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jacobtohahn
November 7th, 2018, 04:59 PM
Hey,
Just today, I got my hands on this cool 8 drive that I plan to use with my Zenith Data Systems Z-110 to transfer data between 5.25 and 8 inch disks.
49220
49222
49225
When I bought it, I already knew that it was very dirty, and that it was also missing two capacitors for the power circuitry, which I have already bought and am replacing tomorrow, but there are a few more issues that I had not anticipated that I could use some advice to try and fix.
First, the belt on the back of the drive had become brittle and snapped. Im not sure where I can get a new belt or what kind I need. Also, the power switch on the front of the enclosure doesnt click back and forth like it should, and instead loosely moves between the on and off positions, as if its not catching the physical switch mechanism. Id love to know what kind of switch I could use to replace it, and if there is a way that I could short past the switch until I get a replacement. I have photos of the belt and switch attached below. Just ask if you need any more info or photos!
Thanks!
Belt (w/ 8 disk for scale):
49221

Front of switch:
49223

Back of switch:
49224

Chuck(G)
November 7th, 2018, 06:24 PM
The switch looks like an ordinary illuminated rocker switch Like this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rocker-Switch-ON-OFF-Bright-Bipolar-28x10mm-250V-15A-3-Terminals-RED-U6V4/183477691881?epid=25012568687&hash=item2ab81f65e9:g:bR0AAOSwkfRbvGH8:rk:48:pf:0) However, you'll need to measure the hole size to get an exact fit.

As far as the rest of the drive goes, it would be helpful if you could post the model on the nameplate. CDC made endless varieties of these things.

jacobtohahn
November 7th, 2018, 06:39 PM
The switch looks like an ordinary illuminated rocker switch Like this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rocker-Switch-ON-OFF-Bright-Bipolar-28x10mm-250V-15A-3-Terminals-RED-U6V4/183477691881?epid=25012568687&hash=item2ab81f65e9:g:bR0AAOSwkfRbvGH8:rk:48:pf:0) However, you'll need to measure the hole size to get an exact fit.

As far as the rest of the drive goes, it would be helpful if you could post the model on the nameplate. CDC made endless varieties of these things.
The switch looks good, thanks. I’ll be sure to measure it.
Here’s a photo of the information on the drive, made by Magnetic Peripherals, Inc, which was a subsidiary of CDC. I drew over the image to make the stamped-in numbers more readable:
49228

Chuck(G)
November 7th, 2018, 07:21 PM
This is the basic maintenance manual for several variations of CDC 8" floppy drives (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/discs/floppy/75897465_9404B_floppyMaint.pdf) Yours is included: see page iv.

jacobtohahn
November 8th, 2018, 03:37 AM
This is the basic maintenance manual for several variations of CDC 8" floppy drives (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/discs/floppy/75897465_9404B_floppyMaint.pdf) Yours is included: see page iv.
Thanks for the manual. I can’t seem to find much information on the belt. Do you know where I could find a potential replacement?

Chuck(G)
November 8th, 2018, 07:44 AM
It's not going to be easy. If I recall correctly, these are rubber-reinforced fabric belts. At this point, they're probably strictly a custom item. There is a forum member, MicrocomputerSolutions, who specializes/specialized in repair of 8" drives. If he's still around, you might drop him a PM.

jacobtohahn
November 8th, 2018, 02:03 PM
It's not going to be easy. If I recall correctly, these are rubber-reinforced fabric belts. At this point, they're probably strictly a custom item. There is a forum member, MicrocomputerSolutions, who specializes/specialized in repair of 8" drives. If he's still around, you might drop him a PM.
Thanks, I did that. Apparently he hasn’t been online in months. Any other potential solutions in case he doesn’t reply?

Chuck(G)
November 8th, 2018, 02:17 PM
Well, there's this old discussion from Lorne on Herb Johnson's retrotechnology site (http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drivebelts.html).

