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IndirectX9
March 10th, 2016, 03:28 PM
Hello all on the VCF, I recently purchased an IBM 5160 with the Model F keyboard, 1/2 height 5.25" floppy (that doesn't appear to spin up), 3.5" DSDD floppy and a full height HDD, but appears to be a generic hard drive with the IBM cover plate.

I managed to get a monitor and tried the system out, but the Hard drive doesn't appear to be working right, as I tried to use the "C:" in DOS 5.0, but dos gives me an error saying "invalid drive specification". I tried using the chkdsk command, and I get the "error reading fixed disk" and No 1701 errors on boot at all.
I try out the B drive and I get an indication light, but then I get a "general failure reading drive B"

I get the prompt to set up the date and time- a pointer to the dead CMOS Battery, so that may be the reason why I cannot access the hard drive and also why the 5.25 floppy isn't wanting to read the disks..

Any ideas on how to access the CMOS information on the 5160 or any pointers to lead me to the CMOS battery? (I'm not sure if the 5160 has the Dallas RTC clock chip, but if it does, then I have Tezza's guide on how to repair it.

Also: I would like to leave the debug low level format command as a last resort, and I think that I have the full size MFM HDD controller inside if that means anything.

Any help is appreciated,
Thank you
IndirectX9

IndirectX9
March 10th, 2016, 03:30 PM
Whoops! I meant to put this in the Technical Support section!

clh333
March 10th, 2016, 04:01 PM
Hello all on the VCF, I recently purchased an IBM 5160 with the Model F keyboard, 1/2 height 5.25" floppy (that doesn't appear to spin up), 3.5" DSDD floppy and a full height HDD, but appears to be a generic hard drive with the IBM cover plate.

I managed to get a monitor and tried the system out, but the Hard drive doesn't appear to be working right, as I tried to use the "C:" in DOS 5.0, but dos gives me an error saying "invalid drive specification". I tried using the chkdsk command, and I get the "error reading fixed disk" and No 1701 errors on boot at all.
I try out the B drive and I get an indication light, but then I get a "general failure reading drive B"

I get the prompt to set up the date and time- a pointer to the dead CMOS Battery, so that may be the reason why I cannot access the hard drive and also why the 5.25 floppy isn't wanting to read the disks..

Any ideas on how to access the CMOS information on the 5160 or any pointers to lead me to the CMOS battery? (I'm not sure if the 5160 has the Dallas RTC clock chip, but if it does, then I have Tezza's guide on how to repair it.

Also: I would like to leave the debug low level format command as a last resort, and I think that I have the full size MFM HDD controller inside if that means anything.

Any help is appreciated,
Thank you
IndirectX9

I just went through this so I'll try to assist you with some answers, but my first suggestion is to Google "MinusZeroDegrees" and visit the web site; chock-full of information, diagnostics and tips.

There is no battery 'cause there is no clock on the motherboard of the 5160. There may be a clock, and therefore a battery, on a card by AST or DTK, but that will occupy a slot. Plain ol' DOS will prompt you for date and time each time you boot up by default. One reason for doing so is that the system uses the system date to identify any files you save.

The floppy drives are Tandon T-100 2As, most likely, and they are typically fussy. But simple (careful!) cleaning of the rails and heads may improve their ability to read. Also keep in mind that it's not always the fault of the drive; the floppy could be bad, too. If the disk doesn't turn loosely in its sleeve, that could be a problem. If there are scratches on the surface of the disk, that will likely be a problem. If the disk has been stored near a magnet or in a damp location, that could be a problem. But in all likelihood it's the floppy drive.

Before you dive in to the hard disk try to get the machine to boot from a floppy disk. You should see a memory count on the monitor and then some activity from the drive light. If you only have one drive it will be the A: drive, so I'm not sure why you would be seeing a message about "B:". Be aware that there are switches on the motherboard that tell the system about configuration, including how many floppy drives you have. If those are set incorrectly, that could be a problem as well. Refer to MZD for more details.

There may be a tag down by the speaker on the wires. If you can read that it will give you information about when your system was built. Other clues are the writing silk-screened on the motherboard and on the ROM chips, at locations U18 and U19 on the motherboard. Again, MZD knows all.

