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Sharkonwheels
February 3rd, 2008, 07:21 PM
This mess has to be sorted out....

I have been trying to build disks for CFenton's 2/84, and mod it for kayPLUS,
and all the stuff that is out there, is a mess.

For example, there is a set out there (DDunfield's site, I think) claiming to be for a 4/84.

Fine. I image it out, boot it up, no problem - CP/M 2.2F
Do a movcpm 60 *
Save xx CPM60.COM
SYSGEN CPM60.COM

boot the disk, and what's it say? CP/M 2.2 for Kaypro IV.

of course, it did not boot properly...no surprise there.

What I'd like, is anyone who has CORRECT MEDIA, teledisk that stuff up, and let's get a proper archive going.

We REALLY need to sort this mess out. The kay10 stuff out there looks OK, and I have presently:
OSborne 1 Single and double density media
Osborne Exec original media
Genuine Kaypro IV CP/M boot disk with the proper CP/M utilities...
The Altos stuff out there seems correct, though I haven't tried a MOVCPM...most use MP/M on them, anyway...

At present, I can't make him a proper KayPLUS disk, because KayPLUS wants a 62K or smaller system, and the disks out there are 63K CP/M 2.2 I can't movcpm him a system, because what's out there is incorrect.

Anyone who has media, let me know, and I will get an archive going, at least for the stuff that I have, as I can test it, and verify that MOVCPM's actually work.

For reference, I have the following:

Kaypro 10-'83
Kaypro 10-'84
Kaypro 4-'84
Kaypro 2x
Kaypro II
Kaypro 1
Osborne 1
Osborne 1a
Osborne Exec
Altos 5

:mad1:

T

Yzzerdd
February 3rd, 2008, 07:48 PM
Well, unfortunatly, I don't have any CP/M stuff, at all. Getting a Kaypro is towards the bottom of my priorities(just above getting a proper edumacation, and below getting a real job, not just my "home business." But anyhow, when you come up with the archive, make sure to keep it on CD, and send it to people who want it. The best way you can make sure data isn't lost is to back it up, share it, and put it on reliable media.

--Ryan

cfenton
February 3rd, 2008, 08:55 PM
I really do appreciate the effort you're going to. Would the 2X disks work, given that a 2/84 is essentially a 2X with single-sided disks?

cfenton
February 3rd, 2008, 09:03 PM
Here are the files for "QP/M", which is apparently a drop-in replacement for CP/M 2.2 that uses optimized z-80 assembly. Has anyone ever used this? If it's actually faster I might be interested.

Sharkonwheels
February 3rd, 2008, 09:24 PM
Gotta have a working system first.
The problem, is that the OS utilities are not matching the boot sector.
MOVCPM, from what I understand, has a "copy" of the CCP+BIOS+BDOS within itself*, for the most part. I see this is true, because on my 4/84, I took a supposed "4/84" boot disk, and while booted under 2.2G, did a MOVCPM and SYSGEN on drive b:, and wrote the image to the boottrack on a:, and it booted up saying "Kaypro IV CP/M 2.2" so the theory is correct.

*ref: :The Soul of CP/M", page 308


T

Terry Yager
February 3rd, 2008, 10:58 PM
MOVCPM, from what I understand, has a "copy" of the CCP+BIOS+BDOS within itself*

Yes, that's why MOVCPM is not portable between different systems/models.

--T

cfenton
February 4th, 2008, 03:07 PM
whoops: http://microcodeconsulting.com/z80/qpm.htm

Sharkonwheels
February 4th, 2008, 03:23 PM
Still gonna need a working CP/M system to start with...

Your only recourse may be using a TurboROM. TurboROM utilities include it's
own movcpm-like tool, for making different size TurboROM-modified CP/M system images.

Tony

Sharkonwheels
February 4th, 2008, 10:36 PM
I gots an idea - stand back...doesn;t happen often...no telling what the consequences are...

<AHEM!>

Like some other forums I;ve been on, what about a "Downloads" forum, where we can attach .ZIP files containing images? I mean, they're not THAT big! We can make "sticky" threads, and put the images in there, and maybe any hints/tips/instructions...

Erik? Vlad? Terry?