The guy referenced by Lorne is isellprojectorbelts (https://www.ebay.com/str/projectorbeltssuper88mm16mm) and is still doing business. He won't know from beans about CDC drives, but if you provide him the exact dimensions of your belt, he might be able to find a replacement.

jacobtohahn
November 8th, 2018, 04:50 PM
Thanks for all the info! I was able to find a part number for the belt and contact a company that reports 11 in stock, so I’ll have to wait for a reply. I also contacted isellprojectorbelts.

Chuck(G)
November 8th, 2018, 05:25 PM
Good luck! It sounds as if you've got a handle on things.

jacobtohahn
November 19th, 2018, 05:05 PM
Here I am again. I’ve completely repaired the drive, new belt, capacitors and everything. I also crimped my own IDC cable to connect to my Zenith Data Systems Z-100. The drive powers up and the spindle rotates, and if connected to the computer and a disk is installed, the head “clamps down”. However, the computer doesn’t recognize the drive in Z-DOS at all. I’m not exactly sure what to do, and there is a 4 switch block (red block in the 3rd picture) on the drive PCB. The head motor seems to want to move, as it rotates just a fraction, but doesn’t move any further. I can move it with my fingers, but it definitely has some resistance. Any ideas on what I can do?
Photo spam:
49428494294943049431494324943349434

Chuck(G)
November 19th, 2018, 07:16 PM
See here (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/discs/floppy/75897465_9404B_floppyMaint.pdf), page 31 (PWA diagram). Note that you have 4 DIP switches instead 4 shunts. One of these needs to be closed to access the drive. On PCs, this is normally the second drive select, but I'm familiar neither with your cable nor with the Z100, so your mileage may vary.

jacobtohahn
November 19th, 2018, 07:49 PM
Thanks, that’s helpful. I must have missed that when I read the manual earlier. I have, however, closed one of them and didn’t get much progress. I’ll try again with each one tomorrow, but I’m not sure which address I’d need. The cable is just a 50 pin Shugart card edge connector to a 50 pin IDC connector that I put together myself. I’m not exactly sure if software could be an issue, either. The computer runs Z-DOS, which is Zenith’s version of MS-DOS, but I also happen to have an IBM compatible MS-DOS that runs on my Zenith. I’ll try that with the drive also.

Chuck(G)
November 19th, 2018, 09:08 PM
You'll have to figure out which drive select the Z100 expects--that's something I've never fooled with. If you get nowhere, there are some things we can try.

MikeS
November 19th, 2018, 10:59 PM
If it's the only drive on the cable, why not close all 4 drive select switches for now.

Touching a grounded wire to the STEP pin (36) of the interface should move the head; if not, try it with the DIRECTION pin (34) grounded.

Congratulations on getting this far; how did you ever manage to find that belt?

jacobtohahn
November 20th, 2018, 06:51 AM
If it's the only drive on the cable, why not close all 4 drive select switches for now.

Touching a grounded wire to the STEP pin (36) of the interface should move the head; if not, try it with the DIRECTION pin (34) grounded.

Congratulations on getting this far; how did you ever manage to find that belt?

Once I get home today, I’ll try your trick for moving the head. I had tried to close all four switches, with no luck. Maybe there’s something else going on?
As for the belt, I was able to get it with lots of luck. A company called Compro Computer Systems somehow had 11 of the original belts in stock, and I just received mine yesterday and it works great.

