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8008guy
January 2nd, 2015, 06:33 PM
In the process of fixing a memory board for my PDP11/83 I designed a programmer for these PLDs. If anyone is mildly interested in building one let me know and I will do a write up and post everything. I use a ATMEGA1284 in the programmer.

len

MattisLind
February 19th, 2015, 10:15 PM
In the process of fixing a memory board for my PDP11/83 I designed a programmer for these PLDs. If anyone is mildly interested in building one let me know and I will do a write up and post everything. I use a ATMEGA1284 in the programmer.

len
I am interested! Not that I have an immediate need for programming PLS153 chips, but in general programming old fuse based PROM and PLDs are interesting since all modern programmers fail to do so.

dave_m
February 20th, 2015, 07:43 AM
In the process of fixing a memory board for my PDP11/83 I designed a programmer for these PLDs. If anyone is mildly interested in building one let me know and I will do a write up and post everything. I use a ATMEGA1284 in the programmer.

len
Is it specific to the PLS153A or can it program the Signetics PLS100 (82S100)?

gslick
February 20th, 2015, 08:00 AM
I am interested! Not that I have an immediate need for programming PLS153 chips, but in general programming old fuse based PROM and PLDs are interesting since all modern programmers fail to do so.

Some current model programmers still support programming PLS100 and PLS153 parts. My BP Micro 1410/84 does (no longer in production but still supported) along with the current model replacements 1610 and 1710, although those are in the category of if you have to ask how much they cost new you can't afford them device programmers.

eeguru
February 20th, 2015, 11:21 AM
All the Elnac based programmers will do both 153 and 100 series.

bigral
March 26th, 2016, 12:09 PM
I need programmer for pls167a this is variation of pls105, do you have any materials online?

dave_m
March 27th, 2016, 10:08 AM
I need programmer for pls167a this is variation of pls105, do you have any materials online?

If you have a JEDEC source file or perhaps a master PLS167, an old Data I/O 29B with a standard 303A-011 LogicPak adapter will be able to program it.

Kakemoms
September 17th, 2016, 12:42 AM
In the process of fixing a memory board for my PDP11/83 I designed a programmer for these PLDs. If anyone is mildly interested in building one let me know and I will do a write up and post everything. I use a ATMEGA1284 in the programmer.

len

Are you still here? I have a problem putting together an old prototype Commodore B256-80 board which needs a Signetics PLS100N. Luckily I got one, but I have no idea how to program it (and only have a fairly new EPROM programmer). So if you (or anyone else here) have a link or some material on how you built your programmer I would appreciate it. I have some ATMEGA256 boards on the shelf.

8008guy
March 13th, 2018, 12:59 PM
Are you still here? I have a problem putting together an old prototype Commodore B256-80 board which needs a Signetics PLS100N. Luckily I got one, but I have no idea how to program it (and only have a fairly new EPROM programmer). So if you (or anyone else here) have a link or some material on how you built your programmer I would appreciate it. I have some ATMEGA256 boards on the shelf.

Sorry to respond late, I just saw this. Did you ever get your device programmed?

I cant see your device listed as supported by my data io programmer.

There is a yahoo group for data io programmers, I would guess that someone has one that may support your chip. The other way would be to get the data sheet and do ir the way I did originally.

Cheers,

Len

gslick
March 13th, 2018, 01:50 PM
The Signetics / Philips PLS100 is listed as supported by my BP Micro programmer. Does your Data I/O programmer support the 82S100? I wonder if the two parts are functionally equivalent down to the programming algorithms, with the PLS100 / PLS101 just being newer part numbers of the same 82S100 / 82S101 parts.

Anyway, I imagine it doesn't really matter for the purpose of this thread with the previous activity 1.5 years old.

8008guy
March 13th, 2018, 06:19 PM
The Signetics / Philips PLS100 is listed as supported by my BP Micro programmer. Does your Data I/O programmer support the 82S100? I wonder if the two parts are functionally equivalent down to the programming algorithms, with the PLS100 / PLS101 just being newer part numbers of the same 82S100 / 82S101 parts.

Anyway, I imagine it doesn't really matter for the purpose of this thread with the previous activity 1.5 years old.

Ill look in the am.

Best way to grab my attention is a pm, Probably like many others....

dave_m
March 14th, 2018, 10:40 PM
I cant see your device listed as supported by my data io programmer.



