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View Full Version : Kaypro GIDE Project - IDE on 4-84 / 10-83 / 10-84



Sharkonwheels
January 28th, 2008, 05:03 PM
Show of hands....how many folks would be interested in an IDE interface for the Kaypro 4/84, 10/83 and 10/84?

Desired Feature list:
Autoboot from ROM - no floppy-booting ( I would still accept FDD booting - ROM modding is not that easy!!!)
44-pin laptop and 40-pin standard IDE interfaces standard
Compact flash support for using CF instead of HD's
Replacement ROM based on Kaypro 1.9E firmware

Price goal is to be around $100-125 for the kit which would include a complete
kit for the GIDE interface, a replacement EPROM with a modified Kaypro
1.9E firmware for the 10 (should work on the 4/84 as well), and the proper
CP/M software (hopefully bootable floppy images downloadable) either downloaded or on disks.

Kits can be pre-built and tested for about an estimated $50 fee

Definitely to be supported:
Kaypro 10/83
Kaypro 10/84

Should be supported, as they had similar mainboard as the 10/84:
Kaypro 2/84
Kaypro 4/84
Kaypro 1
Kaypro "New 2"

Should work, but will test before claiming supported:
Kaypro 2x

Let me know if this piques your interest.

T

Sharkonwheels
January 28th, 2008, 09:36 PM
By the way, if it goes through, I'd like to be able to do a bundle, as well, with an HP 1.3" 20MB IDE drive. Remember the KittyHawk? Little tiny thing, about the size of a small box of stick matches?

Pre-loaded, ready to plug in, boot up, and go! 20MB is still a decent amount of space under CP/M, and twice what the Kaypro 10 came with!

Now THAT would be cool!


T

chuckcmagee
January 29th, 2008, 02:09 AM
As you know, I already have a few Kittyhawks sitting here. I have been interested in the project since day 1.

Sharkonwheels
January 30th, 2008, 10:20 AM
About as close to a HardCard as you can get, for a Kaypro, huh?

T

cfenton
February 2nd, 2008, 10:22 AM
I would definitely be interested!

Soupwizard
February 7th, 2008, 08:49 PM
I just picked up Kaypro 2 model 81-014 (2/84, I think, need to take apart and see), so I'm interested.

Sharkonwheels
February 7th, 2008, 08:52 PM
Go here:

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showpost.php?p=55494&postcount=22

To compare to my 2/84, to see if it is a 2/84

T

Soupwizard
February 8th, 2008, 09:29 PM
Go here:

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showpost.php?p=55494&postcount=22

To compare to my 2/84, to see if it is a 2/84

T

Using the photo of your board, and looking at the schematics off bitsavers, I think I have a 4/84 board minus the RTC and modem; mine has:

- Sockets but empty: U35, U36, U18, U19, U7, U12
- Soldered to board: U37, U31, U27, U28
- Soldered to board: J9 header

I take it the GIDE would connect to J9?

Edit:

And rom 81-292 with a pair of tec fb-501 SS/DD drives

Sharkonwheels
February 8th, 2008, 09:54 PM
Using the photo of your board, and looking at the schematics off bitsavers, I think I have a 4/84 board minus the RTC and modem; mine has:

- Sockets but empty: U35, U36, U18, U19, U7, U12
- Soldered to board: U37, U31, U27, U28
- Soldered to board: J9 header

I take it the GIDE would connect to J9?

Edit:

And rom 81-292 with a pair of tec fb-501 SS/DD drives

SS/SS Would make it a 2/84 - that's really the only difference between a 2/84 and a 4/84. J9 is for connecting the kaypro MFM subsystem. For the GIDE, you remove the Z80, install the GIDe in the Z80 socket, and then install the Z80 on a socket on the GIDE. in other words, it goes between the Z80 chip, and the mainboard.

T

Terry Yager
February 9th, 2008, 08:39 PM
I haven't seen you mention the K-II, which is all I have left.

--T

Sharkonwheels
February 9th, 2008, 09:59 PM
Would probably be hard to do....
4K ROM, to start with, plus it'll be the original SS mainboard.

Get a 2/84 or a 2x, which shouldn't be too much, or a 4/84 even.
As of now, we would base off the 81-302 K-10 ROM, so the II mainboard would be a SERIOUS stretch!

Don't know if it'd be worth it, T - SS drives you'd have to replace...
Being a II, the PSU is the weakest of the bunch...plus the 4K ROM issue...

T

Terry Yager
February 9th, 2008, 10:52 PM
Well, I can hope...

