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marmotking
November 14th, 2007, 08:02 PM
OK, a test for the truly seasoned Kaypro collector...

So I cracked open this Kaypro 2 (not II) in my "pile" of Kaypros recently acquired. Inside there's a daughter board plugged into the Z80 socket labeled, "Z80 WINIF ADAPTER". If you look closely at the photo, it appears that it's plugged into yet another daughter board before reaching the motherboard. This second board seems to be labeled, "Z80 Bus Buffer", "Delphi Development". The Oracle (i.e. Google) doesn't seem to know what a "Z80 WINIF ADAPTER" is. In looking at it, there's nothing really interesting on the board except for some standard TTL chips and an 8T31N. Anybody have any knowledge of what this setup might be? I think the 8T31N is some sort of tri-state line driver:

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/preview/506572.html

http://download.marmotking.com/img_9910_a.jpg

Any information (documentation?) would be appreciated!

Sharkonwheels
November 14th, 2007, 08:06 PM
Where's the ribbon cable lead to?

T

marmotking
November 14th, 2007, 08:10 PM
The ribbon cable just leads out the back of the machine to a Centronix style plug (but it's not a printer port, the plug is way too big).

http://download.marmotking.com/IMG_9909.jpg

I'm guessing this is some sort of generic interfacing board or something that exposes the z80 bus to some sort of external hardware which I don't have.

Sharkonwheels
November 14th, 2007, 08:22 PM
I looked in the Kaypro PROFILES magazines I have, and found nothing in the advertisers index (I have some 1983-1988 issues).

mebbe this is another $25,000 system like that nitwit on eBay?

I dunno - what's the board under the WinInf contain?


T

Sharkonwheels
November 14th, 2007, 08:27 PM
OH!

Make sure none of those puppies contain aftermarket ROM's.
maybe you lucked into one we're looking for, like TurboROM that is NOT an '84 v3.4 TurboROM.


T

marmotking
November 14th, 2007, 09:05 PM
I will check for ROMs as I inspect these things.

A quick question. I have a CP/M 2.2 boot disk that boots my Kaypro II's just fine. I have 2 Kaypro 2's (i.e. not II's) and it doesn't seem to boot either one (says, "cannot read your disk" or something to that affect). It's possible both are broken, but I wanted to make sure that a Kaypro II boot disk would boot a 2. If I remember right the II boot disk didn't boot a 10 when I tried it.

The board underneath (i.e. between the motherboard and the WINIF):

http://download.marmotking.com/IMG_9911.jpg

So nothing earth shattering on it either. The two boards seem completely unrelated and even similar in purpose perhaps.

Sharkonwheels
November 14th, 2007, 11:09 PM
I don't think a II and a 2 are similar enough to share boot disks.
my K10's (83 and 84) and K4-84 can all boot each others disks (2.2F/G/H) without issue.

Haven't tried the II, but I think it is a different, earlier mainboard.

OK, let's see what info I have squirreled away...

First was the Kaypro II, also known as the II/83:
CPU: Z80, 2.5MHz
Mainboard: 81-110 / 81-240
ROM: 81-149C / 81-232
FDD: 2 x SS/DD 5.25"
CP/M Rev: 2.2F

Next came the Kaypro 2, or 2/84:
CPU: Z80, 4.0MHz
mainboard: 81-294
ROM: 81-292A
FDD: 2 x SS/DD 5.25"
CP/M Rev: 2.2G

Next came the Kaypro NEW 2 (yeah, go figure!)
CPU: Z80, 4.0 MHz
Mainboard: 81-294
ROM: 81-478A (Universal ROM)
FDD: 2 x SS/DD 5.25" (I THINK)
CP/M Rev: 2.2u1

Kaypro 2x Specs:
CPU: Z80, 4.0MHz
Mainboard: 81-294
ROM: 81-292A
FDD: 2 x DS/DD
CP/M Rev: 2.2G

So, basically, diff between later 2's (2/84 and "New 2") and 2x is that the Kaypro 2x had DS/DD FDD's. Not sure on drives of "New 2," but might've been DS/DD, considering it had 2.2u1, meaning it was a much later unit, corresponding to the CP/M rev.

So, you COULD put DS/DD floppies in a 2/84, and they SHOULD work, seeing as how it was the SAME mainboard as the 2x, and same ROM as the 2x. I do NOT think the ORIGINAL mainboard/ROM II/83 could support DS/DD - you needed a mainboard+ROM swap to do that, and effectively turned it into either a 2x or a 4/84, depending on the mainboard that was swapped in.

Now I have notes saying that a II *MIGHT* have come with an 81-184 mainboard, and 81-242 ROM, but I think this was near-the-end parts-bin-diving, as this would've basically been a 4/84 motherboard in a II chassis, with SS/DD drives. The 81-184/81-185 mainboards are the cool ones like in the 4/84, that have power+HD+Floppy on the right side of the mainboard (looking at the front of the chassis) and may or may not have the HD header soldered in. In the right rear corner, there might be installed the modem/clock hardware, and you'd know by the transformer there, and by the battery soldered on the mainboard behind the floppy controller.


