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MarsMan2020
June 4th, 2016, 01:21 PM
I have a Vector MZ with only one working floppy drive, and a somewhat embarrassing basic CP/M question.

Is it possible to format a disk in the same drive you're running off of, and copy files between disks in the same drive, in CP/M 2.2?

per
June 4th, 2016, 01:48 PM
Depends on the program, I would say yes. I guess a lot of formatters will problably prompt the user to insert a disk before doing the formatting, and if it doesn't work with PIP, then I do know about CP/M compatible file-copy programs that is capable of copying between two disks on one drive.

To be safe, you can always put a strip of black tape over the write-protection hole before trying.

Stone
June 4th, 2016, 02:03 PM
I don't know about CP/M but for sure DOS has a phantom floppy feature so with only one floppy you have two virtual drives, normally A: and B:.

Chuck(G)
June 4th, 2016, 10:36 PM
You can do it in CP/M, using DDT and SAVE, but you'll go nuts after awhile, as there isn't enough memory available to make it convenient.

krebizfan
June 4th, 2016, 10:58 PM
One utility to copy between 2 disks on a system with one drive can be found at http://www.cirsovius.de/CPM/Projekte/Artikel/Datei/Single/Single.html

It will be like molasses though as you could have dozens of swaps with some of the higher capacity disks.

Chuck(G)
June 4th, 2016, 11:41 PM
I'm sure that there are a few utilities to do this in the SIMTEL or CPMUG collection (http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/).

But the problem is that with only one drive, the only temporary storage available is RAM. If you've got some bank-switched stuff and can use it as a RAMdisk, things speed up considerably.

MicrocomputerSolutions
June 5th, 2016, 12:12 AM
Some versions of CPM have a utility for copying copying or transferring files using a single drive and disk swapping.

If you have a big enough Solid State Disk/Compupro MDrive you can PIP or Copy to the Solid State Disk/MDrive, then out to the single floppy drive in a single operation.

Compupro offered the MDrive board in 512K and 2Mb sizes (with software support for CPM-80, CPM86, CPM 8/16, MPM, and CDOS), and you could run up to (8) boards in the System. I run a single 2Mb MDrive board in my Compupro System configured as a 512K Hard Drive Cache, and 1.5Mb MDrive.

Stone
June 5th, 2016, 03:07 AM
C'mon, play nice and go back and edit this so we'll know what number you really meant.


...and you could run up to (8) boards in the System...

It's really a good idea to proofread your posts immediately after posting them so you can catch this kind of stuff.

Editing typos is simple, easy, only takes a few seconds and provides a great service to the rest of us who are reading these posts and hoping to learn something.

MicrocomputerSolutions
June 5th, 2016, 09:45 AM
C'mon, play nice and go back and edit this so we'll know what number you really meant.



It's really a good idea to proofread your posts immediately after posting them so you can catch this kind of stuff.

Editing typos is simple, easy, only takes a few seconds and provides a great service to the rest of us who are reading these posts and hoping to learn something.



That's really strange. On my system, the txt displays as I wrote it: "...and you could run up to (8) boards in the System...".

Let's try writing out the number: "... and you could run up to (eight) boards in the System...".
.
Only shows up as an emoticon for the number when posted on the website here. It displays correctly on my screen. Even when I go into edit mode, the txt shows correctly. How is someone suppose to correct a type that does not show up on the screen until after posting?

Must be something about the keystroke sequence.

Stone
June 5th, 2016, 10:06 AM
The sequence ( 8 ) without the included spaces produces this..... (8) animal. :-)

But if you include spaces within the parenthesis it can't be interpreted as anything but (, 8 and ).

I don't know how the syntax gets what it is getting -- I only know that the included spaces preclude this from occurring.

FWIW, the text that shows up correctly on your screen doesn't on my screen and neither does it show correctly in edit mode on my screen.

SomeGuy
June 5th, 2016, 10:31 AM
The forum software automatically converts certain ASCII smilies in to graphics smilies.

When you post using the advanced reply form, there is a check box at the bottom labeled "Disable smilies in text". If you know you have code that will get converted, you can check that.