--T

NobodyIsHere
July 1st, 2010, 03:43 AM
Hi! I knew I'd read about this idea someplace before! Is there anyone still interested in a project like this? Just for fun last night I made a small adapter PCB design based on the interface for the N8VEM PropIO ECB to Z80 socket shim.

The design is a the small PCB that would have a 40 pin plug on a ribbon cable that plugs into the Kaypro CPU socket. The Kaypro Z80 CPU would plug into the small PCB which in turn would connect to the PropIO. Since the small PCB is a generic ECB to Z80 shim socket it *should* work just fine with a DiskIO board too. Since the Z80 is mounted on the small PCB, the ribbon cable has to be fairly short but long enough to allow mounting in the Kaypro case.

The board by itself would not be bootable however with the addition of a custom Kaypro ROM it certainly could be. The concept could provide IDE to the Kaypro much like XT-IDE did for the PC 8 bit ISA. My intent is to make the PCB as small as possible to keep costs low. It would require both a DiskIO (or PropIO) and the small adapter PCB.

If anyone is still interested please let me know. I am thinking a Kaypro using CF or uSD for storage would be very neat. I have about three of the Kaypro 10 computers and they are nice but clearly the "weakest link" in the design is the MFM hard drive. They are the most likely part to fail and I've found the HD controller is not easy to replace either.

Thoughts? Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

PS, with the DiskIO or PropIO PCBs about $20 each and the small PCB being less, with parts this design should come in *much* less than the original $100-$125 price goal. Especially using one of those CF adapter thingies so popular with the N8VEM builders. They cost about $7 each on ebay and the small size CF are very inexpensive. Also much of the development and testing of the DiskIO and PropIO has already happened on the N8VEM so I am thinking the development needed would be fairly minimal.

GADFRAN
July 1st, 2010, 05:03 PM
Shark - welcome back - where have you been - we missed you !!!

You are such a great help with our Kaypros - someone said you were "off shore" in your job I presume with the cruise line you work for.

Your project sounds good - please keep us informed - I am only into first K2 & K4 upgraded to K8 as you know.

Frank

wmmullaney
July 1st, 2010, 06:46 PM
Shark - welcome back - where have you been - we missed you !!!


That post up there was made 2 years ago, Andrew bumped it ;)

NobodyIsHere
July 2nd, 2010, 03:18 AM
Hi! True, I bumped Sharkonwheels old post because it was the original source of request for a Kaypro IDE community project. I could recall some interaction with Sharkonwheels as we joined here about the same time and have some common interests. I apologize if this confuses people but I could just barely recall there was a previous attempt at what I am proposing. I didn't realize how much time had passed though. Ironically if you check Sharkonwheels profile his last activity is fairly recent so he may have transitioned to lurker mode rather than actively participating. That's OK and I wish him well regardless.

What I'd like to do is rekindle some interest in a Kaypro community project along the lines of XT-IDE. Since much of the work has already been done and only some key pieces missing I think this is practical. However it also seems there isn't a whole lot of interest in the subject so maybe too much time has passed and the "window of opportunity" is gone. However, retrofitting legacy socketed Z80 computers with modern media like IDE CF or uSD is not an idea unique to Kaypro so maybe there other vintage Z80 based computer communities like Amstrad, MSX, or Timex-Sinclair who'd be interested.

Regardless since the ECB to Z80 socket PCB is already designed and basically ready to go my plan is to just order a few to keep in reserve in case something develops later. The testing with PropIO on the Kaypro and the SpectrVideo computer worked fine so I think the idea is basically sound for almost any socketed Z80. More testing and development is still needed before anything practical comes of it though. Kaypro seems like a logical starting point to me since they were fairly common and are still quite popular so I would think there are still active developers somewhere.

Sorry for the confusion on resurrecting the old thread. Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

GADFRAN
July 2nd, 2010, 03:34 PM
Sorry I missed that !

So where is Shark today ?

Anybody know - or is it something we should not know about - don't need the details, if not public, as long as he is ok.

