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snuci
March 6th, 2019, 04:35 AM
I am not familiar with Prolog or if they had a standard 56 pin bus but can anyone tell me if this is a Prolog board? I found The Designers Guide to Programmed Logic For PLS400 Systems (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/pro-log/pls_400/The_Designers_Guide_to_Programmed_Logic_for_PLS_40 0_Systems_Aug73.pdf) on Bitsavers and this card looks like PLS-401 "Single Card System" but it doesn't specifically mention of the Intel 4008/4009 combination. This board came out of a DTC 301/S terminal/printer that the original owner discarded long ago but I would like to make it usable. I have an ME1702 that I should be able to read the Intel 1302 ROMs with. but I should be able to pop in 1702As with new code. I also have the schematics for this card. If this is a Prolog produced card, does Prolog have a standard bus? I believe the printer had 3 cards in total but this was the only card the original owner kept. looks like the whole MCS-4 chipset is on this board.

Any help is much appreciated.

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Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 06:11 AM
I don't think Prolog was making cards like this. There is, likely, no bus on the card, only I/O controls for the printer. These cards are unlikely to run the 4004 data bus off the card. The processors data bus is complicated to use.
There is little there. It shouldn't take long to trace the board out. The top right is just the clock and possibly the reset. I see no reason you can't make it do something useful. There is enough to do things with. You can add sockets to add RAM. It looks to have a socket position for another EPROM as well.
I'd be curious to see the dumps of the 1302's.
The picture isn't to clear. I'm assuming the plastic IC and the ceramic next to it are the 4008/9 pair.
I have an assembler and disassembler that I made but it isn't a separate EXE file, it loads and runs in Win32Forth ( free from the web ). You are welcome to use it. I have a simulator as well that I wrote that I've been using to figure out some code that I found. It is a listing on a pdf but the printing was quite bad. Many characters were missing the right 1/4 so that C and 0 often looked the same.
You don't need to know Forth to run it but any macros for the assembler would require some Forth coding. The simulator would of course require Forth coding to instrument the simulator with your particular hardware.
I've got the code working and I'm now creating a PCB for it ( slowly ). It is funny, the original code was suppose to take 4 seconds to generate answers but on the simulator it does it in milliseconds.
Dwight

Dwight

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 06:24 AM
It does look like an almost copy of the Prolog board. It is quite possibly a Prolog board. I don't think it was intended to run a bus like the Prolog boards they have in the document. It looks like it is the complete processor with I/O, as I said earlier.
Dwight

snuci
March 6th, 2019, 07:55 AM
It does look like an almost copy of the Prolog board. It is quite possibly a Prolog board. I don't think it was intended to run a bus like the Prolog boards they have in the document. It looks like it is the complete processor with I/O, as I said earlier.
Dwight

Thanks for the replies Dwight. I forgot to mention I have a schematic and layout in a partial Schematic for the printer. It is here: DTC 300/S Schematic and Layout (http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Data%20Terminals%20and%20Communications/DTC%20300-S%20Schematics.pdf). A larger picture of the board is here (http://vintagecomputer.ca/dtc300-s/) with additional pictures. The 4008 is ceramic white to the left of the 1302s. The 4009 is not easy to read but it's the plastic IC to the left of the 4008. This does have the pins noted so I was just curious f it was the same as Prolog and if they had a "standard" bus.

I am definitely interested in the assembler/disassembler.

Thanks,
Santo

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 08:51 AM
Thanks for the replies Dwight. I forgot to mention I have a schematic and layout in a partial Schematic for the printer. It is here: DTC 300/S Schematic and Layout (http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Data%20Terminals%20and%20Communications/DTC%20300-S%20Schematics.pdf). A larger picture of the board is here (http://vintagecomputer.ca/dtc300-s/) with additional pictures. The 4008 is ceramic white to the left of the 1302s. The 4009 is not easy to read but it's the plastic IC to the left of the 4008. This does have the pins noted so I was just curious f it was the same as Prolog and if they had a "standard" bus.

I am definitely interested in the assembler/disassembler.

