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liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 01:28 PM
As some of you know I recently acquired a Kaypro 4 and have been in the process of restoring it, which I am very close to done. I have a question about the different model Kaypro machines and how they display characters.

As an example i tried out a handful of text based games and some work great without issue while others either don't display properly or control properly.

Pacman.com and Catchum.com display properly and control properly without issue.

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Where the problem starts is Aliens.com and Clone.com both display characters that are obviously wrong. They both are a mess on screen. Is the Kaypro 4 just not compatible with these games?

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And then I have the game Qix.com which displays correctly, but the controls just do not work at all or at most it will work just for a second and then stop responding to the keyboard.

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VERAULT
January 22nd, 2018, 01:32 PM
beit that the kaypro 4 and kaypro 4/83 ran different versions and formats of CP/M possibly you just need a different version.

liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 01:39 PM
I tried Kaypro IV CPM v2.2F and Kaypro II CPM v2.2 with the same results so I will keep trying different versions I suppose.

With the Qix.com control problem the inf file states I need to run an install. Anyone know what this means?

It reads:

"TERMINAL INSTALLATION

Before you use this program, it must be installed to your particular
terminal, i.e. provided with information regarding control characters
required for certain functions such as cursor control, screen clear,
etc. This installation is easily performed using the program contained
in TURBOINS.LBR available elsewhere on this system."

durgadas311
January 22nd, 2018, 02:08 PM
I suspect the display issue is that the programs need to be "ported" to the Kaypro screen control codes. The terminal emulation should be an extended ADM3, but that is implemented in the ROM so CP/M version should not matter. The same goes for keyboard mapping, although I would expect these programs to use standard ASCII codes? or do they pretend to accept cursor keys? BTW, CP/M versions are generally paired with ROM version, although there is some compatibility between certain versions. You could get into trouble booting CP/M versions that are not intended for your ROM version.

There should be a Kaypro User's Guide that describes the screen control codes as well as the keyboard codes. You'd have to use that, in conjunction with whatever describes how the games are adapted to various terminals, in order to complete the configuration. Sounds like some of them had separate programs used to configure the terminal type.

tezza
January 22nd, 2018, 02:49 PM
Hmmm. I have a Kaypro 4. It has a graphics mode and I have some graphic games (I have an idea Aliens might be one of them, but I'd need to check). As another person said, is it a Kaypro 4 or a Kaypro 4/83? I don't know anything about the latter but maybe your model doesn't have a graphics mode? This would explain why ASCII games work and others do not.

Tez

durgadas311
January 22nd, 2018, 03:01 PM
I had missed the possibility it was a model 4 (vs. model 4/83 or 4/84). The models II and 4 had pretty limited video capabilities - I believe only reverse video. It's possible some of the screen distortion is ESC sequences that are not recognized. Still, the games could be ported to the capabilities of your Kaypro screen, if they allow for that sort of thing.

liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 03:24 PM
This is my motherboard if this helps. I am still very new on the Kaypro systems so you tell me what system I have. It has Kaypro 4 on the side of the case. I thought most Kaypro systems were text only except for maybe the very last models??? When you say graphics are you saying some models only did basic text and others did ASCII graphics? Thanks for the help.

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tezza
January 22nd, 2018, 03:33 PM
This is my motherboard if this helps. I am still very new on the Kaypro systems so you tell me what system I have. It has Kaypro 4 on the side of the case. I thought most Kaypro systems were text only except for maybe the very last models??? When you say graphics are you saying some models only did basic text and others did ASCII graphics? Thanks for the help.



Not graphics using ascii characters. Bit-mapped ones. Here is my Kaypro 4 motherboard. Different from yours.

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Tez

tezza
January 22nd, 2018, 03:36 PM
Mine is one like this...

http://oldcomputermuseum.com/kaypro_4.html

Tez

tezza
January 22nd, 2018, 03:39 PM
BTW on my case, it definitely says Kaypro 4 rather than IV. Gotta love Kaypro's eccentric naming conventions!