Whatcha' think???
At LEAST for the CP/M stuff - scr3w the rest :jumping4:


T

Vlad
February 4th, 2008, 11:02 PM
Thats one for Erik :p

NobodyIsHere
February 5th, 2008, 03:18 AM
I gots an idea - stand back...doesn;t happen often...no telling what the consequences are...

<AHEM!>

Like some other forums I;ve been on, what about a "Downloads" forum, where we can attach .ZIP files containing images? I mean, they're not THAT big! We can make "sticky" threads, and put the images in there, and maybe any hints/tips/instructions...

Erik? Vlad? Terry?

Whatcha' think???
At LEAST for the CP/M stuff - scr3w the rest :jumping4:


T

Shark,
I think it is a good idea. For some of the less common machines I have restored finding boot disks and documentation has been troublesome to say the least. It usually ends up with me and a few others gathering up whatever info we can and bundling it into small caches of related data.

Setting up a user account protected Wiki would work, especially one using existing these VC forum accounts to limit the spammers. It'd be nice to have a "safe harbor" where I could dump some of this stuff for others benefit.

Case in point, the Wavemate Bullet is practically a lost platform based on what little information is available on the internet but based on help from some friends I have been able to gather some information. It would be good to have a place online I could dump this before it is lost again.

Same story for Vector Graphic, NorthStar Horizon, Zenith Z-90, etc. The NorthStar machines are better supported with Dave's site and the Yahoo group I started. The VG has its own mailing list and www.vector-archive.org which is a good start.

The bitsavers, the Majzel archives, and the Harte archives have been pretty good. Still, getting files into those archives can be a hit-or-miss proposition. I know I have sent what I thought were valuable files to the archives only to have them disappear into the "bit bucket". They are volunteer services so I am not complaining but I suspect lots of vintage computer information is lost that way.

I think it would be an easier solution to have a VC forum user account with a directory we could just dump unsorted relevant files into if that is even possible.

Thanks!

Andrew Lynch

Sharkonwheels
February 5th, 2008, 09:35 AM
Well, I know Gen Buckle (retroarchive.org) has been working his tail off on THAT site for a few years, and I've sent him snippets here and there - nothing major.

The biggest problem, is like what happened with the late Don Maslin - if it all rests with ONE person, it is doomed from the start. If we could set something up, that could be swept by archive.org, that would be great. That would mean, not too many nested directories, files not too big, etc...

I dunno - I'll pitch in whatever ideas I come up with, but I think for now, if we can make some sticky threads with disk images, that would be a good start. At least what we put in the stickies, will have been tried by us, and pass/failed by us, so newbies/new owners will be ASSURED they work, at least to a certain degree.


T

tezza
February 5th, 2008, 10:23 AM
I have DD/SS original Osborne 1 disks. I'm happy to share the disk contents for an archive but I have no idea as to how to get a disk image of them.

From reading previous posts it looks like you might already have valid copies of these disks though, yes?

Sharkonwheels
February 5th, 2008, 10:38 AM
Yes - Have have Osborne 1/1a SD and DD media, and a few extra apps, also have the full Executive original software package.


T

Terry Yager
February 5th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Count me in as favoring multiple sources of information (including whatever can be done here). Case in point, the oak.oakland.edu archives or Don M's collection as opposed to Tim Olmstead's efforts, which were multiple mirrored, so as not to be lost forever.

--T

Yzzerdd
February 5th, 2008, 02:56 PM
Don's collection was mirrored? A few people on the forums swear it was all lost forever. If it is mirrored, and still around, I would like to know. As I had brought up, multiple sources is a good idea, and I would be willing to give the original host of the stuff a DVD and some cash once a year to get a copy of it all. I would just hate to see it all be lost in the future.

--Ryan

Sharkonwheels
February 5th, 2008, 05:03 PM
No - he's saying how Don's and oak were basically lost to the bit-bucket, and Tim Omstead's was not.

Why?

Mirrored like crazy..

I almost had a tasteless moment, inadvertently.
I was going to say "mirrored to death," which would've really sucked on my part. Glad I caught that - that would've been a tad tasteless, even though inadvertent.

anyways, back to the subject, yes, we need mirroring, but at the same time, hosting bandwidth/space costs money.


T

Terry Yager
February 5th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Well, the untimely death of Don might be in poor taste, but oak is a different story, since we're not talking about a person, just a bit of data. Some time after it went down, I was able to get in touch (after much effort) with the person who claimed to have the very hard drive in his hands as we spoke by telephone. All that he could tell me was that he was not at liberty to give up the drive or it's contents due to orders from above. Apparently, Oakland U (which was physically located about 30 miles away from me at the time), would not allow anyone to even borrow the drive for copying, due to some (imaginary?) security concerns. They just wouldn't take the risk that someone might be able to use the data for some nefarious purposes. AFAIK, that hard drive is still sitting around there somewhere, waiting to be 'discovered' by some future historian or whatever...

--T

Terry Yager
February 5th, 2008, 06:20 PM
Oh yeah, the oak.oakland archives are still available thru the Wayback machine, but it requires some digging to find anything useful, as the last few dozen listings are just error messages that the board is temporarily down. Everything from about '94 on back is (was?) still available.

--T

Terry Yager
February 5th, 2008, 06:22 PM
Oh yeah, AFAIK the oak.oakland archives are still available thru the Wayback Machine, but it requires some digging to find anything useful, as the last few dozen listings are just error messages that the board is temporarily down. Everything from about '94 on back is (was?) still available.

--T

Sharkonwheels
February 5th, 2008, 06:30 PM
Echo...Echo...

:D


T

Sharkonwheels
February 5th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Hmm....Mebbe you're using something else, but web.archive.org only goes back to 1996.

Whatcha' looking at, T?


T

Terry Yager
February 5th, 2008, 07:01 PM
OK, make me work for it...

You're on your own from here...but it looks like the '94 files have been bumped, so good luck.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://oak.oakland.edu

--T

Sharkonwheels
February 5th, 2008, 07:02 PM
Say, have you checked any of the mirrors?
Like Piergiorgio Betti's at http://z80cpu.eu/mirrors/oak.oakland.edu/ ?
I wonder how complete they are?

T

Terry Yager
February 5th, 2008, 07:06 PM
No, but it's lookin' pretty good from here. Grab whatever you can before it all disappears.

--T

Micom 2000
February 7th, 2008, 05:07 PM
The P-Betti mirror site is amazing. I'm also looking forward to the Fritz Kwolkas CPM files.
I didn't even realize the download site had gone. Fortunately his Tandy m2 site is still up.
He was my hero in an earlier era of a paucity of info on all the TRS-80 sites re the model 2.

http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html

Incidentally it also provides a desciption to build a cable to write 8" disks on a 5 1/2' HD drive.

Unfortunately I was unable to find some of his other sites including one which took you on a visual tour of his home which had integrated dozens of computers into his tastefull decor.
It was inspiring.

With the price of gigabyte HDs so low I find it surprising that so many of these vintage download sites are disappearing. There seem to be many providers hosted by vintage enthusiasts. I've seen many offering to host vintage sites free. Granted there is a cost for broadband, but the traffic must be minimal, and could be supplemented if necessary by advertising should it get too active. Am I missing something here ?

Lawrence

lyates
February 14th, 2009, 10:43 PM
I'd sure like a genuine Kaypro 2X image.
Do you have an FTP site?

Thanls!
-Larry

Chuck(G)
February 15th, 2009, 09:02 AM
Yes, that's why MOVCPM is not portable between different systems/models.

Actually, if the OEM did their MOVCPM according to DRI's terms of service, it's not even compatible between systems of the same make and model--each copy is supposed to have a unique serial number. Try to run MOVCPM on a system with a different serial number and you get "Synchronization Error" and a hang.

patscc
February 15th, 2009, 10:35 AM
I actually have spare capacity & bandwidth on a web host, so if anyone is really interested in getting an organized archive of some sort going, I can probably provide the infrastructure. Anyone interested ?
The only thing I don't want is yet another file dump, like Simtel. Anything archived should have some sort of documentation attached that can be parsed by a search mechanism, and preferably some description by a VCF'er that the program( or whatever ) actually does what it's supposed to do, unlike Shark's problem with the Kaypro images.
It would be nice if you could traverse via http & ftp as well. I suppose gopher would be too much. Ideally the navigation pages should have minimalist structure, or at least a text version so that it's accessible from older browsers as well.
Aside from just mirroring the archive, I think it would make sense if a few hardcopy DVD's of the site were periodically distributed around. That way there would be a physical copy of it as well.
patscc

Lorne
February 25th, 2009, 10:09 AM
@ Sharkonwheels:

I've got original disks (working) for the Altos 5/15.

