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raoulduke
January 9th, 2016, 02:15 PM
I was hoping this would work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/131674565831 - but this (http://www.atari.org/hosted/quickfaq/stfaq_3.htm#5) seems to indicate that it will not work, but that a PC serial mouse can be connected to the serial port.

This (https://web.archive.org/web/20020921053737/http://bales.free.fr/atari/files/text/pc_mouse.txt) is also useful (re bus mice); I bought a $2 Microsoft serial mouse but I think I can probably make my own adapter, no? Still, does anyone have a pin diagram preferably comparing PS/2 and Serial?

Timo W.
January 10th, 2016, 01:23 AM
What exactly are you trying to do? You can not connect a serial mouse (incl. ps/2) to the Atari mouse port by only using a simple adapter. For that, you would need some sort of intelligent adapter (TOM, or JERRY(+) - yes, that's how they are called ;) ). On the other hand, a real bus mouse (e.g. from an Amiga) can be converted easily by just rewiring the cables.

A serial mouse connected to the serial port will always require a driver and will most likely not work reliable outside of GEM.

g4ugm
January 10th, 2016, 03:27 AM
The Atari ST mouse is pretty straight forward. Yes you can connect a Microsoft Bus Mouse but they are rarer than hens teeth. I actually built a Eifel interface as per this:-

http://alive.atari.org/alive4/eiffel.php

but that replaces the whole keyboard, mouse and joystick. The late techy Alison produced the "Pest" interface

http://pest.atari.org/

but that does no seem to be available either. Not sure if I still have one....

SomeGuy
January 10th, 2016, 05:08 AM
Those cheap PS/2 to Serial adapters only work if the PS/2 mouse has built in electronics to support serial operation. Most current PS/2 mice don't. These adapters were bundled with mice that included this support and not intended to be used with other mice. I seem to recall there were also several different non-interchangeable versions of these adapters.

raoulduke
January 10th, 2016, 07:06 AM
Thanks Timo, I've seen the Jerry on eBay. I'm just trying to jury rig a mouse. I'm getting an ST today and assuming it works fine I should be able to make disks similarly to the way I do it for classic Macs; but unlike my repository of Mac hardware I have nothing for ST. And g4ugm they're actually still somewhat common around the thrift shops in NJ. I got a yellowed MS serial mouse for $2 yesterday in anticipation of this [there was also a cheap-looking OfficeMax serial mouse I'd passed over repeatedly for over a month - I think also $2]*. I'd seen it there for weeks but had no use for it until now. Actually Eiffel is potentially interesting as a project (to build I mean) but my goal here is quick and cheap. Someguy that's useful knowledge. Thank you.

So I guess what I'll be doing is trying the software-based serial approach at first (via serial port - not mouse port). Timo, the need for a board is true if you want a serial-mouse port connection but is there no "dumb" way of just wiring the connection? I'm inferring you're saying no for serial to mouse (i.e. if I found the pin-outs I could not just use wires - literal wires; the Jerry is actually an electronic device and not a passive adapter? - same question for bus mice [also have an InPort]). Thanks again guys.

*This isn't because there are steals in NJ, this is because the thrift shops basically set old tech prices arbitrarily. Sometimes that comes out less and sometimes it comes out more. But generally it's absurd.

[And so, for instance, this is wrong? http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/252244910944

Timo W.
January 10th, 2016, 07:43 AM
but is there no "dumb" way of just wiring the connection? [...] the Jerry is actually an electronic device and not a passive adapter?
The Atari mouse does - just like all other bus mice - nothing more than sending raw quadrature signals to the computer. The calculation of what movement actually happens is done by software. A serial mouse on the other hand is a serial device just like e.g. a modem. It talks to the computer using a well-defined protocol. Because of that difference, rewiring is not possible. Adapters like Jerry do protocol conversion to make a serial mouse work (well, an USB mouse actually, just to stay correct).

With some luck, you may find a serial mouse that is simple enough to grab the quadrature signals before they get converted to serial data and solder wires there like the Atari would need them. But in most serial mice, there's only a single IC that does all the "magic".


[ And so, for instance, this is wrong? http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/252244910944 ]
Kind of, yes. On a serial port, it will work with every computer that has a driver for serial mice. But it won't work on the native mouse port of an Amiga or Atari.

SomeGuy
January 10th, 2016, 07:44 AM
The mouse you linked to (and their is a trailing "]" in your link), is a Microsoft Serial compatible mouse for IBM PCs. It says so on the bottom, and the "MS"/"PC" switch enables it to switch between the Microsoft serial protocol and Mouse Systems (that was sometimes sold under the name PC Mouse) protocol. (There are a small few IBM PC programs that only allow a Mouse Systems compatible mouse).

