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strangel
May 8th, 2003, 10:02 PM
I have an Apple Lisa 2 running MacWorks Plus 1.0.8. When the system is starting, everything goes OK until the "Welcome to Macintosh" box pops up. About 1 second after that box comes up, another box pops up which says "Can't load a needed resource." and has a [Restart] button. Of course, if I restart, it just does it again...
There has been only one exception. I attempted to show a friend of mine this behavior one day, and the Lisa booted up and immediately opened up a drawing program. I can't remember any more than that because I was so stunned that something different happened :) Well, I fiddled with it for a second, then exited the program, and the system restarted, and greeted me with the same error as before.
Will I need to reload software, or is there a fix I can do without having the install disk(s), or is there a way to get more information?
Thanks for your help :)
Jim

Erik
May 9th, 2003, 05:46 AM
I'm not all too familiar with MacWorks (I haven't really gotten a chance to clean up and play with my Lisa systems) but I am pretty sure that your best bet is to reload the OS. The missing resource may just be the tip of an iceberg.

The OS disks aren't too hard to come by if you aren't picky about them being original. I frequently see CDs for sale on eBay, for instance, that contain the entire Lisa and early Mac software library from Apple. Some are Apple originals, some are copies but I'm pretty sure that Apple has released the rights to most early versions (up to Mac OS 6 or so.)

I've also seen similar CDs with Lisa only software.

For any of these you'll need a Mac with a 3.5" floppy drive and a CD ROM drive to make disks for the Lisa.

I hope this helps.

Erik

Jon Jarmon
May 9th, 2003, 02:15 PM
You have a LISA 2 Amazing.I wish that I could find one.I have 2 of the first Macintoshes serial# 2336 and 5132 on the logic board.
I downloaded the Mac Works and all the LISA software(As well as all the early macintosh operating software)while it was still available on the internet.Unfortunately Apple has stopped MOST web sites like Mac512,Applefritter and the mothership from having these old operating systems available for download,yet don't host these early operating systems themselves.What a shame.What harm does it do to Apple.
All it does is prevent anyone who finds an antique from getting it operational.I had to repair a 400k Sony microdrive on one of my first Mac's because the lubricant had solidified.Actually I had to replace some power transistors on the Ananlo boards of both of these machines to get them working Again.Now I have 100's of titles for the Early Mac as well as 3 external 400k drives,2 Imagewriter printers,the Original Keyboard,Mouse,Audio tapes.I am only missing the Manual and the Original box.Not bad though.I have a lot of the later toaster macs as well
such as 2 Mac 512's,3 Mac Pluses,3 Mac Se's,1 Mac SE30,1 Mac Classic and Classic 2.
I have heard that the first model of the LISA recently sold on EBay for $10,000.However the LISA2 and Mac XL are far more practical.

Erik
May 9th, 2003, 02:19 PM
I have heard that the first model of the LISA recently sold on EBay for $10,000.However the LISA2 and Mac XL are far more practical.

That was quite a machine and quite an auction. I don't think that's quite a realistic price for those, but a functional Lisa with twiggy drives, software, manuals and all original parts is certainly a valuable item.

I've heard some say that those Lisa's are rarer then Apple I's.

Erik

Jon Jarmon
May 9th, 2003, 02:32 PM
Hi Eric.You have to watch out about counterfeit Apple 1's because there were only around 200 sold.I saw a counterfeit Apple 1 on Ebay(Someone had merely put all the guts of a Apple 2 E in a wood case.Why?
because the Apple 1 is the most desired collectable.They are valued up to $30,000.In fact it would be fairly easy to make a nice counterfeit because the circuit board,schematics and ROM listing are on the internet.
An Operational LISA 1 is EXTREMELY hard to find.
Someone was working on a Lisa Emulator but I don't think it's going to be completed.I do use a screenshot of the LISA as my desktops background(Its pretty cool!)

Erik
May 9th, 2003, 02:46 PM
I've actually got 3 Apple Lisa's (2/10s, mostly) and none of them work perfectly. One doesn't work at all. . . yet.

I hope to find the time to restore at least one or two soon.

As for the counterfeit apple I, it would be pretty hard to pull off effectively. There are some chips that simply aren't available to make it anymore.

That and the fact that the boards are very recognizable to those who are familiar with them would make it hard. If I were ever to be in the market for one, I know several experts who would verify authenticity with nearly 100% certainty.

