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fjk61011
June 11th, 2017, 10:05 AM
With this connected up to my 5150, I was getting POST error 1801:

The POST found an extender card for the IBM 5161
Expansion Unit within the 5150.
Because of that, the POST made an
assumption that a 5161 Expansion Unit is connected to the card.
The POST
attempted to communicate with the 5161 and that communication failed.

Some
possible 1801 causes:
5161 Expansion Unit is not connected to the
extender card.
5161 Expansion Unit not powered on (needs to be powered on
before the 5150 is).
Faulty extender card.
Faulty cable.
Faulty 5161
Expansion Unit.

After checking the memory switches in the 5150, I got past the 1801 error but system wouldn't boot from the Hard Drive in the 5150. It does boot from the floppy drive in the 5150.

There is a floppy drive and hard drive in the 5161 both cabled to the same adapter card.

Any hints of the way to try to get this setup working?

modem7
June 11th, 2017, 02:33 PM
After checking the memory switches in the 5150, I got past the 1801 error
That sounds like you still see the 1801 error. As an experiment, see if the 1801 remains after all cards are removed from the 5161.


After checking the memory switches in the 5150, I got past the 1801 error but system wouldn't boot from the Hard Drive in the 5150. It does boot from the floppy drive in the 5150.
There is a floppy drive and hard drive in the 5161 both cabled to the same adapter card.
Any hints of the way to try to get this setup working?
Adding a 5161 is effectively adding extra slots to your 5150 motherboard. So, anything added to the 5161 must not resource conflict (address/IO/IRQ/DMA) with what is in the 5150. From what you have written, I see a probable conflict: an XT-class hard disk controller in the 5150 and one in the 5161. They are probably both attempting to use the resources (all or some) shown in the top half of the diagram at [here (http://minuszerodegrees.net/hdd/HDD%20controllers%20-%20XT%20versus%20AT.png)].

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 01:51 AM
That sounds like you still see the 1801 error. As an experiment, see if the 1801 remains after all cards are removed from the 5161.


Adding a 5161 is effectively adding extra slots to your 5150 motherboard. So, anything added to the 5161 must not resource conflict (address/IO/IRQ/DMA) with what is in the 5150. From what you have written, I see a probable conflict: an XT-class hard disk controller in the 5150 and one in the 5161. They are probably both attempting to use the resources (all or some) shown in the top half of the diagram at [here (http://minuszerodegrees.net/hdd/HDD%20corollers%20-%20XT%20versus%20AT.png)].

Will try that later.

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 05:49 AM
Reading the Expansion Unit manual. There is a graphic showing the Expansion Channel Slot 1. Is Slot 1 closest to the Power Supply?

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 06:12 AM
I've made some progress. With an AST SixPackPlus with 256k of memory and the switches in 5150 to reflect that and the switches on the expansion card set to 1011 per chart on minus zero degrees, the 5150 boots from the A: drive and chkdsk shows 520k of memory.

Still no luck booting from the C: drive.

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 07:00 AM
With the AST and an MDA card in the 5161, the 5150 boots from the A: drive which leads me to believe the 5161 is working.

Still no luck booting from the C: Drive in the 5150 with the Xebec card removed from the 5161.

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 08:08 AM
With the hard drive adapter removed from the 5150 I was able to low level format the drive in the 5161 using the DEBUG routine from minuszerodegrees.

fdisked and now formatting.

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 08:23 AM
I formatted the drive in the 5161 from DOS 3.30 with the /S parameter. The system boots from the drive in the 5161. The drive is a full height drive approx. 10 mb

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 08:26 AM
Could the expansion card In the 5150 be conflicting with the WD hard drive adapter when it is installed in the 5150?

fjk61011
June 12th, 2017, 09:28 AM
With this connected up to my 5150, I was getting POST error 1801:


There is a floppy drive and hard drive in the 5161 both cabled to the same adapter card.



The floppy was actually connect to the Hard Drive cable.

modem7
June 13th, 2017, 12:07 AM
Reading the Expansion Unit manual. There is a graphic showing the Expansion Channel Slot 1. Is Slot 1 closest to the Power Supply?
No; furthest away.
Any slot in the 5150 should be fine.
The March 1986 edition of the 5155/5160 Technical Reference shows the extender card in slot 2.


With the AST and an MDA card in the 5161 ...

... and the switches on the expansion card set to 1011 ...
The RAM in the AST will be slowed by a wait state.
If performance is important to you, move the AST card to the 5150 (if possible), then adjust the expansion card's wait-state switches accordingly.


