:16 AM
You mean 7900A, right? I think it is a lot of money. But it depends on what other options there is. If you have a HP21MX with a HPIB card then it should be possible to use HPdrive. Have not tested myself yet. With the HP21MX I have there were a 7900A and a lot of cartridges. If you buy it I can probably offer you a pair of cartridges at a reasonable price.

CuriousMarc
August 18th, 2015, 11:56 PM
I have a 7900. Without the interface card that I am still looking for... I would sure buy one of your cartridges if one were available.
Marc

Gerardcjat
August 18th, 2015, 11:59 PM
Thanks, Mattislind,
That a kind offer.
In about two weeks, I will take a almost three hours drive ( one way !! ) to look at this 7900A.
** IF ** I can get a decent price .... I will buy it and then, be back to you.
BTW, Let me know if you "cross again" ;-) any HP 1000, HP 21MX vintage computer or any related I/O device or even cards.
I would REALLY LOVE having one in a WORKING state .... such good memories ....

Gerardcjat
September 2nd, 2015, 10:47 AM
Finally, I got it for "around" $ 225, this afternoon. ( along with a couple of unrelated small parts )
With its power supply, but without any interconnect cable, neither power nor data.
In a "so-so" shape ..... neither bad, neither good .... we will see ....

BTW, does someone on this list has a 21xx or 21 MX in a working state ?? with some type of Hard Disk attached ??
@ Mattislind : Have you plans to restore ( and display ?? ) your recent brought in HP computer in a working state ??
( It would be a very interesting show, but Stocklom is a bit far from where I live ( close to Paris ), but who knowns, one day.... ?? )

Gerardcjat
September 3rd, 2015, 03:54 AM
Correct, unless you can keep the heads from loading. This is true for any removable media drive.


Interesting ! Could you elaborate Al. ?
How can one prevents the heads from loading ? Has it be done successfully ? In order to access / recover data on the fixed plate, I think ??

MattisLind
September 3rd, 2015, 10:06 PM
@ Mattislind : Have you plans to restore ( and display ?? ) your recent brought in HP computer in a working state ??
Yes. I do have plans. But then there is reality. It is not always that they make a perfect match... But the HP21MX, one M and one F are systems I'd like to start to tinker with. I have a GPIB board in one of them and a starter is to use hpdrive and run the RTE-IV system. The drives are a for a later stage.

CuriousMarc
September 4th, 2015, 12:29 AM
Finally, I got it for "around" $ 225, this afternoon. ( along with a couple of unrelated small parts )
With its power supply, but without any interconnect cable, neither power nor data.
In a "so-so" shape ..... neither bad, neither good .... we will see ....

BTW, does someone on this list has a 21xx or 21 MX in a working state ?? with some type of Hard Disk attached ??
@ Mattislind : Have you plans to restore ( and display ?? ) your recent brought in HP computer in a working state ??
( It would be a very interesting show, but Stocklom is a bit far from where I live ( close to Paris ), but who knowns, one day.... ?? )
I do have a 21MX (a 2112 to be exact) and a 7900 drive (with cables!), but I am still missing the disk interface card. And a tape reader and two tape punches and a 7970 mag tape and an ASR 33 TTY with interface cards for each. I have not started to restore any of it yet, they are in the cue. Getting that amount of stuff to work will take a looong while...
Jay West has many HP 1000's that work with disks attached.
Marc

Gerardcjat
September 4th, 2015, 01:10 AM
Thanks Guys !
Is Jay West on this forum ? What is pseudonym ?
My quick search "here" didn't produce any results.

CuriousMarc
September 5th, 2015, 12:33 AM
Thanks Guys !
Is Jay West on this forum ? What is pseudonym ?
My quick search "here" didn't produce any results.

Don't know. Very active on classiccmp.org. Very knowledgeable about these systems. Just met him at VCF MidWest last week-end.

I just uploaded a video of my system as it arrived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJoXFdUBSeQ

Marc

Gerardcjat
September 6th, 2015, 06:27 AM
Nice video !
So, I understand that your system arrived very recently. Correct ?

