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View Full Version : Which *NIX is best for you?



TIML
March 18th, 2004, 02:34 PM
OK, what is your favorite and why?

BSD?
Which FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD?

GNU/Linux?
Which flavor?

GNU/HURD (GNU's not UNIX)

or A.N.Other?

And why??


.T.I.M

Terry Yager
March 18th, 2004, 09:27 PM
I just prefer Debian because it's the only "real" (official) Linux. (Almost all other Linux distros are based on Debian's microkernal, right?) Besides, you didn't mention OS-9, from Microware:

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~pruyne/os9faq.html

That was my first taste of *nix, on my ol' CoCo 3.

--T

Unknown_K
March 18th, 2004, 09:53 PM
The only Unix I ever use is Apple A/UX 3.11 on my AWS 95 server

carlsson
March 18th, 2004, 10:52 PM
I thought the kernel is developed separately and then incorporated in all the distributions (where Debian is one of those, maintained by FSF and their GNU Project). I don't think Red Hat, SuSe and the others want or can call themselves GNU/Linux, so the alternatives may be misformed.

Personally, I've been grown up on SunOS and Solaris in its various shapes, but have lately moved to Debian as most of the recent free software development seems to require GNU tools and environment found in a complete Linux distro. I've also played some with AIX and NetBSD.

It is a little unfortunate that the polls don't allow more options. I think the various commercial UNIXes like Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, Tru64, SCO etc differ more between eachother than the four mentioned Linux distributions does.

CP/M User
March 19th, 2004, 12:31 AM
"TIML" wrote:

> OK, what is your favorite and why?

> BSD?
> Which FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD?

I've seen FreeBSD which I thought had
a cute little creature on it with one of
those spike things! I've noticed it ran
on 386, 486 based systems, but I'm
not sure if it's the one to have! ;-)

> GNU/Linux?
> Which flavor?

> GNU/HURD (GNU's not UNIX)

> or A.N.Other?
> And why??

I'll probably fall into this catagory with
Minix? It's perhaps the most serious of
'nix's I've looked at, probably because
it's small & runs on XTs, 386s, whatever!

But I'm not even sure how true this OS
is to the likes of Linux or Unix!

Most of the websites I've seen related
to this OS, seem to be in area of very
serious software, so as a programmer
I'd probably have a bit of fun porting
some fun based stuff. I must admit
though that Minix is educational in that
most of the developers are at School or
college, so developing some fun stuff
might be asking for trouble! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

dongfeng
March 19th, 2004, 09:22 AM
I've been using Fedora Core lately, and it's quite good ^^

I had to use it to write a protocol for one of my assignments.

As much as I would love to use Linux, I really missed Windows XP though :lol:

Terry Yager
March 19th, 2004, 06:32 PM
I thought the kernel is developed separately and then incorporated in all the distributions (where Debian is one of those, maintained by FSF and their GNU Project). I don't think Red Hat, SuSe and the others want or can call themselves GNU/Linux, so the alternatives may be misformed.


Yeah, that's what I meant (I think?)...

--T

Terry Yager
March 19th, 2004, 06:41 PM
As much as I would love to use Linux, I really missed Windows XP though :lol:

As much as I'd love to abandon Micro$oft to thier own devices, I'm still stuck with Windose coz Linux just doesn't support all of my hardware. Most of my favorite toys are rendered usless when I run linux. (My scanner, video capture card, dvd player, cd burner, nic, sound card, etc. (all the fun stuff) don't always work under linux. I know, that's what I get for buying cheap no-name junk, but that's pretty much what I cn afford to buy).

--T

CP/M User
March 19th, 2004, 06:55 PM
"Terry Yager" wrote:

> As much as I'd love to abandon Micro$oft to
> thier own devices, I'm still stuck with
> Windose coz Linux just doesn't support all
> of my hardware. Most of my favorite toys
> are rendered usless when I run linux. (My
> scanner, video capture card, dvd player,
> cd burner, nic, sound card, etc. (all the
> fun stuff) don't always work under linux. I
> know, that's what I get for buying cheap
> no-name junk, but that's pretty much
> what I cn afford to buy).

Which is kinda like the CP/M-86 Vs. MSDOS
back in the good ol' 1983. MSDOS won out
due to the price competiveness.

Cause, if you're really desperate, you could
sell all of that stuff & buy it all over again,
just making sure that Linux Supports it! :-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

Terry Yager
March 19th, 2004, 07:34 PM
Which is kinda like the CP/M-86 Vs. MSDOS
back in the good ol' 1983. MSDOS won out
due to the price competiveness.

That was a deliberate action on the part of IBM, selling CP/M-86 for a lot more than DOS, because they owned a piece of DOS and made money off of every copy sold. They got squat for selling CP/M, so they tried to sabotage it. (Or so the rumor (legend?) goes).


Cause, if you're really desperate, you could
sell all of that stuff & buy it all over again,
just making sure that Linux Supports it! :-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

Heh, yeah...that seems to be the recomended solution, but not as simple as it seems. I'd have to also jack up my computer and drive a new one under it, as several of the above mentioned devices are built-in (laptop).

--T

CP/M User
March 19th, 2004, 09:44 PM
"Terry Yager" wrote:

> That was a deliberate action on the part of
> IBM, selling CP/M-86 for a lot more than
> DOS, because they owned a piece of DOS
> and made money off of every copy sold.
> They got squat for selling CP/M, so they
> tried to sabotage it. (Or so the rumor
> (legend?) goes).

Yes, however...

> Heh, yeah...that seems to be the
> recomended solution, but not as simple
> as it seems. I'd have to also jack up my
> computer and drive a new one under it,
> as several of the above mentioned
> devices are built-in (laptop).

...the manufacturer of that Laptop, only
uses Hardware which Windows will take
(not Linux), so they can do more deals
& make more money.

It's kinda like asking yourself, do I
support the local business because they
need it, or do I go to the best value store
because that's all I can afford (even
though the profits go overseas, because
of the cheap labour they can produce).

I thought you were condicting yourself
by saying that you got yourself a laptop
cause generally I find they cost more
money than a Desktop computer. But
something tells me, you haven't got the
space! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

carlsson
March 20th, 2004, 01:31 AM
I'll probably fall into this catagory with Minix? It's perhaps the most serious of 'nix's I've looked at, probably because it's small & runs on XTs, 386s, whatever!
There is also something called ELKS (http://elks.sourceforge.net) which is Embedded Linux Kernel Subset and supposedly will run on anything from 8088 and upwards. Not sure if it is more or less useful than Minix, but it will mount Minix file systems at least.

Terry Yager
March 20th, 2004, 07:53 AM
...the manufacturer of that Laptop, only
uses Hardware which Windows will take
(not Linux), so they can do more deals
& make more money.

The manufacturer of that laptop is some little-known company out of Boca Raton, Florida, with initials for a name. And yes, it was designed with Win 9x in mind. Actually, there is support for most of the hardware, just not all together. I can find this kernel that supports the NIC, and that kernel that supports the sound card, etc. I could probably get everything to work if I knew how to roll-my-own kernel, which I don't. The drivers are out there somewhere.


It's kinda like asking yourself, do I
support the local business because they
need it, or do I go to the best value store
because that's all I can afford (even
though the profits go overseas, because
of the cheap labour they can produce).

Actually, my peripherals are pretty much name-brand as well (Mustek, Lexmark, AST, etc).


I thought you were condicting yourself
by saying that you got yourself a laptop
cause generally I find they cost more
money than a Desktop computer. But
something tells me, you haven't got the
space! ;-)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

It's not so much a matter of space as it is personal preference. I'm just spoiled on laptops. I could have got a desktop with twice the computing power for what I paid for my Thinkpad, but I wanted a laptop. (It's only a 266MHz, and I've had it for two years now. It's paid for itself already). I paid $400.00 for it then, but I recently purchased another just like it (eBay) for $100.00, so I guess it's depreciated somewhat in 2 years. About the same time, my son bought himself a complete desktop system for about $225.00. His machine is a 750MHz and came with a 17-inch monitor. Twice the power for half the price. That same $200 today could get you a brand new 1.7GHz machine complete with Lindows OS from Walmart. Go figger...

--T

CP/M User
March 20th, 2004, 12:17 PM
"Terry Yager" wrote:

> ...I could probably get everything to work if
> I knew how to roll-my-own kernel, which I
> don't. The drivers are out there somewhere.

That's the thing with Linux, I once went to a
Linux Convention, thinking it was going to be
a lecture on this OS & once I got there, I
found out it was all just a help guide for
people getting their systems up & running with
this OS! :-(
It was slightly embarrassing for myself, cause
it certainally didn't turn out the way I read in
the paper & travelled some Ks to get there! :-(
This I thought was a turn-off from this OS,
cause they had little info for people like myself
& everyone was just there to get their Kernals
going! :-(
I left in disguist.

>> It's kinda like asking yourself, do I
>> support the local business because they
>> need it, or do I go to the best value store
>> because that's all I can afford (even
>> though the profits go overseas, because
>> of the cheap labour they can produce).

> Actually, my peripherals are pretty much
> name-brand as well (Mustek, Lexmark, AST,
> etc).