Len,
The Data I/O Model 29B (and older Unisites) do support the Signetics PLS100 (82S100). However the 29B LogicPak needs some rare adapters. It needs the 303A-001 Signetics Programming Adapter which will do the trick if one has the needed JEDEC file or the Signetics format H&L file.

If you only have equations or a Truth Table, then you also need the 303A-101 Signetics Programming Adapter which will generate a Signetics H&L file. The file format is very similar to the programming sheet at the end of the 82S100 Spec sheet. I'm guessing a JEDEC file from an old version of WinCupl (not the Atmel version) or equivalent will also work.

Someone on the cbm-hackers site recently found a very old version of CUPL at the Purdue Math Department (https://www.math.purdue.edu/~wilker/misc/DEVEL/0001/DISK1/). Hopefully it has a full device library.
-Dave

EDIT: The library in this CUPL package is very limited and does not have the F100 device file for the PLS100. So use the Signetics Amaze package as noted in message #19.

8008guy
March 15th, 2018, 07:23 PM
Len,
The Data I/O Model 29B (and older Unisites) do support the Signetics PLS100 (82S100). However the 29B LogicPak needs some rare adapters. It needs the 303A-001 Signetics Programming Adapter which will do the trick if one has the needed JEDEC file or the Signetics format H&L file.

If you only have equations or a Truth Table, then you also need the 303A-101 Signetics Programming Adapter which will generate a Signetics H&L file. The file format is very similar to the programming sheet at the end of the 82S100 Spec sheet. I'm guessing a JEDEC file from an old version of WinCupl (not the Atmel version) or equivalent will also work.

Someone on the cbm-hackers site recently found a very old version of CUPL at the Purdue Math Department (https://www.math.purdue.edu/~wilker/misc/DEVEL/0001/DISK1/). Hopefully it has a full device library.
-Dave

Yep, understand. i only have one adaptor for my series 22. I wish the adaptor schematics were available...

AK6DN
March 15th, 2018, 08:19 PM
I have an EEtools TopMaxII device programmer, which can do virtually all the old bipolar fuse based devices, including the PLS1xx series from Signetics/Philips.
So I am able to program devices for someone if you can provide the JEDEC programming file.

I also have an install of DataIO EZ-ABELv4.30 that I can run in DosBox on my Win7 64b machine (or it will run native on WinXP 32b command line, it is a 16b app).

Example log file for a PLS153 device (similar architecture to PLS100/82S100, just a smaller package):

****************************************

AHDL2PLA ABEL-HDL Processor
EZ-ABEL 4.30 Copyright 1990-1992 Data I/O Corp. All Rights Reserved
Module: 'COMP4A'
Processing equations...
Parsing test vectors...
Writing vectors to comp4a.tmv...
Module parsing complete. Generating logic equations...
Creating reduced sum-of-products on-set matrix....
Creating ABEL-PLA file comp4a.tt1...

AHDL2PLA complete - 0 errors, 0 warnings. Time: 2 seconds

****************************************

PLAOPT ABEL PLA Optimizer
EZ-ABEL 4.30 Copyright 1990-1992 Data I/O Corp. All Rights Reserved

Input file: 'comp4a.TT1'.
UC Berkeley, Espresso Ver. 2.2, modified by Data I/O Corp.
Group Reduction...
Reading PLA comp4a.TT1...
Running PLA optimization...
Writing PLA format to comp4a.TT2...
Execution time = 1 sec.
Group results in 'comp4a.TT2'.

PLAOPT complete. Time: 0 seconds

****************************************

PLASIM ABEL PLA Simulator
EZ-ABEL 4.30 Copyright 1987-1992 Data I/O Corp. All Rights Reserved

PLA file: 'comp4a.TT2'
Vector file: 'comp4a.tmv'
Building model...
Simulating PLA...
.................................................. .....................
.................................................. .....................
.................................................. .....................
...........................................

256 out of 256 vectors passed.
Simulation results in 'comp4a.SIM'.

PLASIM complete. Time: 1 second

****************************************

FUSEASM Fusemap Assembler
EZ-ABEL 4.32 Copyright 1990-1992 Data I/O Corp. All Rights Reserved

Input file: 'comp4a.TT2'
Device: 'F153'
Choosing best polarities...
Mapping equations...
38 of 42 terms used; 256 vectors loaded
Programmer load file: 'comp4a.jed'
Generating report...
Report file: 'comp4a.LST'

FUSEASM complete. Time: 1 second

****************************************

JEDSIM ABEL JEDEC Fusemap Simulator
EZ-ABEL 4.30 Copyright 1987-1992 Data I/O Corp. All Rights Reserved

JEDEC file: 'comp4a.JED'
Device: 'F153'
Building model...
Simulating model...
.................................................. .....................
.................................................. .....................
.................................................. .....................
...........................................