The floppy was actually connect to the Hard Drive cable.
From that, I take it that all is working now.

fjk61011
June 13th, 2017, 02:12 AM
Still haven't got the hard drive in the 5150 to work. controller in 5161 removed

fjk61011
June 13th, 2017, 03:15 AM
the st-225 and wdxt card work in the 5161 but don't in the 5150. I get one long beep and two short.

Stone
June 13th, 2017, 04:01 AM
... I get one long beep and two short.Video Adapter Error

fjk61011
June 13th, 2017, 04:49 AM
Video Adapter Error

Setup:

5150. From slot nearest PSU (5?), Floppy Drive Controller, 5161 Extender Card, MDA card, Blank, AST SixPackPlus.

5161. Receiver Card, Hard Drive Controller, 8-bit NIC, Parallel Card.

Backpack floppy drive connected to the parallel port. Everything works fine.

For some reason neither the HD Controller nor the parallel port work in the 5150.

ibmapc
June 13th, 2017, 06:48 AM
....For some reason neither the HD Controller nor the parallel port work in the 5150.
What version of BIOS is in the 5150?
I seem to remember the early version did not support hard drives.

fjk61011
June 13th, 2017, 08:37 AM
What version of BIOS is in the 5150?
I seem to remember the early version did not support hard drives.

The hard drive worked in the 5150without the extender card.

ibmapc
June 13th, 2017, 09:03 AM
The hard drive worked in the 5150without the extender card.

Hmm... Well, the 5161 that I had a long time ago (bought new about 1986) came with a "bios update kit" that I didn't use because the docs said not to use it since I had a 5155. I wonder if that was for the 5150? I wish I still had that ROM, but it is long gone and so is the 5161. I still do have the install instructions that mention the "bios update", but it doesn't say what machine it's for. Since the 5155 has the same Mother Board as an early 5160, I figured the ROM must be for a 5150.

Trixter
June 13th, 2017, 09:13 AM
The hard drive worked in the 5150without the extender card.

Then something you added in the 5161 conflicted with the hard drive controller in the 5150.

It might be best to lay out your system so that the MDA, floppy controller, and hard drive controller are the ONLY cards in ANY system, apart from the sender/receiver card. Start with that basic configuration, and if everything is working, add one card at a time until you find the one that prevents booting.

I think your issues are due to resource conflicts, not the 5161. I've filled up every single slot in a 5160+5161 and it all worked, so it's not a 5161 issue.

modem7
June 13th, 2017, 05:28 PM
Hmm... Well, the 5161 that I had a long time ago (bought new about 1986) came with a "bios update kit" that I didn't use because the docs said not to use it since I had a 5155. I wonder if that was for the 5150? I wish I still had that ROM, but it is long gone and so is the 5161. I still do have the install instructions that mention the "bios update", but it doesn't say what machine it's for. Since the 5155 has the same Mother Board as an early 5160, I figured the ROM must be for a 5150.
Yes, it was for the IBM 5150, to bring the BIOS revision up to the final revision (to support the 5161 and hard drive controllers). The BIOS upgrade kit is pictured at [here (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5150/early/5150_bios_upgrade_kit.jpg)].

modem7
June 13th, 2017, 05:30 PM
the st-225 and wdxt card work in the 5161 but don't in the 5150. I get one long beep and two short.

Video Adapter Error
Except that in the IBM 5150, there is another possible cause due to a software bug. See [here (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5150/post/5150%20-%20POST%20-%20Some%20errors.htm)].

If that bug is being invoked, then a possible cause is two XT-class hard disk controllers in the system (i.e. two ROMs sitting at C8000, 'competing with each other').

modem7
June 13th, 2017, 05:44 PM
It might be best to lay out your system so that the MDA, floppy controller, and hard drive controller are the ONLY cards in ANY system, apart from the sender/receiver card. Start with that basic configuration, and if everything is working, add one card at a time until you find the one that prevents booting.
Maybe start even more primitive:
So, MDA, floppy controller, and hard drive controller are the ONLY cards in the 5150 (i.e. no extender card and 5161).
If that works, then add the extender card (minus attached 5161), expecting to see an 1800 error, but expecting hard drive to still boot.
If that works, then attach the 5161 (minus cards), expecting to see the 1800 error gone, and expecting hard drive to still boot.
If that works, then move the hard drive controller and drive (a know working combination) into the 5161.

(Extender card switch settings (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5161/misc/5161_extender_card_switches.htm) would be 0011 to cater for the controller.)

fjk61011
June 14th, 2017, 01:38 AM
What version of BIOS is in the 5150?
I seem to remember the early version did not support hard drives.

What's the DEBUG code to check the BIOS?

fjk61011
June 14th, 2017, 07:27 AM
I've a MDA card in slot one, Floppy Controller, AST SixPackPlus, Serial Mouse Card, Extender Card in the 5150.

In the 5161, a Hard Drive Controller and an NIC plus the Receiver Card.

All working.

Trixter
June 14th, 2017, 10:20 AM
What's the DEBUG code to check the BIOS?

d ffff:0

...will show you the BIOS date.


I've a MDA card in slot one, Floppy Controller, AST SixPackPlus, Serial Mouse Card, Extender Card in the 5150. In the 5161, a Hard Drive Controller and an NIC plus the Receiver Card. All working.

Okay, so you're all set then?

fjk61011
June 14th, 2017, 10:21 AM
d ffff:0

...will show you the BIOS date.

Thanks.

modem7
June 14th, 2017, 11:44 PM
What's the DEBUG code to check the BIOS?
Or you could go to minuszerodegrees.net, and discover that looking at the IBM part number on chip U33 also informs you of the motherboard BIOS revision.

You will discover that you have the final BIOS revision. The "1801" error code will not be in the earlier revisions. Support for the hard disk controller (you got the WDXT-GEN working in the 5161) does not appear in the earlier revisions.

ibmapc
June 16th, 2017, 01:07 PM
I'm thinking IBM intended for people to have a hard disk in the expansion unit but not the system unit. In the documentation I've seen, they mention moving the hard disk to the expansion unit. See HERE (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5161/doco/ProductAnnouncement_183-28_IBM_5161_PC_Expansion_Unit.PDF) and read the second paragraph second sentence.


The IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit Model 1 includes the Fixed Disk Drive and its adapter card. The IBM Personal Computer XT Expansion Unit Model 2 includes only the Fixed Disk Drive.
A Fixed Disk Drive Adapter card and Fixed Disk Drive must be moved from the IBM Personal Computer XT System Unit to the IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit Model 2
at installation time to provide a total of 20MB of fixed disk storage.

I know they're talking about an XT, but the same would apply to the 5150. The extender card must be conflicting with your hard drive controller.

fjk61011
June 16th, 2017, 01:41 PM
I'm thinking IBM intended for people to have a hard disk in the expansion unit but not the system unit. In the documentation I've seen, they mention moving the hard disk to the expansion unit. See HERE (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5161/doco/ProductAnnouncement_183-28_IBM_5161_PC_Expansion_Unit.PDF) and read the second paragraph second sentence.


The IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit Model 1 includes the Fixed Disk Drive and its adapter card. The IBM Personal Computer XT Expansion Unit Model 2 includes only the Fixed Disk Drive.
A Fixed Disk Drive Adapter card and Fixed Disk Drive must be moved from the IBM Personal Computer XT System Unit to the IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit Model 2
at installation time to provide a total of 20MB of fixed disk storage.

I know they're talking about an XT, but the same would apply to the 5150. The extender card must be conflicting with your hard drive controller.

the hard drive is in the expansion unit. No conflicts. The leaflet says the graphics card must be in the 5150. I have a hercules vga. It won't work in the 5150 but does work in the expansion unit.

ibmapc
June 16th, 2017, 02:48 PM
the hard drive is in the expansion unit. No conflicts. The leaflet says the graphics card must be in the 5150. I have a hercules vga. It won't work in the 5150 but does work in the expansion unit.

I was referring to your previous posts when you mentioned the hard disk wouldn't work in the 5150 with the extender card. I know that you have since moved the hard drive and controller to the 5161. Interesting about the hercules card.


Still haven't got the hard drive in the 5150 to work. controller in 5161 removed


The hard drive worked in the 5150without the extender card.

modem7
June 16th, 2017, 03:49 PM
I'm thinking IBM intended for people to have a hard disk in the expansion unit but not the system unit. In the documentation I've seen, they mention moving the hard disk to the expansion unit. See HERE and read the second paragraph second sentence.


The IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit Model 1 includes the Fixed Disk Drive and its adapter card. The IBM Personal Computer XT Expansion Unit Model 2 includes only the Fixed Disk Drive.
A Fixed Disk Drive Adapter card and Fixed Disk Drive must be moved from the IBM Personal Computer XT System Unit to the IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit Model 2
at installation time to provide a total of 20MB of fixed disk storage.