Thanks,
Santo

I see from the schematic, there is no 4004 bus parts to the connector, ( that I can see ).
Be careful reading the ROMs. Only the first two are 1702 compatible. The 8316 is a 5V only part. You connect it to -10V and you'll smoke it. It is equivalent to a 2716 in data size but may need you to make an adapter for the select pins ( a couple of stacked machine pin sockets work well ).
Dwight

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 09:33 AM
It looks like you can have 2816 bytes of code ( 3 ea 1702A and 1 ea 2716 ).
You have 8 TTL outs and 4 PMOS outs.
You have 8 TTL inputs and 1 PMOS input ( test pin ).

Also note that the 1702As use -9V and not -10V. You may need to adjust for that, when using 1702As in place of the 1302s. It might be easier to use a 2716 with a pin adapter. My sim4-01 puts a diode in series with the -10V line for the 1702As.
Dwight

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 10:06 AM
Spending some time looking at the Prolog stuff. It seems the board is a slightly enhanced PLS-401. It has more ROM and more RAM but otherwise looks to have the same I/O features. It is not similar to the PLS-402 or PLS-403. I wouldn't be surprised if the same code would act the same on your board as would on a PLS-401.
Dwight

snuci
March 6th, 2019, 10:26 AM
Spending some time looking at the Prolog stuff. It seems the board is a slightly enhanced PLS-401. It has more ROM and more RAM but otherwise looks to have the same I/O features. It is not similar to the PLS-402 or PLS-403. I wouldn't be surprised if the same code would act the same on your board as would on a PLS-401.
Dwight

I was guessing it was an Proglog OEM board made for DTC. Thank you for taking the time to go through that documentation. In the meantime, I am trying to see how I can read the 8316A. Looks like you can read it as a 2716 with the pinout here (http://www.dasarodesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/EPROMUniversalAdapter.pdf).

Slob
March 6th, 2019, 12:02 PM
Nice lookin’ i4004 ya got there, I’ll give you $50USD and a plastic 4004 for it because the lid is crooked...:) Glad that you intend to get it working instead of having it sit in a display case.

I’m done with the HW of my 4004 and 4040 boards but am still pondering how to write the firmware needed. I think that I have a trustworthy assembler.

Interesting, the only 4008/4009 pair I have is one plastic, one ceramic also. My 4289’s are all ceramic.

snuci
March 6th, 2019, 01:01 PM
Nice lookin’ i4004 ya got there, I’ll give you $50USD and a plastic 4004 for it because the lid is crooked...:)

It gives it some character so I'll keep it :) I do have a P4004 for getting to the point of a running system, then I'll swap, just in case.


I’m done with the HW of my 4004 and 4040 boards but am still pondering how to write the firmware needed. I think that I have a trustworthy assembler.

Cool. Do you have a picture of the board anywhere or a page detailing your journey? I'd love to read about it. I'd like to try to keep my board and use it but I can cheat and use an MCS-4 Tester board (http://www.cpushack.com/mcs-4-test-boards-for-sale/) I have to at least put the 4004 to use and test my memory. That board appears to be expandable.


Interesting, the only 4008/4009 pair I have is one plastic, one ceramic also. My 4289’s are all ceramic.

I have seen one in white ceramic but it doesn't matter, really. If I ever found a C4009 for cheap, I'd swap it just to keep it all white but that's about it.

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 01:38 PM
I was guessing it was an Proglog OEM board made for DTC. Thank you for taking the time to go through that documentation. In the meantime, I am trying to see how I can read the 8316A. Looks like you can read it as a 2716 with the pinout here (http://www.dasarodesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/EPROMUniversalAdapter.pdf).

