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dmemphis
October 12th, 2016, 09:13 AM
Has anyone used the the K10GRLD reinstall disks from
http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/disks/kaypro/

I made a set using Teledisk 216.
Disks 1-6 work fine reloading in the K10. Disks 7, 8, 9 don't, and I gave up trying further ones.
I tried other floppies. Doesn't seem to be the floppy media at fault.
Experimenting, I tried converting disk 7 to IMD, IMD complains about invalid track 40, and refuses to
gives errors writing it to disk.

Damaged td0 files?
Might a different version of teledisk handle them correctly?

ldkraemer
October 12th, 2016, 11:33 AM
When I copied the K10HALD7.TD0 and K10HALD8.TD0 to my subdirectory and executed TD02IMD K10HALD7.TDO (TD02IMD K10HALD7.TD0 > K10HALD7.TXT)
I got this message: (K10HALD7.TXT)
TD 1.5 5.25 LD MFM S-step, 2 sides 24/10/2003 18:06:46
Kaypro 10
Autoload Diskette #7
dBase II Lessons
Ashton-Tate
80 tracks, 800 sectors converted.

and for TD02IMD K10HALD8.TD0 I got:
TD 1.5 5.25 LD MFM S-step, 2 sides 24/10/2003 19:11:55
Kaypro 10
Autoload Diskette #8
dBase II System
Ashton-Tate
80 tracks, 800 sectors converted.

So, you are going to have to use a 80 Track Floppy to get these TD0 files imaged.

You could probably use a 3.5" floppy set for 720K and image them to this type floppy.

That is why you are having trouble.




If you convert the .TD0 files to .IMD with the program TD02IMD (TD02IMD FILENAME.TD0) you will get FILENAME.IMD
Now you just need cpmtools (binary for windows) and the Kaypro definitions to access the files in the .IMD image.

If you want to work with the .RAW file versus an .IMD file, either of these two commands will create a .RAW file.

USE SAMDISK:
samdisk test.imd test.raw

USE IMDU:
IMDU file.imd file.raw /E /B

Now, you can just use cpmtools to access the files in the .RAW image.

man cpmls
man cpmcp

GET A DIR:
cpmls -f kay4 -d O1CPMS.RAW

COPY FILE FROM IMAGE:
cpmcp -f kay4 O1CPMS.RAW 0:*.COM /home/larry/osb1

COPY FILE TO IMAGE:
cpmcp -f kay4 O1CPMS.RAW README.TXT 0:README.TXT
(where the first README.TXT is in the cpmtools directory, and the last README.TXT will be on the .RAW Image for User 0)

REMOVE A FILE FROM IMAGE:
cpmrm -f kay4 O1CPMS.RAW README.TXT




IMageDisk Analyzer 1.18 / Mar 12 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD MFM S-step, 2 sides 24/10/2003 18:06:46

Kaypro 10

Autoload Diskette #7

dBase II Lessons

Ashton-Tate

Required cylinders: 40
Required heads : 2
Data rate : 250kbps
Est. maximum track: 6055 bytes

Possible drives/options to write K10HALD7.IMD :

5.25" DD 40-track
Double-step: OFF

5.25" QD 80-track
Double-step: ON

5.25" HD 80-track
Double-step: ON
250 kbps -> 300 kbps

3.5" DD 80-track NOTE: *1
Double-step: OFF

3.5" HD 80-track NOTE: *1
Double-step: OFF

*1 40 track image will use only first 1/2 of 80-track drive.


Larry

dmemphis
October 12th, 2016, 01:35 PM
Thank you that sheds some light, Larry, particularly on the HALD disks.
I'm confused though, why the HALD disks are 80 tracks, when the Kaypro 10 has DSDD drive.
Does this mean folks replaced the DSDD drive with an 80 drive and made their own disks, which then
got archived? That would mean to use the HALD disks I have to replace the Kaypro 10 drive, yes?

So I had retreated from the HALD set to the 15 disk DSDD GRLD set, and that's the set that I particularly had trouble with
disks from #7 onward. I'll try to reproduce your analysis of the HALD disks on the GRLD disks and see what I learn.
Could it be that writing the archive to media requires a 390K drive instead of the 360K IBM drive...

I appreciate the heads up on how to use the tools that you elaborated on.

dmemphis
October 12th, 2016, 04:00 PM
Using a 1.2 HD drive, 80 tracks, didn't help. Still could not make a K10GRLD7 or K10HALD1 disk go through without errors.
Somethings messed up. The only think I know to try now is to make the GRLD disks using the Kaypro drive.
Which is a pain cause I have to pull it again.
But that's the only thing that makes sense, it seems to me the original archiver worked from Kaypro diskettes
presumably makes specifically for the 390K drive... so the archives then, its follows, would have to go
back to 390K drive. Unless, of course, this is wrong and Kaypro mass produced diskettes on 360K drive equipment.
Dang I with the original owner had the original disks to pass on to me *ARGH*.

ldkraemer
October 12th, 2016, 05:48 PM
Is your Kaypro Floppy, 40 Track and Double sided (2 Heads)? That should work. You don't need a
80 Track Drive, just 80 tracks total.

Just be sure to set the proper settings in Imagedisk for heads, and double/single step.

Tomorrow morning I'll have a look at the K10GRLD{7..x} images to see what they say.

Maybe I can try to write an image and see if I can get it to work correctly.


Larry

ldkraemer
October 12th, 2016, 06:24 PM
Well, The directories look sane for the Floppy's. I'll have to extract the files so you can see if they function properly.

IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD FM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 19:52:32

K10G reload disk 7

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps SD 10x512
40/0 250 kbps SD 2x128
81 tracks(41/40), 802 sectors (387 Compressed)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLD7.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

5:
basiclib.rel
candr-s.com
dplay.bas
fac.bas
graphics.bas
graphics.doc
overlayb.com
sbasic.com
userlib.rel
ws.com
wsmsgs.ovr
wsovly1.ovr
xamn.bas


IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD MFM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 19:47:30

K10G reload disk 8

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps DD 10x512
80 tracks(40/40), 800 sectors (695 Compressed)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLD8.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

6:
st.com
stdow.com


IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD FM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 19:41:14

K10G reload disk 9

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps SD 10x512
40/0 250 kbps SD 2x128
81 tracks(41/40), 802 sectors (225 Compressed)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLD9.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

7:
batch.ovr
clientsr.def
clientsr.dta
clientsr.ndx
customer.dta
customer.ndx
datastar.com
formgen.com
formsort.com
formsort.ovr
invce.def
invce.dta
invce.ndx
okstates.dta
okstates.ndx
order.def
payments.def
payments.dta
payments.ndx
productr.def
productr.dta
productr.ndx
products.dta
products.ndx
puteof.com
redit.com
remsgs.ovr
report.com
rgen.com
rinstall.com
rsmsgs.ovr
staff.def
staff.dta
staff.ndx


IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD MFM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 19:35:35

K10G reload disk 10

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps DD 10x512
40/0 250 kbps DD 1x512
84 tracks(42/42), 804 sectors (621 Compressed)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLDA.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

8:
cs.com
cs.ov1
cs.ov2
cs.ovr
csdump.com
csdump.ovr
csmask.msk
demo.csd
termcap.sys


IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD MFM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 19:30:12

K10G reload disk 11

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps DD 10x512
40/0 250 kbps DD 1x512
84 tracks(42/42), 804 sectors (443 Compressed)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLDB.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

9:
checkc.cmd
checkc1.cmd
checks.cmd
clear@.cmd
client.dbf
clientls.cmd
compute.dbf
compute.frm
compute1.dbf
dbase.com
dbaseovr.com
deptmast.dbf
deptmast.frm
emp8.dbf
empbak.dbf
empbak1.dbf
empmast.dbf
empmast.frm
empmastr.frm
empmfrm.frm
empmsrt.dbf
empname.dbf
empname.frm
empnoind.ndx
emptbak.dbf
emptrans.dbf
emptsrt.dbf
jjfrm.frm
jobhfrm.frm
jobhist.dbf
joinjob.dbf
joinpay1.dbf
joinpay2.dbf
joinpay3.dbf
lessons.cmd
maste.dbf
nameaddr.dbf
nameind.ndx
regfrm.frm


IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD MFM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 19:21:03

K10G reload disk 12

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps DD 10x512
40/0 250 kbps DD 1x512
84 tracks(42/42), 804 sectors (429 Compressed, 2 Bad)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLDC.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

9:
t1rdbf.dbf
taxmast.dbf
taxmast.frm
teach1.cmd
teach10.cmd
teach11.cmd
teach1r.cmd
teach1r1.cmd
teach1s.cmd
teach2.cmd
teach21.bak
teach21.cmd
teach2r.cmd
teach3.cmd
teach3c.cmd
teach3f.cmd
teach3f1.cmd
teach4.cmd
teach4b.cmd
teach4l.cmd
teach5.cmd
teach6.cmd
teach6m.cmd
teach6u.cmd
teach7.cmd
teach7p.cmd
teach8.cmd
teach8f.cmd
teach8r.cmd
teach9.cmd
teachc.cmd
teachi.cmd
teachxc.cmd
tutmem.mem
tutnabk.dbf
whitehse.cmd


IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD FM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 18:25:33

K10G reload disk 13

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps SD 10x512
40/0 250 kbps SD 2x128
81 tracks(41/40), 802 sectors (316 Compressed)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLDD.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

10:
cb-bank.dbf
cb-book.mem
cb-cancl.cmd
cb-check.cmd
cb-check.dbf
cb-clear.cmd
cb-date.cmd
cb-depst.cmd
cb-depst.dbf
cb-help.cmd
cb-main.cmd
cb-mask.cmd
cb-nbwd.cmd
cb-recon.cmd
cb-reprt.cmd
dbase.com
dbasemsg.txt
dbaseovr.com
dgen.cmd
dgen.ovl
dsort.com
filegen.cmd
formgen.cmd
in-add.cmd
in-chng.cmd
in-clean.cmd
in-date.cmd


IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD TD 1.5 5.25 LD FM S-step, 2 sides ADV 25/01/1996 18:19:32

K10G reload disk 14

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 250 kbps SD 10x512
40/0 250 kbps SD 2x128
81 tracks(41/40), 802 sectors (529 Compressed)


cpmls -f kay2 K10GRLDE.RAW
0:
pip.com
userx.com

10:
in-delte.cmd
in-dtail.cmd
in-help.cmd
in-init.cmd
in-main.cmd
in-main.dbf
in-pdesc.ndx
in-pnum.ndx
in-reodr.cmd
in-rpt.cmd
in-rpt1.frm
in-rpt2.frm
in-updte.cmd
in-view.cmd
in-vwed.cmd
install.com
labelgen.cmd
lb-names.dbf
lb-print.cmd
menugen.cmd
rev-off.cmd
rev-on.cmd
sp-help.cmd
sp-main.cmd
zip.com
zipin.com
zscrn.ovl




Larry

dmemphis
October 12th, 2016, 06:28 PM
The Kaypro 10 has a 390K floppy. Yes two heads. 40 Tracks I guess, not sure where the extra 30K capacity
comes from... more sectors per track or a few more tracks?
I pretty much was only changing the double step to OFF. Defaults for the rest.
Here's results for 1.2MB HD Drive:
33792
33791
Back to the DSDD IBM drive, it completes, but its no good on the Kaypro:
33793
Notice that image uses tracks 0-39.
I did some analysis on HALD7 and GRLD7 and they both begin using tracks beyond 0-39, which
seems to cause a problem with the GRLD disks from 7 on out.
For some reason, GRLD1 - 6 work as expected, creating them from teledisk 2.16.
None of the HALD disks work at all, though HALD1 does write out to media sucessfully, but doesn't work in the machine.
I also tried writing out GRLD7 from older versions of teledisk (v2.1 and a few after that), with no love, they all simply locked up the computer.

dmemphis
October 12th, 2016, 06:30 PM
Oh that's a thought- maybe if the directories are OK, they are extractable ON THE PC and rebuildable via IMD into an archive and for minting the media.

ldkraemer
October 12th, 2016, 07:14 PM
OK, I'm waiting on your PM with email address. Then I'll send the .ZIP file for you to test.

Your two .ZIP files are on the way. K10GRLD*.ZIP & K10HALD*.ZIP (One file did not copy - mite/u.com)


Larry

ldkraemer
October 13th, 2016, 01:30 PM
dmemphis,
I've sent you an updated K10HALD5.ZIP with the MITE/U.COM file renamed to MITE-U.COM. You can always rename it back to Original
after the rebuild. (cpmtools doesn't like the "/" in the filename)

I also had to Format my Floppy with Imagedisk with a SKEW of 4 to be able to read the files with my Kaypro II.

The .IMD files I tried seemed to work OK. How is your progress going?

Larry


33799

bear
October 13th, 2016, 03:10 PM
If you're using a 1.2 MB HD drive to write the image, you need to set IMD for 300k DD, so you get the right data rate on the Kaypro owing to the differences in spindle speed (360 RPM vs. 300 RPM).

dmemphis
October 13th, 2016, 04:35 PM
Ah, I did not set it for 300K DD . I guess it shows I DO NOT understand what these stock kaypro 390K floppies are all about;
it doesn't make any sense to me yet why 80 track drive comes into play.
I was mainly trying to find a combination that didn't show errors writing out in IMD...
to understand what the intent of the IMDs were in those files... still not expecting them
to actually work in the stock kaypro once I built them.

I'm following the advice of trying to rebuild the offending disks from the discrete files. If I'm successful
then I'll reimage the new media and offer it back to the archives.

durgadas
March 6th, 2017, 10:06 AM
I'm late to the party, but Kaypro standard floppy drives are 40-track (48 track/inch) double sided, so a total of 80 tracks of data. However, Kaypro floppy format is a little odd as the sectors on side 0 are numbered 0-9 and on side 1 are numbered 10-19 (more common formats have both side 0 and 1 sectors numbered 1..N). Hopefully the IMD images preserve that numbering and the diskette imaging software will transfer that to the disk (requires actual formatting, not just writing sectors). Making things worse, the Kaypro directory sectors are on side 1, so no files can be read if side 1 is not formatted correctly.

I recently created a Kaypro simulation and ran through the Kaypro 10 re-install, virtually at least. The "k10hald*" images worked for me, but I used ROM 81-302c (these images are CP/M 2.2H). I'm not sure just what ROMs are compatible with what CP/M versions, but the "universal ROM" (81-478a) was a departure and requires the CP/M boot image to be checksummed before it will boot it. I think you need CP/M 2.2u for that.

Also, there appears to be a difference between ROM 81-302c and 81-478a "universal" in how they manage the hard disk directory. The '302c does some sort of "mirroring" of directory sectors and hides this from CP/M (artificially alters track numbers to hide it). I suspect you cannot take a hard disk created on one ROM and boot with the other ROM.

If I can be of help, let me know.

durgadas311
March 7th, 2017, 02:47 AM
I know I'm late to the party, but the standard floppy drives used in Kaypros had 40 physical tracks (more correctly called cylinders, but most people did not use that term) and with double-sided drives that results in 80 tracks of data.

The Kaypro floppy format was a little odd. The physical sector numbering (in the sector headers) was 0-9 on side 0 and 10-19 on side 1. In addition, the physical side byte may have been "0" on both sides, but either way Kaypro BIOS ROMs told the WD1793 to ignore the side byte. More conventional floppy formatting numbered sectors 1-N on both sides and set the side byte to 0 or 1 and included that in sector header compares. I beleive the IMD images preserve the physical header formatting, but the program to write the IMD image to floppy must also format the track accordingly. It is not sufficient, at least in the case of Kaypro floppies, to simply copy logical sector data to a new floppy.

The early Kaypro 10s (ROM 81-302c at least) also used a special mirroring algorithm on the CP/M directory sectors of the hard drive. The ROM essentially copied each directory sector to two different tracks (heads). I would assume that was in hopes of recovering from disk failure, since the directory was the most-heavily used portion of the disk. Anyway, later ROMs (81-478a "universal" at least) did not perform that mirroring, making the hard drive layout different, and I doubt you could switch ROMs and preserve data on the hard drive.

Kaypro also had some dependencies between ROM versions and CP/M versions. I haven't worked out the complete matrix yet, but the "universal" ROM depends on a checksum in the boot sector and so you cannot boot older CP/Ms.

I recently created a virtual Kaypro and went through the reload procedure for a Kaypro 10 (ROM 81-302c and CP/M 2.2H). I used the "k10hald*" images as I could not get the "kay10*" images to work (the latter seem to be 2.2F and may require a different ROM). Of course, that was on well-behaved virtual hardware.

Let me know if I can help,
Doug

dmemphis
March 7th, 2017, 10:44 AM
Thanks for weighing in here. Thats good work and we'll look forward to your ROM compatibility matrix.
I need to add here that part of the problem I had with the disks turned out to
be a failure on the IBM 360K drive JUST AS I WAS DOING THIS PROJECT...
I didn't discover that until I tried to make some disks for a 5150 PC that weren't working right
on that machine either.

durgadas311
March 19th, 2017, 08:19 AM
I have at least something for the compatibility matrix started here: http://sims.durgadas.com/kaypro/kaypromodels.html

A lot of information was gleaned from the document I found on bitsavers, "Kaypro Technical Manual 1484-F".

dmemphis
April 20th, 2017, 05:40 AM
Nice work on those compatibility details!