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Terry Yager
March 13th, 2004, 08:46 AM
What is your favorite input device? I prefer a keyboard, myself. I hate pointy-clickey interfaces. (Move the mouse, click the mouse, move the mouse, click the mouse, etc. etc. etc.). Give me a good ol' CLI any day.

--T

Erik
March 13th, 2004, 09:17 AM
I'm a keyboard guy myself.

Actually, as discussed elsewhere, I'm a huge fan of the IBM M type keyboards.

Funny/Geeky story: I own a nice pile of these keyboards for future use. A few of my co-workers have benefitted from that inventory. Another was using the office of one of the enlightened and fell in love with the keyboard.

Since most of my stock is in storage (except the ones I actively use) we had to go on a "hunt" for a keyboard for him. We went over to Wierd Stuff Warehouse at lunch and dug through the piles of keyboards they have there. Usually you can expect at least a couple of M types to be in a bin or two. There were none on that day but we DID find a brand-new never used M type in a box. The only one in the entire place.

$5 for that makes my co-worker a pretty lucky geek!

Erik

CP/M User
March 13th, 2004, 12:59 PM
"Terry Yager" wrote:

> What is your favorite input device? I prefer a
> keyboard, myself. I hate pointy-clickey
> interfaces. (Move the mouse, click the mouse,
> move the mouse, click the mouse, etc. etc.
> etc.). Give me a good ol' CLI any day.

Well now, you're not the first one to say you hate
pointy-clickey devices like the mouse (I don't
mind it).

My favourite input device would have to be the
Joystick (being a games freak who's into CP/M!),
because you just are supposed to play a game
via the keyboard, even though I've been doing
it for so long, but really that's a weak excuse,
cause Joysticks on an IBM are a joke, one of the
biggest problems associated with this computer!

Though that leads me into saying that I also hate
Gamepads as well, because of the small level of
control you get with such a device. I noticed you
put something else alongside Joystick, which in
that case if it's Gamepad, I certainally won't pick
it in principal (because I don't like Gamepads! :-)

After the Joystick, the Keyboard would have to
come a distant second, because you need
something to type stuff on! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

CP/M User
March 13th, 2004, 01:05 PM
"CP/M User" wrote:

> My favourite input device would
> have to be the Joystick

Actually, I should point out that
my favourite Joystick would have
to be the Star Cursor. I spent $55
dollars for this back in 1989 & it's
still going (except for the fire
button on top of the stick, but the
one below it is still going, so I can
still zapp those aliens).

Most other Joystick's I've had
prior to that didn't last anytime
at all, which makes me wonder
how I ever did without one
between 1984->1989 (5 years! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

Terry Yager
March 13th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Well now, you're not the first one to say you hate
pointy-clickey devices like the mouse (I don't
mind it).

One of the things that bugs me the most is software designed in such a way that every time you need to make a choice, the button to click on is at the opposite end of the screen from the last choice made. So you end up moving the mouse way more than you should have to. Why can't software designers figger this out, and put the buttons all in the same area of the screen to minimize mouse movement? Seems simple enough to me...


My favourite input device would have to be the
Joystick (being a games freak who's into CP/M!),
because you just are supposed to play a game
via the keyboard, even though I've been doing
it for so long, but really that's a weak excuse,
cause Joysticks on an IBM are a joke, one of the
biggest problems associated with this computer!

Though that leads me into saying that I also hate
Gamepads as well, because of the small level of
control you get with such a device. I noticed you
put something else alongside Joystick, which in
that case if it's Gamepad, I certainally won't pick
it in principal (because I don't like Gamepads! :-)

Blame it on the software. I tried putting all the options on a different line, but the system said I had too many options (after allowing me to type in all those options) and wouldn't allow me to "submit" the poll, so I condensed a few of them. I just figgered a game pad was similar enough to a joystick to group them together. (I thought a lot of people would choose that one, since so many people use thier computers for gaming).


After the Joystick, the Keyboard would have to
come a distant second, because you need
something to type stuff on! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

Of course we need the keyboard, but do you actually enjoy using it?

--T

CP/M User
March 13th, 2004, 11:50 PM
"Terry Yager" wrote:

>> Well now, you're not the first one to say you hate
>> pointy-clickey devices like the mouse (I don't
>> mind it).

> One of the things that bugs me the most is software
> designed in such a way that every time you need
> to make a choice, the button to click on is at the
> "opposite" end of the screen from the last choice
> made. So you end up moving the mouse way
> more than you should have to. Why can't software
> designers figger this out, and put the buttons all
> in the same area of the screen to minimize mouse
> movement? Seems simple enough to me...

Minimize mouse movement? If everyone started
to copy each other, then more lawsuits would
result, but of course that would make you happy! ;-)

>> My favourite input device would have to be the
>> Joystick (being a games freak who's into CP/M!),
>> because you just are supposed to play a game
>> via the keyboard, even though I've been doing
>> it for so long, but really that's a weak excuse,
>> cause Joysticks on an IBM are a joke, one of the
>> biggest problems associated with this computer!