> It's not so much a matter of space as it is
> personal preference. I'm just spoiled on
> laptops. I could have got a desktop with
> twice the computing power for what I paid
> for my Thinkpad, but I wanted a laptop.
> (It's only a 266MHz, and I've had it for
> two years now. It's paid for itself already).
> I paid $400.00 for it then, but I recently
> purchased another just like it (eBay) for
> $100.00, so I guess it's depreciated
> somewhat in 2 years. About the same
> time, my son bought himself a complete
> desktop system for about $225.00. His
> machine is a 750MHz and came with a
> 17-inch monitor. Twice the power for
> half the price. That same $200 today
> could get you a brand new 1.7GHz
> machine complete with Lindows OS
> from Walmart. Go figger...

Computers don't retain their value, unless
you can think of a way to sell an Ol'
machine to a few pennies. The Jupiter Ace
is perhaps one of the few exceptions where
it could go for a bit on eBay (but Computer
Enthusiests need to know about it).

Cheers,
CP/M User.

TIML
March 23rd, 2004, 02:55 PM
CP/M User Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:17 pm

> Computers don't retain their value, unless you can think of a way to sell an Ol' machine to a few pennies.

I think they DO retain their value, just not necessarily their price!

That laptop earlier, is it made by a company thats gone all out for Linux now?

Linux early adopters: Try the new ones like Xandros, Lindows, or even Fedora Core (1or2), they now support SO much more hardware and are SO much easier to install (Debian and Gentoo not included in the easy bit).

I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised! And a good use for (moderately) old hardware!

.T.I.M

www.diggers.org for some fun!

Terry Yager
March 23rd, 2004, 04:00 PM
CP/M User Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:17 pm

> Computers don't retain their value, unless you can think of a way to sell an Ol' machine to a few pennies.

I think they DO retain their value, just not necessarily their price!

If ya hang onto 'em long enough even that comes back...and then some. I saw a $400.00 computer sell the other day for $1700.00, after about 30 years.


That laptop earlier, is it made by a company thats gone all out for Linux now?

Yes, I believe yr thinking of the same company.


Linux early adopters: Try the new ones like Xandros, Lindows, or even Fedora Core (1or2), they now support SO much more hardware and are SO much easier to install (Debian and Gentoo not included in the easy bit).

I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised! And a good use for (moderately) old hardware!


.T.I.M


I should know more about linux than I do, since I first started playing with it around 1994. I just never got very serious with it, that's all.


www.diggers.org for some fun!

Yeah, I kicked up that diggers website a few weeks ago, while searching the web for Richard Brautigan references. There is even a beatnik page somewhere, I'll see if I cn find the link fr ya.

--T

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 09:19 AM
As promised:

http://www.rooknet.com/beatpage/

--T

vic user
March 24th, 2004, 09:33 AM
Did people start using 'nik' with 'beat', after Sputnik was launched?

I was just looking at the link you posted Terry, and I see no reference to 'beatnik' just the 'beat movement' etc..

But the timing of the two are in the fifties, so does not seem to be a coincidence to me.

I was just curious if 'beatnik' would have ever been used if Sputnik had never launched.

Chris

TIML
March 24th, 2004, 12:32 PM
That Beat Generation site is very very cool. I think I found it las year when I was researching Kerouac and others. (You MUST read 'On The Road')

Herb Caen, the scribe of the City, (of San Francisco), coined the term 'beatnik' as you say after Sputnik, the Russian satellite. Alan Ginsberg called 'beatnik' "that foul word" and sent a letter to the New York Times Bok Review saying that 'beatniks' had been created by industries of mass communication which continue to brainwash man. And I think as usual, he was right!! Much like 'hippies' also created by mass media.

Enough to make you 'Howl'!!!


.T.I.M

vic user
March 24th, 2004, 12:44 PM
Cool, I had no idea, as well as the hippy thing.

I wonder where 'geek' and 'nerd' came from as well?

Chris

TIML
March 24th, 2004, 12:54 PM
I just Googlized 'geek' and 'nerd'

Nerd:
http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/nerd.html
the word "nerd" first appeared in 1950 in Dr. Seuss's If I Ran the Zoo*:

Geek:
http://www.geek.com/features/name/
Seems Mr. Alexander Barclay back in England wrote the following in 1570:
"He is a foole, a sotte, and a geke also Which choseth ... the worst [way] and most of ieoperdie [jeopardy]".

Check out the UberCool picture of the nerd there:
http://www.geek.com/features/name/


I guess I must be those to look them up!!!!


.T.I.M

vic user
March 24th, 2004, 01:18 PM
Thanks!

Terry is really good at internet searches too.

Actually, I can remember reading about internet librarians, a few years ago, where people were hired to do internet searches and compile info. Sounds like a cool job.

Chris

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 01:47 PM
Did people start using 'nik' with 'beat', after Sputnik was launched?

I was just looking at the link you posted Terry, and I see no reference to 'beatnik' just the 'beat movement' etc..

But the timing of the two are in the fifties, so does not seem to be a coincidence to me.

I was just curious if 'beatnik' would have ever been used if Sputnik had never launched.