Chuck(G)
November 20th, 2018, 07:38 AM
A lot of what Mike said holds true in general. To test the accessibility of the drive, you don't need a computer at all--just by grounding various inputs you can observe the function.

jacobtohahn
November 20th, 2018, 07:49 PM
Hey,
Until recently, everything seemed to be working just fine on the drive. I tested my cable to see if there were any shorts (none) and I tested the head with a grounded wire, and it didn’t move (but it tried). I lubricated every piece that the head slides across, and it moves a lot easier now. However, after plugging the drive back in to test the head again, none of the interface pins would provide any reaction. I checked the logic board and found that one of the chips, the largest on the board (pictured below) was so hot when power was applied that it almost burned my finger. No capacitors, resistors, or any other components seem damaged. I think this might be the end of the line for this drive unless I can find a new chip to test with. Anyone have any information on it at all?
49477
49478

Chuck(G)
November 20th, 2018, 09:18 PM
That's too bad; that IC is likely a custom one for this drive.

jacobtohahn
November 21st, 2018, 03:04 AM
That's too bad; that IC is likely a custom one for this drive.

I’m not quite sure how, but luck seems to be helping me out a bit! There just happens to be a listing for a very very similar MPI drive on eBay, for much cheaper than I would have thought, with the exact same PCB model. I may just replace the entire drive and sell the one I currently have to make up for the cost of the new drive (so I’ll probably only have a net loss of 20 bucks or so), as my current one is very dusty.
I’ll post again in a week or so when I receive the new drive.

Chuck(G)
November 21st, 2018, 09:03 AM
You're going to sell a drive with a bad PCB? Why not keep it for spare parts?

jacobtohahn
November 21st, 2018, 01:47 PM
You're going to sell a drive with a bad PCB? Why not keep it for spare parts?

Yeah, that’s actually a good idea, especially now that I’m getting more into computers with 8” drives. I’ll see what I can do with the parts.

shank
December 12th, 2018, 07:21 PM
it sounds like you don't know much about drive subsystems... my apologies if i'm telling you what you already know.

have you ever seen your zenith system or one like it actually work with an 8" drive? i'm asking if you know what to expect the drive to do when it's working properly, what it will sound like? is your media any good? 8" media today is pretty iffy, it's old, was never meant to last this long... did you clean the head on the drive? be very careful with lubrication. it may help now but can cause you big problems down the line especially if the worm gear that moves the head starts spraying it all over the place. yeah, i've seen this happen.

these drives can fail for a number of reasons. i fixed a lot of CDC drives many years ago and they go out of alignment easily. this includes the head alignment--making sure that the head centers on the proper track, and the track zero switch which indicates to the FDC that the drive is on track zero. track zero provides the FDC a starting reference for when it begins to step the head in to find the directory, or whatever.. the very first thing the fdc will have the drive do is to find track zero. if the track zero switch is way out it'll never find anything.

head alignment was done with an o'scope and an alignment diskette. these diskettes were written on special machines that wrote the tracks in specific patterns so you could use a scope and alignment program to zero in the drive (using a "cat's eye" pattern). probably unobtanium now. they are not reproducible on a floppy drive. track zero you can probably do with a known good diskette made for your system and a scope, but not without understanding how the drive system (FDC and drive) functions.

seems like there was a micro-switch and push-rod assembly in these CDCs that sensed when the drive door was shut and i keep thinking there was a problem keeping those things working properly--like the push-rod bent. some CDC drives locked those doors when using the drive. surprised lots of users when they went to eject their diskette and the door would not open!

if you can find drives that were made for your system and are configured for it, that would be the best thing. get one that works along with a known good diskette with something on it, paying more if you need to, get your system working and then you can start to learn about and add additional drives, fixing or re-configuring as necessary.

i never used a zenith system so i can't tell you any more about what it expects. CDC, Shugart, Tandem, and other drive manufacturers provided units to many different companies. often, media was not interchangeable because of how the format was written, number of sectors and such, varied between operating systems. jumpers/dip switches were not always there to set drive unit numbers... sometimes they reconfigured the drive to work in different ways. been a long time for me and i don't recall exactly on the CDC. some used pull up resistor packs on the data/select lines in the last drive on the cable. this is called termination. not using termination when called for will keep a good drive from working reliably or maybe not at all. at a minimum get a service manual for your zenith, preferably one that has a theory of operation in it and read about the floppy subsystem and what it expects. you'll get hints there on how to set up a drive. get a service manual for whatever drive you end up with, and read about the different ways to set it up, how the switches are set and such, termination... don't go flipping switches if you don't know what they do. this is the fastest way to blow something.