Do serial mice used on an Atari expect the Microsoft or Mouse Systems protocol? I'd assume Microsoft.

If you want a serial mouse, you might also consider this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ABSO-Serial-3-Button-Mouse-Model-300-/350022324437

I got a couple of these a while back, and they are very nice new-old-stock serial mice. They don't have the MS/PC switch, but they can use Mouse Systems mode by holding down a button during boot up, and theoretically the chip can be jumper wired to select Mouse Systems by default (haven't tried that yet). It is also on this side of the planet.

g4ugm
January 10th, 2016, 01:53 PM
And g4ugm they're actually still somewhat common around the thrift shops in NJ. I got a yellowed MS serial mouse for $2 yesterday in anticipation of this [there was also a cheap-looking OfficeMax serial mouse I'd passed over repeatedly for over a month - I think also $2

I said BUS mouse not Serial Mouse. Completely different animal...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_mouse

g4ugm
January 10th, 2016, 02:08 PM
Oh yes you can use a serial mouse with a driver but it won't work with games as they boot from a disk and you can't load a driver. Mind you most games don't need a mouse, they are pure joystick/arcade games. Also plenty of Atari mice (and compatibles) on e-bay.

Chuck(G)
January 10th, 2016, 02:48 PM
I've seen PIC or AVR MCUs to do the mouse translation also from a standard PS/2 mouse.

raoulduke
January 10th, 2016, 02:49 PM
Fair. Bus mice are rarer... lol also found one at the same thrift shop along with an InPort card. But only one, in this case and it was over a long period of time.

Yeah and this is an F, so clearly that's not going to work because I'll only be able to use a mouse lol... not the most exciting application. Let me get video running first. I don't think the seller's going to accept my offer on the mouse so I may put another up. In any event, I appreciate your help.

Why do people prefer the adapters to mice? They're roughly the same cost. I can see for collectors, but if you only have one machine I don't see the appeal. Or rather if you're not using multiple machines simultaneously either, I guess... I'm paring down my mac mice.

*Chuck, sorry I missed your comment. But those would be onboard something like a "Jerry," right? [The Dead's never been the same without PICs... err Jerry.]

Chuck(G)
January 10th, 2016, 03:10 PM
Yup--lots of versions of PS2 to Amigas, but I recall seeing an ST version as well. Same idea, different firmware.

1ST1
January 11th, 2016, 07:10 AM
Hello, in the german atari-home.de forum currently we currently shot sparrows with cannons... There is a project to connect a raspberry pi (zero) to the IKBD interface and to convert USB keyboard and mouse messages to ST IKBD. What's still missing, is USB joystick support.

http://forum.atari-home.de/index.php?topic=12582.0

But the idea is not new, also CosmosEx floppy/harddisk emulator has this functionality.

Chuck(G)
January 11th, 2016, 09:06 AM
There are very cheap Maple Mini clones from China that are even cheaper (STM32F103 based, 72MHz) that are up to the task; I prefer the PS2 mouse and keyboard setup as they're cheap and plentiful--and sometimes (e.g. IBM PS2) quite a bit better constructed.

1ST1
January 11th, 2016, 10:56 AM
Don't forget, with the Rapi based thing you even can use modern RF wireless USB mouse and keyboard... PS/2 mice are often old and used.

SiriusHardware
January 11th, 2016, 11:04 AM
Raoulduke, since you are fortunate enough to live in the USA, you have the best Atari spares seller in the world in your country, namely 'Best Electronics' over in California.

The proprietor bought tons of original Atari parts and stock when they went out of business - I would be amazed if you could not buy a real 'new old stock' or reconditioned Atari ST mouse from there.

Failing that, they come up all the time on ebay.

Chuck(G)
January 11th, 2016, 11:10 AM
PS2 Mice aren't at all rare--and many aren't even used (I still have a carton of Genius optical mice (new), not to mention a bunch of real PS/2 mice. I like the PS/2 style because interfacing is simple; you don't need to go through the USB rigamarole. But hey, I'm a packrat and it's your project.