NeXT
September 6th, 2015, 08:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NJoXFdUBSeQ#t=237

That board. Well I'll be damned! I fished an identical board but with a brown PCB and unmasked gold traces out of a goldbug's card bin years ago. I still got it but I mounted it inside a picture frame because I could never figure out what HP device it came out of.
Now I know. :)

gslick
September 6th, 2015, 10:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NJoXFdUBSeQ#t=237

That board. Well I'll be damned! I fished an identical board but with a brown PCB and unmasked gold traces out of a goldbug's card bin years ago. I still got it but I mounted it inside a picture frame because I could never figure out what HP device it came out of.
Now I know. :)

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/92851-90001_Mar81_6.pdf

Page D-1, 5060-8400 4K ROM Base Set Assembly

Gerardcjat
September 7th, 2015, 12:46 AM
Hey Guys, you lost me ...
It's easy, as I am not so fluent in English ;-)

I KNOW the board Gslick refer to
But , I do not understand NeXT comment, as ( at least for me ) there is no such thing (board ) in the video.
( Unless you speak of different versions of the board mentioned at 4 mn in the video. Is that right ?? )
What I have missed ??

NeXT
September 7th, 2015, 07:07 AM
Hey Guys, you lost me ...
It's easy, as I am not so fluent in English ;-)

But , I do not understand NeXT comment, as ( at least for me ) there is no such thing (board ) in the video.
( Unless you speak of different versions of the board mentioned at 4 mn in the video. Is that right ?? )
What I have missed ??

Sorry, this board:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CGS_1049.jpg

Yours is green but otherwise they are identical.

Gerardcjat
September 7th, 2015, 11:00 PM
OK, got it now !!
Two questions :
- One knows the HP part number ? I would like to check something on the shematics.
and /or
- someone can confirm that the I.C. ( TOP right corner ) **IS** the PROM boot loader I.C. ?

Thanks

NeXT
September 8th, 2015, 07:44 AM
gslick's PDF link shows the card on page 24. Part 5060-8400 "4K ROM Base-Set Assembly"
Parts list is on the next page and the schematic on the page after that.

Gerardcjat
September 27th, 2015, 07:31 AM
If this has the DRAM in it and you didn't get the battery pack,
it will need a resistor on the connector that would have gone
to the battery pack to let it think there is a battery pack.
I'd have taken everything they had. Even if I'd have needed to
rent a truck.
Dwight
Hello All !
I think I am going to confront this issue pretty soon ...
Does someone tell me what resistor value , on which connector and which pins ?? Many Thanks !!
And/Or where can I found schematics of the "battery pack" interconnect ?

Gerardcjat
September 27th, 2015, 07:43 AM
About FLOPPY DISKS DRIVES ( either 8" ou 5" ) interconnected to HP 21MX ...

I know it was possible to connect such unit(s) through an HPIB interface card ** BUT **
does anyone know if there is/was an other "way" to connect Floppy drives ( not HPIB protocol ) ??
and BTW, did somebody ever do that ? I mean : buiding some custom interface, NOT HPIB ??

gslick
September 27th, 2015, 08:45 AM
Hello All !
I think I am going to confront this issue pretty soon ...
Does someone tell me what resistor value , on which connector and which pins ?? Many Thanks !!
And/Or where can I found schematics of the "battery pack" interconnect ?

The Temperature Sense Thermistor RT1, normally 815 ohms, is wired across the two outside pins of the middle row, pins 4 and 6.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/92851-90001_Jun79_9.pdf

Description page 111
Schematic page 168

There are also other versions of the HP-1000 power supply so make sure you double check that this information matches your hardware.

gslick
September 27th, 2015, 08:58 AM
About FLOPPY DISKS DRIVES ( either 8" ou 5" ) interconnected to HP 21MX ...

I know it was possible to connect such unit(s) through an HPIB interface card ** BUT **
does anyone know if there is/was an other "way" to connect Floppy drives ( not HPIB protocol ) ??
and BTW, did somebody ever do that ? I mean : buiding some custom interface, NOT HPIB ??

One other option was the 9885M 8-inch floppy disk drive which used an HP proprietary interface instead of HPIB.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12732-90005_Flexable_Disc_Subsystem_Oct78.pdf

OPERATING AND SERVICE MANUAL
HP 12732A/12733A
FLEXIBLE DISC SUBSYSTEM
Manual Part No. 12732-90005
Microfiche Part No. 12732-90006

1-2. GENERAL DESCRIPTION

The HP 12732A Flexible Disc Subsystem consists of an
HP 9885M (Master) Flexible Disc Drive, an HP 12735A
Computer Interface, disc formatting software, subsystem
diagnostic software, and associated manuals. An optional
HP 12733A Add-On Flexible Disc Drive includes an HP
9885S (Slave) Flexible Disc Drive and a cable for connection
to either the master disc drive or another slave. The
subsystem is designed for use with the HP 21MX
M-Series, and HP 21MX E-Series computers. Driver
software is available for operation in Real Time Executive
(RTE) systems.