I know they're talking about an XT, ...
The model 2 of the 5161 has a 10MB hard drive but no MFM controller. It is intended for buyers whose 5160 contains a 10MB hard drive and MFM controller, and the buyer wants to add extra 10MB capacity. So the hard drive + MFM controller in the 5160 gets moved to the 5161. The buyer ends up with a 5160 containing floppy drive/s, and a 5161 containing two 10 MB hard drives (attached to one MFM controller).

bear
June 16th, 2017, 03:56 PM
When they say "the graphics card must be in the system unit", they are referring to the CGA card, which will not work in the 5161 as the color burst signal isn't passed through the expander card. If there is some other limitation which affects the MDA (not a "graphics" card), I'm not sure what it might be, unless somehow it's affected by the extra wait state. Your VGA card (presumably) doesn't need the color burst signal.

modem7
June 16th, 2017, 04:03 PM
When they say "the graphics card must be in the system unit", they are referring to the CGA card, which will not work in the 5161 as the color burst signal isn't passed through the expander card.
But the colour burst is not something that appears on the ISA bus; it is generated on the CGA card itself.

modem7
June 16th, 2017, 04:04 PM
The extender card must be conflicting with your hard drive controller.

the hard drive is in the expansion unit. No conflicts.

I was referring to your previous posts when you mentioned the hard disk wouldn't work in the 5150 with the extender card. I know that you have since moved the hard drive and controller to the 5161.
The ISA bus in the 5150 and the connected 5161 are from a resource (memory/IO/IRQ/DMA) perspective, the one bus. If there was a resource conflict, then I would expect that the conflict would occur irrespective of where the conflicting cards were (5150 or 5161).

modem7
June 16th, 2017, 04:29 PM
Maybe start even more primitive:
1. So, MDA, floppy controller, and hard drive controller are the ONLY cards in the 5150 (i.e. no extender card and 5161).
2. If that works, then add the extender card (minus attached 5161), expecting to see an 1801 error, but expecting hard drive to still boot.
3. If that works, then attach the 5161 (minus cards), expecting to see the 1800 error gone, and expecting hard drive to still boot.
4. If that works, then move the hard drive controller and drive (a known working combination) into the 5161.
(Extender card switch settings would be 0011 to cater for the controller.)
Was this start-with-mimimum process tried ?
If so, at which point did things not go as expected ?

reenigne
June 16th, 2017, 11:55 PM
But the colour burst is not something that appears on the ISA bus; it is generated on the CGA card itself.

The colour burst is generated on the CGA card, but it (along with the other internal CGA clocks) is derived from the 14.318MHz OSC signal on the ISA bus, which is not available in the 5161.

An EGA card will have the same problem - it'll work in 350-line modes (for which it uses an internal 16.257MHz pixel clock) but not in 200-line modes (which use the OSC clock or a derivation thereof).

fjk61011
June 17th, 2017, 05:32 AM
Was this start-with-mimimum process tried ?
If so, at which point did things not go as expected ?

2. If that works, then add the extender card (minus attached 5161), expecting to see an 1801 error, but expecting hard drive to still boot.

Hard drive not recognised here. No Hard drive controller in 5161.

Transferred HD controller to 5161. Works. It is a wdxt Gen and st-225.

Tried Hercules VGA in 5150, no video. Tried it in 5161. Video.

ibmapc
June 17th, 2017, 11:05 AM
2. If that works, then add the extender card (minus attached 5161), expecting to see an 1801 error, but expecting hard drive to still boot.

Hard drive not recognised here....

Did you see the 1801 error?
was the 5161 disconnected or at least turned off during this test?

fjk61011
June 17th, 2017, 12:14 PM
Did you see the 1801 error?
was the 5161 disconnected or at least turned off during this test?

Yes.

I was getting a white screen with a brighter white curs0r with the vga card so i've put the MDA back in the 5150 an left the hard drive in the 5161.

Might try my xt-ide card next.

modem7
June 17th, 2017, 02:56 PM
But the colour burst is not something that appears on the ISA bus; it is generated on the CGA card itself.

The colour burst is generated on the CGA card, but it (along with the other internal CGA clocks) is derived from the 14.318MHz OSC signal on the ISA bus, which is not available in the 5161.
According to the 5161 circuit diagram, the 5161 generates its own 14.31818 MHz OSC signal.
See [here (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5161/misc/5161_internal_14.31818_MHz_clock_generator.jpg)].

modem7
June 17th, 2017, 03:19 PM
was the 5161 disconnected or at least turned off during this test?
Unfortunately, leaving the 5161 attached, even though it is unpowered, introduces another a variable to the test equation.
That is why, for step 2, I specified that no 5161 be attached at all.
It is simple to do, and it would rule out any possible interference from: cable, receiver card, 5161 motherboard. (Even though they are not powered.)

reenigne
June 17th, 2017, 11:36 PM
According to the 5161 circuit diagram, the 5161 generates its own 14.31818 MHz OSC signal.
See [here (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5161/misc/5161_internal_14.31818_MHz_clock_generator.jpg)].

Huh, in that case I don't know why it wouldn't work. Perhaps it's just not recommended to use a video card in the 5161 because the speed of the video card is critical and the additional latency added by the sender and receiver cards is significant.