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Tez

liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 03:43 PM
I see. So the games will run on mine, but wont display correctly. I am guessing Aliens and Clone are using your 160x100 graphics mode. Strange my older 4 would even try to display it in characters. Oh well, just wanted to make sure my system didn't have something faulty going on. Thanks for your help.

liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 03:44 PM
By the way, my case looks exactly the same on the side, but you have the newer model with more ports on back and a fan. Mine is obviously much more primitive and this completely makes sense now why some of these games are just not looking right.

durgadas311
January 22nd, 2018, 03:58 PM
This is my motherboard if this helps. I am still very new on the Kaypro systems so you tell me what system I have. It has Kaypro 4 on the side of the case. I thought most Kaypro systems were text only except for maybe the very last models??? When you say graphics are you saying some models only did basic text and others did ASCII graphics? Thanks for the help.

43191

The motherboard is definitely a Kayrpo II/4 vintage, limited video capabilities.

The later models (2X, 4/83, 4/84, 10, ...) had an LSI CRT controller chip and some had an additional custom LSI chip. One of the features was a large-pixel graphics mode where each character cell was divided into 2 pixels wide by 4 pixels down. By figuring out the right binary patterns, you could write each character cell appropriately and display any pattern. The ROM also provided some routines to interpret ESC codes to plot single pixels, and maybe even draw lines. I'm not sure what a Kaypro II/4 ROM will do if you send it graphics ESC codes. Probably gobble part of the ESC sequence and any extra characters just pass through to the screen.

durgadas311
January 22nd, 2018, 04:00 PM
Not graphics using ascii characters. Bit-mapped ones. Here is my Kaypro 4 motherboard. Different from yours.

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Tez

That one is a Kaypro 4/84 (2X) motherboard. That one includes the RTC, Modem, and even the hard-disk interface. Plus the advanced CRT capabilities.

liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 04:03 PM
I think this is what Larry was trying to convey to me in the other thread I started.

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?60966-New-owner-of-a-Kaypro-4-83-Some-questions&p=488811#post488811

Alphasite
January 22nd, 2018, 04:13 PM
That one is a Kaypro 4/84 (2X) motherboard. That one includes the RTC, Modem, and even the hard-disk interface. Plus the advanced CRT capabilities.

Yes, and with the adapter mentioned in another thread can be used with the FreHD hard drive emulator. I added one to my 2X.

liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 04:13 PM
So here is Aliens running on an early model Kaypro II in text mode which is the one I am trying to run and he seems to have it running just fine. Odd I can't seem to get the same results.

https://youtu.be/0NtlmA8jha8?t=112

tezza
January 22nd, 2018, 04:33 PM
Hmm.. Here is mine. You can see the graphics mode.
https://youtu.be/2LO6Pv2IXxc?t=19m45s

Maybe it's not Aliens I'm running, but some other space invader clone? It's been a while. I can't check unless I drag out the Kaypro 4 (which I can't do right now).

Tez

liqmat
January 22nd, 2018, 06:32 PM
Hmm.. Here is mine. You can see the graphics mode.
https://youtu.be/2LO6Pv2IXxc?t=19m45s

Maybe it's not Aliens I'm running, but some other space invader clone? It's been a while. I can't check unless I drag out the Kaypro 4 (which I can't do right now).

Tez

I see you responded to another Kaypro user who was having similar trouble here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?50554-KayPro-II-and-Aliens-com

Also it lists the Aliens game as a text only game here:

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Aliens_(Kaypro_video_game)

I am beginning to wonder if there aren't two different versions floating out in the wild.

VERAULT
January 23rd, 2018, 03:31 AM
This is my motherboard if this helps. I am still very new on the Kaypro systems so you tell me what system I have. It has Kaypro 4 on the side of the case. I thought most Kaypro systems were text only except for maybe the very last models??? When you say graphics are you saying some models only did basic text and others did ASCII graphics? Thanks for the help.