I don't even own a USB keyboard--but I've got plenty of Model Ms.

raoulduke
January 11th, 2016, 01:08 PM
Sirius, the issue is price. I eviscerated this post, which was about gouger antiquers on eBay; but I think at least one of the sellers actually refurbishes mice and one may hand make new ones. But really I eviscerated it because it's off topic:

So I found this (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.atari.st/c9fc81OYLnY), re: converting Amstrad bus mice to ST, but it looks like both the MS bus and ADB aggregate data and there's, I'm guessing where the circuitry is required to disaggregate. I found this (http://atariage.com/forums/topic/198878-mouse-conversion/) as well. I'll confess I can't read the circuit diagram well; it's been a really long time since I screwed around with that as a kid. But I have spare PCB boards and the willingness to test on an ADBII mouse.
--
Can someone list the components; I get the chip and the C1 and R1 and R2; D are diodes [are they on the original mouse board?], what are PhR - some type of resistor?, the switch is the button, I'm guessing... And finally RP1, which I assumed was the resistor visible on the board under the chip, how does that have 8 inputs? My problem is that the number of components on his board don't coincide with the diagram even assuming some of the diagram is the original board.... Any help here would be much appreciated.

G4ugm, is there an actual diagram for Eifel? I couldn't figure it out just from the link you sent.

g4ugm
January 12th, 2016, 08:22 AM
There is one here with lots of extra's:-

http://didierm.pagesperso-orange.fr/

or direct link to the English page....

http://didierm.pagesperso-orange.fr/eiffel-e.htm

I may have a board if you are interested. Probably about $5 to post to US.

raoulduke
January 12th, 2016, 02:58 PM
Oh wow... That looks way too complicated for me to make. I'm currently thinking of trying to adapt a mouse per this (https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/26743-adb-to-atari-st-converter/), but I'll PM you.

raoulduke
January 12th, 2016, 08:44 PM
http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyKMDAX-9P

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=DE09P064HTXLFvirtualkey649100 00virtualkey649-DE09P064HTXLF

I can actually just connect the pins directly from an IBM PC bus mouse to the ST mouse port; so I can make a $5 adapter [from an MS bus mouse - you can actually find info on the 3-button Logitech mouse in the links below, also].

Quoting myself at 68kmla: "...MS [bus] mouse from here (https://www.cs.rochester.edu/~kparkins/pinouts.txt) and the Atari pinout from here (http://raspinovca.ru/cocolevca/Atari-Mouse-Joy-Connector.gif) or here (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.atari.st/c9fc81OYLnY) [which reverses the Xa and Xb seen below]:

MS --------------- Atari
Black | 1 | +5V -- 7
|Brown | 2 | Xa -- 2
|Red | 3 | Xb | ---- 1
|Orange | 4 | Ya -- 3
|Yellow | 5 | Yb --- 4
|Green | 6 | Left --- 6
[|Violet | 7 | Middle]
|Gray | 8 | Right --- 9
|White | 9 | GND -- 8"

I'm not sure why one says Xa is 1 and Xb is 2 and the other says the inverse; my gut tells me that would just invert the X axis, but I guess we'll see.

Mint-Cream
February 24th, 2016, 05:38 PM
I used to remember an Atari games usually uses joystick. Am I right? Though, you may use a serial mouse with a driver. The best replacement also for an Atari mouse can be (PeST ) PS/2 mouse. It can be used on a serial line with a PS/2-to-serial adapter.

raoulduke
February 25th, 2016, 12:45 PM
29789

But those all require active adapters. This one is purely passive. So long as you have a bus mouse, you can actually just wire it over to the Atari setup. The ST has two ports, or at least the 1040 does, one is labeled (pictographically) mouse/joystick and the other is joystick. I've actually not yet been able to find any disk images that work so far, so I haven't tested any software. You may be right; maybe most games use joysticks. But the ST really needs a mouse to function. I also have a Atari Trakball that works, but I don't know if it works as a 'joystick.' I'm guessing it does; it has a switch for both modes, whatever that means. But my mouse adapter works better.

Oh also, since I've posted again anyway. In the above chart, what I posted as X-axis wiring is fine; but the Y axis is reversed - so bus 4 goes to Atari 4 and bus 5 goes to Atari 3.

(MS ------ Atari
1 | +5V -- 7
2 | Xa -- 2
3 | Xb | ---- 1
4 | Ya -- 4
5 | Yb --- 3
6 | Left --- 6
7 | Middle]
8 | Right --- 9
9 | GND -- 8 )

Al Hartman
June 16th, 2016, 08:37 AM
I built one of these from a kit I bought from a guy in the UK that lets me attach a PS/2 Mouse to my Amiga or my ST. Depending on how you jumper it, it will work for both systems. I built one for each since these are so cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PS-2-to-Amiga-mouse-converter-PS-2-to-Atari-ST-mouse-converter-Commodore-/231972611567?hash=item3602a525ef:g:yCAAAOSwKfVXHCE t