Whew!

Hope that helps some!

Incidentally, there are a few hacks to bump the mainboard RAM to 256KB, and use everything over 64K as a RAMDisk - I haven't done any yet, but plan to! There was also a 6MHz hack floating around for the 2.5MHz II/83, as well, which MIGHT be what you saw on something with a switch. One of my machines, also has a switch on the back-panel, and the wires lead to one of the UART's on the mainboard, and I have yet to figure out what it does!

Incidentally, if you have a 10/83, mainboard 81-180, with a boot rom that is *NOT* an 81-302, I'd be interested in talking to you about it. Those were obsoleted by some changes in the HD subsystem, and most aftermarket ROMs did *NOT* work in it. I need one of those machines to experiment with.


Tony

marmotking
November 15th, 2007, 09:16 AM
Wow, I had no idea that there were so many versions of motherboards and ROMs in these critters. Perhaps I'll catalog everything I have as I go through it. It seems that the "II" and the "2" don't share boot disks. I checked on the Dave's Old Computer's site for "2" boot disks. There aren't any there. Does anyone have a source for these? I'd be happy to put them on a web server if someone has images or original disks they could send me that I could image.

I'll be sure to look for a 10/83 board and boot ROM that you're seeking.

Terry Yager
November 15th, 2007, 11:13 AM
A bootdisk for the 10(84?) or 1 should work in the 2 & 2X, as I believe they all use the 'Universal' ROM. Just be sure the disk is single-sided, just in case.

Just a wild guess, but could the 'WINF' have something to do with a WINchester drive? The external cable sure makes it look possible.

--T

nige the hippy
November 15th, 2007, 11:47 AM
Oh Terry, you beat me to the Winchester Interface thing!

However it does seem a little strange sticking a z80 CPU out on a limb like that, AAH yes.... it plugs into the main cpu socket. and the cpu then plugs into the daughter board, just to steal the buses. I'm sure that the other little daughter board is just what it says it is, a Z80 bus buffer.

I'd forgotten about doing that!;)

Sharkonwheels
November 15th, 2007, 08:16 PM
A bootdisk for the 10(84?) or 1 should work in the 2 & 2X, as I believe they all use the 'Universal' ROM. Just be sure the disk is single-sided, just in case.

Just a wild guess, but could the 'WINF' have something to do with a WINchester drive? The external cable sure makes it look possible.

--T

As the list above shows, they did not. The Universal ROM is 81-478A.
It was used in:

2x w/modem+RTC 81-580 mainboard, 81-478A Universal ROM
10 w/modem+RTC (LATE 84) 81-582 mainboard, 81-478A Universal ROM
New 2 (as seen above) 81-294 mainboard, 81-478A Universal ROM
1 81-294 mainboard, 81-478A Universal ROM

I personally haven;t run across a 10+modem+rtc, also known as a K10/MTC. It actually ran CP/M 2.2u1, from what I have in my notes.

As to the CCI WINIF board being a winchester interface, that would mean that the controller itself would have to be in the external drive. Not impossible, by any means, of course. It is also common to have expansions piggy-back off the Z80, heck, even the GIDE interface does that!
The Co-Power-88/kaypro-88 does that, as do most of the aftermarket Kaypro RAMDisk boards, like the Advent I believe.


Tony

Micom 2000
November 19th, 2007, 02:34 PM
I have a II and a 2X. Never did much with them. Played more with my DEC Rainbow and RS M.2 .
Years ago, like many, I got boot disks ( can't remember for which model) off Don Maislin. He queried me for the BIOS# as he explained that different boot disks were required for each.

Hope this is revelent. I could dig thru my voluminous amount of stuff to see if he marked the BIOS and model # on the disk(s ?) if I can find them.

BTW- The 1st Compaq portable and my Zenith 161 ZFA (my favorite transportable) were much heavier than the KayPros.
I just checked. My right arm is now longer than my left. :^{

Lawrence


A bootdisk for the 10(84?) or 1 should work in the 2 & 2X, as I believe they all use the 'Universal' ROM. Just be sure the disk is single-sided, just in case.

--T

Ksarul
January 1st, 2008, 02:45 PM
Might it be for a SASI interface? I have such a bird for my TI-99/4A. The controller is in the drive for them. . . .and they used standard 5, 10, or 15 MB MFM drives with the controller cards (Western Digital made the controller boards).

Terry Yager
January 4th, 2008, 07:24 PM
Might it be for a SASI interface? I have such a bird for my TI-99/4A. The controller is in the drive for them. . . .and they used standard 5, 10, or 15 MB MFM drives with the controller cards (Western Digital made the controller boards).

Not a correction, but a clarification: While the SASI (precursor to SCSI) drives do indeed use MFM encoding, the interface is not ST-506, which many folks (mistakenly) call 'MFM', so the ST-506-compatible drives can't be hung off from a SASI interface. Hope this isn't too confusing...

--T

kb2syd
January 5th, 2008, 06:16 AM
But if you have a sasi controller and an ST-506 drive, I have a BUNCH of SASI to ST-506 adapters by Western Digital. Located in New Jersey...