Chris

IIRC, the term "beatnik" was usually used derogatorily by "straights". The beat folk never refered to themselves that way. (I think it's more a spinoff of the word "nutnik", but it could be vice-versa).

--T

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 02:04 PM
Thanks!

Terry is really good at internet searches too.

Actually, I can remember reading about internet librarians, a few years ago, where people were hired to do internet searches and compile info. Sounds like a cool job.

Chris

Actually, it used to be a very highly paid (although short-lived) profession, back when the Internet was young (and before). Yahoo hadn't been invented, the web was brand new, and most on-line services were subscriber-only (before AOL, before Prodigy, there was Genie, Dow Jones, The Source, and of course CompuServe). There were no convenient search tools, so you had be pretty savvy to know how to do on-line research. You had to know which databases were most likely to contain the info you sought, and know how to find and retreive that info while racking up the smallest possible bill for on-line time (which could get pretty costly pretty quick when they charged by the minute). Someone who needed information would gladly pay someone else to do the research for them, and probably save money in the long run, as opposed to trying to find the information themselves.

--T

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 02:30 PM
Cool, I had no idea, as well as the hippy thing.

I wonder where 'geek' and 'nerd' came from as well?

Chris

We (me and my friends) never used to call ourselves hippies either. We always preferred the term freak. Hippie was considered a very uncool word, if not downright insulting.

--T

TIML
March 24th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Absolutely!

Nobody admitted to being a hippie! (Unless they obviously weren't)!!!

The Diggers had the 'death of the hippie event'!

So you're one of the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros? How's the Cat?!!!

;)


From 1Freek2another!


.T.I.M

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 02:49 PM
That Beat Generation site is very very cool. I think I found it las year when I was researching Kerouac and others. (You MUST read 'On The Road')

I read On the Road With Jack Kerouac when I was still a pre-teen (several times as I recall). It was like the Bible to me, and travel was my religion. I first left home at the tender age of twelve. Had to go on the road... Hitch-hiked to Texas, stayed there about three months, then went back "home", but somehow, it was never the same after that. Travel was in my veins. I spent ten years on the road, as a hobo, then another ten as a carney before finally settling down long enough to raise a couple of kids.


Enough to make you 'Howl'!!!


.T.I.M

Yes, Ive read Alan Ginsberg, too.

--T

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 02:52 PM
Absolutely!

Nobody admitted to being a hippie! (Unless they obviously weren't)!!!

The Diggers had the 'death of the hippie event'!

So you're one of the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros? How's the Cat?!!!

;)


From 1Freek2another!


.T.I.M

Just call me Freewheelin' Frank! (Dope will get'cha thru...etc.)

--T

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 04:09 PM
I just Googlized 'geek' and 'nerd'

Nerd:
http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/nerd.html
the word "nerd" first appeared in 1950 in Dr. Seuss's If I Ran the Zoo*:

Yes, I'd read that before about Dr. Seuss.


Geek:
http://www.geek.com/features/name/
Seems Mr. Alexander Barclay back in England wrote the following in 1570:
"He is a foole, a sotte, and a geke also Which choseth ... the worst [way] and most of ieoperdie [jeopardy]".

I didn't know that geek went back that far. I really thought it originated in carny slang back in the '20s.


I guess I must be those to look them up!!!!


.T.I.M

Can you be a geek and a freek, or are they mutually exclusive?

--T

Terry Yager
March 24th, 2004, 04:15 PM
It was like the Bible to me, and travel was my religion.


Well, that's not quite accurate...actually, my religion was Zen, (wasn't it everybody's) and Alan Watts was chief among my spiritual advisors.

http://www.alanwatts.com/

--T

TIML
March 25th, 2004, 12:33 AM
I guess we're just Geek Freex!

Did you know Linux was originally going to be called 'Freax'?


You know, lately it occurs to me
What a Long Strange Trip its been.

Of course, now I have

A touch of grey.


.T.I.M

carlsson
March 25th, 2004, 03:10 AM
Actually, it used to be a very highly paid (although short-lived) profession, back when the Internet was young (and before).
There are qualified search services today too, but they are typically located in countries combining high educated labour with low wages, i.e. Sri Lanka where I know a such company is operating. It works like this:

The contractor asks a question and determines how many hours of work he wants to pay for. The workers start searching the Internet and gather all information they can find. Then they compare sources, reliability, add less searchable sources and write a report on the subject which the contractor gets.

A question can be something as simple as "who are our opponents in this market share in this country" or more complex ones like "which companies have a slogan including this word" or "how does the future look like for this product". Almost all the contractors supposedly are companies or maybe organisations, as individuals seldom would like to pay for several hours of someone elses work.

The responsible parties think it is a win-win-win situation; the contractor gets a reliable report for moderate money, the workers get better paid compared to what other jobs in the country would yield (but less than they could ask in another country) and the company of course gets their profit.