8) :p :) :D

Chuck(G)
June 5th, 2016, 10:45 AM
If you reply using the "Go advanced" button, not only do you get to disable emoticon interpretation, but you get to preview your message as well.

mgarlanger
June 5th, 2016, 09:40 PM
Heath's version of CP/M handled a single drive system well. Once the number of drives is configured, you could use B: and C: and the system will prompt you to "Put disk B: in drive A and press return"

Chuck(G)
June 5th, 2016, 10:26 PM
Yup, you can, in fact, code your CBIOS that way with "phantom" drives. Easy to get confused--and doesn't handle the issue of limited memory for a buffer.

MarsMan2020
June 7th, 2016, 07:30 AM
Well, here's what I found on my Vector MZ:
-The VG-provided 'FORMAT' utility seemed to hang when I tried to tell it to format A:. It did give me an opportunity to insert the desired floppy to format, but nothing happened after that.
-The VG-provided 'BACKUP' utility allowed me to copy my existing CP/M disk, but it took about 15-20 swaps back and forth to get the data moved over. I was able to delete a bunch of stuff from the original images that I didn't need and create a disk to use for what I'm trying to get done.

Overall it probably would have been faster to transfer a new image over from my modern PC with Mike Deramp's PC2FLOP utility vs playing the floppy shuffle.

mgarlanger
June 7th, 2016, 07:24 PM
Yup, you can, in fact, code your CBIOS that way with "phantom" drives. Easy to get confused--and doesn't handle the issue of limited memory for a buffer.

Yes, you could get confused, but it worked well on the Heath H89, since the hard-sectored disks only had about 90K of usable space. With a 64k system, copying an entire disk was just a few swaps.

Chuck(G)
June 7th, 2016, 08:49 PM
Same as the original O1, then--about 90K on a floppy.

krebizfan
June 7th, 2016, 09:46 PM
The Vector MZ has disks formatted to store about 300k each.

MikeS
June 8th, 2016, 05:14 PM
Well, here's what I found on my Vector MZ:
-The VG-provided 'FORMAT' utility seemed to hang when I tried to tell it to format A:. It did give me an opportunity to insert the desired floppy to format, but nothing happened after that.
-The VG-provided 'BACKUP' utility allowed me to copy my existing CP/M disk, but it took about 15-20 swaps back and forth to get the data moved over. I was able to delete a bunch of stuff from the original images that I didn't need and create a disk to use for what I'm trying to get done.

Overall it probably would have been faster to transfer a new image over from my modern PC with Mike Deramp's PC2FLOP utility vs playing the floppy shuffle.

What's wrong with the bad drive? Might not be too hard to fix.

FWIW, I've used a standard 5.25HD drive as the second drive in my MZs; I can't boot from it for some reason and of course you can't read it with the Micropolis drive (and vice versa) but it works well as a data disk (and copying a disk is certainly faster than using a single drive even though you have to do it twice).

MarsMan2020
June 9th, 2016, 06:45 AM
What's wrong with the bad drive? Might not be too hard to fix.

FWIW, I've used a standard 5.25HD drive as the second drive in my MZs; I can't boot from it for some reason and of course you can't read it with the Micropolis drive (and vice versa) but it works well as a data disk (and copying a disk is certainly faster than using a single drive even though you have to do it twice).

Something is up with the stepper motor, it does not spin as freely as the working drive with the belt removed & won't spin up the drive with the belt on.

Chuck(G)
June 9th, 2016, 08:09 AM
Do you perhaps mean the "spindle motor"?

MicrocomputerSolutions
June 9th, 2016, 01:16 PM
Something is up with the stepper motor, it does not spin as freely as the working drive with the belt removed & won't spin up the drive with the belt on.

I'm not really familiar with the Vector MZ, but a floppy drive is a floppy drive. Actually 8" floppy disks are floppies. 5.25" disks are technically mini-floppies.

The stepper motor is usually what the motor that moves the head assembly is called. The motor that powers the spindle that turns the disk is usually referred to as the spindle motor.

You have Tandon full height 5.25 mini-floppy disk drives, Right? Is that a TM-100-2 (40-track, double-sided) drive? This was a very common drive at one time (used by IBM in the original IBM PC, and by Radio Shack in the Model I and Model III).