>> Though that leads me into saying that I also hate
>> Gamepads as well, because of the small level of
>> control you get with such a device. I noticed you
>> put something else alongside Joystick, which in
>> that case if it's Gamepad, I certainally won't pick
>> it in principal (because I don't like Gamepads! :-)

> Blame it on the software. I tried putting all the
> options on a different line, but the system said I
> had too many options (after allowing me to "type in"
> all those options) and wouldn't allow me to
> "submit" the poll, so I condensed a few of
> them. I just figgered a game pad was similar
> enough to a joystick to group them together. (I
> thought a lot of people would choose that one,
> since so many people use thier computers for
> gaming).

When I did some poll about using the PMs, the system
seemed to let me allow as many options as I could
have. But I didn't get any messages saying I'm out
of options! Maybe Erik can fill us in about this.

It's just a pity, because the accurate poll needs as
many options. A gamepad is simular to a Joystick,
but unfortunately I've yet to actually used one that
I've liked, but I feel that with the design of it, it's
not going to get any better.

>> After the Joystick, the Keyboard would have to
>> come a distant second, because you need
>> something to type stuff on! ;-)

> Of course we "need" the keyboard, but do
> you actually enjoy using it?

I thought I'd explain this earlier, for games
keyboard's aren't the best tool, but for typeins,
text editing, Word Processing they do what they
are supposed to do. The level of enjoyment
changes depending on what I'm doing with my
Keyboard, so for games, I feel it's not so great.

In some cases I like using a mouse. For a driving
game, this isn't such a bad device (better than a
keyboard), even though you really have to be
careful with the mouse cause driving around using
it is so sesentive.

Cheers,
CP/M User.

carlsson
March 14th, 2004, 01:42 PM
I also prefer the keyboard, but I think today it serves a different purpose than all the other devices mentioned. Although many OSes can emulate a mouse from keyboard (e.g. by holding ctrl-alt-shift and cursor keys), a graphical environment is best navigated with a point-n-click device. The thing is of course to reduce the neccessary point-n-clicking to only the actions keyboard easily can't solve.

I remember when my student friends were forced to use Emacs in X11, and insisted on using the mouse and pull-down menus to issue commands like save file, while I already was used to the keyboard shortcuts. It didn't take long before more and more of my friends were willing to learn the shortcuts too. A keyboard victory!

Barry
March 14th, 2004, 03:04 PM
For those times when you can use the mouse and don't need the keyboard, I use the mouse.

If I have to use both I let it be decided by which I use most. If the mouse is handiest I'll use it. But if it's mostly keyboard work I'll avoid the mouse.

Barry

Terry Yager
March 14th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Minimize mouse movement? If everyone started
to copy each other, then more lawsuits would
result, but of course that would make you happy! ;-)

No, actually most lawsuits don't make me happy, simply because so often "justice" isn't really served (IMHO). A few recent high-profile PC-industry lawsuits have brought me some level of satisfaction, tho. F'rinstance, the time Calderra sued Micro$oft over thier buccaneering of CP/M when the "created" DOS. I was happy with the final outcome, even tho M$ didn't actually admit any guilt, they did pay off Calderra. But, my point was that the designers of software could make thier UIs more friendly, without needing to copy each other. Take your web browser, f'rinstance. You open a page that you want to view, (that button could be anywhere on your screen) then, if the page is long, you must move your cursor all the way down to the right-hand corner of the screen to scroll the page up so you can read it. Now, when you've finished reading the page, you want to hit the "BACK" button, which is all the way up and over in the top left-hand corner of the screen. Why? (I don't know how many times a day I have to make that exagerated movement when browsing). Couldn't the back button be placed somewhere nearer to the scroll button?


When I did some poll about using the PMs, the system
seemed to let me allow as many options as I could
have. But I didn't get any messages saying I'm out
of options! Maybe Erik can fill us in about this.

It's just a pity, because the accurate poll needs as
many options. A gamepad is simular to a Joystick,
but unfortunately I've yet to actually used one that
I've liked, but I feel that with the design of it, it's
not going to get any better.

I usually have few complaints about the softeware that Erik has chosen to run this board. It seems to do the job well in most cases. This limiting of poll options, otoh, struck me as being an extremly niggardly way of conserving system resources (if that's the reason for it). I don't blame it on Erik tho, he's just using the best tool he can find to get the job done.


I thought I'd explain this earlier, for games
keyboard's aren't the best tool, but for typeins,
text editing, Word Processing they do what they
are supposed to do. The level of enjoyment
changes depending on what I'm doing with my
Keyboard, so for games, I feel it's not so great.

In some cases I like using a mouse. For a driving
game, this isn't such a bad device (better than a
keyboard), even though you really have to be
careful with the mouse cause driving around using
it is so sesentive.

Cheers,
CP/M User.

Well, keyboards weren't really intended to be gaming devices when they were invented. I'd probably have a different preference if I were more of a gamer. (For the few occaisional games I do play, the keyboard is usually totally unsuitable to the purpose).

--T

Terry Yager
March 14th, 2004, 06:47 PM
I also prefer the keyboard, but I think today it serves a different purpose than all the other devices mentioned. Although many OSes can emulate a mouse from keyboard (e.g. by holding ctrl-alt-shift and cursor keys), a graphical environment is best navigated with a point-n-click device. The thing is of course to reduce the neccessary point-n-clicking to only the actions keyboard easily can't solve.