Of course, I don't think I am going to have 30K to spend on an old computer anytime soon. . . :)

Erik

Jon Jarmon
May 9th, 2003, 03:06 PM
Wow Eric you have 3 Apple LISA's (Mostly 2/10's)right on!.
I sure hope that you get those working.
Sun remarketing I think still has a MacXL for sale for $600 refurbished.
Just to let you know.
One problem is that it doesn't have the Profile hard drive that is necessary to make it operational.Glad that you know some experts to identify counterfeit stuff from the original.There are those trying to pawn off fakes.Good luck on fixing those antiques.The 400k sony drives had a problem that the lubricant would solidify(It happened to my original Mac).
A simple fix is to use Alcohol to dissolve the mess and I used WD 40 to lubricate the parts(Don't spray it on the circuit board or read/write heads).

CP/M User
May 12th, 2003, 10:18 PM
Hi Jon,

I know one of the differences with the Apple Lisa 2 from the Lisa 1 is the
disk drives (3.5" on the Lisa 2 to the 5.25" on the Lisa 1), but would you
(or anyone who knows there Apple computers) know the differences
between the Lisa 2 are from the Original Mac? I would assume that the
Lisa 2 has more memory would it?

Cheers.

Jon Jarmon
May 12th, 2003, 10:50 PM
Dear CP/M user- I have never owned a LISA 2,However It obviously had a different ROM than the Macintosh,as well as expansion slots,Logic Board,Cathode ray tube,memory,power supply etc.I know that The 400k Sony Microdrives in the first Original Macs(Jan 24 1984) are DIFFERENT than the ones in the Mac512 and Mac128(both introduced in Sept 1984).If someone tried to use the later 400k Sony drives in the Original Mac,they would find that they would not work right because of the earlier Macintosh ROM's( I know because I've tried it).

CP/M User
May 13th, 2003, 01:17 AM
"Jon Jarmon"wrote in message:

> I have never owned a LISA 2,However It obviously had a different
> ROM than the Macintosh,as well as expansion slots,Logic Board,
> Cathode ray tube,memory,power supply etc.I know that The 400k
> Sony Microdrives in the first Original Macs(Jan 24 1984) are
> DIFFERENT than the ones in the Mac512 and Mac128(both introduced
> in Sept 1984).If someone tried to use the later 400k Sony drives in
> the Original Mac,they would find that they would not work right
> because of the earlier Macintosh ROM's( I know because I've tried it).

Hi Jon,

That interesting to say the least. I'd imagine it would be quite frustrating
for anyone to just buy a computer & find the Sony Microdrives don't
work on it! :-(

It's interesting to see that the Apple Lisa 1 in my book has support for
CP/M as well (I'm guessing that's CP/M-68 the 16 bit Operating System
written for the 68xxx based machines!) :-)

Cheers.

Jon Jarmon
May 13th, 2003, 01:27 AM
Hey CP/M User have you ever seen the Xerox Alto Workstation that inspired the Apple Lisa1 and later the Macintosh?
It's amazing because In 1973 many leading computer scientists in the world developed the Xerox Alto workstation in 1973.It had a 3 button roller mouse with metal feeler sensor brushes,a Graphics User Interface,Smalltalk environment,Ethernet networking,The first Laser Printer and Midi interface.
Essentially it was a prototype personal computer like todays.
I think that this is perhaps the Ultimate collectors item.

CP/M User
May 13th, 2003, 01:50 AM
"Jon Jarmon" wrote in message:

Hi Jon,

> Hey CP/M User have you ever seen the Xerox Alto Workstation
> that inspired the Apple Lisa1 and later the Macintosh?

I know of the machine, I can tell you I haven't seen it physically,
but if your referning to pictures, I'm not quite sure. I have a picture
of a Xerox Network (which has a picture of GUI based network).
The machine is refered to the 8000 series (which I persume to
be Xerox based) & the Network is Eithernet based. The picture
doesn't show the entire system (unfortunately).

> It's amazing because In 1973 many leading computer scientists
> in the world developed the Xerox Alto workstation in 1973.It
> had a 3 button roller mouse with metal feeler sensor brushes,a
> Graphics User Interface,Smalltalk environment,Ethernet networking,
> The first Laser Printer and Midi interface.

I guess we're talking about the same machine then! :-)

> Essentially it was a prototype personal computer like todays.
> I think that this is perhaps the Ultimate collectors item.

I wonder if the PDP computers might of have had some inspiration
towards it! :-)

Cheers.