Oh well, this has very little to do with Unix.

Terry Yager
March 25th, 2004, 04:44 AM
I guess we're just Geek Freex!

Did you know Linux was originally going to be called 'Freax'?

No, I've never "hurd" that one before.


You know, lately it occurs to me
What a Long Strange Trip its been.

That used to be my anthem...musta put at least 10000 miles on that song alone.


Of course, now I have

A touch of grey.


.T.I.M

Heh! Don't we all? Well, I've said my peice, now I'll get out...

--T

kjs3
April 19th, 2004, 01:22 PM
FWIW..."geek" had an original connotation along the lines of "circus freak".

kjs3
April 19th, 2004, 01:42 PM
There is no "official" Linux distribution. There is a more-or-less "official" Linux kernel, and it lives at http://www.kernel.org.

Linux isn't a microkernel; quite the opposite. Linus hates microkernel architectures (see http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/appa.html, for example).

Linux doesn't use Debians kernel any more than it uses Debians GCC or Debians X Windows. It's the other way around.

OS-9 is Unix only in the sense that it has a Posix compatability layer and some Unixy things can be made to run on it; it's really nothing like Unix under the hood. But then, technically, you can say the same thing about Linux.

Terry Yager
April 21st, 2004, 07:30 AM
OS-9 is Unix only in the sense that it has a Posix compatability layer and some Unixy things can be made to run on it; it's really nothing like Unix under the hood. But then, technically, you can say the same thing about Linux.

Mostly, I'm impressed that they were able to get a true multi-tasking, multi-user OS to run on 8-bit hardware, with as little as 32K of memory (Level 1, IIRC). Of course, I'm not familiar with the most recent versions, like the 68K or PowerPC versions. They may be even more unix-like than the 6809 version was. OS-9 is *nix-y enough that when I did move on to (unix/xenix/linux) the transition was easy--virtually no learning curve at all.

--T

DoctorPepper
September 27th, 2004, 02:49 PM
I run Debian because I think its a high-quality Linux distro. I started with Red Hat (5.1 to be exact) several years ago, and played around with it, SuSE, Mandrake and Slackware (which I still love, BTW), then settled on Debian.

I like the fact that Debian is truly open, not "owned" by some commercial entity that could go belly-up at any time and leave me without updates. I'm also a big fan of Debian's apt-get and the repository.

I run stable on my servers and testing (Sarge right now) on my workstation. I find Debian to be very stable and powerful.

Howard

DoctorPepper
September 27th, 2004, 02:52 PM
Sorry, I meant to add that I also run Tim Mann's excellent TRS-80 emulator, Xtrs, on my Debian Linux workstation. It saves wear and tear on my Trash 80's :-)

carlsson
September 28th, 2004, 12:14 AM
Nice, someone else than me who uses the preservation argument to use emulators for the dull work and save the real thing for the glory moments.

Unknown_K
September 28th, 2004, 01:01 AM
CP/M User Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:17 pm

> Computers don't retain their value, unless you can think of a way to sell an Ol' machine to a few pennies.

I think they DO retain their value, just not necessarily their price!

That laptop earlier, is it made by a company thats gone all out for Linux now?

Linux early adopters: Try the new ones like Xandros, Lindows, or even Fedora Core (1or2), they now support SO much more hardware and are SO much easier to install (Debian and Gentoo not included in the easy bit).

I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised! And a good use for (moderately) old hardware!

.T.I.M

www.diggers.org for some fun!

The problem with older computers is that they realy only run the OS and software of their vintage well. While you can get newer software to run on older equipment the results are not exactly what you want to have.

If you want to run CP/M, DOS, Amiga, Atari, or early Windows programs you will find the older machines are a much better value then trying to run an emulater on more current and much more expensive hardware (and varying results).

While Linux is constantly changing with each new release (more bloat , easier installs, and looking more like Windows in each release) you have to ask why you want to run Linux to begin with. With the exception of office clones the software categories have not expanded much from the redhat 5 days, people buy an OS to support their software of choice not the other way around. There are no killer Linux apps out period (outside of webservers) for the average PC user.

CP/M User
April 22nd, 2005, 05:28 PM
"TIML" wrote:

> CP/M User Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:17 pm

>> Computers don't retain their value, unless you can think of a way
>> to sell an Ol' machine to a few pennies.

> I think they DO retain their value, just not necessarily their price!

To a genuine enthusiest, yes an old computer can still retain it's value. But to one of these young bucks - it's all about graphics, sound, presentation overall. Give some kid a copy of Space Invaders after they have played the latest biz & they'd more likely throw it in the bin.

> That laptop earlier, is it made by a company thats gone all out for
> Linux now?