256 out of 256 vectors passed.
Simulation results in 'comp4a.sim'.

JEDSIM complete. Time: 1 second

****************************************



And lastly, I also have my older EETools TopMax programmer which is the prior parallel-port based version of the TopMaxII (which has a USB interface). It is still perfectly functional, but it requires a WindowsXP machine with a real parallel port to be able to run the EEtools MaxLoader software (www.eetools.com). I'm willing to let it go to a good home to someone that can make use of it. Original cost was $495 years ago, I'll give it up for $100 plus shipping.

Don

PS: EEtools TopMax has been claimed.

dave_m
March 15th, 2018, 10:00 PM
i only have one adaptor for my series 22. I wish the adaptor schematics were available...

Yes, I agree, Schematics would be good. The little programming adapters are getting impossible to find. It took me several years to find one for the Intel 8048 uC family.

Malc
March 16th, 2018, 12:58 AM
Yes, I agree, Schematics would be good. The little programming adapters are getting impossible to find. It took me several years to find one for the Intel 8048 uC family.
And when they do turn up, Some sellers think they are made of gold and want a fortune for them, Great programmers but yes the adapters are getting harder to find.

8008guy
March 16th, 2018, 04:39 AM
Yes, I agree, Schematics would be good. The little programming adapters are getting impossible to find. It took me several years to find one for the Intel 8048 uC family.

Can you create a schematic for that one and post it?

gslick
March 16th, 2018, 10:44 AM
Regarding PLS100 / 82S100 parts, the F100 diagram on page 43 (page 57 of the PDF) of this Data I/O manual has the fuse number map that is missing from the datasheets.

Logic Diagram Package, 981-0251
www.bitsavers.org/test_equipment/dataIO/981-0251_ProgrammableLogicDiagramPackage_Sep90.pdf (http://www.bitsavers.org/test_equipment/dataIO/981-0251_ProgrammableLogicDiagramPackage_Sep90.pdf)

That part is simple enough that, if necessary, logic equations for the part could be hand translated into a JEDEC fuse map without finding any software with a fitter for that part. For OTP parts it might be good to get someone else to double check your work before burning a part.

Al Kossow
March 16th, 2018, 10:51 AM
I dug up a few old Signetics PLD DOS programs (simpal and amaze) yesterday
ULed to http://bitsavers.org/components/signetics

gslick
March 16th, 2018, 11:12 AM
I dug up a few old Signetics PLD DOS programs (simpal and amaze) yesterday
ULed to http://bitsavers.org/components/signetics

Excellent. I'll have to try running those some time to see how they work.

From a quick look at the Amaze_1.7 files it appears that the supported device list includes the following:


PLS100 PLS103 PLS105 PLS151
PLS153 PLC153 PLHS153 PLUS153
PLS155 PLS157 PLS159 PLS161
PLS162 PLS163 PLS167 PLS168
PLS173 PLUS173 PLS179 PLC473
PLHS473 PLHS18P8 PLUS405 PLHS501
PLC16V8 PLC20V8 PLUS16R4 PLUS16R6
PLUS16R8 PLUS16L8 PLHS16L8 PLUS20R4
PLUS20R6 PLUS20R8 PLUS20L8 82S115
82S123 82S129 82S131 82S135
82S137 82S147 82S181 82LS181
82S183 82S185 82HS187 82HS189
82S191 82HS195 82HS189

snuci
March 16th, 2018, 12:39 PM
And lastly, I also have my older EETools TopMax programmer which is the prior parallel-port based version of the TopMaxII (which has a USB interface). It is still perfectly functional, but it requires a WindowsXP machine with a real parallel port to be able to run the EEtools MaxLoader software (www.eetools.com). I'm willing to let it go to a good home to someone that can make use of it. Original cost was $495 years ago, I'll give it up for $100 plus shipping.

Don

Don, if available, I'll take it for $100. PM me if it's still available.

AK6DN
March 16th, 2018, 03:03 PM
Don, if available, I'll take it for $100. PM me if it's still available.