Erik
May 13th, 2003, 06:14 AM
Hi Jon,

I know one of the differences with the Apple Lisa 2 from the Lisa 1 is the
disk drives (3.5" on the Lisa 2 to the 5.25" on the Lisa 1), but would you
(or anyone who knows there Apple computers) know the differences
between the Lisa 2 are from the Original Mac? I would assume that the
Lisa 2 has more memory would it?

It depends on what you're talking about here.

The Lisa was originally released before the Mac. When the Mac came out the Lisa 2 was "upgraded" to a Max XL and sold as such. The difference between a Lisa 2 and a Mac XL is pretty much all ROMs. They were the original Mac's big brother (512K vs. 128K, bigger screen, hard drive) and were far more expensive.

You could never mistake an original Mac for a Mac XL. The original Mac was far smaller, etc.

Confusing a Mac XL for a Lisa 2 and vice-versa is easy. Unless it was badged (some weren't as Lisa 2 owners could perform their own upgrades) you'd have to look at the ROMs or get it to boot.

Erik

CP/M User
May 13th, 2003, 07:15 PM
"Erik" wrotein message:

> It depends on what you're talking about here.

> The Lisa was originally released before the Mac. When the Mac
> came out the Lisa 2 was "upgraded" to a Max XL and sold as such.
> The difference between a Lisa 2 and a Mac XL is pretty much all
> ROMs. They were the original Mac's big brother (512K vs. 128K,
> bigger screen, hard drive) and were far more expensive.

> You could never mistake an original Mac for a Mac XL. The original
> Mac was far smaller, etc.

> Confusing a Mac XL for a Lisa 2 and vice-versa is easy. Unless it
> was badged (some weren't as Lisa 2 owners could perform their
> own upgrades) you'd have to look at the ROMs or get it to boot.

Yes, I had the impression that the Lisa 2 came out after the original Mac
did.

Cheers.

Erik
May 13th, 2003, 07:26 PM
Yes, I had the impression that the Lisa 2 came out after the original Mac did.

I'm pretty sure the Lisa 1 and Lisa 2 both pre-dated the original Macintosh. The Lisa 2 and Mac were both released the same year, but I think the Mac was later.

The Max XL version of the Lisa 2 certainly came after the Mac.


Erik

CP/M User
May 13th, 2003, 09:36 PM
"Erik" wrote in message:

>> Yes, I had the impression that the Lisa 2 came out after the
>> original Mac did.

> I'm pretty sure the Lisa 1 and Lisa 2 both pre-dated the
> original Macintosh. The Lisa 2 and Mac were both released the
> same year, but I think the Mac was later.

> The Max XL version of the Lisa 2 certainly came after the Mac.

Ah, okay. I've done some research here:
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=265
which states the Lisa 2 came out in Jan 1984 & lost it's name to become
the Mac XL in 1985. However, the Mac XL could be have become a
Lisa 2 when the ROM chips were replaced. I get the impression from
this site that the Mac's lacked a Hard Disk until the Mac II & Mac SE
came out in 1987.

Cheers.

Jon Jarmon
May 13th, 2003, 09:54 PM
Hi CP/M User .The Macintosh was released on January 24,1984.
I believe that the LISA 2 was released on the same date.However
It did not have the fanfare 1984 superbowl TV commercial.There were magazine ads under Apples Supermicro systems showing off both the Mac and LISA systems
I downloaded a LISA 1 (1983)commercial from the Internet about 6 months.
It's kind of cool!

CP/M User
May 14th, 2003, 04:06 AM
"Jon Jarmon"

Hi Jon,

>Hi CP/M User .The Macintosh was released on January 24,1984.

> I believe that the LISA 2 was released on the same date.
> However It did not have the fanfare 1984 superbowl TV
> commercial.There were magazine ads under Apples
> Supermicro systems showing off both the Mac and LISA systems

> I downloaded a LISA 1 (1983)commercial from the Internet
> about 6 months.

> It's kind of cool!

Gee, if Apple had backfired with the Apple II computers, then
they might of shut down. But then you don't want to start
business with a very expensive machine. :-)

As I might of stated before in here, a lot of people complained
when the Amstrad CPC6128 came out. It had a disk drive &
128kb of memory. The CPC664 came out a couple of months
before hand with the built in disk drive, but only had 64k!

What Apple have done there is worse (if they did release two
machines on the same day!). The Lisa 2 would have been
seen as a gamble to see if it would take off & if it's price was
too high the Mac would be their altermate bet (to keep them
going).