> Linux early adopters: Try the new ones like Xandros, Lindows, or
> even Fedora Core (1or2), they now support SO much more
> hardware and are SO much easier to install (Debian and Gentoo
> not included in the easy bit).

Having so many diferent Linux varients (and I'm guessing there's even more now than when this was posted) - could mean they all need to share compatability to at least have support for a piece of software. If it didn't imagine all the variations you'd get. But then you'd have to get down to which version of that Unix variant to have software run perfectly & smoothly.

"Unknown_K" wrote:

> The problem with older computers is that they realy only run the OS
> and software of their vintage well. While you can get newer software
> to run on older equipment the results are not exactly what you want
> to have.

> If you want to run CP/M, DOS, Amiga, Atari, or early Windows
> programs you will find the older machines are a much better value
> then trying to run an emulater on more current and much more
> expensive hardware (and varying results).

The older software doesn't even expect much from a computer, which is why you get these unusable programs on your ultra fast computers - even my ol' Pentium packs a punch for them & games are generally unplayable - which require a slowdown program.

> While Linux is constantly changing with each new release (more
> bloat , easier installs, and looking more like Windows in each
> release) you have to ask why you want to run Linux to begin with.
> With the exception of office clones the software categories have
> not expanded much from the redhat 5 days, people buy an OS
> to support their software of choice not the other way around. There
> are no killer Linux apps out period (outside of webservers) for the
> average PC user.

True, on the other hand Windows is no better & plus you continuning your support for Microsoft software. There maybe many varations to the Unix OS, but Windows isn't much better. The Internet seems to be the killer for my machine because all the time new software is downloaded onto my computer, OSes change & because Microsoft had to have this automatic update stuff, it's just no good. While it's nice to have access to it, it does come with many flaws in design. It's getting to a point where I need to update my computer, though I'll bet Microsoft will change their OS soon.

CP/M User.

Unknown_K
April 22nd, 2005, 08:18 PM
If an old game was really good 20 years ago it will still be good now (most of the early 80's arcade games are still popular). Its when the game is all about graphics and not gameplay that it falls out of favor fast because graphics keep getting better but sucky gameplay does not.

CP/M User
April 23rd, 2005, 12:32 AM
"Unknown_K" wrote:

> If an old game was really good 20 years ago it will still be good
> now (most of the early 80's arcade games are still popular). Its
> when the game is all about graphics and not gameplay that it falls
> out of favor fast because graphics keep getting better but sucky
> gameplay does not.

Yes, however the only reason they are still going is because they are being updated for the modern times & they are being accepted. Space Invaders has been done countless times over, just like Tetris has been, but if I showed up with the 1987 Mirrorsoft version of Tetris, or the 1977 Taito Arcade of Space Invaders what do you think the latest generation would do with it. Sure these games are pretty safe from a historical point-of-view, but they do change to meet with the times because Society is changing.

Remember, a vintage computer is of more value to an enthusiest (than to some kid), which is what the topic of discussion was about with the good ol' games, rather than a clone of some ol' games revamped for some Windows, Linux, (Insert System here) jobbie.

CP/M User.

Unknown_K
April 23rd, 2005, 07:56 AM
MAME is used by alot of young people to play those simple arcade games. PACMAN never did get a decent upgrade over the original arcade version.

mbbrutman
April 23rd, 2005, 08:05 AM
In true retrocomputing form, I like my classics on the real hardware. Besides the old computers, I have the following in my basement:

- Williams Defender
- Williams Joust
- Atari BattleZone
- Atari Asteroids


Emulators seem to do well on games like PacMan, but these particular games never seem to come out right. Besides emulating the main CPUs of the machines and the code in the ROMs, you have to emulate the custom hardware and the timing exactly, which makes many games hard to accurately emulate.

To keep things on topic, Linux has not been ported to these machines.
:D

Terry Yager
April 23rd, 2005, 08:22 AM
I used to have BattleZone too, till it got hit by lightning one dark & stormy night...

--T

Unknown_K
April 23rd, 2005, 08:30 AM
In true retrocomputing form, I like my classics on the real hardware. Besides the old computers, I have the following in my basement:

- Williams Defender
- Williams Joust
- Atari BattleZone
- Atari Asteroids


Emulators seem to do well on games like PacMan, but these particular games never seem to come out right. Besides emulating the main CPUs of the machines and the code in the ROMs, you have to emulate the custom hardware and the timing exactly, which makes many games hard to accurately emulate.

To keep things on topic, Linux has not been ported to these machines.
:D

Those games can be emulated easily except for the multiple controls and in the case of battlezone the viewfinder you look into on the real arcade machine. Centapede without a good trackball also sucks.

Terry Yager
April 23rd, 2005, 09:38 AM
Yah, BZ used a pair of levers to steer your tank, and a fire button. I wasn't playing it at the time the lightning struck it, my brother was, and the flash of bright-white light blinded him temporarily.