And if you want to know that it can be done, check out the thread "Identifying Model and Year ..." under Vintage Hardware. Best of luck!

-CH-

clh333
March 10th, 2016, 04:04 PM
Sorry, just re-read your post. Definitely not Tandon T-100s. Cleaning still an option.

-CH-

modem7
March 10th, 2016, 04:06 PM
Welcome to these forums.


Any ideas on how to access the CMOS information on the 5160 or any pointers to lead me to the CMOS battery?
There is no chip on the 5160 motherboard that stores configuration information. SETUP (CMOS SETUP) functionality was not introduced until the IBM 5170.


I try out the B drive and I get an indication light, but then I get a "general failure reading drive B"

... and also why the 5.25 floppy isn't wanting to read the disks..
Could it be that the 5.25" drive is a 360K type and you are using 1.2M disks ?

IndirectX9
March 10th, 2016, 04:16 PM
Welcome to these forums.


There is no chip on the 5160 motherboard that stores configuration information. SETUP (CMOS SETUP) functionality was not introduced until the IBM 5170.



Could it be that the 5.25" drive is a 360K type and you are using 1.2M disks ?

It may be the drive, as I have generic Legacy 5.25 DS,DD diskettes and 3M DS,DD 500Kb diskettes

Later tonight I will open the machine and see the specs of the floppy drive

IndirectX9
March 10th, 2016, 06:26 PM
Okay: got an update, I opened up the unit and tried to format the floppy disks, and lo and behold I have a 360k Drive trying to format a 500k diskette.
So the drive thinks the diskettes are bad. Darn.

Also, I found out that the Hard drive is a SeaGate St 412 and Periodically it makes some odd noises following an Fdisk attempt

I am uncertain as to whether I should open the drive to see what is going on inside or if it is worth a low level format.

Is there a way of having the computer see the installed hardware via a prompt?

T-R-A
March 10th, 2016, 06:45 PM
Also, I found out that the Hard drive is a SeaGate St 412...

I am uncertain as to whether I should open the drive to see what is going on inside...

Probably one of the oldest drives on the planet (and likely bad). Opening it will almost certainly destroy it:

http://redhill.net.au/d/1.php

IndirectX9
March 10th, 2016, 07:11 PM
Probably one of the oldest drives on the planet (and likely bad). Opening it will almost certainly destroy it:

http://redhill.net.au/d/1.php
Odd, because before I bought it off of Ebay, the seller had photos of the system using the hard drive prior to him shipping it.

Is Low level formatting able to save this drive?

IndirectX9
March 10th, 2016, 07:36 PM
Now I did install a serial card after the PC was delivered, and something tells me that it may be the culprit for some strange reason.

Doubt it will change anything though

modem7
March 10th, 2016, 07:58 PM
Is Low level formatting able to save this drive?
If you have nothing to lose, you can give it a shot.


... and I think that I have the full size MFM HDD controller inside if that means anything.
Is it one of the controllers identified at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/ibm_xebec/ibm_xebec.htm)]? If so, which one?

If not, what is the make/model?

krebizfan
March 10th, 2016, 08:10 PM
I suggest holding off on the Low Level Format until some of the other issues of the system are resolved. Just seems strange that problems would show up with both floppy drive and hard drive at same time. Give the system a through inspection, reseat the cards, make sure no card or slot has any metal whiskers causing a short. If you have the equipment, check that the power supply is running correctly.

modem7
March 10th, 2016, 08:22 PM
Okay: got an update, I opened up the unit and tried to format the floppy disks, and lo and behold I have a 360k Drive trying to format a 500k diskette.
So the drive thinks the diskettes are bad. Darn.
You are confusing 'unformatted capacity' with 'formatted capacity. The DS/DD floppies that are used have an unformatted capacity of 500 KB (based on 40 tracks per side, at 48 TPI). When those floppies are formatted by DOS to 9 sectors per track, the resulting capacity (usable capacity) is 360 KB.

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/temp/3/gr6254343hgf90275gbf1437.jpg

IndirectX9
March 10th, 2016, 08:47 PM
I appreciate all the help you are giving me, I will have to take this up tomorrow or on Saturday due to wisdom teeth surgery tomorrow.

After then, I'll upload a photo of the MFM controller for Modem7 and then try the low level format methods.