You got it; EEtools TopMax has been claimed.

dave_m
March 16th, 2018, 04:33 PM
Excellent. I'll have to try running those some time to see how they work.

From a quick look at the Amaze_1.7 files it appears that the supported device list includes the following:



gslick,
Do you actually have any of these parts? The PLS100/82S100 are hard to find and expense. Does anyone have a source for these parts?
They are used in some Commodore computers and would be useful for repair.
-Dave

gslick
March 16th, 2018, 07:56 PM
Nope, I don't have any PLS100 / 82S100 parts myself. Never had any hardware which uses those.

I see some listed as NOS / unprogrammed on eBay around the $20 - $25 range. Not cheap, and you'd have to risk that they have actually never been programmed. They are one time programmable, so if they have been programmed they would not be suitable for reuse. You would want to buy from someone that offers a money back guarantee if they were not blank.

AK6DN
March 16th, 2018, 11:13 PM
Nope, I don't have any PLS100 / 82S100 parts myself. Never had any hardware which uses those.

I see some listed as NOS / unprogrammed on eBay around the $20 - $25 range. Not cheap, and you'd have to risk that they have actually never been programmed. They are one time programmable, so if they have been programmed they would not be suitable for reuse. You would want to buy from someone that offers a money back guarantee if they were not blank.

I purchased a lot of 12 supposedly NOS unprogrammed PLS100N (same as 82S100N) parts from eBay, and only two of the lot were truly blank/unprogrammed. The ten other parts looked to be variously programmed and were decidedly not blank. So I would be really cautious about sourcing these parts from eBay now, especially shipped from China.

There seem to be a lot of Chinese vendors that have 'new' 82S100/PLS100 on eBay, and I'm pretty skeptical at this point. They are charging $20-$25 each for what I am assuming are already programmed parts / board pulls, or in some case are downright counterfit parts that have been relabeled.

My purchase was quite a while ago and I think I paid $5 each quite a few years ago, and basically ate the cost for the already programmed parts. So caveat emptor.

dave_m
March 17th, 2018, 09:42 AM
Can you create a schematic for that one and post it?

I had at peek at the standard adapter (303A-011) that I had handy. It's a 6" X 4.5" board. I was hoping it would be 8 pin drivers and a couple of PROMs. But looking at it, I think it would take two men and a boy to buzz it out in a timely manner <smile>.

The board does say 'Generic Mother Board 701-2090-007' so perhaps it is the same one on all adapters?

Will these type adapters work on a Model 22 Programmer?
-Dave

44383

dave_m
March 17th, 2018, 10:03 AM
I purchased a lot of 12 supposedly NOS unprogrammed PLS100N (same as 82S100N) parts from eBay, and only two of the lot were truly blank/unprogrammed. The ten other parts looked to be variously programmed and were decidedly not blank. So I would be really cautious about sourcing these parts from eBay now, especially shipped from China.



Yes,
Selling one-time programmable devices from board pulls is questionable. Do these vendors not understand or are they pure rip-off?

A couple of years ago I bought three 82S100's from a source in China hoping they were perhaps good clones or NOS. One worked. I wonder if they are intentionally putting in a blank device in with the bad to keep from getting returns?

dave_m
March 17th, 2018, 10:13 AM
I dug up a few old Signetics PLD DOS programs (simpal and amaze) yesterday
ULed to http://bitsavers.org/components/signetics

Al,
Thanks so much, I have been looking for the Signetics Amaze software for years!
-Dave

Al Kossow
March 17th, 2018, 10:24 AM
Al,
Thanks so much, I have been looking for the Signetics Amaze software for years!
-Dave

I just saw the original slipcase so LMK if there are any problems with the zip files.

8008guy
April 2nd, 2018, 06:12 PM
I had at peek at the standard adapter (303A-011) that I had handy. It's a 6" X 4.5" board. I was hoping it would be 8 pin drivers and a couple of PROMs. But looking at it, I think it would take two men and a boy to buzz it out in a timely manner <smile>.

The board does say 'Generic Mother Board 701-2090-007' so perhaps it is the same one on all adapters?

Will these type adapters work on a Model 22 Programmer?
-Dave

44383

I dont think so. The adaptors for the series 22 dont appear nearly that complicated. Typically 8748s and 8751s just require a crystal and a few other parts. They program much like an eprom.