--T

mbbrutman
April 23rd, 2005, 03:59 PM
These games *dont* emulate well. .. I've tried many emulators, and it's very obvious.

Defender is a two CPU machine. One CPU handles the game play, video buffer, etc. The other CPU is dedicated for sound. A good emulator has to handle the timing between them exactly. If there are buffers in the wiring that change the timing by a few clocks, you'd need to emulate that too.

Joust is even more of a nightmare. The hardware is very similar to Defender, except now you have four CPUs to deal with.

BattleZone and Asteroids seem to emulate better, but they are still not up to snuff. The hardest thing about BattleZone and Asteroids is the display - they are true vector units, so a normal raster display just doesn't look right.

The controls on these games are very simple .. just momentary contact buttons. BattleZone has the giant levers, but when it gets down to the wiring it's just contacts hitting other contacts. Not like on PC joysticks, where you can measure the resistance to find where the joystick is.

patscc
April 23rd, 2005, 05:32 PM
Just to throw in my two cents, the multi CPU setup is only one part of the problem. You're trying to write an emulator which has to deal with all the timing issues that are normally present, then you have to "fake" stuff like the acceelaration profile for the old controllers, (like the big, massive trackball centipede uses), and here's the truly horrible part, you're trying to this on something like Windows, or linux, where you really don't have much control over the amount of time your task gets, and how often it's pre-empted.

For non-Windows folks, NT and above schedule execution threads in a quanta known as "timeslice". You don't get to pick the length of it, when your timeslice espires, your thread gets yanked, another thread get's it's turn. And so on. You can request that you run at a particular priority, but it's not a guarantee. This is one of the reasons NT has not taken over the embedded RTOS world; a lot of RTOS systems are actually non-GUI linux variants. For a lot of real-time stuff, you need to be able to completely control when something happens, and game consoles definately fit in this category.

The other thing that makes writing an emulator difficult is the lack of a good timing reference in Windows.
The classic timer tick, used for multimedia, in Win3.1 was 10ms.
Win95 blew this, since it used a pre-emptive scheduler, as long as the thread wasn't in the 16-bit user or gui kernals, and now you've got around 25ms with a lot of jitter.
There's some tricks to deal with this, and actually be able to pull off a reasonabley stable 10ms tick, and a workable( within MIDI jitter) 1ms tick, if any one wants more info, pm me.

So here you are, trying to pin down the timings, when you've got the big wildcard of not being able to control when your thread executes. This is one of the reasons game consoles use dedicated processors and OS.

I think an emulator that you load in lieau of you OS would probably work best.

Heck, I just read the subject of this thread. Wasn't there a release of DOOM, or something, for Linux ? Anyone remember what it was ?

patscc
--grok

CP/M User
April 24th, 2005, 12:59 AM
"mbbrutman" wrote:

> These games *dont* emulate well. .. I've tried many emulators,
> and it's very obvious.

> Defender is a two CPU machine. One CPU handles the game play,
> video buffer, etc. The other CPU is dedicated for sound. A good
> emulator has to handle the timing between them exactly. If there
> are buffers in the wiring that change the timing by a few clocks,
> you'd need to emulate that too.

> Joust is even more of a nightmare. The hardware is very similar
> to Defender, except now you have four CPUs to deal with.

> BattleZone and Asteroids seem to emulate better, but they are still
> not up to snuff. The hardest thing about BattleZone and Asteroids is
> the display - they are true vector units, so a normal raster display
> just doesn't look right.

> The controls on these games are very simple .. just momentary
> contact buttons. BattleZone has the giant levers, but when it gets
> down to the wiring it's just contacts hitting other contacts. Not like
> on PC joysticks, where you can measure the resistance to find where
> the joystick is.

I was thinking of doing a review of my Atari 7800, but now I'm not so sure! :-(

Well Arcades always seem to have the technological advantage, cause they can do that, but it's nice to play it in the privacy of your home & for nothing! ;-)

Funnily enough, I was going to get Joust for it! ;-) I think it's quite addictive - but then I've never played the arcade to know what it's like.

But yeah, that's the message I was kinda sending with all this varation of stuff. Some isn't emulated though, just some game based on an old one with all the tweaks to make it huge & flashy!

Cheers,
CP/M User.

machine
May 3rd, 2005, 03:45 PM
I used to sell 6809 based cards for the Apple II running Microware's OS/9. It came with an assembler and lots of guys here in Sydney bought them. I sold hundreds of them.

OS/9 was robust, I never knew it to 'blow up' like Windoze so frequently does.

Xenix was sold on the Tandy Model 16 which was a nice business computer but the applications software was expensive. I used to fix the M16 and the 8" hard disks, all of 30 Mb.... !!

Unix was always fun to use, but none of them were compatible except at the command level of course.