43191

Id have to open mine to find out, but I think the 4/83 is very much similar to the kaypro II. My Kaypro 4 has an onboard modem (so the transformer sticks out at you when you open it) and the Battery for the RTC. Yours doesnt have that so it looks like a 4/83
Kaypros naming convention is awful, the kaypro II should be the kaypro I, the kaypro 4/83 should be called the kaypro II.. Its pretty confusing if you try and follow. someone did a video covering it on youtube.

liqmat
January 23rd, 2018, 05:32 AM
Id have to open mine to find out, but I think the 4/83 is very much similar to the kaypro II. My Kaypro 4 has an onboard modem (so the transformer sticks out at you when you open it) and the Battery for the RTC. Yours doesnt have that so it looks like a 4/83
Kaypros naming convention is awful, the kaypro II should be the kaypro I, the kaypro 4/83 should be called the kaypro II.. Its pretty confusing if you try and follow. someone did a video covering it on youtube.

So the video link I posted up above with the guy running Aliens in text mode... is that a newer model than mine and is that why he can run that game in text mode and I can't properly? I just want to make sure before I call this restore project complete that everything is in proper working order. Make sure there is nothing wrong with my motherboard or something like that. I could care less otherwise playing games on this thing as they are so primitive, fun is hard to be had out of them. LOL. Although I do like a game of Ladders, the Donkey Kong text mode clone.

I also had a VERY weird thing happen last night that I have never seen in my 40 years of tinkering with computers. I formatted a DSDD floppy disk as a SSDD disk in the 22DISK utility so I could dump a SSDD TD0 image onto the floppy using Teledisk. It worked fine, BUT here comes the really weird part. When I do a directory listing of the floppy in Drive B I see completely different files than when I do a directory listing on Drive A on the SAME disk!!!??? I may have had data on it previously as a DSDD formatted disk, but still... why in the heck would the two drives read it completely different???

If you want proof on this I can make a short video. Really strange, but I am thinking it has something to do with how I formatted the disk in DISK22. Any ideas or ever run across this weird behavior? Maybe the heads on the two drives are slightly aligned differently and reading the disk differently? Like data left over from when it was a DSDD? My brain hurts after farting around on the Kaypro all day.

VERAULT
January 23rd, 2018, 05:36 AM
So the video link I posted up above with the guy running Aliens in text mode... is that a newer model than mine and is that why he can run that game in text mode and I can't properly? I just want to make sure before I call this restore project complete that everything is in proper working order. Make sure there is nothing wrong with my motherboard or something like that. I could care less otherwise playing games on this thing as they are so primitive fun is hard to be had out of them. LOL. Although I do like a game of Ladders, the Donkey Kong text mode clone.

I also had a VERY weird thing happen last night that I have never seen in my 40 years of tinkering with computers. I formatted a DSDD floppy disk as a SSDD disk in the 22DISK utility so I could dump a SSDD TD0 image onto the floppy using Teledisk. It worked fine, BUT here comes the really weird part. When I do a directory listing of the floppy in Drive B I see completely different files than when I do a directory listing on Drive A on the SAME disk!!!??? I may had data on it previously as DSDD formatted disk, but still... why in the heck would the two drives read it completely differently???

If you want proof on this I can make a short video. Really strange, but I am thinking it has something to with how I formatted the disk in DISK22. Any ideas or ever run across this weird behavior? Maybe the heads on the two drives are slightly aligned differently and reading the disk differently? Like data left over from when it was a DSDD? My brain hurts after farting around on the Kaypro all day.

Ok a couple things. I have aliens and both kaypro 4 and 4/83. If you message me friday as I am out of state right now I would be happy to test the game on both units and see the difference. I suspect the 4/83 has no graphics mode and is utilizing text instead. Just a guess but it makes sense.
as to the floppy drive... well could be disk corruption, bad ram, or your machine is a Frankenstein with two different types of floppy drive densities.

liqmat
January 23rd, 2018, 05:45 AM
Thanks for that. I will do that. I have seen two versions of this game running. One in a graphics mode like Tezza's video he posted earlier and the other like this Wiki points out, text mode only:

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Aliens_(Kaypro_video_game)

So I do not see why the early Kaypros could not run the game. Maybe they are using special text mode characters that only the newer models can display is one theory of mine.