The labels on all three indicate they are for Series 5

For example:

1455

The three are:
CP/M version 2.2SO
Altos Diag. Exec. version 3.0
MP/M version 2.10SO

You want a copy?

gerrydoire
February 25th, 2009, 11:09 AM
Well, unfortunatly, I don't have any CP/M stuff, at all. Getting a Kaypro is towards the bottom of my priorities(just above getting a proper edumacation, and below getting a real job, not just my "home business." But anyhow, when you come up with the archive, make sure to keep it on CD, and send it to people who want it. The best way you can make sure data isn't lost is to back it up, share it, and put it on reliable media.

--Ryan

The AT&T Shrine needs an AT&T ICB Board, made specifically for that computer, but it also works with other PC Compatibles...

It's a full length baord that does image capturing from a RCA input, it also has RCA Output.

:D

Lohmeyer
February 26th, 2009, 09:14 PM
I actually have spare capacity & bandwidth on a web host, so if anyone is really interested in getting an organized archive of some sort going, I can probably provide the infrastructure. Anyone interested ?

Yes.

I am already archiving some stuff that apparently isn't on the net, with the plans to make it available - BUT - my intent is quality over quantity, and I'll do it in such a way that if I disappear, it'll still be available some how. With all due respect to the people over the years that build these sites and archive stuff (and these people do massively deserve our respect and thanks!), if you don't do it so as to guarantee it'll be available forever, then you aren't really helping the community. People end up depending on the site, think it's going to be there, and then it disappears. Or worse, everyone leeches the entire site (expecting it to disappear tomorrow), causing bandwidth problems and forcing the site to shut down.

It isn't good enough to just make a file repository and mirror it either. Files by themselves without an explanation of what is what and why anyone cares isn't good enough.

As you say....


The only thing I don't want is yet another file dump, like Simtel. Anything archived should have some sort of documentation attached that can be parsed by a search mechanism, and preferably some description by a VCF'er that the program( or whatever ) actually does what it's supposed to do, unlike Shark's problem with the Kaypro images.

There are lots of archives of disparate files & docs. With no descriptions, and with many duplicates, people tend to download everything they can get without concern for whether they need it. Then sites shut down due to lack of money, or because sys-ops get upset from all the leeching without any support back to the site. These servers cost real money. It could easily cost you hundreds of $ a year to run an archive site. Take http://trs-80.com for example. So much great effort put forth, but now largely inaccessible. Note, how this also creates the situation where people that contributed stuff to the site get upset when they thought that stuff would be maintained and available, but then it disappears.

My focus on collecting vintage computers is as much for other people's sake as it is my own. I'm going to spend my effort and money to archive stuff in a way that everyone can reach it, and so it won't disappear. I know, it's easy to say, and hard to do. I know exactly what I'm saying. But, I'm getting tired of all the fantastic web resources showing up and then disappearing several years later. I'm not just talking about vintage computers. I've been annoyed by this problem for years regarding all of my hobbies where I have sometimes had to beg someone to please pass the archive or ownership of a site on to someone else before it's lost, and getting no traction because the person is just burnt out and doesn't care anymore.

A perfect example is the hours and hours of time I spent helping people on a vintage motorcycle forum with questions and knowledge that nobody else knew, expecting that the archives of the forum would always be available. Then a couple years ago, the owner of the site summarily deleted all old posts without even offering to let anyone archive them. I was not happy. Disk space is so cheap now, there's no reason to delete stuff. Bandwidth is the issue now. I can't even refer back to all my old posts to answer questions anymore. I should have typed it all into web pages and linked to it from the forum.

So, here I am getting more involved in vintage computers, and this time, I am building a web site where whatever wisdom, documents, software, etc. that I offer will be on my web site, and linked from forums rather than posted in the forums (no, it's not up yet - I'm slow, but I get there eventually). And, short of getting run over by a bus tomorrow, I will make sure it is never lost - even if I have to put it in my will.

Sorry, above is a bit of a rant, and maybe a little idealistic, but if you really love vintage stuff, then you should do whatever you can to preserve it for others to see. Plus remember, we are the generation that grew up on this stuff. When we are gone, the first hand knowledge will be gone with us. Hopefully our web sites will live on.

Regards,
Mike