Chris2005
August 3rd, 2005, 11:40 PM
I'll tell you which version of 'Nix is most flavorful to me. It's IRIX, cuz I want it so bad I can taste it! It's so bloody hard to find. I got 10 SGI boxes sitting up here that are just holding up the wall! Anyone got a set of cd's for sale?

Milos24
November 26th, 2005, 05:44 AM
Slackware 10.2 is the best.
2 CD's that have all you need for desktop or server.
Not very easy to install.

spencersamueldodson
December 13th, 2005, 02:28 PM
It's IRIX, cuz I want it so bad I can taste it! It's so bloody hard to find.

Yeah, IRIX is pretty sweet.

Vlad
December 13th, 2005, 03:35 PM
I use Fedora Core 4 on x64 because all of the other 64-bit distros seemed a bit twitchy. Ubuntu is nice, but they need to work on it some more. An I don't like how Ubuntu automatically gives you Gnome. I prefer KDE. At least Fedora Core and SUSE ask which one you want during installation.

-Vlad

carlsson
August 18th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Although definitely not vintage related, I must add that I've spent at least four hours trying to start the Mandriva (formerly Mandrake) installation program on my PC. The CD was burned without errors, but upon booting, random errors seem to happen. Maybe my computer is not running well. In any case, no matter which options I give to the boot prompt, it loads Linux from CD and at the end exits in a virtual TTY login. I can use it from there, but no obvious way to start/continue the installation program.

Argh.. this sounds more like a rant. The online documentation leaves a bit to be desired too, and yet they brag with being the most simple distribution to install. One CD-R is cheap, but next time I'll try something else, maybe renew my currently broken Debian installation with a fresh one. At least that one installed the last time I tried it.

So, from the results tonight, I think I know which distro is one of the least good for me, since it doesn't even boot properly. Gnnmgh.

DoctorPepper
August 18th, 2006, 07:23 PM
I used Mandrake for a couple of years, but when they declared bankrupcy (late 2002, early 2003?) I got scared and finally made the jump to Debian. I ran with Debian testing on my desktop for a couple of years or so, and then decided I liked Ubuntu better, so I switched. I think Ubuntu has more polish than vanilla Debian, and you don't have to worry about having a broken package take down your system (happened to me using both testing and unstable in Debian).

My server runs Debian stable. Nothing else will ever go on there. I know the packages are a bit stale, but it is rock-stable, and their security updates are spot-on.

I do get the urge to go back to Slackware every now and again. I still like Slack, it makes a great, stable desktop or server, but I've just got hooked on the Debian (and Ubuntu) archives.

80sFreak
August 19th, 2006, 05:54 AM
Funnily enough, I was going to get Joust for it! ;-) I think it's quite addictive - but then I've never played the arcade to know what it's like.


At a place where a good friend of mine worked had the stand-up version of Joust in their lunch room..

Cheers,

80sFreak

Chris2005
August 19th, 2006, 11:20 AM
I only sampled about 3 or 4 MAME games, Joust not being one of them (one groovy classic), and I would imagine there's really no difference between it and the real thing. Of course using a keyboard to play diminishes the experience somewhat (I guess my version of MAME is old - it won't support my USB joystick either :( ).

dreddnott
August 19th, 2006, 08:25 PM
I'm holding out for Debian's official release of Etch - I want to run an officially sanctioned stable 64-bit build of the mighty OS. Should be plenty of fun.

I have over a gig of MAME games. So much fun. I really get a kick out of how much fun the old programmers could cram into a few ROMs.

DoctorPepper
August 20th, 2006, 11:38 AM
I'm holding out for Debian's official release of Etch - I want to run an officially sanctioned stable 64-bit build of the mighty OS. Should be plenty of fun.

I'll probably backup all the files on my server, modify the apt sources file, then just "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade" from Sarge to Etch. You've just got to love Debian! ;-)



I have over a gig of MAME games. So much fun. I really get a kick out of how much fun the old programmers could cram into a few ROMs.

I haven't tried MAME yet, I've read quite a bit about it. Perhaps I'll install it on my test machine, just so I don't mess up my main workstation. Right now my priority is getting bind setup and running, so I can host a couple of domains on my local server.

kb2syd
August 21st, 2006, 06:27 AM
Microsft Xenix 3 for the Tandy 6000 is the *NIX of choice for me. After that comes the Debian varients.

dreddnott
August 21st, 2006, 07:25 AM
Dial-up is no fun...I'll have to order or download the CDs. apt-get would be painfully slow!

sbrown
August 23rd, 2006, 01:12 AM
Debian Etch should be quite nice; just dist-upgraded my Ultra2 and everything went as smooth as can be. If Etch is that far along on a minor arch... ;)

However I really want to try getting a full 64bit enviroment on it, and with the new drive I have on the way it's going to be Gentoo time!