As for the drive, I have a spare new old stock Tandon drive, so maybe I will switch them out and see what happens. I did notice that Drive B is a tad flaky. After reading a new disk for a few days it would all of the sudden say there were bad sectors on the disk. When I would go to format the disk on another drive the disk was fine. Almost like the drive is corrupting data over time. So it is acting up a bit.

VERAULT
January 23rd, 2018, 05:48 AM
old floppy drives need calibration, they need new belts, they definitely need thier heads cleaned. a 5.25" cleaning disk is essential. Try the spare drive. OR swap A and B on the cable. (dont forget the jumper)

liqmat
January 23rd, 2018, 05:51 AM
Yeah. Cleaned the heads already. A good source for new belts on those drives?

VERAULT
January 23rd, 2018, 05:52 AM
Ebay, there are sellers selling fistfuls of various sized belts for under $2.00 US. Get one of those orders and match the size up. Great for replacing belts on old cassette drives too.

liqmat
January 23rd, 2018, 06:02 AM
Thanks Verault, I look forward to seeing your results on Friday.

VERAULT
January 23rd, 2018, 06:04 AM
I have a couple flights thursday night and /I get in, in the middle of the night. Dont forget to send me a pm so I remember to check for you.

tezza
January 23rd, 2018, 12:12 PM
I also had a VERY weird thing happen last night that I have never seen in my 40 years of tinkering with computers. I formatted a DSDD floppy disk as a SSDD disk in the 22DISK utility so I could dump a SSDD TD0 image onto the floppy using Teledisk. It worked fine, BUT here comes the really weird part. When I do a directory listing of the floppy in Drive B I see completely different files than when I do a directory listing on Drive A on the SAME disk!!!??? I may have had data on it previously as a DSDD formatted disk, but still... why in the heck would the two drives read it completely different???.

This may be normal behaviour. CP/M gurus (of which I am not) may correct this but from memory if you change a disk in a CP/M machine you need to press CNTR/C to initiate a warm boot before typing DIR (or in fact before doing anything). This clears all junk out of the buffers. Did you do this before reading the disk in the A drive? If this isn't done, it's possible you'll see the directory of the disk that was being used previously.

Tez

durgadas311
January 23rd, 2018, 12:50 PM
This may be normal behaviour. CP/M gurus (of which I am not) may correct this but from memory if you change a disk in a CP/M machine you need to press CNTR/C to initiate a warm boot before typing DIR (or in fact before doing anything). This clears all junk out of the buffers. Did you do this before reading the disk in the A drive? If this isn't done, it's possible you'll see the directory of the disk that was being used previously.

Tez

This is true, although another issue is how SS vs DS is handled. The Kaypro DS diskette has it's directory on the second side, in other words in an incompatible location w.r.t. single sided. How a diskette is formatted is one thing, another is how the files are written to the disk (you can write files to a DS diskette in a SS form factor), but the OS (CP/M) must also agree on whether this diskette is SS or DS. As I recall, the older models are SS only, so if you copied files to a diskette as DS then tried to read in a SS system you would be unable to see the directory - or in other words you would read some part of the disk that is not a directory. depending on what random data is there, you may get garbage or an "empty" directory.