these are not complicated to work on, but you have to know how they work to fix or configure them. or, be really, really lucky!

shank
December 13th, 2018, 10:06 AM
I just looked at the CDC manual Chuck(G) gave a link for. there is a theory of operation as well as descriptions of what the switches and jumpers do on the drive. also, it touches on various alignments, including the index alignment that i didn't mention. the FDC needs to know from where to begin counting sectors on a track and the index indicates that. the theory of op section is quite good. i didn't mention hard vs soft sectoring in my original post, but the theory of op explains what this is. be sure that you configure your drive to use the sectoring you zenith system needs.

i also found a reference to the drive assembly you have: https://www.scribd.com/document/76024463/Micro-6502-Journal-February-1980 it's in an ad on page 7. not a lot of info there, but it gives you a starting point if you want to chase more data about how RNB used their drives.

nothing was plug and play back then. everything had to be configured by hand, especially drives. that's one thing that makes the old gear harder to work with, but i think it also makes it more interesting and more gratifying when you get it working.

in my experience the Shugart 8" drives were the most reliable and easiest to work with.

jacobtohahn
January 21st, 2019, 08:37 PM
Wow, all this is pretty in-depth. Ive been pretty preoccupied with other things, but Im currently reverse engineering the power supply board in the chassis. It was almost falling apart and the voltages were questionable. Simple fix using some 78xx ICs. After that Ill be sure to clean the extra lubricant, thanks for the tip! I have in fact seen a Z-100 using an 8 drive. The port on the back is specifically made for 8 drives and connects directly to the FDD controller, which I found the datasheet for. Once I have all of the power and stuff working and I test the head movement manually, Ill try and interface with the Z-100. Most of the drive seems fine, the track 0 switch works, the micro switch for the door works, motor spins fine, new belt, etc. I do have an oscilloscope and the maintenance manual has oscilloscope images in it. If I have to Ill check those out. The only thing Id be worried about is the alignment of the switches. Did this drive specifically need an alignment diskette? As for actual media, I dont have any software on 8. All (at least most) of the Zenith Z-100 software was on 5.25 disks, as 5.25 drives were already in the system. I do, however, have 2 boxes of NOS sealed diskettes. One of the boxes (both of which I opened) is for IBM Diskette 1. Very cool stuff.

Chuck(G)
January 21st, 2019, 08:43 PM
If it was my PSU, I'd be concerned about using a 78xx linear regulator, as they're normally rated for about an amp--and that's without a lot of headroom (i.e. with a much higher line voltage than the load voltage, the IC's going to make a lot of heat. It would seem that an 8" drive would put a fairly hefty load on one.

There are better alternatives today--and you could well go to a switching regulator.

shank
January 22nd, 2019, 07:01 AM
to align the track zero switch to spec you do need an alignment disk. same for head radial. with a known good diskette you can wing it, but with blank disks you can't since there's no format on them.

if you aren't interested in interchanging a diskette between drives, then it doesn't matter so much since your drive should be able to read what it wrote assuming everything else is working. the alignment diskette was used to make sure that what you wrote in one drive could be read in another drive, or when you wrote on a diskette from another drive you didn't damage the data on it because the head was not exactly where it should be.

look in your z-100 manual to see whether it needs hard or soft sectoring and then make sure the appropriate dip switch on the drive is set accordingly. check the other dip switches to make sure they're set properly for you computer.

just because you have NOS diskettes doesn't mean they're going to work anymore, or if they do that' they'll work for long. FYI.

when you complete your power supply rebuild hang a scope probe on the output/s and make sure that the DC is clean. there should be a spec in the CDC manual for the voltages.. e.g., +/- 10% or like that.

good luck with your project!