Do note that the CS lines are mask programmable. They look to be high in the schematic. The needed information is right in the fold that didn't get printed well. The pin connections on the chart show the CSx as being gnd but if I read the schematic, it looks like they need to be +5V, The 1702A slots would be with C8=0 and the 8316 would be with C8=1.
Do note that the wiring is quite different than a 2716. Are you using this particular reader or some other EPROM reader?
If so, you might want to go to the data sheets for each to make sure you have it pinned out correctly.
Be careful looking at things, The intel data book list addresses from A0 to A10 while the schematic list A1 to A11. I suspect that is to match the 4008 pinout labels.
You might want to trace the address lines from the 4008 to the 8316. The pins numbers are not shown in the picture as they are in the fold. The numbers that are there are for the diodes and not the device pins.
There may be some address scrambling to better align with the 1302s. Intel shows the Address to Pins:
A0 - 5
A1 - 6
A2 - 7
A3 - 8
A4 -9
A5 -10
A6 - 11
A7 - 12
A8 - 1
A9 - 2
A10 - 3

Add one to match the A1-A11 of the schematic.
Dwight

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 02:26 PM
Nice lookiní i4004 ya got there, Iíll give you $50USD and a plastic 4004 for it because the lid is crooked...:) Glad that you intend to get it working instead of having it sit in a display case.

Iím done with the HW of my 4004 and 4040 boards but am still pondering how to write the firmware needed. I think that I have a trustworthy assembler.

Interesting, the only 4008/4009 pair I have is one plastic, one ceramic also. My 4289ís are all ceramic.

Now, don't go cheating him like you were doing him a favor. Even though the gold dot, grey trace, aren't as rare as the black dot ones, it is still not anywhere near as cheap as the P4004.

I have confirmed my assembler in at least two ways that created working code. I've used it to reassemble code for the SIM4-01 programming functions. The results match the working code I had in the original EPROMs that came with my board. I've also use it to write an EPROM copy program, not just read/write code of the original.
I've also used it with my simulator ( possible that both were wrong the same way ) but it does match the operation of the complex "Maneuver Board" code that I've been debugging.
The only thing that one might no like is that forward reference labels have to be predefined ( just the name, not the address ) because it is a one pass assembler.
It is still not hard to use.
Dwight

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 05:28 PM
I was looking at the table you referred to for the 8316. I see that they show different connections for the 8216A and the 8316. The Intel catalogs show they have the exact same pinout. I'd worry a little about using either table. I'd use a 2716 setup and make my own adapter, based on the Intel catalog pinouts for the 2716 and the 8316.
Dwight

Slob
March 6th, 2019, 07:13 PM
“Now, don't go cheating him like you were doing him a favor. Even though the gold dot, grey trace, aren't as rare as the black dot ones, it is still not anywhere near as cheap as the P4004.”

I hope that everyone understands that I was just kidding! But those do go for crazy money. Somewhare I have a National Semiconductor 4004 in ceramic, which is surprisingly rare, but not necessarily that valuable.

My 4004/4040 project is waiting on three (maybe 4) items:
1. A ZIF socket so I can complete my 25V adapter for my tl866 prorammer, needed for 25v 2716’s
2. 28c16’s, so I can speed up the burn and learn process
3. Some free time
4. Some parts to make a 2708 programmer (really, a 2708 would be a little more period correct for projects like these)

Sadly, about 20 years ago I built a 2716 “promulator” that was downloadable, but I tossed/lost it. I also built a 2716 to 2708 copier that had a switch for the lower or upper half of the 2716. I’ve been looking for that...

Dwight Elvey
March 6th, 2019, 07:26 PM
I built a 2716 programmer to plug into the bus of my H89. I used a 5V to 24V module as I recall to make a boost to 29V that I regulated down to 25V. Now days you can buy a simple boast board from ebay for a few dollars.
It had a simple transistor switch.
It wouldn't take much to use something like a Blue Pill ( port B is 5V tolerant if used O.D. ). It can be run from a simple USB to 3.3V serial converter. It would be a relatively simple project.
I'm wondering if I should make the pin holes to be able to use a 4040 as well as a 4004 on my PCB. I'll get 3 boards and only use one.
Dwight

snuci
March 7th, 2019, 06:24 AM
Thanks Dwight.

I know Slob was kidding. I am aware that prices of these chips are crazy.

I have a few EPROM programmers but nothing that will do this chip. I am in the information gathering stage so I will be very careful. I already asked Martin if his ME1702A programmer will read 1302s. He has not tried but he thinks there should be no issues. I trust him and will report back. I will be very careful with the 8316A as I understand the 8316E is different so there are variations even in the same chip code. The 8316E is supposed to be closer to a 2716.