Using the G=C800:5 hangs DOS 5.0, so I'll try the other method that modem showed me.

Thanks for now

-Brandon

modem7
March 10th, 2016, 08:49 PM
Just seems strange that problems would show up with both floppy drive and hard drive at same time.
Although, we do not know if the B: drive was funtional prior to shipping.


, reseat the cards,
That is a good suggestion, because the hard drive controller card becoming improperly seated in its slot would explain the symptoms.

Symptom: Hard drive working prior to shipping
Symptom: Not working post shipping. XT-class hard disk controller not generating a 1701 error.

modem7
March 10th, 2016, 08:51 PM
Using the G=C800:5 hangs DOS 5.0, so I'll try the other method that modem showed me.
There is no generic low-level format procedure. Even SpeedStor software does not work on some controllers. The required procedure depends on the make/model of controller, so we need to identify that first.

IndirectX9
March 11th, 2016, 09:00 AM
There is no generic low-level format procedure. Even SpeedStor software does not work on some controllers. The required procedure depends on the make/model of controller, so we need to identify that first.

Okay, I found that the controller is an IBM 6135983 on the component side, and is a 6135984 on the solder side.

And also, I have 2 ribbon cables leading to the hard drive and one of them has a twist on the right hand side.

Should the twisted end go on the drive while the other end goes to the controller?

modem7
March 11th, 2016, 01:58 PM
Per the discussion, have you reseated the cards in their slots ?

IndirectX9
March 11th, 2016, 02:46 PM
Per the discussion, have you reseated the cards in their slots ?
Yes, and There was no results.

is the the twisted cable for the hard drive shown in the photo above the correct cable?

Stone
March 11th, 2016, 02:58 PM
is the the twisted cable for the hard drive shown in the photo above the correct cable?It is if you have connected it correctly.

Is the cable keyed? If it is you can't connect it wrong; if it isn't keyed you can.

Also, with a twisted cable the drive needs to be jumpered to the second position. With a straight cable the drive is jumpered to the first position.

modem7
March 11th, 2016, 03:00 PM
Odd, because before I bought it off of Ebay, the seller had photos of the system using the hard drive prior to him shipping it.

is the the twisted cable for the hard drive shown in the photo above the correct cable?
Are you suggesting that the seller changed the cable before shipping the computer?


Okay, I found that the controller is an IBM 6135983 on the component side, and is a 6135984 on the solder side.
So you have the 'variation #2' shown at the web page at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/ibm_xebec/ibm_xebec.htm#variation_2)].

With that controller and a Seagate ST-412 coupled, we expect an untwisted control cable (per diagram at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5160/misc/5160_hard_drive_cabling_single.jpg)]), but only because on the ST-412s that IBM supplied, the 'drive select' links on the shunt block were set at the first 'drive select' position. If you look at the underside of your ST-412, are the links on the shunt block set per the photo at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/misc/st412_tres_shunt.JPG)]?

IndirectX9
March 11th, 2016, 03:42 PM
Are you suggesting that the seller changed the cable before shipping the computer?


So you have the 'variation #2' shown at the web page at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/ibm_xebec/ibm_xebec.htm#variation_2)].

With that controller and a Seagate ST-412 coupled, we expect an untwisted control cable (per diagram at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5160/misc/5160_hard_drive_cabling_single.jpg)]), but only because on the ST-412s that IBM supplied, the 'drive select' links on the shunt block were set at the first 'drive select' position. If you look at the underside of your ST-412, are the links on the shunt block set per the photo at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/misc/st412_tres_shunt.JPG)]?

yep, the shunts have the same configuation.

I reseated the cable for the stepper motor on the control ST 412 board,

I'll re assemble the machine and will boot and will see what happens.

modem7
March 11th, 2016, 04:01 PM
With that controller and a Seagate ST-412 coupled, we expect an untwisted control cable (per diagram at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5160/misc/5160_hard_drive_cabling_single.jpg)]), but only because on the ST-412s that IBM supplied, the 'drive select' links on the shunt block were set at the first 'drive select' position. If you look at the underside of your ST-412, are the links on the shunt block set per the photo at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/misc/st412_tres_shunt.JPG)]?

yep, the shunts have the same configuation.
So, there is a problem just there. For the shunt configuration that I pointed to (first drive-select position set), an untwisted (AKA 'flat', AKA 'straight-through') control cable is required.