VERAULT
January 26th, 2018, 02:43 PM
I apologize in advance, I have a ton of things going on (TSA basically raped my luggage last night which is lots of fun.. ) So I booted up my kaypro 4 and 4/83 to load the same exact aliens.com file from the same floppy disk. And just to reiterate the kaypro 4 has the built in modem and real time clock and battery. The kaypro 4/83 runs the same disks as the kaypro II. IF you want rom revisions I have to open the machines up to take pictures, so just let me know.
Ok so here are two attached photos, again sorry the quality is abysmal. The kaypro 4 has graphics, you can see solid structures and such in the game.43286

Now the Kaypro 4/83 (again which by all my experience seems to be quite similar to the kaypro II) shows text rather than graphics and the game looks,, well unplayable.43287

So I think its obvious here, the 4/83 has no graphics support natively. And the kaypro 4 does (honestly I didnt realize this until this thread so its quite interesting)

Liqmat, it seems your machine works perfectly fine! Just as it was intended. I hope this helped.

liqmat
January 26th, 2018, 04:50 PM
I apologize in advance, I have a ton of things going on (TSA basically raped my luggage last night which is lots of fun.. ) So I booted up my kaypro 4 and 4/83 to load the same exact aliens.com file from the same floppy disk. And just to reiterate the kaypro 4 has the built in modem and real time clock and battery. The kaypro 4/83 runs the same disks as the kaypro II. IF you want rom revisions I have to open the machines up to take pictures, so just let me know.
Ok so here are two attached photos, again sorry the quality is abysmal. The kaypro 4 has graphics, you can see solid structures and such in the game.43286

Now the Kaypro 4/83 (again which by all my experience seems to be quite similar to the kaypro II) shows text rather than graphics and the game looks,, well unplayable.43287

So I think its obvious here, the 4/83 has no graphics support natively. And the kaypro 4 does (honestly I didnt realize this until this thread so its quite interesting)

Liqmat, it seems your machine works perfectly fine! Just as it was intended. I hope this helped.

Thanks for doing this. This still does not explain why there are some early Kaypro models that will play this game in text mode properly. Like I linked before this guy on Youtube is playing this game in text only mode correctly on a Kaypro II which was almost identical to the Kaypro IV/83 in capabilities. If you watch this video you will see Aliens running in pure text mode. This game ran in both graphics and text mode depending on the Kaypro model.

https://youtu.be/0NtlmA8jha8?t=112

So I did a little more digging and low and behold Wikipedia had this little tidbit of info and it all makes sense now. Apparently the Kaypro II and the Kaypro IV also referred to as the IV/83 use different screen addressing and that is why it looks fine on that guy's Kaypro II in text mode and not on the model IV/83. Too bad the programmer was not able to correct that.

From Wikipedia:

"The Kaypro IV and later the Kaypro 4 have two double-sided disks. The Kaypro 4 was released in 1984, and was usually referred to as Kaypro 4 '84, as opposed to the Kaypro IV, released one year earlier and referred to as Kaypro IV '83. The Kaypro IV uses different screen addresses than the Kaypro II, meaning software has to be specific to the model."

So really the Kaypro IV/83, in my opinion, is the least capable machine, or at least supported, of the series. It's too bad because I really like the stark look of the IV/83 the best of all the models.

VERAULT
January 26th, 2018, 05:22 PM
Thanks for doing this. This still does not explain why there are some early Kaypro models that will play this game in text mode properly. Like I linked before this guy on Youtube is playing this game in text only mode correctly on a Kaypro II which was almost identical to the Kaypro IV/83 in capabilities. If you watch this video you will see Aliens running in pure text mode. This game ran in both graphics and text mode depending on the Kaypro model.

https://youtu.be/0NtlmA8jha8?t=112

So I did a little more digging and low and behold Wikipedia had this little tidbit of info and it all makes sense now. Apparently the Kaypro II and the Kaypro IV also referred to as the IV/83 use different screen addressing and that is why it looks fine on that guy's Kaypro II in text mode and not on the model IV/83. Too bad the programmer was not able to correct that.

From Wikipedia:

"The Kaypro IV and later the Kaypro 4 have two double-sided disks. The Kaypro 4 was released in 1984, and was usually referred to as Kaypro 4 '84, as opposed to the Kaypro IV, released one year earlier and referred to as Kaypro IV '83. The Kaypro IV uses different screen addresses than the Kaypro II, meaning software has to be specific to the model."