I won't be able to dig into this for a bit but I appreciate all feedback and discussion.

Dwight Elvey
March 7th, 2019, 07:37 AM
My understanding ( having worked at Intel for a while ) was that the 1302s were just 1702 dies that had some bad bits. At least I know they did that for 2716s, although, these were already packaged with EPROM lids. It wouldn't have been much to test them before putting on the quartz lid. They could then attempt to program them for the dedicated part. If they passed they lidded them. If they failed, it was only a lost package.
The one I recall that was the most interesting was the 2508 Intel sold. They were really half bad 2716s. The A10 was to be tied high or low depending on which half was bad. The part I loved about this is that when the price of 2716s was under $4, they still sold the 2508s for $32. Good marketing I guess. For designs that specified the 2508, the fellow that bought the parts was just happy to get the part.
Dwight

Dwight Elvey
March 7th, 2019, 07:49 AM
Thanks Dwight.

I know Slob was kidding. I am aware that prices of these chips are crazy.

I have a few EPROM programmers but nothing that will do this chip. I am in the information gathering stage so I will be very careful. I already asked Martin if his ME1702A programmer will read 1302s. He has not tried but he thinks there should be no issues. I trust him and will report back. I will be very careful with the 8316A as I understand the 8316E is different so there are variations even in the same chip code. The 8316E is supposed to be closer to a 2716.

I won't be able to dig into this for a bit but I appreciate all feedback and discussion.

Since you have the schematic and board, making an adapter to the 2716 is the simplest as you know the programmer can read 2716s. Just don't connect the programming voltage to anything. When I had my 2716 programmer, I'd adjust the regulator and have a switch on the side for the various 2732s and 2764s. Since then I have a programmer for them but the H89 was a major investment at the time.
Anyway, reading the 1302 is no issue on the 1702A programmer. Even if they used 1702 chips instead of 1702A. They read the same.
I was looking at my disassembler. It was written for an older Forth ( fpc a 16 bit code Forth ). I used a couple of features of fpc that are no longer the same on win32forth. I'll have to make some changes to the code. On the fpc it was easy to revector the terminal out to a file. On win32forth, it can be done but it is easier to just send to a file. I'll need to make some changes.
Dwight

Dwight

FlashCorliss
March 13th, 2019, 02:22 PM
What you have is a DTC branded, Pro-Log designed, PLS-411 (attached) card. It differs from the PLS-401 (also attached) in that you can use a 2716 in the last slot.

Pro-Log had a policy that if you bought hundreds (or thousands) of a certain card, you could manufacture that card in-house with Pro-Log's permission to save some cost. DTC did just that for their teletype terminal.

How did you come about getting this card?

Thanks,
Flash

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51685

snuci
March 15th, 2019, 02:10 PM
What you have is a DTC branded, Pro-Log designed, PLS-411 (attached) card. It differs from the PLS-401 (also attached) in that you can use a 2716 in the last slot.

Pro-Log had a policy that if you bought hundreds (or thousands) of a certain card, you could manufacture that card in-house with Pro-Log's permission to save some cost. DTC did just that for their teletype terminal.

How did you come about getting this card?


Thanks for the reply Flash. Dwight and I have been trading emails and he came up with the exact same model (PLS-411). I canít seem to open the attachments on my phone but iíll Try later on my PC. I am going to try to find any other documentation for it.

This is a CPU board that came out of a DTC300/S daisy wheel printer/terminal. The original owner saved this board plus the power supply and some other mechanical parts hoping to eventually make something of it. Sadly, no other boards were saved or the card cage. This was the best board to save though:)