And you say that one is not working and it appears to be related to the spindle motor, which is not coming up to speed with a disk inserted (motor does not appear to turn as freely as it should with the belt removed), I do I have that right so far?

Did you verify that the motor is not coming up to speed by checking the speed strobe label on the bottom of the spindle pulley (shine a fluorescent light on it)? Did you try adjusting the speed by turning the control/trimmer on the speed control board (the small board stuck on the rear of the drive chassis).

On the Tandon 5.25 full height drives, the spindle motor is one of the more reliable parts. It should spin freely, if you spin the motor pulley a spin with your fingers. While speed control circuit board is usually what fails in the spindle drive group, motors do sometimes fail (shaft is usually harder to turn or seized on a failed spindle motor).

Fortunately, the are lots of dead Tandons full height 5.25" drives floating around out there that you can scavenge the spindle motor off, and the motors are really easy to remove and replace. Many of the parts on the Tandon TM-100 Series (MT-100-1, 100-2, 100-3, and 100-4) full height drives are interchangeable. Changing the spindle motor does not require a visit to the shop for head alignment afterwards. Just look for a donor drive that connects the motor (same way that your drive does) to the speed control board (there are a couple of different designs for the speed control boards and they use different connectors). Cut the cable ties holding the wires in a bundle, R & R the screws that hold the motor in place, and swap the motor. Use the better belt from the two drives when you put the thing back together. After assembly, verify motor speed using the strobe label on the bottom of the drive and adjust as necessary on the speed board.

MarsMan2020
June 9th, 2016, 07:52 PM
Do you perhaps mean the "spindle motor"?

Yes, it's the spindle motor.

I have these Micropolis drives - ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/micropolis/102001A_Micropolis_1015_1016_Maintenance_Manual_De c79.pdf - the motor that doesn't rotate smoothly is listed as the 'drive motor' on page 6-4

Also, the foam pad on the head load arm needs to be replaced.

Chuck(G)
June 9th, 2016, 08:27 PM
I've got several of the 1016 drives. 100 tpi (not 96) drives all (mine are double-sided). The seek time is pretty slow--about 30 msec. track-to-track, since these drives use a leadscrew positioner with something like 4 steps per cylinder. Very accurate, but Micropolis was making precision leadscrew positioner floppies when the rest of the world had moved to much sloppier positioning. Slow 8" drives operate at better than 15 msec. track-to-track. And note the head-load/settle time--75 msec.!

The spindle motor is a simple DC brushed job, so failing mechanical damage, you may be able to free things up by re-oiling the bearings with some WD-40 or better, a light oil. The shaft should free up eventually, assuming that rust hasn't invaded the innards.

Whatever, if you've got the 100 tpi drives, don't toss them--Micropolis drives were the best of their day and quite expensive. 100 tpi floppy drives are pretty rare. If you've got the 48 tpi version, save it for parts--but for the positioner leadscrew, most of the rest of the same parts were used on the 100 tpi versions.

And pay attention to the connector pinout. Close, but not exactly the Shugart standard. For example, DS4 is on pin 34, while READY is pin 6.

MarsMan2020
June 10th, 2016, 07:13 AM
I've got several of the 1016 drives. 100 tpi (not 96) drives all (mine are double-sided). The seek time is pretty slow--about 30 msec. track-to-track, since these drives use a leadscrew positioner with something like 4 steps per cylinder. Very accurate, but Micropolis was making precision leadscrew positioner floppies when the rest of the world had moved to much sloppier positioning. Slow 8" drives operate at better than 15 msec. track-to-track. And note the head-load/settle time--75 msec.!

The spindle motor is a simple DC brushed job, so failing mechanical damage, you may be able to free things up by re-oiling the bearings with some WD-40 or better, a light oil. The shaft should free up eventually, assuming that rust hasn't invaded the innards.

Whatever, if you've got the 100 tpi drives, don't toss them--Micropolis drives were the best of their day and quite expensive. 100 tpi floppy drives are pretty rare. If you've got the 48 tpi version, save it for parts--but for the positioner leadscrew, most of the rest of the same parts were used on the 100 tpi versions.

And pay attention to the connector pinout. Close, but not exactly the Shugart standard. For example, DS4 is on pin 34, while READY is pin 6.

They are indeed the 100 TPI version.