I remember when my student friends were forced to use Emacs in X11, and insisted on using the mouse and pull-down menus to issue commands like save file, while I already was used to the keyboard shortcuts. It didn't take long before more and more of my friends were willing to learn the shortcuts too. A keyboard victory!

I'm a big believer in keyboard shortcuts over drop-down menus too, so long as they are not overly complicated. Somehow, the example you use (ctrl-alt-shift-arrow) doesn't seem to fit the bill. I can't see having to use four keys simultaneously for anything. (It's supposed to be a shortcut, remember?) I would prolly tend to refuse to use such a shortcut on principal alone. (Nothing over three fingers, like the famous salute).

--T

Terry Yager
March 20th, 2004, 10:40 PM
I'm a keyboard guy myself.

Actually, as discussed elsewhere, I'm a huge fan of the IBM M type keyboards.


Erik

Have you ever run across one of the IBM keyboards that looks just like a Model M, but without the numerical keypad? Are they also Model M kbds, of do they have another name? I've had a few of them pass thru my hands over the years. They came with IBM PS/2 Model 25 computers, I think.
Another nice thing about the Model M is that the cable is detachable, so you can use it with either (AT or PS/2) type of keyboard connector. IBM made the cables in both styles of connector. Also a nice feature is that they auto-detect whether they are plugged into an AT or an XT type box, and configure themselves accordingly. Actually, they would be pretty nice keyboards, if it weren't for that damned ckicking noise.

--T

Erik
March 21st, 2004, 09:14 AM
Have you ever run across one of the IBM keyboards that looks just like a Model M, but without the numerical keypad? Are they also Model M kbds, of do they have another name? I've had a few of them pass thru my hands over the years. They came with IBM PS/2 Model 25 computers, I think.
Another nice thing about the Model M is that the cable is detachable, so you can use it with either (AT or PS/2) type of keyboard connector. IBM made the cables in both styles of connector. Also a nice feature is that they auto-detect whether they are plugged into an AT or an XT type box, and configure themselves accordingly. Actually, they would be pretty nice keyboards, if it weren't for that damned ckicking noise.

I've seen those, mostly on eBay. I've never needed a small footprint keyboard but I should consider getting a couple in case I ever do!

The clicking noise is part of what makes the keyboard great! :)

Erik

Terry Yager
March 21st, 2004, 11:28 AM
I've seen those, mostly on eBay. I've never needed a small footprint keyboard but I should consider getting a couple in case I ever do!

The clicking noise is part of what makes the keyboard great! :)

Erik

Yeah, they can come in handy when you do need one. I have a '386 luggable made by Unified Controls Inc. where the keyboard fits into the lid which then closes over the screen, etc, for transporting. Trouble is, the lid is too small and a standard size 101 won't fit in it, so I used to use one of those IBM keyboards with it until I found another kind of keyboard with a different key layout that takes up less space. (Plastic cheapie, still clickey, but looks more authentic).

--T

Terry Yager
March 21st, 2004, 01:54 PM
Well, I just finished repairing my second-favorite input device of all time. I'm not sure which category it falls into tho. It's some sort of Austrailian mouse. It looks just like a regular mouse, except it's up-side-down! The ball is on the top, alongside the buttons. It works ok tho, if you just hold it in your hand and move the ball with your thumb. I've had to fix it about three times now, the wire has a tendancy to break right at the point where it joins the body of the mouse (the stress point). Anyways, it's working just fine now. It's great to use if I have to use a pointy-clicky system. I like it better than a right-side-up mouse.

--T

Terry Yager
March 22nd, 2004, 05:54 PM
Have you ever run across one of the IBM keyboards that looks just like a Model M, but without the numerical keypad? Are they also Model M kbds, of do they have another name?

I've seen those, mostly on eBay. I've never needed a small footprint keyboard but I should consider getting a couple in case I ever do!

The clicking noise is part of what makes the keyboard great! :)

Erik

I went into my storage locker today to get a keyboard for the "new" computer my son just finished building for my niece. When I dug out my box of keyboards, guess what I found? Yup! A Model M without the keypad. (I forgot I still had one in there). And, to answer my own question, yes it has a sticker on the back saying it's a Model M all right. Anywho, if yr interested, make me an offer...(it's about 20% smaller than a regular Model M, and who uses the keypad anyways, besides bean-counters?).

BTW, your co-pro went out in today's mail.

--T

Atari Mega St
September 3rd, 2004, 07:23 AM
I am a mouse / Joystick guy.

My first serious computer was an Atari ST.

I watched in dis believe all Pc people who did not had windows at that time. They tried to convince me, a mouse was not handy.

A year or two later I saw then standing in line for windows.

Form day one , when I learned dos, I hated it. I am glad I learned some dos and basic, but am also quit happy to almost never use it anymore.

typing C:\programfiles\fox\aliens vs predator compared to just clicking?

Hail to the gui (graphic user interface)

I like to operate a computer, with one hand under my hand , and the other on the mouse.