Dwight Elvey
March 15th, 2019, 04:59 PM
It says the attachments are invalid. We are most interested in an edge connector list. There is a schematic in the printer manual for the board but it doesn't list the edge connector pinout,. We have disassembled the two 1302 chips but sadly the first chip has a stuck, high, bit4. I still need to get the disassembler to snuci but wanted to make a few enhancements since his data will have a blank 512 bytes between the last data of the second 1302 and the the 2K byte mask ROM. He has 1702s he can use for the first three EPROM. For the assembler, I need to makes similar changes to write out the 3 or 4 ROMs, he may decide to use. Right now it writes a single large file with no separations. We'd vary much like to see the original Prolog data. I was doing searches and found that it matched the description of the PLS-411, so assumed it would be the same. Without tracing wires I'm not sure about the two unpopulated RAM locations. It looks like to fill these would be a 4002-1 and a 4002-2.
We'd also be interested in any application data these may have been used for.
Dwight

FlashCorliss
April 2nd, 2019, 08:36 PM
Sorry for the delay. Apparently I'm not getting notifications when there is activity on this thread.

Here are the links to the photos of Pro-Log PLS-401 and PLS-411 cards with their DTC branded versions. I can ohm out the card cage if you like.

Incidentally, I am in search of a power supply for the DTC-300. Mine is inoperable at the moment. Care to sell?

https://remote.flashautomation.com/PL401.jpg
https://remote.flashautomation.com/PL411.jpg
https://remote.flashautomation.com/DTC401.jpg
https://remote.flashautomation.com/DTC411.jpg

Thanks,
Flash

FlashCorliss
April 4th, 2019, 10:28 PM
I found the edge card pinouts (for a PLS-401) if that is helpful for you.

https://remote.flashautomation.com/PL401edge.jpg

snuci
April 5th, 2019, 07:29 AM
Hi Flash,

Thanks for the reply. I don't have any other cards or the original card cage so I only have that one card. I can figure out the pinout when I get some time. I was just hoping it was standardized in some way.

For the DTC-300 power supply, I will check with the original owner if he wants to sell. I'll let you know.

Thanks.

Dwight Elvey
April 5th, 2019, 08:57 AM
Hi Flash,

Thanks for the reply. I don't have any other cards or the original card cage so I only have that one card. I can figure out the pinout when I get some time. I was just hoping it was standardized in some way.

For the DTC-300 power supply, I will check with the original owner if he wants to sell. I'll let you know.

Thanks.

I sent this to your mail. Here is the list for the edge connector:

PLS-411 pin list



1 +5V 2 +5V

3 GND 4 GND

5 -10V 6 -10V

7 OUT 2-8* 8 RAM OUT 8

9 OUT 2-2* 10 RAM OUT 4

11 OUT 2-1* 12 RAM OUT 2

13 OUT 2-4* 14 RAM OUT 1

15 OUT2 1-8* 16 CLK1

17 OUT 1-2* 18 TEST

19 OUT 1-1* 20 OUT 3-8*

21 OUT 1-4* 22 OUT 3-2*

23 OUT 0-8* 24 OUT 3-1*

25 OUT 0-2* 26 OUT 3-4*

27 OUT 0-1* 28 RST* OUT

29 OUT 0-4* 30 RST IN ( -10V )

31 IN 2-8* 32 IN 0-1*

33 IN 0-8* 34 IN 2-2*

35 IN 2-4* 36 IN 0-2*

37 IN 0-8* 38 IN 2-2*

39 40 IN 1-8*

41 42 IN 3-8*

43 44 IN 1-1*

45 46 IN 3-1*

47 48 IN 3-2*

49 50 IN 1-2*

51 52 IN 3-4*

53 54 IN 1-4*

55 56 IN CLK2


The board has no buss, to the edge connector. It is just I/Os for controlling stuff. As for supplies, most linear 12V supplies can be easily modified to 10V with the change of a resistor. If the pass transistor is getting too hot, a power resistor can be added to handle the excess heat, with a series resistor to the regulator transistor. It can be done with a parallel resistor but that has the danger of over voltage with light loads.
Do be careful with dual supplies that are +5V and +12V. Most of these can not easily separate the return leads for the +5 and +12. Some are made as two isolated supplies. This is the type you want. You can then connect the +12 lead to the return of the +5, giving you a negative rail.
There are a number of unused pins on the board's edge connector that could be use to do things like pass out more RAM output pins ( PMOS levels ) or other such things.
Dwight