Stone
March 11th, 2016, 04:05 PM
yep, the shunts have the same configuation.Then you should go back and reread this post:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?51712-Ebay-bought-5160-HDD-issues&p=405800#post405800

modem7
March 11th, 2016, 05:18 PM
And there is something else that is not making sense - the lack of a 1701 error.

If we go with the hypothesis that the seller changed the control cable before shipping, from an untwisted one to a twisted one, the Xebec controller should be generating a 1701 error. How do I know for sure? Because I just now made such a cable change on my functional 5160 with IBM/Xebec controller (variation #2) and ST-412.

But it occurs to me that the OP might not be waiting long enough for the error to appear:
1. 5160 motherboard POST counts up to 640 KB of RAM
2. 30 seconds of inactivity (except for blinking cursor) <---- some people may power off computer during this period, thinking that it has hung
3. IBM/Xebec controller's BIOS ROM displays '1701'

Stone
March 11th, 2016, 07:25 PM
Maybe the controller is totally hosed and unable to do anything including generate an error.

modem7
March 11th, 2016, 08:34 PM
Maybe the controller is totally hosed and unable to do anything including generate an error.
Before going down that investigative path, let's wait to hear from the OP. Maybe they were not waiting long enough for the 1701.

modem7
March 11th, 2016, 08:55 PM
Something that I should have thought of earlier:

A rare form of twisted control cable is a 'double twisted' one.
It is the bottom cable in the diagram at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/images4/double_twist_cable.jpg)].
I have never seen one myself, but I know that they exist.
If your control cable is one of these double twisted ones, then having the ST-412 connected to its end connector is equivalent to using an untwisted cable.

Is it a 'double twisted' cable ?

clh333
March 12th, 2016, 02:49 AM
Odd, because before I bought it off of Ebay, the seller had photos of the system using the hard drive prior to him shipping it.

Is Low level formatting able to save this drive?

I had the same experience with a Seagate ST225 I bought from an eBay reseller. The drive was shipped formatted and functioning, but by the time it arrive it needed to be low-level formatted, formatted by DOS and have the OS installed once again.

I don't know this to be true but I suspect the carrier, e.g. Postal Service in my case, may in the process of scanning it for who-knows-what have affected its disk's magnetic properties. If that's the case, a low-level format may be your first and best alternative. There may be a format utility routine in the controller ROM. Check here (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/60089) for Microsoft article on the subject.

-CH-

Stone
March 12th, 2016, 03:10 AM
FWIW, OP never indicated (even after being requested) whether the cables are keyed or not. Because if they're not, they might be connected backasswards. :-)

IndirectX9
March 12th, 2016, 07:42 AM
FWIW, OP never indicated (even after being requested) whether the cables are keyed or not. Because if they're not, they might be connected backasswards. :-)

Sorry for not filling you guys in, but the cables ARE KEYED, and they are inserted the correct way; I connected the straight cable to the HDD like modem7 said.

Unfortunately, I tried to low level format via minuszerodegrees Debug and Speedstor methods, and with speedstor, the drive cannot access the partition table, and if I were to use Fdisk on the boot diskette, fdisk will give me an "error reading fixed drive". I did do all of the tests for the drive via speedstor and there were a lot of defects, most likely due to the seller failing to park the heads before shipping and the shipping carrier having the boxes knocked about.

I will try the advanced diagnostics and if that cannot get the HDD working, then I will have to call it quits with that drive and get a refund from the ebay seller.

I thank all of you for your help and for being patient with me and my inexperience with handling old computers, I know I would've gotten frustrated with myself!
I look forward to learning more in this community!

-Brandon

Stone
March 12th, 2016, 08:23 AM
Unfortunately, I tried to low level format via minuszerodegrees Debug and Speedstor methods, and with speedstor, the drive cannot access the partition table,...SpeedStor doesn't access the partition table during a LLF. Neither does any other LLF method. The partition table can *only* be created **after** a successful LLF.

IndirectX9
March 12th, 2016, 08:25 AM
SpeedStor doesn't access the partition table during a LLF. Neither does any other LLF method. The partition table can *only* be created **after** a successful LLF.