Cheers.

qu1j0t3
March 12th, 2004, 08:25 PM
"Jon Jarmon" wrote in message:

Hi Jon,

> Hey CP/M User have you ever seen the Xerox Alto Workstation
> that inspired the Apple Lisa1 and later the Macintosh?

...

> Essentially it was a prototype personal computer like todays.
> I think that this is perhaps the Ultimate collectors item.

I wonder if the PDP computers might of have had some inspiration
towards it! :-)

Cheers.

The Alto's microcode implemented the 16-bit DG Nova instruction set, with extensions. The Nova was one of the PDP-11's most interesting and vigorous competitors, and its CPU, having also been designed by Ed DeCastro, indeed owes much to the earlier (12-bit) DEC PDP-8. More information on the Nova can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova. The PDP-8 and Nova had simple but dense instruction formats which embodied several advantages of what we today associate with RISC (reduced instruction set) architectures.

The DEC PDP-11 on the other hand was designed on CISC (complex) lines, with a highly orthogonal and rich instruction set ideal for both assembler and HLL coding. More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11. Sometimes referred to as the One True CPU, the PDP-11's influence is plainly seen in the later 32-bit DEC VAX and 68000.

The Alto is discussed further at Al Kossow's site, http://www.spies.com/~aek/alto/ and an amazing Alto restoration is documented here: http://www.ainotl.com/alto.html. I wish I could give my PDP-11s this kind of attention!

qu1j0t3
March 12th, 2004, 08:30 PM
I get the impression from
this site that the Mac's lacked a Hard Disk until the Mac II & Mac SE
came out in 1987.

The II and SE were the first machines which Apple shipped with internal hard disks as a factory option. The earlier Mac Plus introduced built-in SCSI circa 1986. Apple introduced the new Hierarchical File System (HFS) and a 20MB hard disk (the HD 20 SC) at the same time. Third party modifications could put a hard disk inside the Mac Plus case (IIRC).

But even before SCSI, there were many non-Apple hard disk solutions for Macs - I remember Corvus and others.

CP/M User
March 13th, 2004, 12:38 AM
"qu1j0t3" wrote:

>> I get the impression from this site that the
>> Mac's lacked a Hard Disk until the Mac II &
>> Mac SE came out in 1987.

> The II and SE were the first machines which
> Apple shipped with internal hard disks as a
> factory option. The earlier Mac Plus introduced
> built-in SCSI circa 1986. Apple introduced the
> new Hierarchical File System (HFS) and a
> 20MB hard disk (the HD 20 SC) at the same
> time. Third party modifications could put a hard
> disk inside the Mac Plus case (IIRC).

Actually IIRC when I wrote that statment above,
it was ment to suggest that I have indeed played
with a Mac Plus with a 20Mb External Hard Disk
(well seperate from the Monitor - or whatever! ;-).
At the time I played with this system, I thought
it was in very good condition (can't remember
when it was I played with it between - 1997 ->
1999). Lots of Macs used to get a hard time at
the school I went to, might of also been the
trend at others as well.

> But even before SCSI, there were many
> non-Apple hard disk solutions for Macs - I
> remember Corvus and others.

I know of the Corvus Concept through my
Computer Guide book. I see you could even
plug an 8in floppy to that thing, so maybe
Mac could support that too?

Cheers,
CP/M User.

qu1j0t3
March 13th, 2004, 03:13 AM
I know of the Corvus Concept through my
Computer Guide book. I see you could even
plug an 8in floppy to that thing, so maybe
Mac could support that too?

Cheers,
CP/M User.

I never saw a Corvus floppy, but I am sure there were 8" solutions out there. The Corvus units I saw in operation were typically 5 or 10MB disks connected through the Mac's floppy port (or fast serial port?) These disks were even networked to workgroups as a file serving resource. I recall they used the MFS flat file system. This was before the Mac Plus, and the consequent standardisation on SCSI for mass storage, of course.

CP/M User
March 13th, 2004, 11:46 AM
"qu1j0t3" wrote:

> I never saw a Corvus floppy, but I am
> sure there were 8" solutions out there.

Actually the Corvus Concept doesn't have
a floppy disk as standard. The 8in would
have been external as it looks like this
machine didn't have any room to put a
drive internalally inside the box.

As it reads the Corvus Concept could have
5, 10 or 20 megabyte Hard Disks, Optional
8" floppy. It's possible that other disk drive
options came out later as my source is 20
years old! Quite possibly other external
Disk drive options like 5 1/4" & maybe 3.5".
If no-one at least made other options for
this computer, it wouldn't have lasted very
long as 8" disks were nearly on it's way out.

