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triskalguilo
July 30th, 2017, 08:32 PM
Hello all, I'm a proud new father of a beautiful Tandy 1000 TL/3 :-) It came with a Seagate ST-325X in it -- which was a wonderful surprise to find in there, since the seller didn't mention it at all! -- but it has problems spinning up.

When first turning on the computer, the drive just can't get spinning -- it clicks back and forth a teeny tiny bit a few times, and then it gives up. I can remove the PCB screws, gently tilt the PCB up (without unplugging anything), and reach in with my finger and spin the spindle a little bit myself. Then the drive takes over, spins all the way up, and works perfectly from then on. (Not even any bad sectors!) It's just that getting-going part that it has trouble with.

Is there something I can do to clean / oil the spindle, so it can spin up without help?

modem7
July 31st, 2017, 12:10 AM
See [here (http://minuszerodegrees.net/5160/misc/5160_startup_power_+12V.jpg)]. Because the hard drive attempts to draw a lot (relatively speaking) of current when the spindle motor starts, the problem cause may be power related.

Have you tried another power supply?
In case of poor electrical connection, try removing/refitting the power cable to the drive a few times.

triskalguilo
July 31st, 2017, 06:11 AM
Have you tried another power supply?

Sure have -- a couple of modern known-good ATX power supplies. Same deal on both. I also have another ST-325X (but it has some bad sectors) that spins up just fine in the TL/3. (I even swapped the PCB over from that one) So I think the power supply is putting out the juice that it should.


In case of poor electrical connection, try removing/refitting the power cable to the drive a few times.

Good guess -- can't count the number of times I've ran into this one :-) But I've unplugged and plugged it so many times that I'd think that any corrosion that might have been present would have been scraped off by now. Plus, the PCB swap :-)

Chuck(G)
July 31st, 2017, 06:17 AM
If it's a lubrication issue, try running the drive upside-down for a day or so to redistribute what's left in the bearings.

If it's a stiction issue, there's not much that can be done.

vwestlife
July 31st, 2017, 09:40 AM
You could upgrade to an ST-351A/X, if you can find one. They used to be common on eBay, but they seem to have gotten scarce lately.

I believe it was the last 40 MB IDE drive ever made, and every one I've come across has worked flawlessly -- unlike the Western Digital (ex-Tandon) IDE drives that Tandy also used, which are very unreliable.

triskalguilo
July 31st, 2017, 10:49 AM
If it's a lubrication issue, try running the drive upside-down for a day or so to redistribute what's left in the bearings.

If it's a stiction issue, there's not much that can be done.

Funnily enough, I've been running it almost exclusively upside-down, since that's the easiest way to spin the spindle with my finger, and -- once it's spinning -- I don't want to flip it, and risk putting gyroscopic stress on it.

I haven't tried running it for a full day, though, so I may try that next. I've ran it for two separate 6-hour periods, though.

triskalguilo
July 31st, 2017, 10:51 AM
You could upgrade to an ST-351A/X, if you can find one.

Quite true -- but if I'm gonna sink more money into this computer, I could just get an XT-IDE controller and be done :-) (Which I'm considering!) But this drive is so close to working flawlessly, it seems a shame to give up on it...

vwestlife
July 31st, 2017, 12:16 PM
Quite true -- but if I'm gonna sink more money into this computer, I could just get an XT-IDE controller and be done :-) (Which I'm considering!)

But then you'd miss the awesome startup sound the ST325X makes!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_naIj9G1Uw

Druid6900
August 1st, 2017, 06:47 AM
Quite true -- but if I'm gonna sink more money into this computer, I could just get an XT-IDE controller and be done :-) (Which I'm considering!) But this drive is so close to working flawlessly, it seems a shame to give up on it...

From experience, I've learned that, once a drive has to be "push-started", it always will have to be, despite every effort to make it do otherwise.

If you want to maintain you computer as authentic, I have an ST-325X in stock that I bought as a spare when I was upgrading a number of RLs to hard drive capability. The others all worked fine and this one is still sealed. I'd be asking $50 USD plus shipping for it. Although I don't have an RL left to test it in, I would most certainly in-seal it and test that it spins up.

Stone
August 1st, 2017, 07:18 AM
Since it's AT/XT compatible why not test it in one of those?

Chuck(G)
August 1st, 2017, 07:24 AM
From experience, I've learned that, once a drive has to be "push-started", it always will have to be, despite every effort to make it do otherwise.

Depends on the circumstances, in my experience. A drive that has to be push-or-bang started after a decade or more of sitting around will often start behaving if run every month or two. I had a Quantum Q540 drive like that. I initially panicked because I hadn't backed some old stuff up from it and it didn't start. Lifting one end of the case and dropping back onto the table freed the drive up enough that it started spinning again. Hasn't acted up since.

But a push-start needed after that probably means that the spindle motor is no longer capable of self-starting--could be stiction or bearing friction.

triskalguilo
August 1st, 2017, 09:05 AM
But then you'd miss the awesome startup sound the ST325X makes!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_naIj9G1Uw

I do love those startup sounds :-D I have some old full-height SCSI hard drives in my IBM 5150 and 5160 that sound like a jet taking off when I turn them on :-D

triskalguilo
August 1st, 2017, 09:06 AM
From experience, I've learned that, once a drive has to be "push-started", it always will have to be, despite every effort to make it do otherwise.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of -- I'm thinking I might get a replacement drive, and just copy everything over while I still can.