After I used Fdisk after a LLF from both methods I used earlier, Fdisk will still give me an error reading fixed disk.

Stone
March 12th, 2016, 09:21 AM
Then the disk is likely hosed. Not that unusual with MFM drives. They're old, tired and looking to become doorstops. :-)

IndirectX9
March 12th, 2016, 09:58 AM
Then the disk is likely hosed. Not that unusual with MFM drives. They're old, tired and looking to become doorstops. :-)

I'm not surprised that the drive is no longer working either, since it is one of the older ones for the XT, heck I might just save the controller and disk and maybe look up a disk drive emulator for the hard drive.

modem7
March 12th, 2016, 12:05 PM
The ST-412 has a stepper flag (AKA damper, arm, interrupter). During the low-level formatting, did you see that slowly move from one extreme to the other?

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/ibm_xebec/st412_cyl_0.jpg

modem7
March 12th, 2016, 12:09 PM
... heck I might just save the controller and disk and maybe look up a disk drive emulator for the hard drive.
In the 'Hard disk drive' section of the web page at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5150/problems/5150_known_problems_issues.htm)], take a look at the 'Some possible solutions' links.

IndirectX9
March 22nd, 2016, 01:55 PM
Well I have good news!

Turns out the HDD had a pin touching a resistor, and by moving that pin, I was able to format and create a partition!

So now I need to figure out how to put DOS on the Hard disk via 3.5 floppy.

Any pointers to that is greatly appreciated!

Thank you
-Brandon

Stone
March 22nd, 2016, 02:53 PM
Whatever floppy you use it's the same. Boot from the DOS floppy. Type 'SYS C:', then copy all the remaining DOS files to the HD.

Of course, if you have an install set of DOS disks, after you boot, type 'setup' and follow the instructions.

IndirectX9
March 22nd, 2016, 04:40 PM
Whatever floppy you use it's the same. Boot from the DOS floppy. Type 'SYS C:', then copy all the remaining DOS files to the HD.

Of course, if you have an install set of DOS disks, after you boot, type 'setup' and follow the instructions.

Problem is, I only have the MS DOS 5 Boot disk, so I cannot use the SYS C: command, and If I use WinImage, the image is incompatible with my USB Floppy. I have no Idea what I need to do next, I do have a windows 2000 equipped laptop with a built in floppy if that means anything.
Plus, I am using the standard 360 kilobyte IBM floppy controller, so if I were to use a HD 720k diskette, then I get a general failure error.

Is there anyway I can fool the floppy into formatting a 720k DSDD from a 720k HD?

Stone
March 22nd, 2016, 05:16 PM
SYS.COM should be on the boot disk.

IndirectX9
March 22nd, 2016, 05:33 PM
SYS.COM should be on the boot disk.

I copied SYS.com to the boot floppy (it wasn't an official DOS boot diskette) and if I run SYS C: I get a memory Allocation error and the system cannot load COMMAND, so the system is halted.

Stone
March 22nd, 2016, 06:27 PM
Could be a bad memory chip. Try running some programs, especially one that unloads/reloads the transient part of COMMAND.COM to see if that generates the same or a similar error.

Alternatively, you could load a second or third COMMAND.COM, which would occupy a different physical memory space and then run SYS.COM. If this method is successful it would point to a bad area in RAM as the culprit.

IndirectX9
March 22nd, 2016, 06:57 PM
Could be a bad memory chip. Try running some programs, especially one that unloads/reloads the transient part of COMMAND.COM to see if that generates the same or a similar error.

Alternatively, you could load a second or third COMMAND.COM, which would occupy a different physical memory space and then run SYS.COM. If this method is successful it would point to a bad area in RAM as the culprit.

Okay, so I ran another command from a different floppy and this time the system doesn't hang, but instead running SYS C: says "cannot start command.com, Exiting"; Still getting a memory allocation error, so I will try copying SYS to B: and placing the floppy with a different command in A:

UPDATE: Running SYS C: still throws a memory Allocation error, and cannot start command.com

modem7
March 22nd, 2016, 08:22 PM
How about trying:

1. Start with a 'clean slate' by redoing the low-level format.
2. Use the 'STEP 2' at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5170/setup/5170_gsetup_720.htm)] to create a bootable fake-720K diskette of IBM DOS 3.3 (has FDISK and FORMAT on it)
3. Boot from that diskette.
4. Execute the procedure at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/hdd/hdd_fdisk_format_dos33.htm)].