> The Corvus units I saw in operation were
> typically 5 or 10MB disks connected
> through the Mac's floppy port (or fast
> serial port?) These disks were even
> networked to workgroups as a file serving
> resource. I recall they used the MFS flat file
> system. This was before the Mac Plus, and
> the consequent standardisation on SCSI
> for mass storage, of course.

Oh yeah! :-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

Terry Yager
March 13th, 2004, 02:33 PM
"qu1j0t3" wrote:

> I never saw a Corvus floppy, but I am
> sure there were 8" solutions out there.

Actually the Corvus Concept doesn't have
a floppy disk as standard. The 8in would
have been external as it looks like this
machine didn't have any room to put a
drive internalally inside the box.

As it reads the Corvus Concept could have
5, 10 or 20 megabyte Hard Disks, Optional
8" floppy. It's possible that other disk drive
options came out later as my source is 20
years old! Quite possibly other external
Disk drive options like 5 1/4" & maybe 3.5".
If no-one at least made other options for
this computer, it wouldn't have lasted very
long as 8" disks were nearly on it's way out.

> The Corvus units I saw in operation were
> typically 5 or 10MB disks connected
> through the Mac's floppy port (or fast
> serial port?) These disks were even
> networked to workgroups as a file serving
> resource. I recall they used the MFS flat file
> system. This was before the Mac Plus, and
> the consequent standardisation on SCSI
> for mass storage, of course.

Oh yeah! :-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

Another interesting option that Corvus offered was a videotape-as-mass-storage device. I don't remember what the capacity of the tape was, but it seemed to me an interesting concept, videotape being such a cheap storage medium at the time. I once-upon-a-time had a small Corvus "network" (two PCs). I also had other add-ins, like a hard drive, but not enough cabling to go around. (It was already old 'n obsolete when I picked up the various bits second-hand). I never had the videotape thinggy tho, but the documentation mentioned it.

--T

Terry Yager
March 13th, 2004, 02:41 PM
Someone told me a few years ago, that one of the reasons Lisa 1s are so scarce is because Apple offered free (or cheap?) "upgrades" to the Lisa 2 (equivalent) to owners of the Lisa 1, so naturally, most people took them up on thier offer. Anything to this rumor?

--T

Erik
March 13th, 2004, 05:00 PM
Someone told me a few years ago, that one of the reasons Lisa 1s are so scarce is because Apple offered free (or cheap?) "upgrades" to the Lisa 2 (equivalent) to owners of the Lisa 1, so naturally, most people took them up on thier offer. Anything to this rumor?

Yeah. The twiggy drives were unreliable so Apple offered a free upgrade for anyone who had purchased the original. They destroyed all of the Twiggies they got back, as well.

Some say the Twiggy Lisa 1 is as rare or rarer then an Apple I.

Erik

CP/M User
March 13th, 2004, 11:19 PM
"Erik" wrote:

>> Someone told me a few years ago, that
>> one of the reasons Lisa 1s are so scarce
>> is because Apple offered free (or cheap?)
>> "upgrades" to the Lisa 2 (equivalent) to
>> owners of the Lisa 1, so naturally, most
>> people took them up on thier offer.
>> Anything to this rumor?

> Yeah. The twiggy drives were unreliable
> so Apple offered a free upgrade for anyone
> who had purchased the original. They
> destroyed all of the Twiggies they got
> back, as well.

> Some say the Twiggy Lisa 1 is as rare or
> rarer then an Apple I.

Does this mean that the Lisa 1 is as rare as?

Or is this just the Twiggy drives?

Cheers,
CP/M User.

qu1j0t3
March 13th, 2004, 11:38 PM
the Apple Lisa 1 in my book has support for
CP/M as well

According to http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/lisa/ "There were also two variants of UNIX released for the Lisa: Unisoft's UniPlus+ (based on System V) and M$ XENIX (based on System III)." According to http://www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/guidebook/articles/thelisacomputersystem Smalltalk was ported to the Lisa, and IIRC the UCSD p-System was too.

XENIX and a lot of other Lisa software is downloadable from http://www.mmhart.com/apple_lisa_computer.htm.

As other posters mention, the Mac XL upgrade (MacWorks) was a ROM switch plus a square-pixels mod to the video circuitry. At one point it was the fastest and most capable Mac model on the market, in particular it had 1MB RAM when the largest Mac available off the shelf had 512KB. This guy http://home.xnet.com/~lisa2/MacOS.html is even running MacOS 7.5.5 on Lisa/MacWorks hardware!