So really the Kaypro IV/83, in my opinion, is the least capable machine, or at least supported, of the series. It's too bad because I really like the stark look of the IV/83 the best of all the models.

I think the more pertinent questions is why is that guy parading around in a furries costume? Anyone else skeeved out?
Also, honestly the image was so dark I have seen two different model II's one light greay and blue,. and some Grey just like the model 4's, I cant see what his is.

liqmat
January 26th, 2018, 05:31 PM
I think the more pertinent questions is why is that guy parading around in a furries costume? Anyone else skeeved out?
Also, honestly the image was so dark I have seen two different model II's one light greay and blue,. and some Grey just like the model 4's, I cant see what his is.

Looks like he has the early Kaypro II which had no graphics and displays Aliens in text mode properly which the IV/83, that I have. does not which I am guessing is due to what that wiki info said. At least I have an answer as to why it is so garbled on the IV/83. Not that I understand the programming side of it at all.

durgadas311
January 26th, 2018, 06:15 PM
Looks like he has the early Kaypro II which had no graphics and displays Aliens in text mode properly which the IV/83, that I have. does not which I am guessing is due to what that wiki info said. At least I have an answer as to why it is so garbled on the IV/83. Not that I understand the programming side of it at all.

There must be two different copies of aliens/invaders for the Kaypro. I have one for the H89 which is customized to the H19 graphics, so there's a third copy. Perhaps the game could have a terminal-specific segment overlayed to customize it for certain displays. Even the text-only version had to use cursor positioning codes, although both series of Kaypros used the same basic ADM-3 control codes as their foundation. And, the terminal control codes were part of the ROM so could theoretically be changed by just swapping out the ROM.

I don't see a big mystery here (other than why that guy was parading around in a costume). If the game were capable of adapting to different screens, it should have done that. But I doubt the software even tried to do that. Software of that era simply couldn't be that fancy. The garbled screen is the result of the ROM terminal emulation failing to understand the graphics codes and just "punting". I've seen that sort of thing before, when a program was setup for a different terminal than the one it was running on.

liqmat
January 26th, 2018, 06:36 PM
I don't see a big mystery here (other than why that guy was parading around in a costume).

It's a big mystery to me as I never have had the pleasure in dealing with a Kaypro or CP/M until a few months ago. So learning as I go. The costume, on the other hand, is so David Lynch(esque). I love it.

VERAULT
January 26th, 2018, 07:07 PM
It's a big mystery to me as I never have had the pleasure in dealing with a Kaypro or CP/M until a few months ago. So learning as I go. The costume, on the other hand, is so David Lynch(esque). I love it.

well I have already proved that the same version shows with and without graphics. BUt I ahve seen videos of people having the wrong boards in their kaypro models. do you have a photo of your board and ROM revisions?

liqmat
January 26th, 2018, 07:17 PM
od you have a photo of your board and rom revisions?

Yep. Here is a photo of my board from another post.

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?60966-New-owner-of-a-Kaypro-4-83-Some-questions&p=488795#post488795

VERAULT
January 27th, 2018, 02:40 PM
ok, if you want maybe tomorrow I will open mine up and check the rom versions and board number. my advice would be to reach out to costume mc wolfie over there and see if he can do the same. I Get the feeling his board isn't right for his machine.

VERAULT
January 28th, 2018, 07:09 AM
Ok I took some more photos of ROM versions and board marking:43329433304333143332
according to Don Maslins kaypro ROM site http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/roms/kaypro/index.html my two roms in the picture 81-146 and 81-232 are listing as for the Kaypro II AND Kaypro 4/83

I really think this guy on your video had either a different ROM or a different logic board installed. Both my Kaypros I bought from an older gentleman who repaired these things in the early 80's. He explained to me that alot of times you would just shove in a board to get the machine to boot then reconfigure the floppies to work. I am guessing there are alot of frankenstein kaypros' out there.