Stone
March 23rd, 2016, 02:33 AM
Okay, so I ran another command from a different floppy and this time the system doesn't hang, but instead running SYS C: says "cannot start command.com, Exiting"; Still getting a memory allocation error, so I will try copying SYS to B: and placing the floppy with a different command in A:

UPDATE: Running SYS C: still throws a memory Allocation error, and cannot start command.comThat's not what I meant. :-)

FROM THE DOS PROMPT type command and press enter. Then, just to be safe, do it again. Now you are running three command shells, one stacked on top of another. Now try SYS C:.

IndirectX9
March 23rd, 2016, 07:19 AM
That's not what I meant. :-)

FROM THE DOS PROMPT type command and press enter. Then, just to be safe, do it again. Now you are running three command shells, one stacked on top of another. Now try SYS C:.

I may try creating another DOS 5 boot diskette with SYS.com and a different command interpreter and see what happens.

IndirectX9
March 23rd, 2016, 02:29 PM
Still gives a memory allocation error and fails to load command; could it be conflicting hardware?

Here is the installed hardware from left to right (with the drives facing you)

CGA 80 Full Length card (slot 8?)
64-256k Memory Expansion card
Full Length MFM HDD Controller
Standard IBM Floppy drive controller
Serial/Parallel card
(EMPTY)
(EMPTY)
(EMPTY)

Stone
March 23rd, 2016, 02:51 PM
But you still haven't tried loading three command shells, have you?

IndirectX9
March 23rd, 2016, 03:06 PM
But you still haven't tried loading three command shells, have you?

I have actually, It still cannot start Command and exits out of SYS

bhtooefr
March 23rd, 2016, 04:12 PM
How much RAM does it detect when starting the machine?

When you boot DOS 5, what do you get when typing MEM?

IndirectX9
March 23rd, 2016, 04:17 PM
On startup, the System Memorycount goes to 448 KB before POST beeps, and I don't have a memory test file on my DOS 5 floppy (It isn't an official one)

Stone
March 23rd, 2016, 04:20 PM
448 doesn't sound right.

CHKDSK will reveal the memory values as well as MEM.

IndirectX9
March 23rd, 2016, 04:50 PM
Welp I made the rookie mistake of writing data to DSDD Diskette on a HD drive, so now I have no way of booting the system...
Anyone got any ideas as to what I need to do in order to get the system booting off the floppy?

bobba84
March 23rd, 2016, 08:09 PM
Welp I made the rookie mistake of writing data to DSDD Diskette on a HD drive

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think this mattered on 3.5" media? They are both 80 track, aren't they?

Bobby.

modem7
March 23rd, 2016, 11:33 PM
Anyone got any ideas as to what I need to do in order to get the system booting off the floppy?
See post #45

IndirectX9
March 24th, 2016, 06:09 PM
Good news everyone!

I managed to take a 3.5" floppy from a SONY VAIO computer in my garage and hook it up to an HP running win vista. From there, WinImage worked after formatting a floppy under /T:80 /N:9 and then writing to it via WinImage. After that I ended up installing DOS 5.0 onto the XT and it now seems to be working for the most part.
Now I need to figure the 448k memory problem and the 64-256k not appearing?

Anyways, BIG thank you to Stone, modem7 and all others that had the patience to help a newbie like me!

Thank you all!
-Brandon

Stone
March 24th, 2016, 06:16 PM
The 448K problem could be as easy as the configuration switches on the memory card.

Smack2k
March 25th, 2016, 03:41 AM
Well I have good news!

Turns out the HDD had a pin touching a resistor, and by moving that pin, I was able to format and create a partition!

So now I need to figure out how to put DOS on the Hard disk via 3.5 floppy.

Any pointers to that is greatly appreciated!