If you want to maintain you computer as authentic, I have an ST-325X in stock that I bought as a spare when I was upgrading a number of RLs to hard drive capability. The others all worked fine and this one is still sealed. I'd be asking $50 USD plus shipping for it. Although I don't have an RL left to test it in, I would most certainly in-seal it and test that it spins up.

I will certainly consider that, thanks :-D

triskalguilo
August 1st, 2017, 09:12 AM
Since it's AT/XT compatible why not test it in one of those?

I would if I could, but it's actually not the AT/XT compatible version -- the ST-325X is only 8-bit IDE compatible. (Not to be confused with 99% of other IDE hard drives, which are 16-bit IDE)

And, unfortunately, I've only got two computers that have 8-bit IDE: the Tandy 1000 TL/3 (which I'm using), and a Tandy 1000 RL. I could plug the drive into the RL... but I don't think that would make much of a difference, since my other ST-325X (which has copious bad sectors) spins up just fine when I plug it into the TL/3.

So, I think that eliminates the computer and the controller as the possible culprits. Perplexion continues...

triskalguilo
August 1st, 2017, 09:15 AM
Depends on the circumstances, in my experience. A drive that has to be push-or-bang started after a decade or more of sitting around will often start behaving if run every month or two. I had a Quantum Q540 drive like that. I initially panicked because I hadn't backed some old stuff up from it and it didn't start. Lifting one end of the case and dropping back onto the table freed the drive up enough that it started spinning again. Hasn't acted up since.

But a push-start needed after that probably means that the spindle motor is no longer capable of self-starting--could be stiction or bearing friction.

I'm guessing it's not stiction, because just last night, I turned on the computer, spun the drive up with my finger, and ran PARK.COM to park the heads. Turned the computer off, turned it back on, drive wouldn't spin up. So I'm betting it's option B: bearing friction.

Do the bearings just need to be oiled? Anyone know if it's even possible to oil the spindle motor without opening the drive casing?

vwestlife
August 1st, 2017, 01:42 PM
I turned on the computer, spun the drive up with my finger, and ran PARK.COM to park the heads.
FYI, the ST-325X is auto-parking.

ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/at/st325x.txt

Stone
August 1st, 2017, 02:08 PM
Besides, parking doesn't affect stiction. :-)

triskalguilo
August 1st, 2017, 03:41 PM
Besides, parking doesn't affect stiction. :-)

But doesn't parking move the heads off of the platters, thereby making it impossible for the heads to stick to the platters? Or does this particular drive have a landing zone that's within the platters, thereby making stiction still possible? I'm genuinely asking here; these are things that I don't know for sure :-)

vwestlife
August 1st, 2017, 05:42 PM
But doesn't parking move the heads off of the platters, thereby making it impossible for the heads to stick to the platters?

Only laptop drives do that. Parking a desktop hard drive moves the heads to a safe part of the platter where no data is written, rather than moving them entirely off the platter.

Druid6900
August 2nd, 2017, 06:17 AM
Since it's AT/XT compatible why not test it in one of those?

Good point. As soon as I can get all the Tandy model I, III and IV stuff we are tearing down for part-out (damaged in shipping stuff we bought a bunch of), I'll have to dig up an IBM test jig and try that out.

Druid6900
August 2nd, 2017, 06:23 AM
Depends on the circumstances, in my experience. A drive that has to be push-or-bang started after a decade or more of sitting around will often start behaving if run every month or two. I had a Quantum Q540 drive like that. I initially panicked because I hadn't backed some old stuff up from it and it didn't start. Lifting one end of the case and dropping back onto the table freed the drive up enough that it started spinning again. Hasn't acted up since.

But a push-start needed after that probably means that the spindle motor is no longer capable of self-starting--could be stiction or bearing friction.

True enough, but, I find a much higher success rate with 5.25" drives than with the 3.5" drives. I don't know if that is coincidence or design considerations, but, the last dozen or so 3.5" drives we tried to recover spin function with were failures, even after manually spinning them up and letting them run for 24 hours. After shut down, in our testing, if the drive is left for more than an hour, it has to be spun up again manually.

With the 5.25" drives, once is usually enough, maybe a light bearing lube, and, as long as you run them up once a year, they spin up right away.

Druid6900
August 2nd, 2017, 06:26 AM
I would if I could, but it's actually not the AT/XT compatible version -- the ST-325X is only 8-bit IDE compatible. (Not to be confused with 99% of other IDE hard drives, which are 16-bit IDE)

And, unfortunately, I've only got two computers that have 8-bit IDE: the Tandy 1000 TL/3 (which I'm using), and a Tandy 1000 RL. I could plug the drive into the RL... but I don't think that would make much of a difference, since my other ST-325X (which has copious bad sectors) spins up just fine when I plug it into the TL/3.

So, I think that eliminates the computer and the controller as the possible culprits. Perplexion continues...

I think Stone was talking about the ST-325X that I have, in order to test it should you want it......