Both your 4/83 (you should post your rom versions just to verify) and mine behave the same way, I am expecting that they should.

Also my board has a number stenciled in it of PC81-240A and another number that looks hand drawn or silk screened as 35370... serial number?

Tezzas' Kaypro 4 is like my other unit with a modem (you can see the transformer on the board pic and the RJ-11 jack on the back as well as where the RTC battery should be, he has two wires running to another power source I am guessing) so his SHOULD have graphics.


Are you still doubting this Liqmat?

durgadas311
January 28th, 2018, 09:17 AM
Not all logic boards are compatible with the case. The arrangement of ports on the back changed, so a different logic board might not fit. However, I believe Kaypro did not always ship the exact same hardware under the same label. But, I think it is just as likely that the version of software on the video was different than what you are running. Main board 81-240 is listed as being for the II/4(83). Note, the 4/83 and 4/84 are totally different main boards. Both are commonly referred to as "4". There is a technical document on bitsavers, "Kaypro Technical Manual 1484F", which shows the official part numbers used in various models.

Alphasite
January 28th, 2018, 01:12 PM
Not all logic boards are compatible with the case. The arrangement of ports on the back changed, so a different logic board might not fit. However, I believe Kaypro did not always ship the exact same hardware under the same label. But, I think it is just as likely that the version of software on the video was different than what you are running. Main board 81-240 is listed as being for the II/4(83). Note, the 4/83 and 4/84 are totally different main boards. Both are commonly referred to as "4". There is a technical document on bitsavers, "Kaypro Technical Manual 1484F", which shows the official part numbers used in various models.

I've run into this. I've got a Kaypro 2X, 4/84, and 10 that all have the same motherboard and all have the RTC, populated HD interface, and modem. Everything I've read said the 2X was the same as the 4/84 except for the modem, but I've also read in a couple of different places that Kaypro would use what they had in stock for the later systems so sometimes you'd get lucky and get a fully populated motherboard. I guess I got lucky on my 2X and 4/84 or someone swapped the motherboards at some point.

I've also got a 10 that has an older motherboard with the HD connector in the center and it doesn't have modem (I can't remember whether it has the RTC).

tezza
January 28th, 2018, 02:27 PM
Tezzas' Kaypro 4 is like my other unit with a modem (you can see the transformer on the board pic and the RJ-11 jack on the back as well as where the RTC battery should be, he has two wires running to another power source I am guessing) so his SHOULD have graphics.

This is right. I replaced the soldered in battery with a battery pack, which I've velcroed to the inside of the case. I DO NOT LIKE soldered in batteries, especially when the unit may several years before an internal check. I've seen too many wrecked mainboards.

durgadas311
January 28th, 2018, 03:33 PM
I've run into this. I've got a Kaypro 2X, 4/84, and 10 that all have the same motherboard and all have the RTC, populated HD interface, and modem. Everything I've read said the 2X was the same as the 4/84 except for the modem, but I've also read in a couple of different places that Kaypro would use what they had in stock for the later systems so sometimes you'd get lucky and get a fully populated motherboard. I guess I got lucky on my 2X and 4/84 or someone swapped the motherboards at some point.

I've also got a 10 that has an older motherboard with the HD connector in the center and it doesn't have modem (I can't remember whether it has the RTC).

Yeah, I have a 2X (no chips - i.e. empty sockets - for modem, RTC, or HD interface) which I later had to replace the main board in. The new main board was essentially the same but fully populated (and with the "universal ROM"). But my 2X case says "2" with paper stickers adding the "X". The case could not have been for the original II since the I/O ports are the newer arrangement. I get the impression there was a lot of hodge-podge out of manufacturing. Not to mention what people might have done later to keep things running. But cutting new holes for I/O ports in that steel case would have been a pain. It's hard to imaging anyone going to that much trouble.

That technical manual I mentioned has been very interesting, revealing lots about different models.