Thank you
-Brandon

Sorry to go back to an earlier post here, but I had been dealing with the same issues you were with an XT Hard Drive, no 1701 error, able to LLF but FDSISK gave an error. I had given up the drive that was dead and packed it back up. Seeing this post, I pulled it out and I also had one of the pins on the bottom bent and lying on a resistor. I am thinking of taking the XT apart (it currently has 2 floppy drives and a compact flash HDD in it) and trying the HDD again, but wanted to ask first why would that pin have caused that issue? Just curious before I go through the effort of trying this drive one more time..

modem7
March 25th, 2016, 03:47 PM
... but I had been dealing with the same issues you were with an XT Hard Drive, no 1701 error, ...
Per post #25, the OP may not have been waiting long enough for the 1701 to appear. We do not know, because the OP did not comment on post #25.

As for your "no 1701 error", it could have been the same. The authors of the BIOS ROM on the XT-class hard disk controller choose what to display and when. There could be, say, a two minute timeout on your particular make/model of XT-class hard disk controller.


... able to LLF but FDSISK gave an error.
Some LLF format procedures are 'dumb' - no verification done. For those, I could disconnect the data cable from the drive, then watch the LLF procedure run to completion without an error being shown. So, no LLF actually done.


Seeing this post, I pulled it out and I also had one of the pins on the bottom bent and lying on a resistor.
Out of curiosity, was that "pin" one of the many gold plated test point 'posts' ? I have put a photo of three of them at [here (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/temp/3/kyh83qt6ynf817485bv1.jpg)].

Smack2k
March 25th, 2016, 05:53 PM
Yes, that is the same pin. In a message to the OP, he stated that the same pins were his issue...at least from the way he described it.

Does that make a difference?

modem7
March 25th, 2016, 06:07 PM
Yes, that is the same pin. In a message to the OP, he stated that the same pins were his issue...at least from the way he described it.
Does that make a difference?
No, but when others present with what appears to be a faulty ST-412 drive, when we get them to do a visual inspection of the drive, we direct special attention to the posts (based on history).

Smack2k
March 25th, 2016, 06:09 PM
So its worth a test and hook it up again to give it a shot? I wasnt sure if I should dig it back out and take apart the XT again...but if its worth a shot, I am in.

modem7
March 25th, 2016, 06:11 PM
So its worth a test and hook it up again to give it a shot?
Yes, definitely. Hopefully, no damage was done.

Smack2k
March 26th, 2016, 02:04 PM
Same issues with the pin adjusted and all other pins checked and not touching....machine boots, no 1701 error, shows a quick light on the drive, boots to floppy, light on drive comes on again, once booted to floppy (DOS), run FDISK 'Error .... Fixed Disk"

OP got lucky, I didnt....

SomeGuy
March 26th, 2016, 03:08 PM
If you are getting past the 1701 issue, I wouldn't give up on it quite yet. Have you tried running SpeedStor?

If you try running Norton Utilities, can you access any of the drive in "physical sector mode" (it need not be FDISKed or DOS formatted, only LLFed to do that) Off hand, the only case I can think of where a drive would look like it should work, but not actually work is if there were damage only on the MBR (first) sector. But there are things that can trip up FDISK.

Smack2k
March 26th, 2016, 06:24 PM
I ran SpeedStor on it and got a Drive is unusable error when trying some things, but I dont fully understand how to use it...I know when I ran some of the diags on it, it was kicking back a bunch of bad sector errors..but again, i dont fully understand that software....but it did give the Drive is Unusable error I think when I tried to format it.

Is there a way to get past or fix that first sector?

SomeGuy
March 26th, 2016, 07:11 PM
If a fresh LLF did not fix it, then probably not.

But if it were me, I would still take a look at it with the Norton Utilities disk editor in "physical disk" mode. The specific things I would look at:
Does Norton list the drive at all in that mode? If not would indicate a BIOS issue. (It is probably ok if it calls it something other than "drive C". Like I said, only a LLF is needed for this test)
Does reading the first sector return an error?
Do *ANY* sectors read without error? - If absolutely none are readable, then it might actually be a controller problem instead.

Smack2k
March 27th, 2016, 04:14 AM
Used two different controllers and the exact same issue on both..

I havent done a fresh LLF since I fixed the pin issue on the bottom, I just tried a regular format since the drive was LLF already (but that was before I found the pin touching)... didnt know I should try another LLF...I can give that a shot as well....