Frank

z8coder
August 1st, 2010, 04:02 PM
Hi all,

I would bring out all of the address and data and signal lines that I needed and put all of that onto a printed circuit board mounted inside of tha cabinet and then run a ribbon from that to the hard drive and then make a program to run in it until an eprom upgrade could be written. 4K space doesn't scare me about a Kaypro II I've upgraded mine to 8K already so thats a breaze! and now i'm working on the Hard drive to that effect.

later all

z8coder

NobodyIsHere
August 2nd, 2010, 02:25 AM
Hi all,

I would bring out all of the address and data and signal lines that I needed and put all of that onto a printed circuit board mounted inside of tha cabinet and then run a ribbon from that to the hard drive and then make a program to run in it until an eprom upgrade could be written. 4K space doesn't scare me about a Kaypro II I've upgraded mine to 8K already so thats a breaze! and now i'm working on the Hard drive to that effect.

later all

z8coder

Hi! Yes, that is what we've done. There is a small PCB from the N8VEM project that inserts between the Kaypro motherboard and the CPU. The various bus signals are exported to a small PCB that plugs into any N8VEM peripheral board. So far, we know the PropIO (microSD, VGA, PS/2 keyboard) works and believe the DiskIO (IDE and floppy) should also work. The project needs more testing and it is awaiting more interest.

If anyone is interested in this project the hardware is basically done and available. Just contact me for PCBs and I'll set you up. The PropIO will work with just application software and one of the builders got it to work with MBASIC test program. I think it could boot strap the Kaypro but it would require a new EPROM. It is not an enormous problem but something that will take time and programming to accomplish. It is all on hold right now though pending higher priority projects.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

z8coder
August 8th, 2010, 05:30 PM
Andrew,

Thanks for the offer, but I'm screen printing my own Boards at this time (alot simpler and cheaper). I would take you up on the offer , but I'm also adding in a CD-Rom drive to this Kaypro. By the time I'm done with this Kaypro II it will be able to boot completely from Eprom and run CD-Rom and Hard Drive.

z8coder

GADFRAN
August 9th, 2010, 03:59 PM
Wow !

A lot of us Kaypro users will be interested in all of that !

Please keep us posted as much as possible.

Curious - you are new to this site but offer little of your background - please fill us in as much as you like - many will be interested
in our "new addtion" to the Kaypro users group on this site !!!

All the best !

Frank

z8coder
August 12th, 2010, 03:21 AM
Frank,

I'm a Engineer been doing that for about 25 years. retired from that now. Just getting back into this stuff for my pure pleasure now not for the Grind. I'm restoreing 6 Kaypro's right now and making severe mod's to a few of them. I don't collect them as I don't think of them as valuble in that sense, they represent to me an opertunity to expand and experiment and streatch out from old technology that was set in stone back then.
Mods to already made boards is a very good challenge for anyone looking to tinker and experiment.
I currently have about 50 of those plug in Proto boards connected to all of the signals of a Kaypro, and am in the process of making mods to the system and reprogramming the Roms so that I do not have to put a floppy in to boot!

z8coder

Sharkonwheels
September 13th, 2010, 08:56 PM
Sorry I missed that !

So where is Shark today ?

Anybody know - or is it something we should not know about - don't need the details, if not public, as long as he is ok.

Frank

Shark's been NOTORIOUSLY busy with work - sorry for the disappearing act...
We brought out the 5th largest ship in the world about 10 weeks ago, and it was 6mos of solid work before that, never mind normal support job for the other ships...

Spent about 5 straight weeks onboard (around 6/4 - 7/10) on the ship, which is a REALLY long time.

Haven't touched a computer older than about 2005-6 in about 2 years - no time, no time.

T

barythrin
September 14th, 2010, 08:22 AM
Glad to see you're still ok and around. I had wondered a few times combined with somewhat knowing your job can be dangerous so thanks for the updates :-)

saundby
September 15th, 2010, 12:33 AM
I'm still interested in something I can put in Kaypros that'll let me use IDE devices and boot off of them. I've received two highly modified Kaypros that I want to do something with, but both are "problem children" to some degree at present.

I'll expect to open a thread for each of these when I've got time to follow along with the help and work on them. Presently I'm wrapping up the details on my 8085 project's hardware, I should have time to sort out the Kaypros before the next project.

But I'd like to run IDE hard disks and CDs on them. My supply of ST506 drives in appropriate sizes for CP/M is dwindling.

NobodyIsHere
September 15th, 2010, 02:15 AM
Hi! There are N8VEM DiskIO and ECB to Z80 socket shim PCBs available if anyone would like to do some experimenting. Since the last activity on this thread I've seen another builder use the ECB to Z80 socket shim PCB to interface his educational Z80 SBC to an ECB backplane. He was using several N8VEM boards and it seemed to work fine.

A non-booting DiskIO with ECB to Z80 socket shim modification to a Kaypro would only require application level code which would probably be a good starting point. Test out the IDE interface, ATAPI, etc. There are code examples on the N8VEM wiki. A bootable solution would require an update to the Kaypro EPROM.

Certainly this is possible if anyone wants to pursue it. I haven't heard much on this recently though.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch